New Trend! Fire shots at game developers

[DarthSeduction]

number 3: f95 is out of the discussion. we two are talking about a comparison between a free musician and patreon. everything else is off-topic to me and doesn't concern me.

Just because the existence of a thing is inconvenient to the argument you've made, doesn't make that thing invalid in the discussion. Developers intentionally leak or place their game on F95 for people to play in order to attract them to their patreon. It is not "just a pirate site" it is the street on which we perform. Your fallacious idea that only what is on patreon is valid is nothing more than pedantry.

You're also making an assertion that the majority of devs block their content completely behind a paywall. You've provided no data to back that up. My experience up against your experience cancel out leaving us with one person saying that the vast majority of games they come into contact have free releases. If you want to argue that in the specific cases of games that are not intentionally leaked to f95 and have no free release are no longer just street performers with a hat out, you can make that argument. However, it significantly narrows your scope and invalidates the purpose of your dispute with my statement.

 

[khumak]

Sure, feedback is very important, but you'd agree that you'd like them to come to you directly with feedback that is specific and helpful, rather than ranting into the void offering no specifics nor solutions, yes?

Definitely. Without specifics there's no value added. If you don't like my renders, tell me why. Too many shadows, clipping issues, whatever. Same for writing. I might agree and change it, I might not.

 

[おい！]

Along the lines of these threads..

https://f95zone.to/threads/attn-game-devs.29470/

https://f95zone.to/threads/why-are-game-developers-so-obsessed-with-gigantic-breasts.29375/

https://f95zone.to/threads/why-dont-devs-upload-or-promote-their-content-on-f95.29362/

https://f95zone.to/threads/consistency-between-dialog-thought-and-action.29343/

And others.

What is this new trend about making threads telling game developers how to make their respective games?

They make games for free. Playing those games is a choice. Paying/ Supporting the game is a choice. You can contact specific developers directly through alternative means. You can make your own game and lead by example instead of correcting others.

I am just curious as to what is the thought process that leads to people making threads like "GAmE dEveLoPer iDIoT nEEd tO Do ThiS".

Reminds me of the average taxpayer Karen that walks into a McDonalds and teaches employees how a mllion dollar franchise should be run.

https://f95zone.to/threads/racial-diversity-in-adult-games.23795/

 

[HopesGaming]

I think one of the reasons for all these new threads directed at devs is because the devs themselves have become a lot more active in f95zone.
And not just in their own game thread. But all around the subsections and being part of the community. So now the community feel that they can be heard by the devs. Be that frustrations, curiosity or simply wanting change.
And it's a good development that is happening as communication between the devs and the base is not only a step towards normalizing these kinds of games but also popularizing.

Another factor is the style of game is slowly changing. Before it was silly sex games. But now there are becoming a broader variety of the genres in the games that are being made. Some are dark, some are serious and some are fun. The story aspect, which was originally frowned upon by many pure porn lovers, is slowly gaining popularity.
This, in turn, makes people feel more invested in the game and the characters. (The number of private messages I have received about people wanting to marry Luna...)

Of course, this also brings in a lot of heat. Now they can go crazy with all the things they really hated about the devs and their game.
But alas- the development is for the better imo.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I think one of the reasons for all these new threads directed at devs is because the devs themselves have become a lot more active in f95zone.
And not just in their own game thread. But all around the subsections and being part of the community. So now the community feel that they can be heard by the devs. Be that frustrations, curiosity or simply wanting change.
And it's a good development that is happening as communication between the devs and the base is not only a step towards normalizing these kinds of games but also popularizing.

Another factor is the style of game is slowly changing. Before it was silly sex games. But now there are becoming a broader variety of the genres in the games that are being made. Some are dark, some are serious and some are fun. The story aspect, which was originally frowned upon by many pure porn lovers, is slowly gaining popularity.
This, in turn, makes people feel more invested in the game and the characters. (The number of private messages I have received about people wanting to marry Luna...)

Of course, this also brings in a lot of heat. Now they can go crazy with all the things they really hated about the devs and their game.
But alas- the development is for the better imo.

I do think there's still a question as to whether or not the threads in question are constructive or simply a pompous player bragging about how they'd do something better, if only they were in charge. I said earlier in this, what a lot of these things feel like is virtue signalling, only with the virtue being "I expect better english grammar" or "I expect choices not to engage in x fetish". They express these things as self evident truths, while doing nothing to actually see them to fruition, providing no actionable feedback, just a "Look at me and my superiority".

I think this thread is less about decrying feedback and even threads outside of the game, and more about creating constructive conversations rather than flinging shit.

 

[HopesGaming]

I do think there's still a question as to whether or not the threads in question are constructive or simply a pompous player bragging about how they'd do something better, if only they were in charge. I said earlier in this, what a lot of these things feel like is virtue signalling, only with the virtue being "I expect better english grammar" or "I expect choices not to engage in x fetish". They express these things as self evident truths, while doing nothing to actually see them to fruition, providing no actionable feedback, just a "Look at me and my superiority".

I think this thread is less about decrying feedback and even threads outside of the game, and more about creating constructive conversations rather than flinging shit.

That is for sure. And I didn't have any particular threads in mind.
There will always be those kinds of people around. Especially the ones with a superiority complex, yet without anything to back it up.
You see it all the time in game threads.

My original post was more meant on why I think the threads that are targeted directly at devs are happening.
And even with all those negative people complaining about non natives grammar, the lack/surplus of fetishes they themselves desire (and hence make threads about it like their desires are the only thing that matters)- I still think the *new trend* is a good thing. Since it also brings many positive dialogues between the player base and the devs.

 

[Daxter250]

Just because the existence of a thing is inconvenient to the argument you've made, doesn't make that thing invalid in the discussion. Developers intentionally leak or place their game on F95 for people to play in order to attract them to their patreon. It is not "just a pirate site" it is the street on which we perform. Your fallacious idea that only what is on patreon is valid is nothing more than pedantry.

You're also making an assertion that the majority of devs block their content completely behind a paywall. You've provided no data to back that up. My experience up against your experience cancel out leaving us with one person saying that the vast majority of games they come into contact have free releases. If you want to argue that in the specific cases of games that are not intentionally leaked to f95 and have no free release are no longer just street performers with a hat out, you can make that argument. However, it significantly narrows your scope and invalidates the purpose of your dispute with my statement.

i give up. it's like talking to a fucking wall. can't even provide data himself but greedily wants it from others (ffs do it yourself. check out 100 devs and make a cut). your mind is already set in stone and there is nothing one can do or say to show ya a different perspective. fuck, setting f95 with street musicians in the same boat... don't know if i should laugh or question your way of thinking. well whatever, think what ya want. and good luck withever you are doing. just a lil' tip in the future: if you don't know your enemy don't brag how much more experience you have. sooner or later you will fall on your nose with that attitude.

 

[Joshua Tree]

i give up. it's like talking to a fucking wall. can't even provide data himself but greedily wants it from others (ffs do it yourself. check out 100 devs and make a cut). your mind is already set in stone and there is nothing one can do or say to show ya a different perspective. fuck, setting f95 with street musicians in the same boat... don't know if i should laugh or question your way of thinking. well whatever, think what ya want. and good luck withever you are doing. just a lil' tip in the future: if you don't know your enemy don't brag how much more experience you have. sooner or later you will fall on your nose with that attitude.

This been a bit amusing to watch....

There is "street" musicians all over the internet, if you want to use that term. After all the internet is a big road to the entire world where you can discover new creators, artists, street musicians, whatever every day. When I first started to explore the internet back in the day, I discovered music from artists I never heard about before. Which lead me to later buy music I wouldn't else.

Now in regard of Patreon and adult games, creators and what not. Patreon doesn't advertise their creators or promote them in any way afaik. That is something the creators need to do themselves. So for you as a user, to find their patreon page, something must happen. If that is a street musician making awful sounds on a banjo or whatever, or you pay notice to a forum post here on this site, or see the game linked over at SVSComics or whatever. It doesn't really matter. Something would have to lead you over to that Patreon page. And from there, it's your choice if you want to pledge to support that creator or not. If their game got a public demo, is just free or what not. It doesn't really matter. Something lead you to the creator and your choice is to support or not, regardless if you think access to the creators work got a paywall or not.

If you look at the number 1 adult game on Patreon, Summertime Saga. its free, wont cost you a dime. I come across very few games that doesn't have some sort of demo, is free, or just have a "delay" of public release.

 

[u z i]

...
(The number of private messages I have received about people wanting to marry Luna...)
...

lol, who wouldn't?

 

[Daxter250]

This been a bit amusing to watch....

There is "street" musicians all over the internet, if you want to use that term. After all the internet is a big road to the entire world where you can discover new creators, artists, street musicians, whatever every day. When I first started to explore the internet back in the day, I discovered music from artists I never heard about before. Which lead me to later buy music I wouldn't else.

Now in regard of Patreon and adult games, creators and what not. Patreon doesn't advertise their creators or promote them in any way afaik. That is something the creators need to do themselves. So for you as a user, to find their patreon page, something must happen. If that is a street musician making awful sounds on a banjo or whatever, or you pay notice to a forum post here on this site, or see the game linked over at SVSComics or whatever. It doesn't really matter. Something would have to lead you over to that Patreon page. And from there, it's your choice if you want to pledge to support that creator or not. If their game got a public demo, is just free or what not. It doesn't really matter. Something lead you to the creator and your choice is to support or not, regardless if you think access to the creators work got a paywall or not.

If you look at the number 1 adult game on Patreon, Summertime Saga. its free, wont cost you a dime. I come across very few games that doesn't have some sort of demo, is free, or just have a "delay" of public release.

heh im surprised. i thought, after seeing being quoted here again i would be ranted to shit or so but i got an answer that i can respect. i coould argue that even few devs hiding behind a paywall still are too many to make a valid comparison but screw it. that lil' topic became a huge dispute that is just unnccessary. so lets just end it withe following: lets agree to disagree. and as long as no valid data comes from either side no can claim to be totally right.

 

[Joshua Tree]

heh im surprised. i thought, after seeing being quoted here again i would be ranted to shit or so but i got an answer that i can respect. i coould argue that even few devs hiding behind a paywall still are too many to make a valid comparison but screw it. that lil' topic became a huge dispute that is just unnccessary. so lets just end it withe following: lets agree to disagree. and as long as no valid data comes from either side no can claim to be totally right.

Well, way back in time, artists and such did get patronage by the upper class, the wealthy and so forth, which in return did get the limelight and recognition + enjoy the art. Some of the most famous art in the world came to be because of such support.

I don't know why we should expect creators to give out anything for free, other than what they chose to share themselves though. When I chose to support a creator on patreon, I do so mostly because I enjoy what they do, whether its create an adult game or do some other entertaining stuff I enjoy. I don't do it to purchase or subscribe to something specific, even though that might have lead me to them in the first place.

Also, wouldn't serve any purpose to rant at you.

 

[PirateWorks]

heh im surprised. i thought, after seeing being quoted here again i would be ranted to shit or so but i got an answer that i can respect. i coould argue that even few devs hiding behind a paywall still are too many to make a valid comparison but screw it. that lil' topic became a huge dispute that is just unnccessary. so lets just end it withe following: lets agree to disagree. and as long as no valid data comes from either side no can claim to be totally right.

Since you said that f95 isn't part of the discussion, here;

number 3: f95 is out of the discussion. we two are talking about a comparison between a free musician and patreon. everything else is off-topic to me and doesn't concern me.

I din't bother to jump into the discussion. But, can you name me 1 game which is hosted on patreon and people cant play it? (by whatever means). I can't think of such an example because even privately distributed games are leaked eventually.

Although playing games made by patreon creators isn't as straightforward as listening to music played by a street performer, the end result still remains the same. And even if I would say that you are 100% correct and people pay for porn games, making the purchase is still a "choice".

So, should making rant threads in general discussions, under the pretense of feedback, be encouraged? (Whilst you have the choice to purchase/ play) Or perhaps there are more effective alternatives. What do you think?

 

[xoxo]

Smart devs will use all feedback and comments, positive and negative, as a weapon to improve their games rather than a shield to defend their game against any criticism they might get. People are free to talk and complain about certain aspects of games and devs should process that information and decide if and how they will use it. Having this kind of feedback and a lot of discussions about game design is what makes F95 good for devs.

The most vocal group is almost always the minority though, they need to be loud to have a chance to change things. So if 5 patrons are asking for unrealistic proportioned characters for example, it might be better stay with your other 95 that aren't saying anything. Some variance is good, but some things don't go together in the same game as they aim to opposite tastes. The more ground you cover the less time you have to each thing.

Anyway, what I mean is that it's not bad to comment about games, development and make requests, what is foolish is to let other people make your game for you. Devs need to understand what's working and what's not in their game based on feedback and their own opinion, but letting polls or comments take the place of the game designer is not the sign of a good game developer. Everybody has an opinion but almost no one has the experience, talent or knowledge to talk about game design.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Smart devs will use all feedback and comments, positive and negative, as a weapon to improve their games rather than a shield to defend their game against any criticism they might get. People are free to talk and complain about certain aspects of games and devs should process that information and decide if and how they will use it. Having this kind of feedback and a lot of discussions about game design is what makes F95 good for devs.

The most vocal group is almost always the minority though, they need to be loud to have a chance to change things. So if 5 patrons are asking for unrealistic proportioned characters for example, it might be better stay with your other 95 that aren't saying anything. Some variance is good, but some things don't go together in the same game as they aim to opposite tastes. The more ground you cover the less time you have to each thing.

Anyway, what I mean is that it's not bad to comment about games, development and make requests, what is foolish is to let other people make your game for you. Devs need to understand what's working and what's not in their game based on feedback and their own opinion, but letting polls or comments take the place of the game designer is not the sign of a good game developer. Everybody has an opinion but almost no one has the experience, talent or knowledge to talk about game design.

I have experienced from other non adult games though where the vocal minority been able to influence the creators that lead to upset the majority of the players which more or less sit still in the boat until it start sink. Also, creators probably more prone to listen to and consider feedback from their patreons. Because in the grand scheme of things they far further up on the food chain. Which not necessary lead to a great outcome either as still, some is more vocal than others.

I agree any creator/dev that let polls and feedback dictate the creation and design is a terrible one. Then you could just as well start to make games on demand for people and tailor the game for their desire. Which I don't really see happening anytime soon, because no one would like to foot the bill for something like that.

 

[DarthSeduction]

heh im surprised. i thought, after seeing being quoted here again i would be ranted to shit or so but i got an answer that i can respect. i coould argue that even few devs hiding behind a paywall still are too many to make a valid comparison but screw it. that lil' topic became a huge dispute that is just unnccessary. so lets just end it withe following: lets agree to disagree. and as long as no valid data comes from either side no can claim to be totally right.

>Be me
>Be a Developer
>Be a moderator on the Developers Hub Discord
>Some nobody on f95 tells me something that completely goes against 90% of conversations with other deveopers
>"nObOdY pRoViDeD dAtA tO rEfUtE mE"

Ok, so I took the time, of the top 30 games on this site:
ICSTOR (Milfy City), and KsT (The Twist) are the only two developers with neither a public release, demo, or activity in their game threads.You can however, download all of ICSTOR's previous titles for free from their website.
Next 30:
Aorrta (The Family Secret)(Abandoned), Eva Kiss (Good Girl Gone Bad), Gumdrop Games (Dual Family)(seemingly indefinitely on hold), Mr. C (Corruption), are the only 4 which had neither a public release, Demo, or activity in their game threads.
So far, statistically you're batting 1 in 10.
Next 30:
Oni (Rogue-Like), and Freakily Charming (Teaching Feeling), are the only two in this batch, lucky for your statistics, 2 of the games in this 30 aren't offered on patreon at all, so...
Next 12:
SerialNumberComics (Tangled Up),Eek! Games (House Party). Boom, there's your 100 games. Of which only 10 are completely unsupported by their devs for anyone who isn't a patron. That means that 90 of those games either have a public release/demo, or have developers who are actively supporting the piracy of their game.

Your entire "Behind a paywall" argument is 10% of games.

Edit, Teaching Feeling is not available on Patreon, for obvious reasons, added camp pinewood, as it was the next in the list after House Party, you are actually under 10% now.

 

[Joshua Tree]

>Be me
>Be a Developer
>Be a moderator on the Developers Hub Discord
>Some nobody on f95 tells me something that completely goes against 90% of conversations with other deveopers
>"nObOdY pRoViDeD dAtA tO rEfUtE mE"

Ok, so I took the time, of the top 30 games on this site:
ICSTOR (Milfy City), and KsT (The Twist) are the only two developers with neither a public release, demo, or activity in their game threads.You can however, download all of ICSTOR's previous titles for free from their website.
Next 30:
Aorrta (The Family Secret)(Abandoned), Eva Kiss (Good Girl Gone Bad), Gumdrop Games (Dual Family)(seemingly indefinitely on hold), Mr. C (Corruption), are the only 4 which had neither a public release, Demo, or activity in their game threads.
So far, statistically you're batting 1 in 10.
Next 30:
Oni (Rogue-Like), and Freakily Charming (Teaching Feeling), are the only two in this batch, lucky for your statistics, 2 of the games in this 30 aren't offered on patreon at all, so...
Next 12:
SerialNumberComics (Tangled Up),Eek! Games (House Party). Boom, there's your 100 games. Of which only 10 are completely unsupported by their devs for anyone who isn't a patron. That means that 90 of those games either have a public release/demo, or have developers who are actively supporting the piracy of their game.

Your entire "Behind a paywall" argument is 10% of games.

KST (The Twist), cost like 1 buck to get in on any download, so .. I wouldn't really call that a paywall, unless you so poor you eat dirt, and then you probably would have a lot of other things to care about than adult games tbh.

Back in the day before internet (oh the shock), when you wanted to buy a game then, you was left with look at the box art, or read some review in some computer magazine. If you look at the patreon pages of creators. Their presentation of what they do and make should work towards make up your opinion if you want to support or not though. Claiming paywall on this is quite silly.

A game you might spend 60 bucks on up front, then have to keep spend in a ingame cash shop to progress or be able to compete in game, then you can be talking paywalls. Or all these so called "free to play" social games. That hit you in the face with need to spend to avoid wait timers or avoid grind's so terrible that to get anywhere without spending would take years.

 

[gamersglory]

Well if you are here on F95 I'm pretty sure you "Try" games before you join a Patreon of a game. When with most games being pirated less than 5% of the people playing actually pay for the games even if they like them. If you don't like the game don't support it. Any good developer is already going to have a good idea of where the game is going way before the updates come out. So changing things is not that easy to do. Some developers tend to listen too much to criticisms and end up stressing themselves over it. Others just burn out from the patreon monthly grind. At this point, I've lost count of how many dev's that had promise and have just given up and just stopped. Most don't make it to one year. also unless your demo is porn free you can't post it on Patreon without it being behind a paywall. but we always release the first version here on F95 so people can get a taste

 

[DarthSeduction]

KST (The Twist), cost like 1 buck to get in on any download, so .. I wouldn't really call that a paywall, unless you so poor you eat dirt, and then you probably would have a lot of other things to care about than adult games tbh.

Back in the day before internet (oh the shock), when you wanted to buy a game then, you was left with look at the box art, or read some review in some computer magazine. If you look at the patreon pages of creators. Their presentation of what they do and make should work towards make up your opinion if you want to support or not though. Claiming paywall on this is quite silly.

A game you might spend 60 bucks on up front, then have to keep spend in a ingame cash shop to progress or be able to compete in game, then you can be talking paywalls. Or all these so called "free to play" social games. That hit you in the face with need to spend to avoid wait timers or avoid grind's so terrible that to get anywhere without spending would take years.

Oh, I was using extreme prejudice to make a point. Each of those games that are listed, with the exception now that I think of it, of teaching feeling... Which I just remembered wasn't on patreon, has a 1 or 2 dollar tier that I presume at least gets access to older versions.

The fact of the matter is, Patreon is the hat, F95 is the street.

 

[Daxter250]

Well, way back in time, artists and such did get patronage by the upper class, the wealthy and so forth, which in return did get the limelight and recognition + enjoy the art. Some of the most famous art in the world came to be because of such support.

I don't know why we should expect creators to give out anything for free, other than what they chose to share themselves though. When I chose to support a creator on patreon, I do so mostly because I enjoy what they do, whether its create an adult game or do some other entertaining stuff I enjoy. I don't do it to purchase or subscribe to something specific, even though that might have lead me to them in the first place.

Also, wouldn't serve any purpose to rant at you.

true there. the thing why one supports could be of different reasons however. had enough people talking about it where one side stated what you said and the other side stated, they wanted to have the product. hence the reason why such subjective matter like this shouldn't be considered when it comes to raw data analysis (hope i got it right there. it's a bit tough to write in such complexity when english isn't ya mother tongue).

Since you said that f95 isn't part of the discussion, here;

I didn't bother to jump into the discussion. But, can you name me 1 game which is hosted on patreon and people cant play it? (by whatever means). I can't think of such an example because even privately distributed games are leaked eventually.

Although playing games made by patreon creators isn't as straightforward as listening to music played by a street performer, the end result still remains the same. And even if I would say that you are 100% correct and people pay for porn games, making the purchase is still a "choice".

So, should making rant threads in general discussions, under the pretense of feedback, be encouraged? (Whilst you have the choice to purchase/ play) Or perhaps there are more effective alternatives. What do you think?

to your first sentence: what exactly do you want from me now? a game that you can get on patreon but not elsewhere (meaning, not leaked) or a game that is on patreon but can't even be played / used after supporting the dev?
if it's my first suggestion: new games / devs, unknown devs, games in other languages (japanese, taiwanese and so on) hardly get leaked or in a slow pace. parts of dofantasy's comics (known for his fansadox comics) are still not leaked yet (worked together with gab to find stuff, but we couldn't). some games do get leaked on specific websites where you need an invitation. not sure if it was 2chan back at the day where i tried to get in but failed to do so, 'cause they were even able to find out if ya use a proxy. but such sites do exist. cisco e.g. lets you use a huge library of books for free use if you have a password and so on for it (very useful to find scientific works that can't be found elsewhere!). a grey zone here where only few are allowed to use it while most are... simply fucked.
apart from that talking about other websites is simply out of the question. f95 was never part of patreon, nor is it its "wingman". f95zone pirate whether patreon exists or not. stuff from dlsite will be leaked here too. if devs from patreon would have the ressorces and if f95zone would be on a different end-domain, they would surely sue this website to ground. but they can't and are forced to live with it, either by participating or by preventing further spread (f95 isn't the only website) by using paywalls and so on. now let's take a look what patreon actually is. it's nothing more than platform where devs can provide their software in work to others. patreons goal is ofc to make money out of it, but devs can also choose to give away their software for free. the word here is CAN. they don't have to. if a "customer" wants to support a dev, he actually makes a contract (the bill you pay will be taxed and you will get certain rights). and here is the big big difference to a street musician. he plays music for free and only get tips from it. he isn't even allowed to make a contract and make money out of it. tips however are okay (up to a certain amount, depending on where you actually live... law differs). guess what would happen if he suddenly tries to sell his music on the streets. he would need to have the rights to do so on the streets and be careful that he didn't steal any music from others (meaning, the music has to be his property). at the end the street musician is ALWAYS providing stuff for free beforehand, always, while on patreon it's not always the case. that... and that alone was what i meant in earlier posts (i do tend to write too complex, my apologies for that). no, patreon is not like a street musician and not all devs there act like one either (e.g. Bruni Multimedia if i recall it correctly). they can act like one, but not everyone does it. hence the reason why i first stated: yes and no. it is quite similar, but not the same. if it would be the same, every dev gotta provide something for free in beforehand and gotta handle their games like shareware (and if we really try to compare it with a street musician it should actually even be a freeware). if you want to know a platform where devs are providing people with shareware (either trials or actually freeware with a message that you can tip the dev) or even freeware, then we are talking about something like berliOS or sourceforge.

about your last sentence: i don't really understand the question you wrote down there. maybe i'm simply missunderstanding you there . write me a pm and i will give ya a more profound answer.

 

[Joshua Tree]

true there. the thing why one supports could be of different reasons however. had enough people talking about it where one side stated what you said and the other side stated, they wanted to have the product. hence the reason why such subjective matter like this shouldn't be considered when it comes to raw data analysis (hope i got it right there. it's a bit tough to write in such complexity when english isn't ya mother tongue).

Yeah but of the two sides approach to it, if you want to call it that. I dare say only one got the proper view on it. Those that more into the purchase a product, fails on what patreon is about. As someone else pointed out, you more pledge to help towards work being done on the project/product, not actually buying it. It's a bit like buy into kickstarter, or other crowd funding projects. Or Early access on steam etc. You have no guarantee the actual project come to fruition. People might claim that with early access on steam its just a one time buy in. Sure, but. if I pay like 20 bucks or whatever for early access, or I pledge 20 months to a creator on patreon with a buck a month. Not really a huge difference in that regard.

Btw, you kinda start sound like anything you don't get for free is a paywall, in some sense it is. As buy stuff come with the hurdle called cash Also patreon is just not about games, You have creators from all walks of life doing all kinda stuff. It's all about support the creators. If you support someone doing cooking lessons on Patreon you can't very well call it a paywall if they don't show up at your doorstep make you dinner