New Trend! Fire shots at game developers

[PirateWorks]

true there. the thing why one supports could be of different reasons however. had enough people talking about it where one side stated what you said and the other side stated, they wanted to have the product. hence the reason why such subjective matter like this shouldn't be considered when it comes to raw data analysis (hope i got it right there. it's a bit tough to write in such complexity when english isn't ya mother tongue).


to your first sentence: what exactly do you want from me now? a game that you can get on patreon but not elsewhere (meaning, not leaked) or a game that is on patreon but can't even be played / used after supporting the dev?
if it's my first suggestion: new games / devs, unknown devs, games in other languages (japanese, taiwanese and so on) hardly get leaked or in a slow pace. parts of dofantasy's comics (known for his fansadox comics) are still not leaked yet (worked together with gab to find stuff, but we couldn't). some games do get leaked on specific websites where you need an invitation. not sure if it was 2chan back at the day where i tried to get in but failed to do so, 'cause they were even able to find out if ya use a proxy. but such sites do exist. cisco e.g. lets you use a huge library of books for free use if you have a password and so on for it (very useful to find scientific works that can't be found elsewhere!). a grey zone here where only few are allowed to use it while most are... simply fucked.
apart from that talking about other websites is simply out of the question. f95 was never part of patreon, nor is it its "wingman". f95zone pirate whether patreon exists or not. stuff from dlsite will be leaked here too. if devs from patreon would have the ressorces and if f95zone would be on a different end-domain, they would surely sue this website to ground. but they can't and are forced to live with it, either by participating or by preventing further spread (f95 isn't the only website) by using paywalls and so on. now let's take a look what patreon actually is. it's nothing more than platform where devs can provide their software in work to others. patreons goal is ofc to make money out of it, but devs can also choose to give away their software for free. the word here is CAN. they don't have to. if a "customer" wants to support a dev, he actually makes a contract (the bill you pay will be taxed and you will get certain rights). and here is the big big difference to a street musician. he plays music for free and only get tips from it. he isn't even allowed to make a contract and make money out of it. tips however are okay (up to a certain amount, depending on where you actually live... law differs). guess what would happen if he suddenly tries to sell his music on the streets. he would need to have the rights to do so on the streets and be careful that he didn't steal any music from others (meaning, the music has to be his property). at the end the street musician is ALWAYS providing stuff for free beforehand, always, while on patreon it's not always the case. that... and that alone was what i meant in earlier posts (i do tend to write too complex, my apologies for that). no, patreon is not like a street musician and not all devs there act like one either (e.g. Bruni Multimedia if i recall it correctly). they can act like one, but not everyone does it. hence the reason why i first stated: yes and no. it is quite similar, but not the same. if it would be the same, every dev gotta provide something for free in beforehand and gotta handle their games like shareware (and if we really try to compare it with a street musician it should actually even be a freeware). if you want to know a platform where devs are providing people with shareware (either trials or actually freeware with a message that you can tip the dev) or even freeware, then we are talking about something like berliOS or sourceforge.

about your last sentence: i don't really understand the question you wrote down there. maybe i'm simply missunderstanding you there . write me a pm and i will give ya a more profound answer.

Dude, no disrespect but I already said:

And even if I would say that you are 100% correct and people pay for porn games, making the purchase is still a "choice".

So, should making rant threads in general discussions, under the pretense of feedback, be encouraged? (Whilst you have the choice to purchase/ play) Or perhaps there are more effective alternatives. What do you think?

Look at it again:

even if I would say that you are 100% correct

And you just wrote a dissertation again to tell me why you are correct... without answering the relevant question about rant threads.

 

[Zippity]

All labor has value, I'd ask a refrain from looking at it in terms of who is and isn't deserving. However, remember the patreon method is donation based. As I said already, it is the hat the street performer collects from. That street performer is going out there and doing the performance regardless. People who think that the performer's work is worthy of their currency pay for it. This doesn't mean that the labor of the person who gets less money is less valuable or deserving, just that we operate in a system where you need a bit of a perfect storm to have a viable product.



You seem to have lampshaded yourself quite nicely with that first comment, but missed the point completely. The "alternative means" was direct contact with the developer. A post in the specific thread of a developer you would like to see improve something, a visit to their discord where many, if they have open discords, have suggestion and feedback channels, bug report channels, etc. The problem with creating a random thread in the general discussions/off-topic area is that you're simply virtue signalling.



There is a way to do that which doesn't involve negatively ranting into the void. I've made several threads that are about constructive conversation regarding certain topics, in particular one I made about the prevalence of the retard in lechertown, what about it annoys people from a gameplay perspective, and what could be done to preserve the spirit of such titles while making them more rewarding for players. However, to do that, I had to be constructive, give examples, make an actual argument.

What this thread is about is people who aren't doing any of those things. They're reeeing into the void about how the games they want to play have problems. They don't provide specifics, they throw out bullshit statistics, they belittle anyone who comes in to disagree with them. These aren't discussions, they're flame wars.



One could argue that a mature adult is capable of fostering a constructive and helpful conversation rather than starting off a thread to flaunt their superiority to the people doing all the work. Because that's what is happening in each of those threads. What is being discussed here is the lack of maturity in the people ranting, not the the value in constructive conversation.



Yes, in their own game threads, on their own discords, and within their actual circles of influence. A random rant thread on F95 will only get seen by a small handful of devs like myself who troll the forum outside their own thread, and most of us, though I know it's not all of us, are also generally more than happy to engage with criticism. I even posted in one of the above mentioned threads with a solution to the issues, for which the ranting and raving thread creator decided to tell me I was being too long winded, in spite of turning a full scene change into a single paragraph.



The first valid thing I think you've said in this entire rant. To be sure, it's unlikely to change the fact that people wantonly shout into the void. However, that doesn't make this complaint invalid, and it certainly doesn't invalidate the advice given.


See, being that we are on f95 I can't take a word of your paywall argument seriously. However, your argument is flawed. You aren't paying for the final product on Patreon. You're paying for the labor that goes into the product. If a dev has been making exactly the kind of product you'd like to see from them for a year and you've been a patron, but then they add something that makes you completely not want to support anymore, you cut off your support. It's that simple. You still paid for a years worth of labor who's fruits your enjoyed. That payment is still valid. Just because it takes a turn YOU didn't expect doesn't mean that the labor that got you there is changed or that the devs lied to you, just that your expectations were false.

This is the same with the street performer. You're not paying him to play wonderwall tomorrow, you're paying him because he was playing wonderwall today.



Sure, feedback is very important, but you'd agree that you'd like them to come to you directly with feedback that is specific and helpful, rather than ranting into the void offering no specifics nor solutions, yes?



I don't know how many times I am going to have to say this, but how is ranting into the void feedback? We all know that devs like myself who actually troll other sections of this forum are both the exception to and usually immune from these threads. We're often the ones constructively creating threads that are actually helpful to aspiring devs and not just going around and hopping up on a soapbox. As to the rest of that... ew, is all I have to say. Your cynicism about patreon and your, quite fankly, naive attitude toward the prospects of starting or joining legitimate game design companies is, to put it simply, as farcical as santa claus.

The part you quoted and replied to, with regards to my feedback (and others) on this subject matter, feels very adversarial... After reading a majority of your replies to folks, in this thread, you seem to be very sternly trying to drive home a singular point of view that, for you, is not open to debate, and/or feels a bit close minded to other views outside of the conclusions you've already established for yourself... What was the real purpose of this thread? To scream out against those that have a differing opinion about a given public work, or to start a one sided argument where reasonable discussion and debate are pointless?

I'm not cynical about Patreon… You're just reading into it what you want to, probably in order to drive forward your crusade... For people using it to support their artistic dream while being completely upfront and honest from the git go, without doing anything underhanded, I have no qualms with Patreon and others like it... There are lots of developers that use it as intended and make their money... But I know full well, that because of how it's designed, with very few checks and balances to fight against developers who are dishonest, abusive of it's system, not as up front and above board with their paying fans at all times, and knowing that greed has a tendency to corrupt, I am not a fan of how Patreon does business... In particular, with this specific industry... Patreon was designed as a way for Artists and Authors and Designers, to take in donations to help support/supplement their income while working on their stuff... It was never meant to be a purchasing platform for folks to sell their products under the guise of donations... That's why we have establishments known as Publishers/Distributors... But I'm getting off subject for this thread again, so that's all I'm going to get into, again, about Patreon...

Outside opinions, and that is what they are, OPINIONS... They are going to happen... And not all opinions are required to point out all the constructive things that the developer/creator needs to do in order to change that opinion... The public is not predestined to co-author, co-develop, co-anything any ones works offered up to them...

Definition of the word Review according to Dictionary.com:

A review is a survey over a whole subject or division of it, or especially an article making a critical reconsideration and summary of something written: a review of the latest book on Chaucer. A criticism is a judgment, usually in an article, either favorable or unfavorable or both: a criticism of a proposed plan.

When I do my reviews, it's always an objective review, regardless of who the developer is, what works they've done before, how successful they are or are not, what others think of it, etc... It's usually a mix of my personal feelings, what I actually experienced, did I enjoy some aspects or not, what should other people look out for and/or embrace before trying it themselves, and the list goes on... The argument that all criticism should be constructive, sounds more like an attempt to downplay the criticism that they don't agree with and/or don't want the public to see... Most developers, from my experience, take reviews for what they are... It's usually only a small minority of developers, that I see, become publicly vocal about critical reviews...

If you have a bunch of people not like something, you may get a huge amount of folks chiming in... Same goes for when a bunch of people like/love something... What one person calls a Rant, others may call a lengthy discussion or a cry of public opinion... Welcome to the internet age...

With regards to your comment that a Perfect Storm is needed for viability... In some cases, I agree that can be case, but I don't agree that it should be used as a blanket statement across the board... If a developer is really talented and they produce a grand product, in many cases it will do well, in this niche industry... It may not please everyone, but nothing can ever please everyone... Sure, in some cases, a perfect storm was needed where everything finally came together, at just the right time, with just the right amount of fans, that it eventually did well... But it's always going to be a case by case basis... As it will be in any Amateur driven developer market... Sometimes luck is a factor...

With regards to the "rants into the void"... That would technically suggest that people were shouting out with no reply or without being heard... If people are joining in on a conversation, rant or otherwise, how does that equate to just a shout into the void? If you are saying the Internet is a void, and anyone sending out messages might as well stop, because it's not being heard or responded to... Then how is it you are now responding to those shouts? The void argument is void itself, by the act of anyone responding or joining in... All sarcasm aside, yes some folks do just say stuff sometimes in order to be a part of the community with no real intention of receiving a response... Or sometimes there are Trolls (may they all be hanged from their pinky toes) who just want to cause chaos... Or sometimes some folks just jump into a dying conversation in order to pointlessly prolong it's existence... But just because you may not agree or like things people are saying in a given thread, does not invalidate their existence as just "rants into the void"...

Zip

 

[Ryder77]

Speaking personally, from my recent experience in posting a game, I like the feedback. Certainly, some of it (I feel) is more valid than others and some posters express their feedback rather aggressively, but I would prefer to err on the side of more feedback than less. Just IMO.

 

[Daxter250]

Yeah but of the two sides approach to it, if you want to call it that. I dare say only one got the proper view on it. Those that more into the purchase a product, fails on what patreon is about. As someone else pointed out, you more pledge to help towards work being done on the project/product, not actually buying it. It's a bit like buy into kickstarter, or other crowd funding projects. Or Early access on steam etc. You have no guarantee the actual project come to fruition. People might claim that with early access on steam its just a one time buy in. Sure, but. if I pay like 20 bucks or whatever for early access, or I pledge 20 months to a creator on patreon with a buck a month. Not really a huge difference in that regard.

Btw, you kinda start sound like anything you don't get for free is a paywall, in some sense it is. As buy stuff come with the hurdle called cash Also patreon is just not about games, You have creators from all walks of life doing all kinda stuff. It's all about support the creators. If you support someone doing cooking lessons on Patreon you can't very well call it a paywall if they don't show up at your doorstep make you dinner

heh, i'm actually not sure if patreon, meaning the company itself, really cares so much as to why people should pledge as long as they pledge. it's a company after all (what zippity wrote however made me thinking. if patreon really wanted to achieve the goal there, wth heck happened over the years that they drift off so hard form their goal?). the point still stands that you can't always test out the software before considering supporting, while you can always listen to a street musician and decide later on. i totally respect everything else you say and often agree to it too. it's actually quite interesting how wikipedia describes patreon, calling it a crowfunding membership platform. crowdfunding however means that a large group of people spend their money to support a project or venture. duden even goes so far as to call it a financial model. you see, patreon isn't just about supporting devs alone, it can also act (and does act) like e.g. kickstarter. so sorry, i simply can't see patreon as a sole support platform. it's much more in my eyes.

oh, and ofc. patreon isn't all about games, hence the reason why i used the word software in the last post ^^.

@PirateWorks dude i wrote ya before that i don't really understand what ya want with that the question about rant threads? are you talking about f95zone's general discussion? if so, where the heck do i have a choice to pay / play here on this site? wha...? sorry, i just don't know what you are getting at. i can only really tell ya, that, in my opinion, rant threads in general lead to nowhere. trying to figure out different perspectives, stringing them together and trying to make full picture out of it leads to a much more diverse answer. but that's difficult to achieve, 'cause at the end of the day we all have a subjective opinion that, more often than not, prevents us from accepting others way of perspective. i hope this answer will satisfy you. if not, please just write me a pm or write a more detailed question.

about the essay. sry, might have slipped that. had a harsh day today . got my thoughts somewhere else right now...

 

[polywog]

People have been yelling at video games, and cursing game developers for 40 years. Their voice just couldn't be read in the past like it can today.

 

[DarthSeduction]

f95 was never part of patreon, nor is it its "wingman". f95zone pirate whether patreon exists or not. stuff from dlsite will be leaked here too. if devs from patreon would have the ressorces and if f95zone would be on a different end-domain, they would surely sue this website to ground. but they can't and are forced to live with it, either by participating or by preventing further spread (f95 isn't the only website) by using paywalls and so on.

You are still mixing my metaphor. From the beginning I've held that Patreon is the hat. It is the collection tin. F95 is the place where I willingly post my game to garner attention, it is the street on which I play. "If devs from patreon would have the resources" then they wouldn't need patreon, would they? I swear, you seem incapable of interpreting new data into your understanding.

now let's take a look what patreon actually is. it's nothing more than platform where devs can provide their software in work to others. patreons goal is ofc to make money out of it, but devs can also choose to give away their software for free. the word here is CAN. they don't have to. if a "customer" wants to support a dev, he actually makes a contract (the bill you pay will be taxed and you will get certain rights). and here is the big big difference to a street musician. he plays music for free and only get tips from it. he isn't even allowed to make a contract and make money out of it. tips however are okay (up to a certain amount, depending on where you actually live... law differs). guess what would happen if he suddenly tries to sell his music on the streets. he would need to have the rights to do so on the streets and be careful that he didn't steal any music from others (meaning, the music has to be his property). at the end the street musician is ALWAYS providing stuff for free beforehand, always, while on patreon it's not always the case.

As I've already shown that less than 1 in 10 have absolutely no free release, your insistence on "CAN" is kinda silly. What's more, you're absolutely incorrect about the street musician on all levels. Is it technically legal for the street musician to set up a stall and sell wherever they want? No, it's not really. However, unless their doing so is seen as disruptive to public peace, they're unlikely to be stopped, similar to how I can host my incest game on patreon so long as there's no direct tie between me them and the incest content, just a mysterious patcher out there working tirelessly to change my text. So no, your street musician will not ALWAYS provide things for free beforehand.

 

[DarthSeduction]

The part you quoted and replied to, with regards to my feedback (and others) on this subject matter, feels very adversarial... After reading a majority of your replies to folks, in this thread, you seem to be very sternly trying to drive home a singular point of view that, for you, is not open to debate, and/or feels a bit close minded to other views outside of the conclusions you've already established for yourself... What was the real purpose of this thread? To scream out against those that have a differing opinion about a given public work, or to start a one sided argument where reasonable discussion and debate are pointless?

Ah yes, helping people who mistakenly think this thread is somehow decrying positive feedback is now "screaming out against those who have a differing opinion about a given public work".

I'm not cynical about Patreon… You're just reading into it what you want to, probably in order to drive forward your crusade...

What exactly am I misinterpreting here?

Someone who really wants that to be a career, would go commercial, start an actual legal company, and either sell their services professionally, or work for a company doing this sort of thing, or get out of the donation system and sell their products for a profit... But because the Donation system has the possibility of being so lucrative, because paying fans can be a bit fanatical or forget they subbed in the first place, they stay with donations rather then going pro... Which I always find a bit suspicious... It's not always a case of scamming/milking/etc, but it happens more often than fans think it does...

For people using it to support their artistic dream while being completely upfront and honest from the git go, without doing anything underhanded, I have no qualms with Patreon and others like it... There are lots of developers that use it as intended and make their money... But I know full well, that because of how it's designed, with very few checks and balances to fight against developers who are dishonest, abusive of it's system, not as up front and above board with their paying fans at all times, and knowing that greed has a tendency to corrupt, I am not a fan of how Patreon does business...

And this bit in particular, I made pretty clear wasn't the problem people like to think it is last night when I went through the top 100 games on offer on patreon and this site and showed that less than 10 of those don't have a public release.

Patreon was designed as a way for Artists and Authors and Designers, to take in donations to help support/supplement their income while working on their stuff... It was never meant to be a purchasing platform for folks to sell their products under the guise of donations... That's why we have establishments known as Publishers/Distributors... But I'm getting off subject for this thread again, so that's all I'm going to get into, again, about Patreon...

Outside opinions, and that is what they are, OPINIONS... They are going to happen... And not all opinions are required to point out all the constructive things that the developer/creator needs to do in order to change that opinion... The public is not predestined to co-author, co-develop, co-anything any ones works offered up to them...

And yet, here I am, to offer my opinion and give examples to others on how to offer theirs in a constructive manner. Amazing how opinions are only ok when they are yours, right?

Definition of the word Review according to Dictionary.com:

A review is a survey over a whole subject or division of it, or especially an article making a critical reconsideration and summary of something written: a review of the latest book on Chaucer. A criticism is a judgment, usually in an article, either favorable or unfavorable or both: a criticism of a proposed plan.

When I do my reviews, it's always an objective review, regardless of who the developer is, what works they've done before, how successful they are or are not, what others think of it, etc... It's usually a mix of my personal feelings, what I actually experienced, did I enjoy some aspects or not, what should other people look out for and/or embrace before trying it themselves, and the list goes on... The argument that all criticism should be constructive, sounds more like an attempt to downplay the criticism that they don't agree with and/or don't want the public to see... Most developers, from my experience, take reviews for what they are... It's usually only a small minority of developers, that I see, become publicly vocal about critical reviews...

Yes, and your reviews are well made, constructed in a fashion that gives quality feedback, and placed in the appropriate section. You were never the target of this thread, sorry if you had the mistaken interpretation that you were.

If you have a bunch of people not like something, you may get a huge amount of folks chiming in... Same goes for when a bunch of people like/love something... What one person calls a Rant, others may call a lengthy discussion or a cry of public opinion... Welcome to the internet age...

I'm guessing you haven't actually looked at any of the threads in question then. One, in particular, devolved in the first page to the thread's creator freaking out and attacking not just the devs he targeted initially, but everyone who came in to dispute his stance. There is a difference between a rant and a discussion. Discussion goes both ways, there's give and take. A rant is all take. It is standing on a soapbox screaming out into the void, and then plugging your ears and darkening your vision to any and all arguments to the contrary.

With regards to your comment that a Perfect Storm is needed for viability... In some cases, I agree that can be case, but I don't agree that it should be used as a blanket statement across the board... If a developer is really talented and they produce a grand product, in many cases it will do well, in this niche industry... It may not please everyone, but nothing can ever please everyone... Sure, in some cases, a perfect storm was needed where everything finally came together, at just the right time, with just the right amount of fans, that it eventually did well... But it's always going to be a case by case basis... As it will be in any Amateur driven developer market... Sometimes luck is a factor...

Depraved Awakening is my go to when I'm met with this argument. You can't tell me that it isn't one of the most well produced products on the adult market, and yet, it took a long time to get any recognition, plenty of word of mouth went into that. It never really had a perfect storm, just hard work and good quality. So yes, it's possible, but damn is that barrier high.

With regards to the "rants into the void"... That would technically suggest that people were shouting out with no reply or without being heard...

Are you seriously nitpicking my choice of the word void? Was my meaning unclear or are you the same race as Drax the Destroyer, only capable of taking things literally? Why I chose the word is because the effective place to leave their complaints is with the devs they need to see them. Instead they're making them in general or off topic as if they'll have any effect there. If one gives a complaint directly to the source they have a solid chance of their criticism being taken into account. If one shouts their complaint to the general public, and doesn't allow discourse, but instead shouts down all who see their message, they are merely shouting into the void.

All sarcasm aside, yes some folks do just say stuff sometimes in order to be a part of the community with no real intention of receiving a response... Or sometimes there are Trolls (may they all be hanged from their pinky toes) who just want to cause chaos... Or sometimes some folks just jump into a dying conversation in order to pointlessly prolong it's existence... But just because you may not agree or like things people are saying in a given thread, does not invalidate their existence as just "rants into the void"...

My argument has and always will remain that the issue is not their voicing of opinion, but their inability to do so in a constructive manner. In the thread I spoke of earlier, the creator was dissatisfied with the fact that so many games open with infodumps, but chose to express this in a rather shit fashion. He received a lot of pushback, but I understood his intent, so I responded to the thread constructively, provided an example of a game that started with an infodump which could have been better served with a story based scene, and even gave a summary of how such a scene would carry out. Rather than joy at my having agreed with him, or even acknowledgement that I did in fact do so, I was met with a complaint about the word count of my summary of an entire scene, fully justifying the calls by everyone else in the thread up till that point that the creator did not in fact have an issue with info dumps, but with the fact that he had to read anything at all when he was just here to masturbate. He claims to this day that isn't his intent, but yet, when someone comes with a solution he hates even that.

This is what this thread was about. Feedback is good. Having noticed a negative trend in games and pointing it out is fine. But you need to be willing and open to discussion.

 

[polywog]

Speaking personally, from my recent experience in posting a game, I like the feedback. Certainly, some of it (I feel) is more valid than others and some posters express their feedback rather aggressively, but I would prefer to err on the side of more feedback than less. Just IMO.

From my experience, when people are happy they don't say much if anything. Thanks and praises are rare, but it doesn't mean there aren't more out there who enjoy your work. It's the dissatisfied ones who are the most vocal, and to be honest, they will never be your fans. If they don't like your work, don't bother trying to change them, and more importantly, don't twist your own arm trying to please them. Focus on the ones who like what you do, and ignore the haters. I might make my next game more to those haters liking, but I'll do it under a different name, because it's not something this group of fans wants to see.

 

[Ryder77]

From my experience, when people are happy they don't say much if anything. Thanks and praises are rare, but it doesn't mean there aren't more out there who enjoy your work. It's the dissatisfied ones who are the most vocal, and to be honest, they will never be your fans. If they don't like your work, don't bother trying to change them, and more importantly, don't twist your own arm trying to please them. Focus on the ones who like what you do, and ignore the haters. I might make my next game more to those haters liking, but I'll do it under a different name, because it's not something this group of fans wants to see.

My game was pretty much finished before I started posting, so I wasn't prepared to do too many changes. Having said that, I did get some useful (and emphatic!) feedback after the first chapter, which resulted in a change which improved the game, IMO. So it was useful in that regard. As a general rule, however, trying to please critics doesn't turn out well.