[R>Artist 3D] Paid Looking to up my renders

craanbery

Newbie
Feb 15, 2018
22
5
I'm a game dev who uses Daz and has a good handle on lighting, materials, etc. BUT

-- I want to take my renders to the next level, to reach games like BEING A DIK, CITY OF BROKEN DREAMERS, DELUCA FAMILY, DUAL FAMILY, TIMESTAMPS ,etc. (Realistic as possible) and will pay for lessons.
 

NoesisAndNoema

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Game Developer
Oct 3, 2017
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What are your renderings currently looking like?

Dual Family, for instance, is nothing more than just having superior sets, to begin with. There are good and bad renderings in that novel. However, the general thing you seem to enjoy about it is just the IRAY "true light" rendering.

However, without seeing what your current abilities are at, it is real difficult to see how far you may have to go. In some cases, it can be the simple fact that your own perception of your own creations, is self-belittling. (Having higher expectations than what you already produce, which may actually already be equal in quality.)
 
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NoesisAndNoema

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Oct 3, 2017
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Yes, that will also play a large factor in what is ultimately available to do, as well. (Do within a reasonable time.)

This scene was rendered in 4K, originally, with a quality of 2.00. Consuming 45 minutes to a 90% convergence. Roughly about 5000 iterations. (Honestly, the horrible refraction material shader made it take 10x longer than needed, but I liked the smoked glass table-top over the wood.) There was also a focal-blur used. AKA: Depth-of-field.

The image was then brought into paint-shop-pro and edited to disrupt the normal "perfectly perfect", rendered surfaces. I added some light and darkness patches and scores, to help make things look more "naturally disrupted". I didn't go crazy, just enough so everything didn't seem so horribly fake. Still looks a bit too fake for my taste. (I did adjust the gamma, coloring and contrast a bit too. Nothing ever renders perfectly. "Ain't got no time for all that!")

Then the image was reduced to 1920x1080, to kill 99% of the noise that remained. (It looked fine at 4K resolution, but I would have had to run it for another 45 minutes to reduce the noise to my full satisfaction or use a complex noise-filter.)

This was rendered with 2 Titan-Xp cards and 2 Titan-V cards. This scene would not have fit well in a card with only 8GB, it was pushing 10GB total, with the large textures and model geometry. That was 45 minutes with 17,920 total CUDA cores. Eg, if you only have around 2000 CUDA cores in your card, it would take you almost 9 times longer to get the same results. Roughly about 6 hours.

However, that was a lot to render, in one scene. Normally, you don't render 6 humans and don't use such a horrible "refraction" setting, as I have. Unless you are rendering an orgy inside of a fish-tank or pool.
 
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NoesisAndNoema

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Oct 3, 2017
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There is a chandelier above with about two dozen lights and side lighting from the kitchen-bar. I admit that it isn't an ideal lighting setup, but not abnormal. I was not going for an artistic shot, which normally has fake lighting. Like I said, it is too fake for my personal taste. (LOL, you can see some of the lines I painted in various places.)

As for the models, that is at the mercy of the skin creator. You should have seen how bad they looked originally. I have a post somewhere with the original models. This was a rough-edit, to make them look like they might actually be related. One thing to take into account was that these were all 3DeLight skins and materials. (I needed skins that had a vagina without pubes painted on them.) Like I said, it wasn't a sample of realism, just an example of simple results, with powerful hardware, for comparison.

The first attached image is a real old version with the shot of the chandelier, which is out of view in the other image. (All of these are old items. I just grabbed one and hit render. For the example.)

f95_evening.jpg

However, I think you may need to adjust your monitor. You edited them so they are red, almost sun-burnt. (I assume that was a result of trying to get better contrast, but there are too many lights at the table. Not too many for dinner, but too many for a deeply artistic lighting shot, which would still look "normal".)

Two rooms that are normally overly lit, are the dining-room and the kitchen. You would never get sharp contrast in those areas, especially with white or bright walls.

The second attached image, with dark walls and 4x "canister ceiling lights", would give a bit more contrast, as no-one would have bedroom lighting cranked-up like they expect in a dining-room or kitchen. (When eating or cooking.) However, when I rendered this, to test it for lighting, I use maximum lighting. Simply turning it down will create contrast. Remember, Daz uses auto-adjusting light values. Cranking-up light will force the exposure time to shorten and desaturate the whole scene in the process. However, it is great for setting-up shots, which you would later-on, manually adjust or use those fake photo-lighting tricks to create artistic shots instead of realistic shots.

At this point, I was still building the house and scenes. I had not even setup the blinds or curtains yet, or done any of the exterior work. I have more complete shots somewhere. It's been 2 years since I could get Daz to work correctly with my cards. Which they still don't, entirely.

f95_test2.jpg

One last image, simply for a generic reference to the image in the first post... It is a commonly "well lit", dining area. Edited with a rather high gamma adjustment and bloom, as most "stock photos" have been. Again, I only included it for the reference. Daz models all look like Daz models, unless they have textures literally ripped from reality and plastered onto the surfaces. However, those only look real in specific lighting as they often have burned shadows and fake details that just don't match the actual texture. But... at the right angles, it looks exactly like the photograph the materials were taken from. :)

f95dining-room.jpg
 
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craanbery

Newbie
Feb 15, 2018
22
5
What are your renderings currently looking like?

Dual Family, for instance, is nothing more than just having superior sets, to begin with. There are good and bad renderings in that novel. However, the general thing you seem to enjoy about it is just the IRAY "true light" rendering.

However, without seeing what your current abilities are at, it is real difficult to see how far you may have to go. In some cases, it can be the simple fact that your own perception of your own creations, is self-belittling. (Having higher expectations than what you already produce, which may actually already be equal in quality.)
My game is here; https://f95zone.to/threads/secret-summer-ch-2-superwriter.35119/

But you said something very interesting. What superior assets does Dual Family have?

Probably should mention what you have for a rendering rig. To make sure the time and effort you are putting forth actually will be used effectively. Like using an IGPU you can make something but each image will take days. However I would also say hop into here https://f95zone.to/threads/daz3d-art-show-us-your-dazskill.4764/ post some stuff and ask for critiques.
I have 2 GTX 1070's, 32GB RAM, Ryzen 7 something, forgetting the number at the moment.

Yes, that will also play a large factor in what is ultimately available to do, as well. (Do within a reasonable time.)

This scene was rendered in 4K, originally, with a quality of 2.00. Consuming 45 minutes to a 90% convergence. Roughly about 5000 iterations. (Honestly, the horrible refraction material shader made it take 10x longer than needed, but I liked the smoked glass table-top over the wood.) There was also a focal-blur used. AKA: Depth-of-field.

The image was then brought into paint-shop-pro and edited to disrupt the normal "perfectly perfect", rendered surfaces. I added some light and darkness patches and scores, to help make things look more "naturally disrupted". I didn't go crazy, just enough so everything didn't seem so horribly fake. Still looks a bit too fake for my taste. (I did adjust the gamma, coloring and contrast a bit too. Nothing ever renders perfectly. "Ain't got no time for all that!")

Then the image was reduced to 1920x1080, to kill 99% of the noise that remained. (It looked fine at 4K resolution, but I would have had to run it for another 45 minutes to reduce the noise to my full satisfaction or use a complex noise-filter.)

This was rendered with 2 Titan-Xp cards and 2 Titan-V cards. This scene would not have fit well in a card with only 8GB, it was pushing 10GB total, with the large textures and model geometry. That was 45 minutes with 17,920 total CUDA cores. Eg, if you only have around 2000 CUDA cores in your card, it would take you almost 9 times longer to get the same results. Roughly about 6 hours.

However, that was a lot to render, in one scene. Normally, you don't render 6 humans and don't use such a horrible "refraction" setting, as I have. Unless you are rendering an orgy inside of a fish-tank or pool.
Have you read about three point lighting? I imagine it is harder with many subjects, as they explain. But see the hands, and the girl, who are directly hit by the the light. Photoshop can get a lot more detail out of them, because they have clear "highlight" information. Bright parts + midtones + shadows.

View attachment 519358
View attachment 519359

Though, not sure how Daz manages increasing contrast on people, without touching the rest. Maybe what Mclean is talking about, the tonemapping settings.
I do know the 3p system and definitely use it, though I use HDRI when possible. How important is Photoshop to getting the best out of these renders? Or is paint pro better for visual novels?
 

Synx

Member
Jul 30, 2018
488
468
Oh, I see, that makes sense, Noesis. Thought of bringing 3p-lighting, because I only recently found out about it hah... Was also just reading this, there should be a sticky with tips like those hah... Maybe also useful for Craanberry.
3 point lightning is more used for lightning a single object not a whole scene. You wouldn't really be able to light that scene with 3 point lightning.

I would say the fake look comes more from how universal illuminated the whole room is with natural light. It 'feels' like they are in a room without a roof. That's a very common problem with most games on here; there inside renders have the same lightning as their outside renders.

Broken dreams has one of the better lightning, but that game uses a lot of nighttime and 'bad' illuminated rooms as scenery. It helps a lot in making scenes look more realistic, as the perfect skin from the models is less obvious. The darker renders somewhat hide that the models lack any imperfections.

Being a DIK doesnt have a particular good lightning set-up. It has much more detailed characters then most games, so the over lightning of his scenes are less of an issue.

Overall my advice is just to learn yourself. Look into ways to change the skinn of your characters. Look into creating realistic indoor lightning, etc.
 
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craanbery

Newbie
Feb 15, 2018
22
5
Yes, that will also play a large factor in what is ultimately available to do, as well. (Do within a reasonable time.)

This scene was rendered in 4K, originally, with a quality of 2.00. Consuming 45 minutes to a 90% convergence. Roughly about 5000 iterations. (Honestly, the horrible refraction material shader made it take 10x longer than needed, but I liked the smoked glass table-top over the wood.) There was also a focal-blur used. AKA: Depth-of-field.

The image was then brought into paint-shop-pro and edited to disrupt the normal "perfectly perfect", rendered surfaces. I added some light and darkness patches and scores, to help make things look more "naturally disrupted". I didn't go crazy, just enough so everything didn't seem so horribly fake. Still looks a bit too fake for my taste. (I did adjust the gamma, coloring and contrast a bit too. Nothing ever renders perfectly. "Ain't got no time for all that!")

Then the image was reduced to 1920x1080, to kill 99% of the noise that remained. (It looked fine at 4K resolution, but I would have had to run it for another 45 minutes to reduce the noise to my full satisfaction or use a complex noise-filter.)

This was rendered with 2 Titan-Xp cards and 2 Titan-V cards. This scene would not have fit well in a card with only 8GB, it was pushing 10GB total, with the large textures and model geometry. That was 45 minutes with 17,920 total CUDA cores. Eg, if you only have around 2000 CUDA cores in your card, it would take you almost 9 times longer to get the same results. Roughly about 6 hours.

However, that was a lot to render, in one scene. Normally, you don't render 6 humans and don't use such a horrible "refraction" setting, as I have. Unless you are rendering an orgy inside of a fish-tank or pool.
Very, very nice image, by the way. I appreciate the way you light and the attention to detail
 

craanbery

Newbie
Feb 15, 2018
22
5
3 point lightning is more used for lightning a single object not a whole scene. You wouldn't really be able to light that scene with 3 point lightning.

I would say the fake look comes more from how universal illuminated the whole room is with natural light. It 'feels' like they are in a room without a roof. That's a very common problem with most games on here; there inside renders have the same lightning as their outside renders.

Broken dreams has one of the better lightning, but that game uses a lot of nighttime and 'bad' illuminated rooms as scenery. It helps a lot in making scenes look more realistic, as the perfect skin from the models is less obvious. The darker renders somewhat hide that the models lack any imperfections.

Being a DIK doesnt have a particular good lightning set-up. It has much more detailed characters then most games, so the over lightning of his scenes are less of an issue.

Overall my advice is just to learn yourself. Look into ways to change the skinn of your characters. Look into creating realistic indoor lightning, etc.
Thank you for the Advice. What's your background on lighting? You seem to be knowledgeable
 

NoesisAndNoema

Member
Game Developer
Oct 3, 2017
282
679
SYNX, Yes, that was a "bad" setup. I actually stopped at the point where I was setting-up the lighting. In that house, in that specific render, all the lights were under one singular control. The last thing I had done was pose the models and remove unseen items. (Shoes, pants, socks, legs... All the stuff under the table.)

When I went back later, to see which scene I grabbed, I realized that I didn't even have the new kitchen or the new textured walls and floor-joints.

There is a big difference between "Artistic lighting" and "Realistic lighting". You can't have both, because "Artistic", is a modification that alters any "Realistic" result. Thus, the term, artistic. Reality is dull and lifeless, from an artistic view. Art, like "better", is 100% subjective.

Daz still has a major issue with two things...
1: There is an ambient light from "nowhere", beyond any true direct control. (As if there were an uneditable atmosphere, which actually defies reality.)
2: There are "ambient lighting controls", for materials, which actually do absolutely nothing, as expected. (An ambient surface should be, essentially, minimally reflecting ALL ambient lighting, if ANY exists, which is truly a soft form of self-illumination so the maximum darkness should never be less than that set value. Eg, at 0 the surface should be 100% black, unlit, with no direct lighting. At 100%, it should be, at the minimum, the brightness of the light-source closest to it, as if it is illuminated from refracted "fog" or "humidity" or "atmosphere". It doesn't work, but it does, but not to values you set. May have worked in 3DeLight, but they seem to have thrown that actual value out the window, favoring a global form of ambient lighting. A value that seems tied to all combined lights and can't be turned off or adjusted.)

Still easy to manipulate though.

When you see "perfect lighting", (artistic matched lighting), it is because the artist has simply setup the lights to match the painted shadows on all the textures and all the textures are correctly aligned to one another. (Like when you look at a stone road and the highlights are on the LEFT, and the lighting is on the RIGHT, it looks out of place. But, move your primary lights to the LEFT, and now it looks "perfect", unless the stone texture is upside-down itself, and the lighting should be on the right, as well as the texture being flipped.)

Many skins have shadows and highlights painted on them, as well as the horrible specular and glossy maps. Making them ONLY look correct, when the lighting matches the exact lighting which was used when they photographed the image of the model. (That is why many models only look good in the sales-page, where the lighting was setup perfectly to that same pose.) Light them from underneath, or all around, where those painted shadows should not be seen, and it just looks "wrong", artistically and in reality.

Not counting the over-sized fake "textures" (normals and bumps), which people use on skins. It is common to use an orange-peel texture to simulate skin-pores, but some use patterns that are too large and the ones that are the correct size, still look like orange-peels, not skin-pores. They also paint things like cleavage, and wrinkles, to simulate skin-folds, which is great for a body part in a specific pose, but there are almost no wrinkles in knuckles on a tense-fist. There is no under-boob "fold" or cleavage on spread or hanging boobs. Also, under-boob is brighter skin, not darker skin, because it gets no sun. They paint under-boob shadows, instead of letting the light paint the actual shadows.

All things you have to take into account, when "setting up a shot", not just for lighting. (Also, for post-work, to add realism... Unshadowing under-boob and unfolding folds that shouldn't be there, as well as adding folds that should, and highlights that should be relocated to match the actual light, instead of the original lighting they used when they photographed or painted the skin.)

There is also the "wet" look of most models. Most photographs are taken with makeup, powders and soft lighting. However, Daz artists like to make everyone glossy, like they are almost varnished. Flesh, even oily flesh, is not that glossy. Wet flesh is, to a point. It is like everyone is covered in wet oily glitter. Great for a glamour-shot, but not for anything realistic. (On the extreme, some completely kill any natural oil reflections and turn them into dull plastic or felt manikins. Actual photo references help there, as well as using multiple light sources, to make correct adjustments.)
 
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Synx

Member
Jul 30, 2018
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There is a big difference between "Artistic lighting" and "Realistic lighting". You can't have both, because "Artistic", is a modification that alters any "Realistic" result. Thus, the term, artistic. Reality is dull and lifeless, from an artistic view. Art, like "better", is 100% subjective.
Well it was more that your lightning doesn't add up in my opinion. The shadows on the cloths of the bearded male guy clearly shows that a light is coming from the top, in your case the chandelier. For the chandelier lights to cast shadows it should be at least shimmering outside, but as the light coming from outside is bright and fairly strong this isnt the case.

In my opinion the chandelier light should have been a lot weaker, or the lights from outside should be a lot weaker with both the outside light and the chandelier having a different color (artivisiol lights like in the chandelier aren't white)

I didn't know daz has an ambient light you can't turn which makes lightning set-up much harder. I don't really use daz, as I already knew blender fairly decent before trying to create stuff for an adult game.

And yeah the skin is the second reason. I'm not a fan of daz skin textures. I'm learning how to create my own skin which is a massive undertaking but hopefully worth it in the long run.
 
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NoesisAndNoema

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Game Developer
Oct 3, 2017
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Synx, here is the shot of the ceiling. There are canister lights, as well as the chandelier. Actually, I think the sunlight, if there is any in the house, is in the front.

The kitchen, dining-room and living-room are all joined, and all have those horrible canister lights. Which is part of the reason I later isolated all lighting, per room, for better control. (I built the house myself. Each of the rooms "objects", are setup as loading-groups, as well as the exterior front and back. But, at this point, in this scene, it was just the initial shell of a structure.)

f95_lights.jpg

I simply had to make sure that the camera was setup to capture everyone at the table. In the story, there are various sitting arrangements, where everyone is all home and eating. But, this isn't about me and my specific example, which was about hardware, not betterment of renders... So I am going to stop replying to further comments about the image which is unrelated to the topic, unless it is hardware specific comments.

f95_lights2.jpg

If it appeases you, this image below, is one that has the lighting a bit more adjusted, for production. Can't waste time trying to make this fake model look real. :p (This is the updated kitchen I made, with the sectional lighting controls. Ignored reality and went for a more pleasing artistic shot, without looking like it was an action-movie dramatic shot. I think she needs a bit more "shine", and a new shirt.) This took 25min to render, but I could have stopped it at 11min and been happy.

f95_kit.jpg

To her left would be the dining-room. Some of these lights, as well as the living-room and hallway and foyer lights, were also contributing to the volume of light in the dining-room scene. All the other stuff I mentioned, was behind the camera. The camera is just behind the breakfast-bar, separating the kitchen from the entrance-way and living-room. I had to crank-up the living-room lights, because where she is standing, in the kitchen, is behind the last canister light in that room. (So, a bit of unreality was required for this forced shot, since there is no actual ambient lighting, like in reality.)
 
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