Tiny_Devil

Smutsmith
Game Developer
Jan 26, 2018
441
1,129
I really want to say this game is amazing, but having things like EVADE and MISS or whatever its called ruins it so much for me. Like how do I describe it. My cow is a higher level than the enemy cow, and the enemy cow is 1 hit. MY COW MISSES 5 TIMES IN A ROW. Im sorry but if you implement battles in your game do not make the RNG the biggest factor in a fight, It absolutely destroys any and all tactics you can have.
Odds of that we're incredibly slim. Not impossible though.
Still, I went ahead and changed the code, next update the odds of getting 5 misses in a row will be 1/100000. Mind you, this wasn't changed solely because of a single persons comment, but also has not been some massive overlooked issue either. There's been a few scattered complaints over the years and the comment here just brought it back to my attention.
 

Karnewarrior

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,173
1,313
That's a holdover from Pokemon, and is implemented there (and here) to ensure any fight against a higher level opponent isn't a certain loss for the lower level mon.

Perfectly static systems like that with no RNG can work, BUT they require a lot of complexity to make them fun to tinker with. Fun stops when the learning does after all. Corrupted Saviors is a good example of what a well-tuned static combat system looks like in action, and while I love that game to bits, it's dense as fuck and would make a poor match with this game's vibe and direction.

Edit: Should I interpret that as you adding some Rubberbanding, Devil? Or was it just a misplaced/misvalued variable?
 

Antoris

Member
Feb 25, 2019
106
50
That's a holdover from Pokemon, and is implemented there (and here) to ensure any fight against a higher level opponent isn't a certain loss for the lower level mon.

Perfectly static systems like that with no RNG can work, BUT they require a lot of complexity to make them fun to tinker with. Fun stops when the learning does after all. Corrupted Saviors is a good example of what a well-tuned static combat system looks like in action, and while I love that game to bits, it's dense as fuck and would make a poor match with this game's vibe and direction.

Edit: Should I interpret that as you adding some Rubberbanding, Devil? Or was it just a misplaced/misvalued variable?
He just reduces the miss chance of the player in general. And to clarify some of the scattered complaints are from me :LOL:. I am notoriously unlucky, to the point that me testing the game was simply impossible when it came to testing things like spawnrates or combat balance. We talking not being able to spawn a girl with a 50% spawn rate for an literal hour. i told him to not really bother with it as long as its only me having issues, cause trying to balance a game after my bad luck is simply impossible. But now that more people are seemingly cursed with as bad luck as me, we adjusted some numbers to reduce the feels bad moments. The game is here to make people feel good, so frustration from the combat is something we like to avoid.
 
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YmirIcy

New Member
Jun 10, 2024
7
2
That's a holdover from Pokemon, and is implemented there (and here) to ensure any fight against a higher level opponent isn't a certain loss for the lower level mon.

Perfectly static systems like that with no RNG can work, BUT they require a lot of complexity to make them fun to tinker with. Fun stops when the learning does after all. Corrupted Saviors is a good example of what a well-tuned static combat system looks like in action, and while I love that game to bits, it's dense as fuck and would make a poor match with this game's vibe and direction.

Edit: Should I interpret that as you adding some Rubberbanding, Devil? Or was it just a misplaced/misvalued variable?
Truthfully, I would rather level up and then come back. Or he could add elemental affinities like the fire girl, havent found her yet being very effective against the driad and stuff. Or elemental attacks. Or like a equipped item or you could change like the horn color to red horn which increases crit chance/crit dmg etc.
The problem I keep facing is that I calculate my damage their damage and then reach a conclusion with which girl I fight for her to win. But if the enemy evades once, I am just praying my girl also evades or she dies. Im not really made for these types of games with rng, its still acceptable but having the enemy evade 5 times in a row and losing a very difficult battle because of that triggered me to make a comment.
 
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YmirIcy

New Member
Jun 10, 2024
7
2
Odds of that we're incredibly slim. Not impossible though.
Still, I went ahead and changed the code, next update the odds of getting 5 misses in a row will be 1/100000. Mind you, this wasn't changed solely because of a single persons comment, but also has not been some massive overlooked issue either. There's been a few scattered complaints over the years and the comment here just brought it back to my attention.
Thank you very much
 
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Tiny_Devil

Smutsmith
Game Developer
Jan 26, 2018
441
1,129
That's a holdover from Pokemon, and is implemented there (and here) to ensure any fight against a higher level opponent isn't a certain loss for the lower level mon.

Perfectly static systems like that with no RNG can work, BUT they require a lot of complexity to make them fun to tinker with. Fun stops when the learning does after all. Corrupted Saviors is a good example of what a well-tuned static combat system looks like in action, and while I love that game to bits, it's dense as fuck and would make a poor match with this game's vibe and direction.

Edit: Should I interpret that as you adding some Rubberbanding, Devil? Or was it just a misplaced/misvalued variable?
Nothing was actually wrong with the code itself, just tweaked a value that set the maximum chance the enemy has to dodge when you attack. The actual line of code is a bit more complex than a simple rng roll obviously, but to boil it down to simple odds.
1 miss = 10% = It'll happen here and there.
2 miss = 1% = It's going to happen eventually, but so rarely that you probably wont recall the last time it happened.
3 miss = 0.1% = About the same odds of cracking an egg with a double yolk. Yes I'm looking up random stats at this point.
4 miss = 0.01% = Approaching "struck by lightning at some point in your lifetime" level of odds.
5 miss = 0.001% = idk, you angered an old god or something. Its literally a 1/100000 chance.

Something that kind of never gets talked about is that the game in its entirety is stacked heavily in the players favor already. Capture chance is higher than what's labeled on capture items. Enemies never use heal items. Chances of you characters dodge are higher and only get higher the less health you have. Player monster level cap is like 3 levels higher than wild monster level cap. Things like that everywhere in the battle system. Basically, we do understand the need of tweaking and twisting the numbers behind the scenes to make the battle system 'okay' at least. We have two audiences to please with this, people playing the game and people beating off to the game, so there isn't a perfect middle ground.
 
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Tiny_Devil

Smutsmith
Game Developer
Jan 26, 2018
441
1,129
Truthfully, I would rather level up and then come back. Or he could add elemental affinities like the fire girl, havent found her yet being very effective against the driad and stuff. Or elemental attacks. Or like a equipped item or you could change like the horn color to red horn which increases crit chance/crit dmg etc.
The problem I keep facing is that I calculate my damage their damage and then reach a conclusion with which girl I fight for her to win. But if the enemy evades once, I am just praying my girl also evades or she dies. Im not really made for these types of games with rng, its still acceptable but having the enemy evade 5 times in a row and losing a very difficult battle because of that triggered me to make a comment.
"Or he could add elemental affinities like the fire girl, havent found her yet being very effective against the driad and stuff."
We don't have a fire girl, so I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about.
 

YmirIcy

New Member
Jun 10, 2024
7
2
"Or he could add elemental affinities like the fire girl, havent found her yet being very effective against the driad and stuff."
We don't have a fire girl, so I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about.
The second girl on the left of the banner is red. So its fire in my mind no matter what you say xD.
And is the chance calculated per attack? Or per match or per animal?
Or is it like 10% chance to evade each time you attack, and if he evades 5 times its just moving the , 5 times?
 

Tiny_Devil

Smutsmith
Game Developer
Jan 26, 2018
441
1,129
The second girl on the left of the banner is red. So its fire in my mind no matter what you say xD.
And is the chance calculated per attack? Or per match or per animal?
Or is it like 10% chance to evade each time you attack, and if he evades 5 times its just moving the , 5 times?
The code isn't horrible complicated, but its not something I have time for a major in depth discussion on. But again, its been changed to 10% max dodge chance (stats playing a part in the math). Rolled at the start of the turn.
 

YmirIcy

New Member
Jun 10, 2024
7
2
Something that kind of never gets talked about is that the game in its entirety is stacked heavily in the players favor already. Capture chance is higher than what's labeled on capture items. Enemies never use heal items. Chances of you characters dodge are higher and only get higher the less health you have. Player monster level cap is like 3 levels higher than wild monster level cap. Things like that everywhere in the battle system. Basically, we do understand the need of tweaking and twisting the numbers behind the scenes to make the battle system 'okay' at least. We have two audiences to please with this, people playing the game and people beating off to the game, so there isn't a perfect middle ground.
I dont mean to badmouth you but, why is the capture chance higher than what is labeled on the items? Isnt that like a problem? I was already wondering how I could catch 15 animals on a 65% basis. How is it calculated? Does draining the hp have a big effect?
You know, fun fact, when I started the game I had not yet reached the manor, or knew there was a main quest and just went ahead and try and catch girls but I did not know how. So I figured I had to arouse them to catch them but because they never self healed it was impossible to have them fully aroused with nim(starting cow dont know if the name is random).
Well thats just my experience
oh your active rn, Hi
 

Tiny_Devil

Smutsmith
Game Developer
Jan 26, 2018
441
1,129
I dont mean to badmouth you but, why is the capture chance higher than what is labeled on the items? Isnt that like a problem? I was already wondering how I could catch 15 animals on a 65% basis. How is it calculated? Does draining the hp have a big effect?
You know, fun fact, when I started the game I had not yet reached the manor, or knew there was a main quest and just went ahead and try and catch girls but I did not know how. So I figured I had to arouse them to catch them but because they never self healed it was impossible to have them fully aroused with nim(starting cow dont know if the name is random).
Well thats just my experience
oh your active rn, Hi
That lie is a lie you have been told thousands of times already. Number fudging is common in games. The issue is that when I show you that you have a 90% hit chance, everyone expects to hit every single time. That's basically the issue that you came here to take issue with. But if I told you that you have a solid 10% chance to dodge, you probably think you might get lucky. See how those two things don't match up, even though its the same stat. 90% hit / 10% dodge.
Its not the stats that are the issue, its the perception of them that is. So I lie to make it 'feel' like what you think it should 'feel' like. Happens in a lot of games.
 
Last edited:

Karnewarrior

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,173
1,313
I dont mean to badmouth you but, why is the capture chance higher than what is labeled on the items? Isnt that like a problem? I was already wondering how I could catch 15 animals on a 65% basis. How is it calculated? Does draining the hp have a big effect?
You know, fun fact, when I started the game I had not yet reached the manor, or knew there was a main quest and just went ahead and try and catch girls but I did not know how. So I figured I had to arouse them to catch them but because they never self healed it was impossible to have them fully aroused with nim(starting cow dont know if the name is random).
Well thats just my experience
oh your active rn, Hi
That's actually a common game design technique. Humans are god-awful at statistics, so we tend to severely over or underestimate the odds of something happening. Plus, folk tend to remember when something doesn't go as they expected, but forget all the times it does.

XCOM does this all the time. Say you're shooting at an alien and you've got a 95% chance to hit on the UI. Most people think about it like "if I take this shot 20 times, I'll miss only once". But then you take the shot twice and miss both times. "Bullshit!" you think, "That was bullshit!"

It wasn't though, just how odds work.

It got so bad during playtesting that the XCOM team decided to fudge the numbers, generally scooting them down a little bit so that the game told you the odds were worse than they actually were. That way people felt like the chances were correct, and not lies.
 
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