NTR is a HUMILIATION fetish

[desmosome]

If the story is entirely female pov and the guy getting cheated on is just an incidental character who doesn't come up or find out at all, then that's not NTR, that's just regular cheating. You'll notice I already said this in original post. In instances of strictly male pov games where the NTR is 100% closed off to the player (which I know exist although they are far less common than you seem to be letting on) I would argue that it's still about the humiliation of being a cuck, because you the player know about it and is presumably why you are playing the game in the first place. To get that realistic pathetic cuck experience. Humiliation doesn't necessarily mean hardcore masochistic torment.

You must be registered to see the links

This isn't NTR? The cuck doesn't know shit. He is literally just there to be a target of being cheated on and to propel the moral degeneration of the female. Basically a trope character to fulfill the premise. That's about the level of involvement of the cuck, as is the case in the majority of NTR manga/doujins. This is just a random one I grabbed. I read a lot of NTR hentai and this is typical. Even if it turns out that the cuck being present and being humiliated is common, there exists plenty of NTR works that doesn't do it that way, so you can hardly call it the definition of NTR. Again, you are just thinking about western cuck porn.

Also, I don't know why you would think the player is being humiliated. You don't have to self-insert, you know? The fact that you think NTR has to be about getting the pathetic cuck experience just tells me you got into the genre from western cuck porn, like BBC humiliation, SPH, cuck chair shit. That's not to say that this kind of theme doesn't exist in Japanese or Eastern artists' works, but it's just one subgenre under NTR.

 

[Icarus Media]

Ha ,you guys couldn't be more wrong .Its not a mental issue or psihologic ,it's biological . Youre spermatozoids actually have a battle and kill other alien spermatozoids. So seeing youre woman get fucked should get you hard as nature means to replace the other guy genetic material. Gelosy ,anger are only on the surface.

Someone has been reading Sperm Wars I see...

 

[MissCougar]

You are talking about cuckold fetish with all that humiliation and rubbing it in to the cuck's face, with optional gay-adjacent themes like cock torture or licking up the cum.

Japanese NTR usually has a corruption focus. Exploring the fall of the woman. Male MC is oblivious to what's happening for most of the game, so he isn't getting humiliated directly until much later in the story as a final payoff for the corruption being completed. Don't get me wrong, humiliation does come as part of the "NTR reveal" near the end of the story, but it's not the focus of the main arc.

So no, you are simply just giving your own interpretation of what you think NTR is.

I think this is pretty valid.

NTR is about losing love and typically more, like having everything and ending with nothing and experiencing the misery of that loss.

The fetish is about suffering and failing and others are better than you. Doesn't even have to have sex in it, it's about the misery and sadness and depression.

Most NTR in video games is like being a creepy swinger and voyeur, and in hentai is like just watching the girl do stuff and the male love is in like the first two pages and maybe has a callout on the last couple pages but is usually gone for all the fun moments.

I don't think anyone would want to play true NTR unless you just enjoy feeling sad and miserable and it's not sexy.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The most important thing that makes something NTR is the guy going "I'm such a pathetic loser, I can't please please a woman, now my girlfriend is having sex with a real man and all I can do is jerk off my tiny dick, boohoo." He's being humiliated, and that's what sets NTR apart from other similar seeming porn tropes.

As pointed by desmosome, this only works if the guy (or girl, because there's also NTR where it's the husband that is stolen, as well as lesbian NTR) is aware of the situation all along the story, what is rarely the case.
But, more important, it only works if the author decided to present it that way. In most NTR stories it isn't the case, and the victim is in fact facing a situation where his/her love interest happen to not be as innocent (sexually speaking) as (s)he thought, and it's from this realization that the emotional impact come from. Therefore, it's not an "I'm a loser" situation, but an "you're a whore" one.

In the end, it's as much about humiliation than, "ahahah, you've seen what I said to him, I totally destroyed him", is. The humiliation is only a scenario that one person, here the bull, made up in his mind, and at no time correspond to a reality.
This being enforced by the story itself, that often present the bull as saying innuendo to mock the victim, but rarely exposing himself. And, in stories where it apply, what isn't always the case, it's the bull who will say this kind of line ("look at me ravaging your girl like you can't", and other, "you hear that, it's not you would can make her moan so loudly"), not the victim depicted as saying it, or just thinking it, nor even believing what he hear.
In short, it's mental onanism, for the bull, at its best.

 

[MaskedAcc]

You must be registered to see the links

This isn't NTR? The cuck doesn't know shit. He is literally just there to be a target of being cheated on and to propel the moral degeneration of the female. Basically a trope character to fulfill the premise. That's about the level of involvement of the cuck, as is the case in the majority of NTR manga/doujins. This is just a random one I grabbed. I read a lot of NTR hentai and this is typical. Even if it turns out that the cuck being present and being humiliated is common, there exists plenty of NTR works that doesn't do it that way, so you can hardly call it the definition of NTR. Again, you are just thinking about western cuck porn.

Also, I don't know why you would think the player is being humiliated. You don't have to self-insert, you know? The fact that you think NTR has to be about getting the pathetic cuck experience just tells me you got into the genre from western cuck porn, like BBC humiliation, SPH, cuck chair shit. That's not to say that this kind of theme doesn't exist in Japanese or Eastern artists' works, but it's just one subgenre under NTR.

Yes, this is explicitly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say regular cheating isn't ntr

 

[desmosome]

Yes, this is explicitly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say regular cheating isn't ntr

Oh, so Japanese artists and devs that are deliberately making NTR content (literally a Japanese genre) don't understand what NTR is. But you, MaskedAcc, know the truth.

 

[MaskedAcc]

Oh, so Japanese artists and devs that are deliberately making NTR content (literally a Japanese genre) don't understand what NTR is. But you, MaskedAcc, know the truth.

Now be honest with me desmosome. Do you actually have any idea whether the author of that doujin did or didn't deliberately set out to make NTR content? Or are you just looking at a user created 'netorare' tag on e-hentai and taking it as gospel?

 

[desmosome]

Now be honest with me desmosome. Do you actually have any idea whether the author of that doujin did or didn't deliberately set out to make NTR content? Or are you just looking at a user created 'netorare' tag on e-hentai and taking it as gospel?

How would I be able to know that? People obviously read that for the NTR though. Read the comments.

https://f95zone.to/threads/ntr-adventurer-alisa-mtl-final-rain-shelter-frog.70287/
Games like this are extremely common. Where the MC is oblivious through the whole game and maybe find out at the ending. There are a bunch of female protagonist corruption games with NTR in the title as well. Clearly, a lot of Japanese devs think NTR happens even if the story doesn't focus on the cuck at all.

 

[morphnet]

Humiliation This is the key point that is always missed in the endless debates about NTR. The most important thing that makes something NTR is the guy going "I'm such a pathetic loser, I can't please please a woman, now my girlfriend is having sex with a real man and all I can do is jerk off my tiny dick, boohoo." He's being humiliated, and that's what sets NTR apart from other similar seeming porn tropes. This explanation also solves some oddities about the trope, like how it can happen with girls in the MC's family or a girl he just has a secret crush on. There's no reason they shouldn't be having sex with guys who aren't the MC. He's not being cheated on or even really cucked. So why is it clearly NTR? Because the story focuses on the guy feeling humilated because of it.

This is also the case with NTS, a sub-section of NTR. It's still about the humiliation , but it's done consensually and the guy wants it to happen. Real life cuck fetishes also fit in here. The guy is getting off on being humiliated. I don't get it either, but hey, some guys are into getting their balls crushed, to each their own. This why so much NTS porn eventually slips completely into NTR. They're way more similar than people seem to think and the humilition 'play' eventually becoming 'real' is an obvious plot progression.

Things that are not NTR/NTS, with this understanding:

Cheating-There's plenty of porn where a married woman has an affair, but that alone doesn't make it NTR. If the guy getting cheated on isn't the focus or acknowledged in any meaningful way, there's no humilation aspect. The focus is just two hot people having sex, like any vanilla porn.

Sharing/hotwifing- Yes, this also includes a girl having sex with other men, with the guy knowing about it and even watching, but it is not conjuring the same emotions. In real life hotwifing, the guy often feels pride in having, well, a hot wife, or at the very least just using his wife to make porn he can watch in an emotionally neutral way. In porn there is often a master-servant dynamic going on, where the guy is more lending out property than doing something that would cause him humilition

Swinging/open relationships- Again, lots of sleeping around, but everyone involved is explicitly comfortable with what is happening. People are just doing it for fun and there are no negative emotions involved. It's easy to tell the difference when looking at porn that is just happpy swinging fun times, and porn that by all rights should be happy swinging fun times, but the author has one of the guys feel cucked and humilated anyway (looking at you entaglement).

This post will surely end all NTR debates on this website, thank you for coming to my TED talk.

What you are talking about is a minor sub-genre and does not represent the genre as a whole in any way, shape or form.

That might be true in Japanese games, but I also read a lot of porn comics and that is not the case there. Most doujins have limited page count and simply aren't going to spend a lot of time on the guy just not having any idea what's going on and not involved.

Incorrect, doujins are self published, they include manga, novels and magazines. The only limit is what the sakuru place on it. Some create long works, others short works and other create series works. Also NOT to be confused with western porn comics.

Regardless, it's still the case that the humiliation is the important part.

Incorrect again,

For netorare (being taken / stolen away) jealousy / loss is the main aim, by having the main protag mostly oblivious but the reader / player seeing hints, the suspicion adds to the jealousy. This can be clearly seen through the "phone call" / "talking from behind a curtain / partly open door" trope among others used. Those are NOT meant as humiliation but in order to have the imagination run wild as to what is happening behind there etc. and so cause jealousy.

In most of these cases the LI is unwilling / forced.

(does have some small humiliation in a few i.e. video found at end of game showing LI having sex but is not a large or main part and only added in a few stories / endings / routes)

For netorase the main difference is that the main protag is willing and even sometimes active in the LI being involved with other partners. The above mentioned scenes are still present and are still to a lesser degree meant to bring out jealousy but more so excitement. This can involve being present and the scenes being more open (depending) or in the form of reports given after.

In most of these cases the LI is reluctantly / actively willing.

(can branch into consensual sharing or to cuck line)

For netori the main protag is the ones stealing / seducing / corrupting other people LI.

In these cases it's a mix of unwilling / forced through to reluctantly / actively willing.

(does not involve jealousy / loss or cuck line)

If people are going to use the term NTR to talk about media (and boy do they ever) and you want to have an intelligent discussion about its complexity, there needs to be some benchmark of agreement about what it does and doesn't include

There is already the original definition. NTR includes all 3 subsets. Those who created it set it that way. Netorare, Netori, Netorase.

 

[whowhawhy]

How would I be able to know that?

author talk page at the end says the author drew it to show change in wife's kokoro and there's not much "ntr", but suggests "ntr"-tagging nonetheless and if the sequel happens it'll be husband's pov.

Japanese artists

author's twitter says they're hongkongese and apologises for not speaking japanese well


not agreeing with the op tho.

 

[MaskedAcc]

LMAO

 

[Saerwen]

Japan really messed up West with NTR it seems.

 

[morphnet]

 

[pantil]

Games like this are extremely common. Where the MC is oblivious through the whole game and maybe find out at the ending. There are a bunch of female protagonist corruption games with NTR in the title as well. Clearly, a lot of Japanese devs think NTR happens even if the story doesn't focus on the cuck at all.

Leo becomes aware of the middle to the end and ends up watching the videos, and in the videos, the NTR humiliation.

What you are talking about is a minor sub-genre and does not represent the genre as a whole in any way, shape or form.

But what is the definition of the larger genre we can call non-monogamous relationships? The NTR family doesn't represent the whole thing, but it's a subgenre, but there are elements that differentiate it from others: Humiliation, and it's not just verbal, it's behavioral, social, and visual, even if indirect, it's there. Or the MC always having a "small" penis (in the game world, since all the other characters have larger ones) is no coincidence; the MC is sexually inferior. In our culture, it's still seen that a woman's pleasure is the man's responsibility, and a large penis is a source of pride, a small one is a source of shame. Netori and the role reversal, where it's the MC who is humiliating him.

In Japanese, the original term and its most direct translations are used. (In Japan, the term is already classified as having undergone Westernization, both for commercial reasons – sales in the West – and for a cultural return of the term, being represented as the Western version of the NTR writing and not 取られる).

Netorare originates from the passive form of the verb Netoru (寝取る), which in turn is a combination of the kanji 寝 (read: ne), meaning to sleep, and 取 (read: tori), meaning to take, obtain, or carry. The Japanese define it (in a free translation) as the act of sleeping with someone who is already sleeping with someone else.

In other words, since Netorare comes from the passive form of Netoru — Netorareru (寝取られる) — we can say that Netorare refers to someone suffering from Netoru (person A), having their loved one (person B) stolen by someone else (person C)… You should understand.

Netorase (寝取らせ), that is, is about the act of provoking, causing, a Netoru, and generally, the one who causes the Netoru is the person themselves.

The general term for infidelity in Japanese is Uwaki (浮気), which does not carry the idea of theft, of taking, or tori (取) from someone else, which the verb Netoru possesses.

And honestly, the Japanese definition or any other external one doesn't matter much to me; the community here is already big enough to stand on its own two feet. Current generalizations are bad for everyone, except for those who hate or love NTR. I love sharing, but I don't like Netorase, Netorare, Humiliation, or SHP.

If you're looking for a partner swap experience, searching here is a waste of time and you'll find it mixed with Netorase/Netorare; the vast majority will involve cuckolding, humiliation, and SHP.

(does have some small humiliation in a few i.e. video found at end of game showing LI having sex but is not a large or main part and only added in a few stories / endings / routes)

The story's conclusion is the grand finale, an important part of the story, and you yourself contradict yourself when it's not in the story. If it were a simple cheat or Li marrying another guy, it wouldn't even be in the game.

 

[morphnet]

But what is the definition of the larger genre we can call non-monogamous relationships?

The context of the thread was NTR not non-monogamy.

The NTR family doesn't represent the whole thing, but it's a subgenre, but there are elements that differentiate it from others: Humiliation, and it's not just verbal, it's behavioral, social, and visual, even if indirect, it's there.

Humiliation does not differentiate it from others, it a trope added to some of the works in NTR's sub genres. OP is trying to use humiliation to define all NTR, which is incorrect. It's like saying humiliation defines BDSM, which would be incorrect. Even through there are some elements of humiliation in some forms of BDSM, it is not what defines it, just as it is not what defines NTR.

You mention verbal, behavioral, social and visual? You just described ALMOST all the aggressors / those "stealing" the LI's.

The delinquent
The ugly bastard
The boss
The shota
The ex-BF
The co-worker
The "Jock" Student
The otaku
The "senior" / Senpai

ALMOST all of these fall under verbally, behaviorally, socially and visually shameful too and it's not just the characters, their actions would be / are considered shameful too.

Or the MC always having a "small" penis (in the game world, since all the other characters have larger ones) is no coincidence; the MC is sexually inferior.

While I covered the whole, you are tailoring your examples. The MC does not always have a small penis, there are in fact many games, stories, clips / videos where the MC has a normal penis or you never see it at all. Your example does not take this into account.

In our culture, it's still seen that a woman's pleasure is the man's responsibility, and a large penis is a source of pride, a small one is a source of shame.

...and therefore having a "normal" / "average" sized penis is not a source of "shame". In "our" culture, it is also frowned upon / condemned to use force against a woman for sex. In ALMOST all NTR having a "large" penis is not enough, which is why those "stealing" the women / LI's need to use blackmail, drugs, hypnosis, potions, rape etc.

You will also find in many NTR works the protagonist / MC has not even had sex with the LI.
You will also find in many NTR works the LI has not had sex before.

Remember we are supposed to be covering ALL NTR, not just a few works / some content.

Netori and the role reversal, where it's the MC who is humiliating him.

Again, only featured in some works, in many the husband / BF / potential LI has no clue.

In Japanese, the original term and its most direct translations are used. (In Japan, the term is already classified as having undergone Westernization, both for commercial reasons – sales in the West – and for a cultural return of the term, being represented as the Western version of the NTR writing and not 取られる).

Which then opens it up to multiple definitions depending on the community, group, person and their interpretation of it and their representation of it.

Is it NTR if there is a FMC?
Is it NTR if the MC sleeps with multiple women first?
Is it NTR if the LI sleeps with another women once, the MC never knows and the MC and LI stay together happily as a couple?
etc. etc. etc.

Then you get people using NTR for all and people using NTR, NTS etc. and disagreeing that NTR is all. etc. etc. etc.

And honestly, the Japanese definition or any other external one doesn't matter much to me; the community here is already big enough to stand on its own two feet. Current generalizations are bad for everyone, except for those who hate or love NTR.

No generalizations are bad from those who hate and love it too. If you play a game where you steal the next door neighbors wife that is still NTR (netori), if a LI has sex with another women in the harem some people will loose it and cry NTR.

At the end of the day though, humiliation does not define NTR, it is not the sum of all it's parts and the OP is incorrect.

If you're looking for a partner swap experience, searching here is a waste of time and you'll find it mixed with Netorase/Netorare; the vast majority will involve cuckolding, humiliation, and SHP.

There are many good sharing games both MC and FMC, there are also many games with different routes so you can avoid the netorare / netorase etc. You should start with come home, it has something for everyone.

https://f95zone.to/threads/come-home-v9-19-16-premium-r-j-rhodes.54521/

The story's conclusion is the grand finale, an important part of the story, and you yourself contradict yourself when it's not in the story. If it were a simple cheat or Li marrying another guy, it wouldn't even be in the game.

Not sure if it's that I haven't had enough coffee yet but I don't understand this part.

 

[hoochimama]

I really do think that NTR is made into a much bigger "issue" here on F95 simply because it's a catch-all tag that encompasses different types of content that just don't fit together. F95 placing all of the (wildly different) types of NTR under one tag was always asking for trouble. I would almost think it was done intentionally, if not for the poor moderators that have to go in and clean up all of the fallout and arguments that result in game threads over this subject

All the posts and views that stem from the confusion created by f95 having that single netorare tag might account up to half the ad traffic here.

It would be funny if you didn't also end up with confused devs who don't quite know who to target with what.