VN Ren'Py Nephilim [v0.5.0] [BuuPlays]

[MisterNephilim]

it would have made way more sense to have her as a human and being something tying the MC to his humanity side. I just think there is a far more interesting story for the characters if he was struggling with his humanity and where he came from and had a partner to help him with that.

I could argue that having her being a fledgling Vampire with a strong ancient bloodline could help MC find his humanity MORE because now he has a "duty" to guide her towards being more human than succumbing to the beast, sort of like a mirror of himself, while also raising the stakes.

Anyways, we'll see in later updates and the game hasn't let me down yet.

I think possibly having her as a badass Blade-meets-Bloodrayne character has some serious potential

Hell yeah.

 

[Tokenugget]

I just dont see a path where she remains a vampire that will get me to want to play this game again. Imo her character would have been much better being a moral compass "normal" human while the MC goes through all his changes, being a partner to ground him and not let him corrupt.

Her being a vamp just to keep up with a MC thats going to gain power just to keep her relevant is boring imo, and a waste of a really good character so far.

You won't play this anymore because you'd rather Eliza stay as a simple little girl that fawns over the MC but has the ability to calm him down if he rages....Such an amazing story arch!!

But now she becomes a badass vampire Queen, 2nd in line with Lucid herself and has her own demons to fight with the bloodthirst, similar to the MC's murderous rage.... now they both have to support each-other from becoming monsters.

Geez, not sure what story i'd rather follow...

 

[linkinn]

You guys are focusing too much on negatives. I think possibly having her as a badass Blade-meets-Bloodrayne character has some serious potential.

Her charm lies entirely in her bubbly personality, at least for me. Transforming her into a badass could potentially disrupt that charm; it ultimately depends on how Buu handles the tone of her scenes.

 

[MisterNephilim]

Her charm lies entirely in her bubbly personality, at least for me. Transforming her into a badass could potentially disrupt that charm; it ultimately depends on how Buu handles the tone of her scenes.

At the moment the ruling concept is that "her emotions are heightened, and could lead to bloodlust/thirst", so she can still be bubbly. At least on the route to the training circle thingy in the forest she was good ol' Eliza. Same with her behind the counter in the adventurer's guild, so maybe there is room for both. At least that is what I hope for.

 

[micojive]

You won't play this anymore because you'd rather Eliza stay as a simple like girl that fawns over the MC but has the ability to calm him down if he rages....Such an amazing story arch!!

But now she becomes a badass vampire Queen, 2nd in line with Lucid herself and has her own demons to fight with the bloodthirst, similar to the MC's murderous rage.... now they both have to support each-other from becoming monsters.

Geez, not sure what story i'd rather follow...

I dont want to play a game that has her turn into some fake power leveled monster to try keeping her relevant to a character that will undoubtably gain insane power ala DBZ.

Before she was a loving girl who could have helped the MC stay grounded in his humanity while being a moral compass to a character with power they never had before.

See I can make examples too.

 

[micojive]

I could argue that having her being a fledgling Vampire with a strong ancient bloodline could help MC find his humanity MORE because now he has a "duty" to guide her towards being more human than succumbing to the beast, sort of like a mirror of himself, while also raising the stakes.

Anyways, we'll see in later updates and the game hasn't let me down yet.



Hell yeah.

Wish I had your faith in the game, for me the game already started going poorly when the Pirate arc happened.

 

[Dessolos]

I think I'm one of the few people that didn't hate the pirate arc at least not entirely. I only disliked how Kira couldn't take no for a answer if you declined her. Otherwise I just thought it was okay but not good either.

 

[Harem4life]

To all those guys who keep saying that her personality hasn't changed and she's still the same sweet and caring girl, why didn't she surrender yet after killing an innocent? If she's still the same girl she should feel guilty about it and surrender herself but she's going around freely and covering her murder and shit.

Or is it that it is actually in her nature to kill people and live life freely and guilt free?

MC is a huge asshole but Eliza ain't that far.

Dev really likes to play with fire. He had 3 girls betray MC already and now he is making the main LI kill innocents and some of you actually find it sexy for some reason.

Her getting transformed to a vampire is fine. Great even. Dev could have conveyed what he wanted to convey without killing innocents I think.

 

[slick97]

Okay, this comment was too good to pass up. I swear this I'll go back to lurking afterwards!

You won't play this anymore because you'd rather Eliza stay as a simple like girl that fawns over the MC but has the ability to calm him down if he rages....Such an amazing story arch!!

But now she becomes a badass vampire Queen, 2nd in line with Lucid herself and has her own demons to fight with the bloodthirst, similar to the MC's murderous rage.... now they both have to support each-other from becoming monsters.

Geez, not sure what story i'd rather follow...

This is a common pitfall fledgling writers (ha, see the pun I made there?) fall into - thinking that a matching characters' raw strength is the same as making them equivalently effective. The reality is you can write engaging characters with effective story arcs without relying on actually using macguffins (hence their namesake). The Boys is a prime example of excellent writing despite the existence of extremely overpowered characters.

Even without any of the above being said, just think about the current cast of characters and who among them would be a better fit for the figurative devil on MC's shoulder. Selena is the first one that comes to mind for me. See the spoiler below for how the sequence of events could've played out:

Spoiler: Alternate Vampirism Arc

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Also think about other media, such as Sokka from the A:TLA series. He has an entire mini-arc in season 3 specifically pointing out that he doesn't have powers and never will, but he proves to be an integral part to the team by focusing on his core strengths from as early as season 1. No special bending or unique powers, and yet he came closer than anyone in defeating the Firelord (finding his biggest weakness and exploiting it).



Eliza's strength was always in the way she could calm the MC when he went into a rage, and this was even explicitly stated early on in the first chapter. Instead of expanding upon her unique power to control MC's dark side, she is instead turned into a monster with even less control over her murderous nature than he is. This isn't just a minor change in her persona, it's a complete 180 from how she was introduced and developed during the first 2 chapters.

 

[Dessolos]

It's no secret I like Eliza alot but I just felt like sharing my own my point of view of on the whole thing. I understand why some might feel completely different but here is my own point of view and thoughts.

When it comes to her feeling guilty or not :

I thought she showed she felt guilty but is just poorly executed on how it is done and shown. Once right after it happened and again during training. But when the MC comforts her it's like it take all the emotion's she had from feeling guilty out of the scene so it comes across as she didn't. But from the dialogue she clearly does at least I thought so.

About covering up the murder :

it wasn't even her idea to cover up the murder it was the adventure's guild that did it. From a game point / dev point of view I think it would no sense to turn her self in cause that would mean another arc without her after we just got her back. But then the question is would she turn her self in?

I think the answer is no for 2 reasons . The MC's word is like gold to her so if he says not to turn her self in or stop her she won't. Also she is selfish when it comes to being with the MC so she wouldn't want to be separated even if she does feel guilty about what she did.

Now here is where my personal point of view comes in. Just cause she killed someone I don't think it means she is no longer a sweet and caring girl with a big heart. I say this cause it wasn't on purpose but also from my point of view is it was because she lost of control of herself. I know some thinks she does have control. I personally don't think so otherwise she wouldn't of lost control during the training session. Also when it came to biting the MC then killing the women I still think she lost control with the MC otherwise it wouldn't of been a struggle and have to use her love to barley stop herself. To me this played out like the classic cliche in alot of vampire tv shows girl or boy turns into a vampire barley stops their self from feeding on their lover runs away from their lover as they can't control their self and thus killing an innocent.

Morally sure it does make sense to turn herself in. But I don't think this changes her personality unless she keeps on killing and she just stops feeling anything or caring. But I never thought she was 100% morally good to begin with because of how selfish and possessive or jealous she is over the MC. I always thought if anyone hurts the MC that's when she would stop caring about what is good and wrong until she got revenge, as long as she thought they were guilty. But to anyone else that wasn't an enemy or potential threat to the MC that's when she was sweet and caring to me.

Again this is just how I personally see things but I understand why some may not agree and have a completely different opinion.

I don't think she is blameless or anything. I do still have a bit of hard time accepting her but not so much so I'm writing her off just yet. Because of how much I like her character and enjoyed her from the start till now i'm willing to giving it time to play out and see if she gets worst or not before I shift to team Alice. But also I'm a very understanding and forgiving person in real life. So it's easy for me to be understanding and a little bit forgiving because of the circumstances / context also alot of it is because it's a video game. But her character is on thin ice for me despite how much I like her.

 

[micojive]

Okay, this comment was too good to pass up. I swear this I'll go back to lurking afterwards!

This is a common pitfall fledgling writers (ha, see the pun I made there?) fall into - thinking that a matching characters' raw strength is the same as making them equivalently effective. The reality is you can write engaging characters with effective story arcs without relying on actually using macguffins (hence their namesake). The Boys is a prime example of excellent writing despite the existence of extremely overpowered characters.

Even without any of the above being said, just think about the current cast of characters and who among them would be a better fit for the figurative devil on MC's shoulder. Selena is the first one that comes to mind for me. See the spoiler below for how the sequence of events could've played out:

Spoiler: Alternate Vampirism Arc

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Also think about other media, such as Sokka from the A:TLA series. He has an entire mini-arc in season 3 specifically pointing out that he doesn't have powers and never will, but he proves to be an integral part to the team by focusing on his core strengths from as early as season 1. No special bending or unique powers, and yet he came closer than anyone in defeating the Firelord (finding his biggest weakness and exploiting it).



Eliza's strength was always in the way she could calm the MC when he went into a rage, and this was even explicitly stated early on in the first chapter. Instead of expanding upon her unique power to control MC's dark side, she is instead turned into a monster with even less control over her murderous nature than he is. This isn't just a minor change in her persona, it's a complete 180 from how she was introduced and developed during the first 2 chapters.

My thoughts exactly as I've shared in the last few pages here. I felt like there was a real opportunity to have her be the human, moral compass for a partner who is going to come into a hell of a lot of strength and difficult choices. Disappointment in the direction the dev chose to take her character is an understatement from me.

 

[Content_Consumer]

It was, so far as it seems, stupid to have her kill the innocent bar maid.
The same "purpose" could have been achieved with almost killing the bar maid but have the MC stop her before it was too late.

Eliza still could have been distraught and remorseful at nearly having killed an innocent.
The actual murder itself seems to have served no purpose.

 

[Harem4life]

It's no secret I like Eliza alot but I just felt like sharing my own my point of view of on the whole thing. I understand why some might feel completely different but here is my own point of view and thoughts.

When it comes to her feeling guilty or not :

I thought she showed she felt guilty but is just poorly executed on how it is done and shown. Once right after it happened and again during training. But when the MC comforts her it's like it take all the emotion's she had from feeling guilty out of the scene so it comes across as she didn't. But from the dialogue she clearly does at least I thought so.

About covering up the murder :

it wasn't even her idea to cover up the murder it was the adventure's guild that did it. From a game point / dev point of view I think it would no sense to turn her self in cause that would mean another arc without her after we just got her back. But then the question is would she turn her self in?

I think the answer is no for 2 reasons . The MC's word is like gold to her so if he says not to turn her self in or stop her she won't. Also she is selfish when it comes to being with the MC so she wouldn't want to be separated even if she does feel guilty about what she did.

Now here is where my personal point of view comes in. Just cause she killed someone I don't think it means she is no longer a sweet and caring girl with a big heart. I say this cause it wasn't on purpose but also from my point of view is it was because she lost of control of herself. I know some thinks she does have control. I personally don't think so otherwise she wouldn't of lost control during the training session. Also when it came to biting the MC then killing the women I still think she lost control with the MC otherwise it wouldn't of been a struggle and have to use her love to barley stop herself. To me this played out like the classic cliche in alot of vampire tv shows girl or boy turns into a vampire barley stops their self from feeding on their lover runs away from their lover as they can't control their self and thus killing an innocent.

Morally sure it does make sense to turn herself in. But I don't think this changes her personality unless she keeps on killing and she just stops feeling anything or caring. But I never thought she was 100% morally good to begin with because of how selfish and possessive or jealous she is over the MC. I always thought if anyone hurts the MC that's when she would stop caring about what is good and wrong until she got revenge, as long as she thought they were guilty. But to anyone else that wasn't an enemy or potential threat to the MC that's when she was sweet and caring to me.

Again this is just how I personally see things but I understand why some may not agree and have a completely different opinion.

I don't think she is blameless or anything. I do still have a bit of hard time accepting her but not so much so I'm writing her off just yet. Because of how much I like her character and enjoyed her from the start till now i'm willing to giving it time to play out and see if she gets worst or not before I shift to team Alice. But also I'm a very understanding and forgiving person in real life. So it's easy for me to be understanding and a little bit forgiving because of the circumstances / context also alot of it is because it's a video game. But her character is on thin ice for me despite how much I like her.

Honestly the main problem here is MC. I said in my comment above that he is a huge asshole. He was supposed to bring something which will cure her legs but he brought something more than that. He brought something which will turn her into a vampire. When she was reluctant MC forced her to drink the blood. He emotionally manipulated her. Later he didn't pay much attention to her and slept like he has nothing to worry about. Later he helper her feel guilt free and cover up for murder.

Eliza was a good girl before meeting MC. Her meeting MC is the biggest mistake of her life. Now she's infatuated and tied to a toxic asshole who does whatever he feels like doing without worrying about anyone else. I personally would have left the chalice in the island because making her vampire sounded worse that leaving her paralyzed. I wouldn't want my loved ones to become a monster. He very well knew that she will always be thirsty for blood and still fucked up her life.

She was paralyzed before but she was still living a peaceful life. Now she will live with the guilt of killing an innocent girl and our toxic MC will keep manipulating her.

I'm not sure if eliza's feeling guilt free within seconds has anything to do with MC being a nephilim. He might be manipulating her to be guilt free.

It was, so far as it seems, stupid to have her kill the innocent bar maid.

The same "purpose" could have been achieved with almost killing the bar maid but have the MC stop her before it was too late.



Eliza still could have been distraught and remorseful at nearly having killed an innocent.

The actual murder itself seems to have served no purpose.

That's what I've been saying since yesterday. Dev really like to play with fire so I don't think he can do things without going extreme. MC for betrayed by 3 girls already. There's no need to kill anyone to convey the same message but he still went extreme with it.

 

[amandressedlikeabat]

Not a fan of this update. The sex scene was distinctly unerotic. More than that was the change with Eliza. Now, I've never been turned into a vampire, so I don't know what the first bloodlust is like. It may be that not a single human could possibly control it. However,

Spoiler: spoiler

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It may be temporary insanity, and it may never happen again, but the way she reacts is not good. She should not just get over it. She should lock herself in her room for a week. She should need to be dragged back to living by the protagonist. She should have to live with the guilt her entire life. Even if he convinced her that she wasn't in control, a decent person will feel guilt, and it won't begin to diminish until she can prove to herself that she is in control and it won't happen again. Look up survivor's guilt. Those people feel terrible despite doing absolutely nothing wrong. Why would Eliza not be haunted by something that she could control - she didn't do it to the protagonist despite her bloodlust.
(Also, the guild leader doesn't seem bothered by it at all, and I'm not sure if that's supposed to be intentional to raise questions about his morality.)

 

[drifter139]

I feel like everyone here is forgetting something. from the limited knowledge of vampires in this game, we get a sense that the species declined to a point where things like walking in the sun was impossible whereas Eliza was turned into a vampire by a relic created by the original vampire meaning that her level of control at first was going to be extremely limited. realistically killing only 1 person should be considered a feat whereas if others were in that position, it would have been more

 

[AL.d]

While I personally agree, the criticism people are providing for why they're dropping this AVN are also valid (myself included).

I posted awhile ago my predictions on how the plot would incorporate the morality system into it, specifically how each character would represent a point on the morality scale. This is the approach Bioware took when producing the companions for ME1 (even allowing for minor changes in their morality), but it doesn't seem to be the approach Buu is taking. Specifically, I predicted Eliza would essentially represent a dominantly Light Path MC, with Selena representing a dominantly Dark Path one, but the end result is that Selina is disposed of quickly and Eliza is shifted towards a dominantly Dark Path persona.

IMO, I think Buu would've been better off writing a Kinetic Novel instead of a choice based one, since it's clear he has rigid plans for the role each character will play. It would also work better with his current workflow in releasing 1 update each month in that he wouldn't have to worry about implementing any branching (which is the still an unmastered concept by almost every dev on this site).



Anyways, I've rambled on enough. I'll still keep an eye on this thread to see what direction Buu decides to take this AVN next, but I'm probably done getting involved in any kind of discussion until then.

Why not an Obsidian/KOTOR2 approach instead of ME? There MC could influence his companions and shift their morality depending on his own. That would be the best way to handle Eliza I think. Would take a bit more tampering with plot flags of course. I'm pretty sure Bioware did the same in their Star Wars MMO.

It's the choice that makes more sense. I don't see how she could handle an amoral MC going forward as she is now. I might be missing something but I don't think she knows how MC handled Selena in the dark path. How could a pure nun Eliza react to that knowledge? Now it allows for it since she has skeletons in her closet too.

 

[DementedMan]

Oh boy, I wasn't that keen on the whole vampire thing from the start, but if the dev thinks he absolutely needs it for his story, it's okay.
But did poor innocent Eliza ABSOLUTELY have to be made a murderer?
I would have liked at least the possibility, if you played the light part, that you could stop Eliza from becoming a murderer.

The “severity” of the event could still have been conveyed with “oh my god, I ALMOST killed her”.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Oh boy, I wasn't that keen on the whole vampire thing from the start, but if the dev thinks he absolutely needs it for his story, it's okay.
But did poor innocent Eliza ABSOLUTELY have to be made a murderer?
I would have liked at least the possibility, if you played the light part, that you could stop Eliza from becoming a murderer.

The “severity” of the event could still have been conveyed with “oh my god, I ALMOST killed her”.

Agreed, its too much too far for me. With the pirate update and this, I'm done. The dev took a risk and its going to cost him a hit to his fan base. Its his story and he can go with it where he likes of course. I hope he learns from it though.

 

[micojive]

I feel like everyone here is forgetting something. from the limited knowledge of vampires in this game, we get a sense that the species declined to a point where things like walking in the sun was impossible whereas Eliza was turned into a vampire by a relic created by the original vampire meaning that her level of control at first was going to be extremely limited. realistically killing only 1 person should be considered a feat whereas if others were in that position, it would have been more

Well she proved its not impossible to overcome by being able to not kill the MC who was the original first target.

Now its some "power of love" bullshit that let her not kill the MC but also she is not able to hold back on an innocent.

 

[Dessolos]

Well she proved its not impossible to overcome by being able to not kill the MC who was the original first target.

Now its some "power of love" bullshit that let her not kill the MC but also she is not able to hold back on an innocent.

I agree I think saying or showing love as the reason in the story why she stopped is a bit silly cause of what is shown later shows her love doesn't really matter when it comes to her urges and control. At least to me it doesn't.

I still believe even when she stopped her self from biting the MC she still wasn't in full control of her new urges. It plays out like the cliche in some of the vampire tv shows where the new vampire barley stops their self last second but runs away and loses it the next second. Also the fact she lost full control during training without any indication of stopping herself makes me believe even further she has less control than we think. but that's just my opinion.