NTR and Women

[ronadan]

If one male starts degrading another male in the same way as in NTR, then yes it would be very gay.

NTR doesn't necessitate the other male to be present tho. a lot of NTR doujins or hentai just mention him or show very little about him. in those cases, the degradation during sex is more like dirty talk (both for the female character and for the audience). in such situations, is it still gay coded in your opinion?

I'm just genuinely curious, why they want women's validation so much?

may I guess? people on social media, more than anything, demand approval. unfortunately platforms like X or Reddit provide a place for these people to create their own echo chambers, hence you see them being so confident about their takes. this is just one of them, and not the weirdest one out there.

tbh I can see it in some cultures where cheating is more of a female fantasy (Japan is notorious for this), but overall? eh, unlikely.

 

[Wankstaindeluxe]

I don't think so, you know bringing up sources is just what people do on the internet to make your opinion hold more weight. If someone just says "well I don't like ntr enjoyers!" Peoples response will be that's just your opinion man. You cite whatever article and suddenly you appear more serious. But I still hold my position that the argument of it isn't super serious. Calling ntr enjoyers cucks or beta males got old so this is the current angle it seems.

If it wasn't that serious, why post the source to begin with? If I say as a joke Gay Men love little boys and then bring up nambla, it's not really a joke anymore

 

[Saerwen]

NTR doesn't necessitate the other male to be present tho. a lot of NTR doujins or hentai just mention him or show very little about him. in those cases, the degradation during sex is more like dirty talk (both for the female character and for the audience). in such situations, is it still gay coded in your opinion?


may I guess? people on social media, more than anything, demand approval. unfortunately platforms like X or Reddit provide a place for these people to create their own echo chambers, hence you see them being so confident about their takes. this is just one of them, and not the weirdest one out there.

tbh I can see it in some cultures where cheating is more of a female fantasy (Japan is notorious for this), but overall? eh, unlikely.

True, Twitter and Reddit are the most toxic place for discussions. You can easily be banned for having different opinion, especially when politics are involved.

 

[Wankstaindeluxe]

tbh I can see it in some cultures where cheating is more of a female fantasy (Japan is notorious for this), but overall? eh, unlikely.

It's just a general fantasy, worldwide, genderwide. Those guys complain about NTR but i'd bet good money they'd like Reverse NTR even if it's the same shit.

And I don't like the idea that japan is special with cheating. It's not. Every source that brings up it is either anecdotal, misleading, or just wrong.

Men are obsessed with cheating that they see it even in Titanic

There is cheating, but it's pretty justified. Rose was stuck in an arranged marriage. Not exactly NTR.

Why men wants women to like everything men do is beyond me...

Because they want to push back on the idea that stuff for Women is more pure. A lot of them also brought up women liking rape, books like 50 shades, and titanic (As brought before). It's all supposed to essentially be getting back at feminists for the male fantasy and that shit.

Thing is, they're going to the point where they're just flat out lying and implying that women by and large are bi girls who want to see Women get fucked. It's to a point where they're just projecting or assuming what women like (Like with a lot of gymbros thinking women like Buff Guys when more of them like lean and fit or dad bods)

 

[Saerwen]

It's just a general fantasy, worldwide, genderwide. Those guys complain about NTR but i'd bet good money they'd like Reverse NTR even if it's the same shit.

And I don't like the idea that japan is special with cheating. It's not. Every source that brings up it is either anecdotal, misleading, or just wrong.



There is cheating, but it's pretty justified. Rose was stuck in an arranged marriage. Not exactly NTR.



Because they want to push back on the idea that stuff for Women is more pure. A lot of them also brought up women liking rape, books like 50 shades, and titanic (As brought before). It's all supposed to essentially be getting back at feminists for the male fantasy and that shit.

Thing is, they're going to the point where they're just flat out lying and implying that women by and large are bi girls who want to see Women get fucked. It's to a point where they're just projecting or assuming what women like (Like with a lot of gymbros thinking women like Buff Guys when more of them like lean and fit or dad bods)

It makes me laugh their thinking that women are innocent angels (women wouldn't be mortal now would they?) because women can be the most degenerate and vicious people too. I do like buff men like Henry Cavill but I like lean and fit guys too, Asian type to be precise. I blame Korean drama and K-Pop for having one of the prettiest men I ever saw.

 

[eaudecologne]

If it wasn't that serious, why post the source to begin with? If I say as a joke Gay Men love little boys and then bring up nambla, it's not really a joke anymore

I told ya, it's not the argument what the post is about. Whatever source, reasoning is just flavor text. When I said not serious I meant they don't really care if ntr is for women, not that the whole thing is a joke. Do you see where I'm going?

 

[ronadan]

And I don't like the idea that japan is special with cheating. It's not. Every source that brings up it is either anecdotal, misleading, or just wrong.

I don't like to go off-topic, but I think some people might find this interesting, or at least thought-provoking. this particular discussion depends on what we mean by "cheating", because the Japanese don't see it like that and that's the reason there are conflicting sources about the topic.

the language have two different words for what we consider cheating: uwaki (浮気) and furin (不倫). uwaki can be roughly translated to "mistake", something like a fling, a one-night stand that makes both sides uncomfortable to think about later, or something done while drunk. furin on the other hand, is a full-on affair. "adultery" and "betrayal", to be precise.

furin is frowned upon, as it should be. similar to anywhere around the world, the Japanese look down on people committing it and the one responsible for it can be sued by their spouse legally. when we say they don't approve of cheating, it's furin we talk about.

but uwaki is a sensitive, different topic. if you ever get the chance to travel to Japan, visit Kabukicho in Tokyo. you'll find tons of hostess clubs, soaplands and pink salons there. just ask the girls if they have partners, and lots of them will say yes. because working in a red-light district (and in fact, visiting it) isn't cheating in Japanese culture.

as long as romance doesn't get involved, it's not furin for them. and uwaki, while showing the weakness of character, is not considered a big deal.

thing is, a lot of time uwaki can lead to romance, and that line between "OK" and "not Ok" is what makes NTR sort of a popular topic there, because it's like playing with fire. "when it goes from a fling to full-on betrayal?" NTR fans around the world might like the domination/submission aspect, or have a thing for humiliation, but for the Japanese it's a lot about the transition from one to the other. that's why you see some Japanese eroge show the girl feeling guilty and shy at first (the way uwaki should feel), but then go full brutal slut (the way they describe furin to be), like a personality change.

so when I for example said NTR might have more of a female audience in Japan, I merely relied on how they view "cheating" as a whole. it's more acceptable there to have fantasies about fulfilling your desires without getting romantically involved. it's totally normal for Japanese women to fantasize more about this than let's say, European women.

 

[MissCougar]

MissCougar Finuee Jaike your thoughts about NTR for women?

NTR is such a bag of BS in and of itself that all the terminology is a mess, and how it's written is a mess, and it's mislabeled and there's like three tiers of NTR... whatever.

The way I see it is this:

For the male, NTR is typically some sort of hot wife or swinger and voyeur situation where the guy is egging her on and then getting the play by play as it happens. It's like swinger/voyeur nonesense and maybe between the scenes he's like "gosh does she still love me?" for like ten seconds before the next public gangbang or something. It's pretty ridiculous. So sure dudes like it because it's not about the torment of losing your spouse but about being a hot swinger. I still think some true NTR from the guys perspective would have zero sex in it, and just be the agony of him as he loses the love of his life, which probably wouldn't sell or be a fun game/ story.

For the women, it can be the same as above or it can be true NTR but we don't care about the guy being left behind scenario. Heck this is even a Hallmark movie comedy at this point where business woman goes to destress from her constantly busy and overbearing city man who is a high profile attorney or something and meets a dude at a gas station who sells clay pots or something and by gosh she hits it off with clay pots maker and leaves high profile attorney behind.

The story is ridiculouslay cliche and yeah, women like it (and I like it too), because it's more about finding a guy who loves you and spends time with you rather than being a trophy or fuck toy. NTR from a women's perspective is like finding love and being loved back by a nicer/better man able to fill some empty void in her life. There is so many of these stories and movies out there and they don't even need to have sex in them to be good or sell to women.

 

[Death Panda]

I need more information. How exactly is it "gay"?

You seriously don't understand how one male sexually degrading another male is gay?

 

[Jaike]

But where is this rumor coming from?

In part from NTR haters finding another way to call netorare gay, the rest seem like terminally coombrained NTR fans. Relevant elements are male defaultism, the inability to understand not self inserting, and low critical thinking skills.

MissCougar Finuee Jaike your thoughts about NTR for women?

For it to work it'd have to drop the male defaultism in the genre and take the female prominent character's personality seriously for a change. As it is it's a genre that goes all in on fan service with the central fetish from a male perspective. I'd be amazed if less than 80% of the biggest consumers are male.

 

[Hagatagar]

but uwaki is a sensitive, different topic. if you ever get the chance to travel to Japan, visit Kabukicho in Tokyo. you'll find tons of hostess clubs, soaplands and pink salons there. just ask the girls if they have partners, and lots of them will say yes. because working in a red-light district (and in fact, visiting it) isn't cheating in Japanese culture.

Here an example, but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.
View attachment jappros.mp4

 

[agelastos]

You seriously don't understand how one male sexually degrading another male is gay?

No, I'm a fucking moron. So, please, enlighten me!

 

[Wankstaindeluxe]

I don't like to go off-topic, but I think some people might find this interesting, or at least thought-provoking. this particular discussion depends on what we mean by "cheating", because the Japanese don't see it like that and that's the reason there are conflicting sources about the topic.

the language have two different words for what we consider cheating: uwaki (浮気) and furin (不倫). uwaki can be roughly translated to "mistake", something like a fling, a one-night stand that makes both sides uncomfortable to think about later, or something done while drunk. furin on the other hand, is a full-on affair. "adultery" and "betrayal", to be precise.

furin is frowned upon, as it should be. similar to anywhere around the world, the Japanese look down on people committing it and the one responsible for it can be sued by their spouse legally. when we say they don't approve of cheating, it's furin we talk about.

but uwaki is a sensitive, different topic. if you ever get the chance to travel to Japan, visit Kabukicho in Tokyo. you'll find tons of hostess clubs, soaplands and pink salons there. just ask the girls if they have partners, and lots of them will say yes. because working in a red-light district (and in fact, visiting it) isn't cheating in Japanese culture.

as long as romance doesn't get involved, it's not furin for them. and uwaki, while showing the weakness of character, is not considered a big deal.

thing is, a lot of time uwaki can lead to romance, and that line between "OK" and "not Ok" is what makes NTR sort of a popular topic there, because it's like playing with fire. "when it goes from a fling to full-on betrayal?" NTR fans around the world might like the domination/submission aspect, or have a thing for humiliation, but for the Japanese it's a lot about the transition from one to the other. that's why you see some Japanese eroge show the girl feeling guilty and shy at first (the way uwaki should feel), but then go full brutal slut (the way they describe furin to be), like a personality change.

so when I for example said NTR might have more of a female audience in Japan, I merely relied on how they view "cheating" as a whole. it's more acceptable there to have fantasies about fulfilling your desires without getting romantically involved. it's totally normal for Japanese women to fantasize more about this than let's say, European women.

Here's the thing, that doesn't sound like a japanese specific thing. Hostess Clubs, Soaplands, Pink salons, those are all basically brothels. Of course, they'd view that as no big deal, it's their job.

Replace Hostess Clubs, Soaplands, and pink salons with Strippers, Escorts, and Brothels and you'll get girls who think the same way. It's cool as long as you don't catch feelings.

Uwaki and Furin are basically just "It was just a mistake, a one time thing." and "I've been sleeping with your best friend."

This is what I meant. Japan is not special with this stuff. It's a mentality, not a cultural sensibility.

 

[Wankstaindeluxe]

I told ya, it's not the argument what the post is about. Whatever source, reasoning is just flavor text. When I said not serious I meant they don't really care if ntr is for women, not that the whole thing is a joke. Do you see where I'm going?

Somewhat.

For it to work it'd have to drop the male defaultism in the genre and take the female prominent character's personality seriously for a change. As it is it's a genre that goes all in on fan service with the central fetish from a male perspective. I'd be amazed if less than 80% of the biggest consumers are male.

I could actually see what that'd look like. It'd probably heavily focus on emotional vulnerability for a guy, with the failure being the MC's inability to really understand their LI.

 

[ronadan]

Here an example, but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

it's ok. everywhere you have different personal takes. but as a whole, your video shows the general mindset, and that mindset is vastly different from what we might be used to.

wanna go a bit deeper into the rabbit hole? in Japanese, the "prostitute" exclusively refers to someone who engages in penetrative intercourse in exchange for money. That kind of prostitution is actually illegal in Japan under Baishun bōshi hō (Anti-Prostitution Law).

but providing anything without vaginal or anal penetration (fellatio, thighjob, titjob, handjob, teasing, etc) won't even be considered prostitution. a soapland worker might perform handjobs, or Pink salon workers are pros in thighjobs, and normal people don't call them prostitutes.

now if you look at what NTR means for that mindset, it gets rly complicated. I wish we had a Japanese user who could go deeper into the topic, but I certainly wouldn't be shocked if Japanese women like NTR more than the average female viewer.

Replace Hostess Clubs, Soaplands, and pink salons with Strippers, Escorts, and Brothels and you'll get girls who think the same way. It's cool as long as you don't catch feelings.

it... really isn't the same. in Western cultures, those jobs will be viewed with a degree of negativity no matter what. outside of JAVs, Japan's current sex industry is similar to OnlyFans. no real penetration. I ask you to think about it honestly: do normal people around the world think OnlyFans models are as respectable as office workers, lawyers or doctors? can a stripper marry the heir of a rich family or royal house in the EU, without people looking down on the couple?

but the Japanese have had Geishas for centuries, basically a glorified prostitution service. it was totally normal for a Samurai to marry a Geisha. it's deeply rooted in their culture that seeking pleasure outside of marriage is ok. you can call it a mentality if you want, but it's definitely not like the rest of the world.

also, before it gets out of hand and bothers others here, I suggest we stop debating about this topic. a dedicated thread would work better, and I'm ok with a personal conversation if you want.

 

[Hagatagar]

wanna go a bit deeper into the rabbit hole?

Don't worry, I am well versed in that.
I already explained stuff like that some other times here on F95zone.

it... really isn't the same. in Western cultures, those jobs will be viewed with a degree of negativity no matter what.

Best example: Rent-a-Girlfriend
Western people go apeshit because of that. And I don't mean because the typical prolonged "romance plot" just to make more and more chapters, which is not even the choice of the mangaka but because of the preassure of the publisher/editors.
But all the western guys calling her cheater, slut and whore, because her job is to go on platonic fake dates (without anything romantical or sexual).

 

[Wankstaindeluxe]

it's ok. everywhere you have different personal takes. but as a whole, your video shows the general mindset, and that mindset is vastly different from what we might be used to.

wanna go a bit deeper into the rabbit hole? in Japanese, the "prostitute" exclusively refers to someone who engages in penetrative intercourse in exchange for money. That kind of prostitution is actually illegal in Japan under Baishun bōshi hō (Anti-Prostitution Law).

but providing anything without vaginal or anal penetration (fellatio, thighjob, titjob, handjob, teasing, etc) won't even be considered prostitution. a soapland worker might perform handjobs, or Pink salon workers are pros in thighjobs, and normal people don't call them prostitutes.

now if you look at what NTR means for that mindset, it gets rly complicated. I wish we had a Japanese user who could go deeper into the topic, but I certainly wouldn't be shocked if Japanese women like NTR more than the average female viewer.


it... really isn't the same. in Western cultures, those jobs will be viewed with a degree of negativity no matter what. outside of JAVs, Japan's current sex industry is similar to OnlyFans. no real penetration. I ask you to think about it honestly: do normal people around the world think OnlyFans models are as respectable as office workers, lawyers or doctors? can a stripper marry the heir of a rich family or royal house in the EU, without people looking down on the couple?

but the Japanese have had Geishas for centuries, basically a glorified prostitution service. it was totally normal for a Samurai to marry a Geisha. it's deeply rooted in their culture that seeking pleasure outside of marriage is ok. you can call it a mentality if you want, but it's definitely not like the rest of the world.

also, before it gets out of hand and bothers others here, I suggest we stop debating about this topic. a dedicated thread would work better, and I'm ok with a personal conversation if you want.

Alright, I'll do personal convo

 

[Wankstaindeluxe]

But all the western guys calling her cheater, slut and whore, because her job is to go on platonic fake dates (without anything romantical or sexual).

Good point, but a lot of those same guys would have a problem with a girl having male friends. Hell, I could easily imagine japanese guys having a problem with that.

To me, it just sounds like a mentality rather than a cultural idea. It's like when people say japan is more group think than america. Sure, until you say the wrong political idea or so. Then group think completely kicks in.

 

[balitz Method]

By his logic, straight male players are identifying with female protagonists that they control.

Wouldn't that be nice. I've played erogames for years and years and I can only think of a small handful of non-otome female protagonist games that were written as though you were meant to identify with her.

 

[Rafster]

If one male starts degrading another male in the same way as in NTR, then yes it would be very gay.

Gays don't enjoy seeing women railed by dudes, only dudes railing dudes. No women there. That's the definition of gay. Maybe it's a bisexual thing? I don't know.

I didn't even know WTF was NTR until I joined here.