Moderate tips for female PC/NCP protagonist. Along with covering porn tropes. (+Futa bonus)

[anne O'nymous]

Right, so some other discussion here along with elsewhere led me to some conversations regarding the PC/MC, whatever you wanna call em.
I'll start by saying: I am going to use the universal, status quo meanings and uses of things.

Let me present you a summary of the "universal, status quo meanings and uses" as seen in the profession:

Playable Character is a concept that apply to the game. It's the character controlled by the player and it can change from a scene to another. Unless they double as Protagonist or Main Character, they are generally purely blank characters. If they are intended to have some generic lines as reaction to something, they need a bit of personality.
Main Character is a concept that apply to the story. It's the character around which the story is centered. It's from this character that everything starts, and also this character that define the goal of the story. They need to have a past, but shouldn't have a too deeply defined personality if they are intended to double as Playable Character ; else it will be hard for the player to self insert in their shoes.
Protagonist is a concept that apply to both. Is a protagonist any character that will have an effective impact in the story. They need to have a past and a deeply defined personality, even when they sometimes double as Playable Character.
Background Character is a concept that apply the game. They are fillers and the player isn't supposed to interact with them. They are sometimes used a quest givers, but it's a trend from the past. They don't need a past, but should have some kind of quickly defined personality.

So, for starters: What is the difference on a protagonist NPC and a PC?
A PC in general, has some sort of personality, goals, and needs. They interact with the world around them.
An NPC does not. They are often cardboard cutouts, no needs, goals or anything.

Oh... so it will really be one of those, "I've played many games and let me tell you how they should be made to please me" thread. Well, I'll not go further then.

 

[Kattlarv]

I don't know what you are going on about. You basically explained the concept that porn is mainly targeted towards males in some hyperbolic manner. You also made up a bunch of definitions that pretty much no one would agree on. NPCs are non-playable characters. It already has a meaning.

It's factual observations.
And yes, "NPC" has a meaning. But as I explained: It IS also a role given to the so called "protagonist".
We have no official title for "fake protagonists" or whatever you want to call them.
And like we've seen in the history of ALL porn games: Never, have we had a single male PC, that follows the rules of the "NPC protagonist". No-one would accept that as a "real" male PC.
And everyone already agrees on them. Perhaps they don't admit it openly. But you'd have to look VERY hard to find a single example that breaks them.

female domination - 1248 games.
male domination - 1275 games.

Female domination is the dream of weak losers, and it is one of the most popular fetishes here. Fortunately, in real life, girls despise such pathetic nerds, and their boyfriends beat them up.

As others pointed out: It's EXTREMELY inaccurate. As they take any remotely vague "female leads the sex scene" as "femdom".
A game with 500 maledom scenes, and 1 scene where the girl gives a handjob? Femdom.
To find a "femdom" game that actually is "femdom", you're gonna have to bend over backwards.
It's like when I asked a certain fandom to present me a SINGLE comic where the girl came, and the guy didn't. And, out of ~7000 comics. They found ONE. And acted as if that was some kind of checkmate...

Try again once more:
Rignetta's Adventure
Alien Quest Eve
Karryn's Prison
DOL
Captivity

And those are just some of the female games. Not a huge fan of male protag games.

DOL has the option to be male. And, it has more scenes and choices than if you play female. (But, it DOES actually try. Unlike most other games in that genre. So, I give it big props for that.)

Oh... so it will really be one of those, "I've played many games and let me tell you how they should be made to please me" thread. Well, I'll not go further then.

Yes, most people are aware what the buzz words mean. But words only have meaning if people stick to them. Which, has been objectively proven over and over and over: People do not.
A good example being "iconic". And the subsequent "Ubisoft iconic". People calling a thing X, doesn't make that an X.
Even by your own definitions: A LOT of porn game characters, fail one, many or all of the listed definitions.
I picked the words to use, as it would be easy enough to tag along without whipping out the dictionary, or having to invent new words for things we have no words for. It's meant as a moderate length introspective thing.

And quite the opposite, actually. It's more of a "This is how people tell you how you HAVE to make game, in order to please them.". It's in the similar vein of when people break down AAA FPS games. And mention what they HAVE to include to appease the shareholders. And all the dumb shit they shoehorn in there. (And the not-dumb shit.)

I have talked to, and coached many gave devs (and artists) that have had a "Wait, I don't HAVE to add X?" moment.
I'm not saying people HAVE to do the opposite. Just trying to point out common archetypes, tropes and the expectations. As, like mentioned: You don't see games that break them. And most devs would NEVER want to break them. As that's "not cool".
To give a very simple example: Take the MLP fandom. Back in the day, if you drew a pony with a human dick. You were excommunicated. You were BANNED from the booru and all related sites. No quarter. Then, after some MLP drama regarding horsepussy. You COULD draw ponies with human dick. But you were treated as trash. And today, that's kinda where both furries and MLP is. It's not a "law" that you can't draw human dong. But both fandoms WILL side-eye you.

AND: That applies to porn games, on this very site in a similar manner.
For example: How many games have you played where the centaur/werewolf or other monster male enemies, had small, human dicks? I'm going off a strong limb and guessing: 0.
It's viewed as a "duh" that you give non-human males, impressive, non-human dicks. It's a given. EVERYONE expects it. It's deeply rooted and ingrained into all porn.
But, if we go over to monster girls? ... Crickets. There's 0 expectation when it comes to non-males. (Which, to refer to the bonus again: But ALL of those expectations, personality, anatomy and etc, ARE applied if a female character is changed to futa. Instant 180.)

Being aware of how people treat things. Isn't a "do as I say".
I've had great success informing artists and devs about these elsewhere.
So, I thought to give it a shot here too. I am aware I am not the best at walls of text.
Hence the "grain of salt". Not everything is as black and white to everyone. A lot of people need that push to be told what they can, or don't have to do.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Yes, most people are aware what the buzz words mean. But words only have meaning if people stick to them. Which, has been objectively proven over and over and over: People do not.

And your answer to this is to give yet another totally unrelated definition.
You are the one who decided to explain to game authors how they should build their story in order to get them right. The least you can do is to stick to the meaning as used in the profession. It would not necessarily make your argumentation more true, but at least it would give it some credibility. You would then show that you know at least a bit about what you pretend to teach ; what in fact you haven't done, there's no teaching value in what you wrote.

Even by your own definitions: A LOT of porn game characters, fail one, many or all of the listed definitions.

What isn't surprising when you know that they are wrote by amateurs who never did this before, and even less studied about story/game writing. What is one more reason to not invent yet another meaning to the main concepts that will be the base of their game.

To give a very simple example: Take the MLP fandom. Back in the day, if you drew a pony with a human dick. You were excommunicated. [...]

What the fuck did this do on a thread where you pretend to teach authors how they should write their characters ?
While the writing style can effectively respond to a trend, it's not the case for the story building rules. You've never seen, and will never see, an author telling you that your story will not be drastically damaged by blank protagonists. This simply because it's the opposite, there's more than two millennium of literature to back up this claim. And yes, this also apply to adult/porn games.
Of course, if you limits to pure fuck feast, having no more desire than chaining sex scenes after sex scenes, you can do whatever you want. But there's no story behind this kind of games, and therefore no protagonists. Anyway, they don't represent the majority of games available on the scene.

For example: How many games have you played where the centaur/werewolf or other monster male enemies, had small, human dicks? I'm going off a strong limb and guessing: 0.

From memory, at least three. But it was in the 90's, so I'll not be able to remember their name without firstly finding back the CDs.
But once again, what this have to do with the way protagonists should be built ?

It's viewed as a "duh" that you give non-human males, impressive, non-human dicks. It's a given. EVERYONE expects it. It's deeply rooted and ingrained into all porn.

You clearly missed a lot of complaints, as well as everything that was made before the last ten years.

Being aware of how people treat things. Isn't a "do as I say".

But wrongly believing that people treat things the same way than you is. Especially when this lead to turning the scene into something that it isn't.

When you look at previous hits, one of the most remembered game is Dreams of Desire, a story with flaws, but where protagonists have a clearly defined personality, as well as a strong background ; especially the youngest sister. This while the most frown at is Big Brother, where the girls are nothing more than dolls to play with. Talking about stories with flaws, on a more recent note there's WVM where, despite them all having the same "teenager in love" personality, each one of the, way too many, girls have her own, detailed and unique, past. And, even more successful, there's obviously Acting Lessons, where the protagonists are far to be cum dummies ; and we are talking here about DrPinkCake, who's on the top five of Patreon's adult game creators, so "successful" is not just a way to speak.

In the end, it's just a fact, to have a chance to be successful, authors on the scene have to goes against what you claim to be the "VERY strict rules" that stand at the core of what they are doing.

I've had great success informing artists and devs about these elsewhere.

And accordingly to what you said so far, they probably would have had more success themselves by not listening.

 

[pagain2345]

This is one of the most interesting forum posts I've seen. Wasn't expecting to actually learn something by browsing this site but life has many surprises.

P.S everything stated in the OP corresponds pretty well with my personal (although limited) experience with porn games

 

[Kattlarv]

And your answer to this is to give yet another totally unrelated definition.
You are the one who decided to explain to game authors how they should build their story in order to get them right. The least you can do is to stick to the meaning as used in the profession. It would not necessarily make your argumentation more true, but at least it would give it some credibility. You would then show that you know at least a bit about what you pretend to teach ; what in fact you haven't done, there's no teaching value in what you wrote.

What isn't surprising when you know that they are wrote by amateurs who never did this before, and even less studied about story/game writing. What is one more reason to not invent yet another meaning to the main concepts that will be the base of their game.

What the fuck did this do on a thread where you pretend to teach authors how they should write their characters ?
While the writing style can effectively respond to a trend, it's not the case for the story building rules. You've never seen, and will never see, an author telling you that your story will not be drastically damaged by blank protagonists. This simply because it's the opposite, there's more than two millennium of literature to back up this claim. And yes, this also apply to adult/porn games.
Of course, if you limits to pure fuck feast, having no more desire than chaining sex scenes after sex scenes, you can do whatever you want. But there's no story behind this kind of games, and therefore no protagonists. Anyway, they don't represent the majority of games available on the scene.

From memory, at least three. But it was in the 90's, so I'll not be able to remember their name without firstly finding back the CDs.
But once again, what this have to do with the way protagonists should be built ?

You clearly missed a lot of complaints, as well as everything that was made before the last ten years.

But wrongly believing that people treat things the same way than you is. Especially when this lead to turning the scene into something that it isn't.

When you look at previous hits, one of the most remembered game is Dreams of Desire, a story with flaws, but where protagonists have a clearly defined personality, as well as a strong background ; especially the youngest sister. This while the most frown at is Big Brother, where the girls are nothing more than dolls to play with. Talking about stories with flaws, on a more recent note there's WVM where, despite them all having the same "teenager in love" personality, each one of the, way too many, girls have her own, detailed and unique, past. And, even more successful, there's obviously Acting Lessons, where the protagonists are far to be cum dummies ; and we are talking here about DrPinkCake, who's on the top five of Patreon's adult game creators, so "successful" is not just a way to speak.

In the end, it's just a fact, to have a chance to be successful, authors on the scene have to goes against what you claim to be the "VERY strict rules" that stand at the core of what they are doing.

And accordingly to what you said so far, they probably would have had more success themselves by not listening.

1: Again, now "HOW", but a "this is how it's USUALLY done".
Ie: "Most FPS games have chest hide walls. That you regenerate health behind."
I didn't say "You can NEVER have chest hide walls or regenerate hp in FPS games!"
It's literally just porn archetypes, that most games follow blindly, "because that's how it's always done".
Again: A LOT of devs aren't even aware they are enforcing them. Just like how the screen scrolls to the right. You go right. That's just how its always been. I'm not saying that going left is superior. But that people CAN do it, if they want.

2: And again: You can tell someone "THIS is a protagonist". And list all the qualities. And, [insert Patric spongebob meme here]. But if you give a male character the "Female NPC" role. Everyone would REFUSE to accept that that guy is a protagonist. As, "He doesn't fit the role".
This is an ongoing issue on MANY sites. You can literally have a black and white, word by word definition of something. And you WILL have some guy go "I disagree." and go against it. Like with tagging. (Hentaifoundry is a perfect clusterfuck of this.)
F95 has its own issues with that. People look at the rules when it comes to keywords and tagging. Go "I disagree." and adds it anyhow. You repeating "This is what it actually means" does very little. I'm just trying to dumb it down, without having to go "Ackshually!".

3: Again: How they COULD. Not how they SHOULD.
At its core. This is a simplified "You might not have noticed you are doing this in your porn".
As for the "damaged by blank protag". Let's take the "High Tail Hall" type of games. You're a dude. With a dick. Often hyper.
You have no name. No personality. And no goals outside of "wave dick around". These games had MASSIVE success. They weren't hurt the slightest by a blank protag.
That type of protag would however crash and burn, if you went with a story heavy VN or something.
I'm a gave dev myself. And others I've talked to, have admitted to adding "content and mechanics, for no reason other than: It's supposed to be there.". Heck, myself and one more had started adding a critical hit system. Before realizing: It would add nothing to the experience. And just be a hassle script wise. But people EXPECT a critical hit system in RPG's.
-
And they DO represent a vast majority of the games. Granted, yes: I didn't give the best, most universal examples.
But last I checked at least, for most of the examples: There's not a SINGLE game that exists atm, that breaks the genital roles, or similar. And as said: I made this as a quick guide, so people could realize if they were unintentionally using things akin to this. Innovation for innovations sake is bad. But so is archetypes. Many of them can harm the type of game someone might be thinking of doing. We have many modern examples where people question why the fuck X was in a game. And it's there because: It was there in the prior iterations.

4: I'm going to press X to doubt here. Mostly as you said "CD's", and the 90's weren't exactly known for having a vast selection of porn games on CD's... And even if true. That's 3. That'd be like... less than 0,001 % of porn games. Which, is kinda the opposite of any type of "gatcha!".
And the point was: These are rigid archetypes that people don't strive from. Simply "because". A male protagonist HAS to have these traits. And a female protagonist HAS to have these traits. And similarly: They also can't have these other traits. All based on the gender of the protagonist.

5: It's possible that I've missed some niche projects here and there. But, if we are talking about ALL of the "big ticket" games and animations. This applies. 99+ %. I only saw tens of thousands of people complain about what I mentioned. There weren't any complaints about pussies not being accurate enough. Or that the girls were left hanging. It was complaints about dicks not being dicky enough. Or certain male characters not being... "male" enough. Sure, you did have a few handful that were annoyed that the big budget game that promised to have SO much lesbian content, had a pathetic <4 % of it. But, you had many, MANY more that defended that game. As it was nearly male focus exclusive. And towed the line of what people would expect from a maledom game. (This would be easier if certain games weren't "shadow-banned" here and not allowed to be mentioned.) But point being: I'm not seeing any large scale demonstrations about how all these games with non-human males, ONLY had tiny human dicks. That never happened. BUT, people were told to "stop being picky" when the "monster girl" games contained 0 monster pussy.

6: It's not wrongly. It's fully accurate.
I'm not sure if I described it badly. Or if you somehow just missed it... But I've been doing this over for a decade. And, these are the tropes and archetypes I keep running into. It is possible that I have missed some side-part of the porn community. But I can't be everywhere at once.
But, to break it down: Let me ask you this: Does ANY of the games you listed have either A: A female protag, that in a majority of scenes: Cums, and the male does NOT cum. B: A male protag, that in a majority of scenes: Does NOT cum, but the female partner does. C: ONLY the female characters have variation in genital size/animal ones, while all the male characters have identical, tiny human penises. OR, D: Bonus: A female character that has a huge pussy, is sexually selfish, dominant and overall portrayed as a "cool character. BUT: Can shapeshift into a tiny penis, submissive and obedient, tiny dick futa that does nothing but pleasure pussy. Total 180 personality flip. (In case you didn't notice, I am listing the polar opposite of the standard porn archetypes crammed full into all porn games.)
-
Let me know of the several dozen games you seem to be aware off, that completely break the genital roles. /S
They are "very strict rules", as practically not a single game/animation dares to break them... that's kinda what that means.
Which, again: Is why futa is a great example of this. You have to wade through THOUSANDS of pictures alone, to find a SINGLE one that doesn't fully obey the mentioned roles. Just like I haven't seen a single game or animation, where the female side is the dominant/imposing one. As far as I know: They literally don't exist. Though again: If you CAN disprove this: Please do. I'm not joking. I'd love to see something that would break ~40 years of this being a strictly enforced porn rule.
But as it stands: I can currently search any porn site for a female shapeshifter. And I will basically ONLY get one of two results: A: Female. Tiny human-ish pussy. Submissive. B: Futa. MASSIVE (often animal) COCK. Dominant. And 0 other nuance or in between. (Yes, there's a handful of tiny pussy lesbian porn. Or tiny pussy dominatrix, and ONLY dominatrix femdom. But talking broad strokes here. If it's less than 0,01 %, it's not "commonly occurring".)

7: In the end, it's all what game they decide to make.
And considering the MASSIVE amount of games I see crash and die at version 0,1 or 0,2 as the devs wanted to add "ALL THE THINGS!" or they realize "Wait... this is just a shitter version of [game they based it on]". I'd say that being aware of these, would at least help even if they decide to ignore them. As it could help avoid them starting a game destined to fail.

 

[Kattlarv]

This is one of the most interesting forum posts I've seen. Wasn't expecting to actually learn something by browsing this site but life has many surprises.

P.S everything stated in the OP corresponds pretty well with my personal (although limited) experience with porn games

Well, I tried.
Seems I probably could have formulated it better. But, hopefully was of some use at least.

 

[nulnil]

TLDR;

Male characters always power the plot while females are usually just side characters (even if you play as them).

...

Sounds like a visual novel issue.

 

[anne O'nymous]

1: Again, now "HOW", but a "this is how it's USUALLY done".
Ie: "Most FPS games have chest hide walls. That you regenerate health behind."

Where are the "chest hide walls" in the Fallout Series, Elder Scrolls, Splinter Cell, Assassin Creeds or Call of Duty, series ?
Whatever their individual pros and cons, those are the actual reference when it come to FPS, and this since more than a decade. So, can something be qualified as "usually done" when none of the reference games are doing it ? Knowing that the industry try to mimic what was done by the last reference in this or that genre, it reduce even more the number of FPS having those "chest hide walls".
Even the series that started the now faded trend, dropped it at some point. There no such place in Doom 3, Quake 4 or Duke Nukem Forever.

Just like how the screen scrolls to the right. You go right. That's just how its always been. I'm not saying that going left is superior. But that people CAN do it, if they want.

Do you even know why horizontal scrolling go to the right ?
This isn't a trend, nor an arbitrary choice. It's because most languages are read from left to right, therefore it's the natural direction when you've to simulate a progression ; our brain will automatically assume that we are going forward.
What obviously lead to a cognitive dissonance for players who's native language is read right to left. Hail the majority, they won once again. /s

Let's take the "High Tail Hall" type of games. You're a dude. With a dick. [...]
That type of protag would however crash and burn, if you went with a story heavy VN or something.

This isn't a type of protagonist. Whatever definition you put behind the word, it always include a story, and those games have none. There's no protagonists in Mario Kart, by example, just playable characters.

I'm a gave dev myself. And others I've talked to, have admitted to adding "content and mechanics, for no reason other than: It's supposed to be there.".

And in my more or less 25 years as programmer, I've talked to probably not far to a hundred of game developers, from all horizon and all genre ; it probably sum up to few hundreds if I count online discussions. I'm still waiting for one to say something like that. Seem that the world isn't limited to our personal experience, who would have thought ?

But people EXPECT a critical hit system in RPG's.

Previously it was "everyone will", now it's "people expect"... You're fast when it come to putting thoughts in the head of 7 billions peoples.
Perhaps is it because I play RPGs, both table games and video games, since the early 80's and have seen tons of systems, but I do not expect a critical hit system ; and when there's one, I expect it to double with a critical failure.

But last I checked at least, for most of the examples: There's not a SINGLE game that exists atm, that breaks the genital roles, or similar.

Don't expect your knowledge to represent the undeniable truth. It's not because those games are infrequent, and you clearly missed them all, that they don't exist. Looks on the side of the NTR games, especially those that double as interracial and femdom. It's not my cup of tea, so no names cross my mind but, as I said, those games exist.

4: I'm going to press X to doubt here. Mostly as you said "CD's", and the 90's weren't exactly known for having a vast selection of porn games on CD's...

Well, a shame for you to lived this time in the wrong country. Here in France we even had half a dozen magazines, published monthly, dedicated to adult games, and those games were released on the most used support at this time, CDs. Note that France wasn't the only country, at least Japan also had a lot of those ; I know it, most games I played at this time were imports.
Once again, don't expect that your knowledge represent the undeniable truth, because it don't. There's a whole world outside, with near to 200 countries and more than 7 billions peoples. What apply to your surrounding do not necessarily apply outside of it, and what is true in your country isn't necessarily true in another one.

And even if true. That's 3. That'd be like... less than 0,001 % of porn games. Which, is kinda the opposite of any type of "gatcha!".

Three that I played and remember about, because unlike you I don't pretend to know all the games.

You said that you were "going off a strong limb and guessing: 0" as being the number of games I played that had "monster male enemies, [with] small, human dicks". I just answered you. At no time I claimed that you were wrong on something else than this number being 0.

I only saw tens of thousands of people complain about what I mentioned. There weren't any complaints about pussies not being accurate enough. Or that the girls were left hanging. It was complaints about dicks not being dicky enough. Or certain male characters not being... "male" enough.

You've only seen childish complains, and at no time you wondered if it could precisely be because they are childish ?
People don't talk when they are pleased, while grown adults know when it's totally useless to complain ; and asking a dev to change his game accordingly to your personal expectations is both useless and childish.
By the way, "tens of thousands", seriously guy, learn moderation.

And, these are the tropes and archetypes I keep running into. It is possible that I have missed some side-part of the porn community. But I can't be everywhere at once.

It's not what you said above when you claimed that "There's not a SINGLE game that exists atm, that breaks the genital roles, or similar."
You could have said that you don't know a game doing it, but you preferred to say it this way, while putting as much emphasis as possible in the fact that there's no exception to what you were saying. And I'll not starts with the other the peremptory assertions, both in this and your previous posts on this thread.

Which, again: Is why futa is a great example of this. You have to wade through THOUSANDS of pictures alone, to find a SINGLE one that doesn't fully obey the mentioned roles.

Futa Dungeon, Building our futature, Futaring - cursed futarani ring, A Futa-Rticle, futadomworld binding sim, Futagenesis Unveiled. The list of exceptions starts to be long, yet it's just the games I'm aware of, remember right now, and that have a title that don't let doubt so you shouldn't have missed them.

 

[Kattlarv]

TLDR;

Male characters always power the plot while females are usually just side characters (even if you play as them).

...

Sounds like a visual novel issue.

Dang, misplaced this thread. Will try to catch up on it.

In short: Sorta, yes.
Many also can't apply correct archetypes to characters. Due to ingrained porn tropes.
Again: RoR games are a great example. When they try to make male PC ones into power fantasies. As "men can't be weak".

 

[Kattlarv]

1: Where are the "chest hide walls" in the Fallout Series, Elder Scrolls, Splinter Cell, Assassin Creeds or Call of Duty, series ?
Whatever their individual pros and cons, those are the actual reference when it come to FPS, and this since more than a decade. So, can something be qualified as "usually done" when none of the reference games are doing it ? Knowing that the industry try to mimic what was done by the last reference in this or that genre, it reduce even more the number of FPS having those "chest hide walls".
Even the series that started the now faded trend, dropped it at some point. There no such place in Doom 3, Quake 4 or Duke Nukem Forever.

2: Do you even know why horizontal scrolling go to the right ?
This isn't a trend, nor an arbitrary choice. It's because most languages are read from left to right, therefore it's the natural direction when you've to simulate a progression ; our brain will automatically assume that we are going forward.
What obviously lead to a cognitive dissonance for players who's native language is read right to left. Hail the majority, they won once again. /s

3: This isn't a type of protagonist. Whatever definition you put behind the word, it always include a story, and those games have none. There's no protagonists in Mario Kart, by example, just playable characters.

4: And in my more or less 25 years as programmer, I've talked to probably not far to a hundred of game developers, from all horizon and all genre ; it probably sum up to few hundreds if I count online discussions. I'm still waiting for one to say something like that. Seem that the world isn't limited to our personal experience, who would have thought ?

5: Previously it was "everyone will", now it's "people expect"... You're fast when it come to putting thoughts in the head of 7 billions peoples.
Perhaps is it because I play RPGs, both table games and video games, since the early 80's and have seen tons of systems, but I do not expect a critical hit system ; and when there's one, I expect it to double with a critical failure.

6: Don't expect your knowledge to represent the undeniable truth. It's not because those games are infrequent, and you clearly missed them all, that they don't exist. Looks on the side of the NTR games, especially those that double as interracial and femdom. It's not my cup of tea, so no names cross my mind but, as I said, those games exist.

7: Well, a shame for you to lived this time in the wrong country. Here in France we even had half a dozen magazines, published monthly, dedicated to adult games, and those games were released on the most used support at this time, CDs. Note that France wasn't the only country, at least Japan also had a lot of those ; I know it, most games I played at this time were imports.
Once again, don't expect that your knowledge represent the undeniable truth, because it don't. There's a whole world outside, with near to 200 countries and more than 7 billions peoples. What apply to your surrounding do not necessarily apply outside of it, and what is true in your country isn't necessarily true in another one.

8: Three that I played and remember about, because unlike you I don't pretend to know all the games.

9 :You said that you were "going off a strong limb and guessing: 0" as being the number of games I played that had "monster male enemies, [with] small, human dicks". I just answered you. At no time I claimed that you were wrong on something else than this number being 0.

10: You've only seen childish complains, and at no time you wondered if it could precisely be because they are childish ?
People don't talk when they are pleased, while grown adults know when it's totally useless to complain ; and asking a dev to change his game accordingly to your personal expectations is both useless and childish.
By the way, "tens of thousands", seriously guy, learn moderation.

11: It's not what you said above when you claimed that "There's not a SINGLE game that exists atm, that breaks the genital roles, or similar."
You could have said that you don't know a game doing it, but you preferred to say it this way, while putting as much emphasis as possible in the fact that there's no exception to what you were saying. And I'll not starts with the other the peremptory assertions, both in this and your previous posts on this thread.

12: Futa Dungeon, Building our futature, Futaring - cursed futarani ring, A Futa-Rticle, futadomworld binding sim, Futagenesis Unveiled. The list of exceptions starts to be long, yet it's just the games I'm aware of, remember right now, and that have a title that don't let doubt so you shouldn't have missed them.

1: Those are NOT FPS games. (Many are FP though) And: CoD HAS chest hide walls.
The games mentioned, are either stealth, or RPG. In stealth: Your chest hide walls are the hay bales or similar. Hide in them, get your hp back. In the RPG's you have an inventory designed around hp recovery. You don't chest hide in RPG's until the booboos go away. And yeah. Because Doom and similar series are based on you playing a sentient fridge that can eat 824 bullets. And snort healthpacks to recover. This kinda circles back to my point: They follow VERY different rules. While sharing a similar "walk forward and murder things" genre. Which: Porn games can fuck up, if they get the roles wrong. Which they can often do. I think it was the new Wolfenstein that shat the bed with this? They gave you the HP of a chest hide wall game, but expected you to play like Doom.

2: It's like you smooth brained over the entire point, just to wave a factoid at the end.
Reading is an established fact, habit and thought pattern.
Some random dude in the 90's going "Eh... I'll do it like this" and no-one bothering to change that, is not.
We have PLENTY of games that have gone "Wait, why the fuck are we doing it like this? We only did it like this because of technological limitations that no longer exist!" and did something new. Porn tropes and archetypes are just that. They aren't some profound truth that backs thousands of years into human nature. Just like how PB&J is just one of millions of combinations. Like egg and bacon. They're simply the ones that are taught.

3: And those characters regardless, follows strict roles.
If we play 20 questions, we get the exact same answers. Whether they are a "protagonist" or not.

4: I'm still not sure if you think this is a pro or a con against... whatever you are going on about.

5: It's both. People that create it: Do. Those that consume it: Expect it.
Again: If the cap fits. To refer back to the comic example: When people have to dig through 5000+ comics, to find a SINGLE example of it not being exclusively male focused... that's not a "coincidence". That's a pattern. The fact you CAN find the blue moon example, doesn't mean it magically invalidates every single example in the universe, except that one example.
Generally, the closest is "automatic miss". Fallout is kinda the ones that popularized the "crit fail".

6: To follow up on the above: Yeah, it IS possible. But: When you have 0 evidence, can't point to a SINGLE example, and have never seen one. But you THINK they exist because "they are statistically probable to exist".
To which: Yeah. I can very much see myself having missed a game like that. I have not in fact: Played every single game in the universe. (I know that must be a shock to you.) Just like I am sure there is a horsegirl movie, where the horse dies, and the girl loses out there. I've never seen or heard about one. But, again: Statistically: It ought to exist.

Difference is: I can practically think of any utterly stupid concept involving dicks, and I CAN find a game about it. Like, I just went with "You grow a magic hyper horsedick, and flop it around". There's LITERALLY a game on the money on that. And dozens more that include it. (Just searched "horsecock transformation". But, on the flip side: 0 games about growing a magic horsecunt, or horsepussy. Fucking tubmleweed. But, as said: STATISTICALLY: That OUGHT to exist too.
So, yeah no: There's quite a difference on something that ticks every single box I've laid out, and is so common you can even be extremely picky about the specifics. But: Anything outside of said boxes... are left to a "Well, it SHOULD exist."

7: Yeah, having magazines dedicated to the best cock worship exclusive games are again: The opposite of the flex you think it is. It is possible it's not exclusively about male focus games. But, considering the hole you've dug yourself into so far... I'm not holding my breath. Like, I'm almost expecting you to list a "Top 10 games where you play a lesbian who gets raped, drugged and cured into being a straight cocksleeve!" as some sort of peak evidence that the magazine includes women too.

8: A spade is a spade.
Again: Practically every single game I've ever played, been paid to review, reviewed or play tested. Has been or met every single criteria+stereotype+archetype I've laid out. And you, like said: "have totes played" games that go against every single one, apparently. BUT: You can't name, link or provide examples, mysteriously enough.
Or, like the "checkmate atheist" moment: Point out a single game that 20 hours in, has half a scene of something it promised to contain. Which, again: Really is NOT impressive when I can run into 10 status quo scenes within 5-30 minutes in most other games.

9: You know, agreeing there's probably 0 games out there... and then claiming "you just have to look for them" contradicts each other quite a bit. Again: I'm not trying to overthrow the world porn government or something. I'm mostly pointing out the hypocrisy, status quo and other dumb shit. Not saying it HAS to be defied. But that it CAN. Being aware of shit tropes, is kinda the biggest way to either avoid them. Or include them purposefully. Porn games can improve.

10: It's not childish to ask for what you have been promised. Or call out bullshit lies.
People who CALL it childish are often immature or manipulative. As: That is the go-to tactic to try and dismiss criticisms.
Shift blame, and ad hominem against whomever said something negative. While true that most that leave critique or negative reviews are rarely sunshine and rainbows. Just take Cyberpunk. They PROMISED wallrunning as a KEY gameplay feature. And then... the game had 0 wallrunning. The people who got the game primarily due to the wallrunning: Was understandably pissed. And guess what? Fanboys and the media bitched and moaned about how "childish" and "entitled" these people were.

So, yeah. Expecting a dev to keep their fucking promise isn't some crazy new concept. "Childish people" expect that all the time. Strangely, people like you seem totally okay with sweeping that under the rug. UNLESS it was a status quo promise. Isn't it weird how if someone offers a "horsedick version on my patreon!" people EXPECT a horsedick version. And: Get extremely offended if they don't get one. Which is "understandable". But; If promised a horsepussy version, and there is none... people are suddenly "chilidsh" and "should get over it".
And dumbing down numbers doesn't help anyone. Or well, it's easier to read, but. Does nothing factually. You DO know we are billions of people, right?

11: ... You seem to either have always missed, or constantly forgetting that I said from the start of this tread: That I'm simplifying stuff. I even covered that I'm not going to break down things to be accurate down to the Pi value. This is MY experience and collected data from hundreds of devs I talked to. But I guess I could have been more specific. Ie: "There's currently not a single game that exist that breaks the genital roles, that me, anyone I've ever talked to, or any forum I have ever browsed, is aware of." and like said: If anyone HAD seen one: They were welcome to mention it. But to me at least, being anally specific in a thread mostly aimed at answering questions. Didn't seem like the primary goal. But: My bad if it was that confusing.

12: Every. Single. One. You listed. Fails in Every. Single. Way.
I didn't even get past the description or screenshots, to they strictly obey genital roles, obsessively promote penis superiority and the futa are exclusively dudes with hyper dicks. (The futaring is closest, but still follows the "the male with the biggest dick is alpha male" trope)

It's like you googled something, and just picked random shit from the front page, not even reading them.
Like one of those "Obesity is healthy?!" and if you actually clicked the link, it goes on to say: "Not in your wildest dreams! It's unhealthy AF, fam!" and you used that as one of your "examples" as to why obesity is healthy.
It would be difficult to fail harder than you did, even if someone tried.

There's not a SINGLE unique or imposing pussy. ALL the dicks are hyper and/or imposing. It's exclusively focusing on male pleasure. I could list the requirements again, but you already glossed over them once, proved me right at every single one, then acted as if showing games where futa are treated exclusively as male role wise... disproves my fact that all futa games portray them in male roles... ALL the games you shown as said: Failed. They couldn't meet a single criteria. That's the OPPOSITE of a flex. Like, geez... we are back in Lord Dominator "700 porn pics, 0 femdom" territory.

 

[anne O'nymous]

[A bunch of stupidities]

And you needed two months for this ? Wow... You clearly don't like to be proven wrong...


plonk...

 

[Ophanim]

I just want a game where I can seduce some cute guys and make them submit to me, step on them, that kind of thing, to be honest. Like, reverse succubus, work your way up to seducing The Hero and turning him into your cute pet, that kind of thing. (Yes, I have played Queens of Domination, and it was like an oasis in the desert, but much like Oliver Twist, I am eternally hopeful for more one of these days )

So like, I fucking feel what OP is talking about with fem protagonist games, where a lot of female protagonists feel like a cock sock puppet with little to no agency in an implicitly maledom porn world, and that's a problem if you play them and actually want to roleplay an assertive woman with some level of sexual experience. The thing is, OP is doing a terrible job of explaining what they mean. I assume the ranting tone of it is largely a form of catharsis. Like, I get what you're saying on some level I think, Kattlarv , but I wouldn't expect anne O'nymous to really get it, because it's an argument that's kind of hard to pin down in cold logic, and has more to do with the tone and framing of stories. Sorry Anne, I really do agree with you on a lot of things, and I don't mean anything bad by this, but from what I've seen, you do struggle whenever things get abstract.

Anyway, I get what you're saying when you say that female protagonists feel like NPCs (even if they aren't literally, because we're not actually talking about gaming terminology here), because they're written to be a passive object for someone else's desires to be vented on, rather an active character whose decisions drive the plot. It's pretty self-evidently the case when you play those games as a girl, and as far as I know, what OP is describing is elements of the

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, and of feminine gender roles. It's in everything when you play, in the tone of the writing, in the basic assumptions of the game world, in the way the characters are designed, in the way they move, even. Men are active, women are passive. Men take, women are taken from. Men think, women feel. Men fuck, women are fucked. Men are stoic, women are expressive. Sex makes men powerful, and women weak. Like, it's an obvious bias in the way we write, because the writing is reflective of a bias in the way we think about gender and sex. So yes, OP, I think you're correct in perceiving that very few of these female protagonist games are made for women.

Idk where I'm going with this, just saying I think I get where OP is coming from I guess, because they're basically writing an angry and disjointed feminist theory of porn gaming without knowing any feminist terminology. It's honestly quite impressive, even if a lot is getting lost in translation, though I don't think yelling at f95zone about it is going to do much good in the long run.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Sorry Anne, I really do agree with you on a lot of things, and I don't mean anything bad by this, but from what I've seen, you do struggle whenever things get abstract.

You don't have to be sorry for this. My life would be boring if I was perfect, and I would starts to fear myself if there were people who always agree with me.

 

[Ophanim]

You don't have to be sorry for this. My life would be boring if I was perfect, and I would starts to fear myself if there were people who always agree with me.

Haha, fair enough! I'd just noticed you seem to take things extremely literally when we pass each other in these convos, and didn't want you to think I was being a dick about it I also somehow failed to note this thread had been necroed, not that it really seems to matter much in this forum lol

Happy hannukah btw!

 

[Kattlarv]

And you needed two months for this ? Wow... You clearly don't like to be proven wrong...


plonk...

It's not "proven wrong". (On some parts, maybe.)
You as proven: Waltzed in. Strolled straight into a brick wall. Vomited "evidence" that proved you were wrong, and had no idea what you are talking about. And then stumbled back out.

Like, to just touch on the futa part again: I pointed out that "No futa game that me, or anyone else has ever seen in the history of futa porn: Has included, or gone against these parts:" and... you go "Oh YaEh?" and link a bunch of futa games that confirm and reinforce every single statement I made. It was exclusively hyper dicks, male futas, dick only focus, 0 pussy worship or anything... It's like I ask you to point to a SINGLE... I dunno, "vegan only" fast food restaurant. And you flail wildly at all the Mcdonalds and other burger joints. Thinking you are "owning the libs".

 

[Kattlarv]

While not game related per se. But: It also applies to all games: (That I have ever heard, seen, or been told about to date)

Had some people in discord point out, and discuss a certain topic:
To all we have been able to come across and find in 30+ years of porn: Not a SIGNLE comic exist that follows the cookie cutter formula of: The main character has: "An imposing genitalia. Is dominant. Is the ONLY one to cum/cums the mostest.", that features a female character of any IP.

BUT: You CAN find such a comic starring practically every single male character of any IP.
AND: In addition: You CAN also find such a comic, starring practically any female character of any IP: Genderbent into a dude/futa.

I know I've touched on the genital roles before. But this one feels rather straightforward.
It's a taaaaaaaad bit of a "just a coincidence" xP

 

[The Rogue Trader]

It's in everything when you play, in the tone of the writing, in the basic assumptions of the game world, in the way the characters are designed, in the way they move, even. Men are active, women are passive. Men take, women are taken from. Men think, women feel. Men fuck, women are fucked. Men are stoic, women are expressive. Sex makes men powerful, and women weak.

You know, Ophanim, three lines from you helped me understand how to try to write better female characters much more than a couple of whole threads from OP (and a bazillion of erotic/porn novels written by authors of both sexes for audiences of either sex).

 

[Ophanim]

You know, Ophanim, three lines from you helped me understand how to try to write better female characters much more than a couple of whole threads from OP (and a bazillion of erotic/porn novels written by authors of both sexes for audiences of either sex).

Aw, thank you! Yeah, it's really hard to pin down because the easy way out is to say 'the tone is wrong' but it's so much more than that (more like 'the base principle of the world feels wrong'), and also really hard to get across because it's not strictly logical, right? Or at least, hard to frame with logic in the way feelsy literary critique often is.

I'm glad my fumbling attempt was somewhat helpful to you at least

 

[The Rogue Trader]

Aw, thank you! Yeah, it's really hard to pin down because the easy way out is to say 'the tone is wrong' but it's so much more than that (more like 'the base principle of the world feels wrong'), and also really hard to get across because it's not strictly logical, right? Or at least, hard to frame with logic in the way feelsy literary critique often is.

It isn't a problem to me that the topic isn't analytical. Actually, your "feelsy" approach is what is lighting my lamps.
I won't have any use for a table of hard data about character types. That's not how I work. I need to feel them on my fingertips while I type. When I think their dialogue, they need to jump up and speak for themselves. This is how I work.

These days I waste a lot of time reading all the negative reviews of games, looking for the pitfalls where others fell so that I can keep my eyes open when I write.
Very often I hear complaints about shallow LIs, having cardboard personalities, and existing only as fuck dolls.
And my insecurity kicks in.
Am I writing cardboard, LIs that the players won't like? The ideas that I find novel and good are my next man's overused clichès? My aggressive women of power (physical power, political power) are just male characters with pussies? How I'm going to bring out the hidden qualities of the stoic damsel-in-distress before the player will lose interest in her? How can I spice up the posh, spoiled, slutty noblewoman in a way that won't label her "as exclusive as a mailbox" and condemn her to be ignored?

This is less a problem in my modern-day story, where I'm confident I wrote female characters that are nuanced enough, but for my fantasy story I'm much less confident (it helps that I've been working on the previous one for years while the fantasy characters are much younger), so I'm combing this site and the Interwebz in general, trying to find someone that doesn't just say stuff like "Oh, you know, you have to write female characters, not male characters in drag" as if that explains anything.

 

[Ophanim]

It isn't a problem to me that the topic isn't analytical. Actually, your "feelsy" approach is what is lighting my lamps.
I won't have any use for a table of hard data about character types. That's not how I work. I need to feel them on my fingertips while I type. When I think their dialogue, they need to jump up and speak for themselves. This is how I work.

These days I waste a lot of time reading all the negative reviews of games, looking for the pitfalls where others fell so that I can keep my eyes open when I write.
Very often I hear complaints about shallow LIs, having cardboard personalities, and existing only as fuck dolls.
And my insecurity kicks in.
Am I writing cardboard, LIs that the players won't like? The ideas that I find novel and good are my next man's overused clichès? My aggressive women of power (physical power, political power) are just male characters with pussies? How I'm going to bring out the hidden qualities of the stoic damsel-in-distress before the player will lose interest in her? How can I spice up the posh, spoiled, slutty noblewoman in a way that won't label her "as exclusive as a mailbox" and condemn her to be ignored?

This is less a problem in my modern-day story, where I'm confident I wrote female characters that are nuanced enough, but for my fantasy story I'm much less confident (it helps that I've been working on the previous one for years while the fantasy characters are much younger), so I'm combing this site and the Interwebz in general, trying to find someone that doesn't just say stuff like "Oh, you know, you have to write female characters, not male characters in drag" as if that explains anything.

Oof, yeah, that makes sense. When I say it's feelsy, what I really mean is that I'm completely unused to people like you coming along who are just happy to chat. I'm used to things being brushed off as 'just subtext' or 'you're just entitled' or even 'trying to shame devs into being woke' on one occasion, and having to argue my ass off just to try to prove to people something I feel I've observed is a valid opinion to have on media. Let alone that I might (maybe, idk) have a point

I think that, with regard to your stoic damsel and slutty noblewoman, you're going to be grappling with existing audience expectations? Like, there are a certain subsection of people who would label a woman having sex for pleasure as 'too slutty' because her being separate from their expectation of pleasure is an alienating concept for them. The question I would ask those reviewers is... why does she need to be 'exclusive' to be attractive? Guys often aren't exclusive. They're encouraged to sleep around. Women aren't really much different there, because sex is fun, apart from the social stigma of being 'dirty' because a man 'won't want to marry that', which still lingers on. And because it does, people apply completely different sets of standards to the same actions depending on whether a character presents as masculine or feminine. We want the same things, but are treated completely differently for... honestly really nebulous and stupid reasons we all take for granted to some degree.

I would say that a feminine character doesn't have to be feminine all the time, or in every way, but that upbringing and society leave their marks, and the ways in which they choose to accept or reject femme/masc ideals will reflect that. The stoic damsel might consciously reject the call to be perpetually silly and submissively girly, but still tries to appease male characters if they seem too nervous/angry around her. She assumes that's what they want, despite any evidence to the contrary, because that's how she's seen other women act, and she's never really examined that assumption. The noblewoman might use contraceptives religiously and reject the ideals of chastity and innocence, but still have very concrete ideas about how a lady 'should dress'.

A big part of the 'brainless waifu' aesthetic, I think, is that the women are designed from the ground up to be unchallenging to men's worldviews, and part of that is being

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. They're easy to mold to the man's expectations, or trick, and rarely have opinions of their own.

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in ways pretty much only a straight man would be comfortable with (please watch that series, it's fucking excellent). They don't 'enjoy' sex, because that would make them an active participant. They kind of... go along with it, in a completely frictionless way, and just kinda do things that men generally find appealing, like swallowing cum or doing anal without taking time to prep. It's all very... convenient, and not an active choice the female character is making. They never make the man feel vulnerable or fetishized in return, but instead exist solely to make him feel powerful. They're never

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.

And some people, the ones you're seeing in negative reviews of otherwise beloved titles I'd wager, see through the illusion and are horrified by the sycophantic pandering they find there.

That's when your readers' perceptions of what is happening take over, because they have assumptions based on irl society, and some of them run for the hills because your women aren't what they've come to expect from women in porn. Idk what you can really do about that... It feels like there's a silent majority of men who are used to receiving exactly what they already wanted from media, and don't care so long as they aren't challenged by other media in any way. I mean, why would they? They're getting all the vanilla porn they could dream of, and have no reason to care about the exclusion of people who aren't them. Straight women are exactly the same about romance books - they want their tall, stoic, maledom dude with a good job, and if your book doesn't do that, it's wrong. Some of them are going to walk away with the impression you made your women 'too masculine' or 'too bitchy' and that's... kinda their right, even if I doubt either of us would agree.

Uh, that is to say, you can't change society by yourself, and this worldview has a lot of momentum, and lots of people like waifus so long as they're pretty and never challenge them on anything, I think. Still trying to pin down what would make a woman feel 'too much like a man' for me, but it's not coming to me, and this is long af already. Going against established expectations will likely hurt your mass audience appeal, but it's really about what you want to make, and how you feel about the concepts of sex and gender. If you're even thinking about any of this, you're already doing better at writing women than your average Ren'py 'array of fuckable women' game dev. Oh, and it's impossible to avoid society's effects on shaping you as a writer, 'cause it's already inside you, for better or worse

Ugh... I'm being vaguely analytical because I assume that's what you'll want in order to take me seriously, despite you literally telling me that's not what you wanted. See what I meant? :O