VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 13.1 BETA] [Eva Kiss]

[_Zebra_]

But I personally don't understand the flak that Eva is getting.

Well, I think is quite simple. Some new content is released. You start discussing about it. After a while, you talk about what the future might bring based on current events. When you are done with that, for a while, you might speak about "what ifs". By the time you finish this subject, let's say 2-3 months later, you kinda expect the next update. When that doesn't come you start wondering what is happening.

It's summer, people need some time off. OK. It was a bad week. OK. I am struggling a bit with this part of the story, it will take me longer to write it. OK. I want to do an overhaul of the game so I can push things towards a
steam release. Understandable. I am not happy with this part of the story, I want to change it. Okkk....

At a certain point that "ok" becomes frustration. You were invested in the story, you wanted to find out what happened next, but you don't get to see that anymore. You start wondering why and here is where you go on:
- route A: You embrace the word "complex"; there are so many choices, the art looks so good the dev should take as long as it needs (which in my opinion it's an unhealthy way of developing a game, but more on that later)
- route B: You try to find problems that caused the delay and express your option about them, with or without offering possible solutions
- route C: You pay more attention to what the developer says. Does the developer communicates less than before ? (the weekly updates are no longer weekly) Is there a pattern in the messages ? (I am doing my best. Is the best scene to date. Things are going strong. It's not what I wanted. etc.)
- route C.1: The dev is not the same as it used to, I don't like it, but I still trust that there is no ill intent hidden behind it.
- route C.2: The dev is not the same as it used to, I don't like it and I think it's intentional. "Work smarter not harder" "Win more do less"
- route D: something else

So what is important from all this. People think differently and it would be so nice if they would try to understand each others point of views more instead of using 1st grade arguments.

That can't be denied that she has been slower than usual with this one but there are always bad periods for artistic creators.

The problem is that it is not only this one. The releases were not consistent after chapter 6, ~1.7 years ago. Let me go back to the deadline subject. Deadlines are important. If you don't achieved what you wanted, as soon as you do, you need to look into "why?" and into "what can I do to improve this in the future?". Of course, maybe there are situations where nothing could have been done differently. But most of the time you will find something. For example: it took me 2 extra months to develop Chapter 9 compared with Chapter 8. Why?
- It was summer, I needed a break from work. Could this have been avoided? No
- I had 3 extra scenes to develop. Could this have been avoided? Yes. What can I do better in the future? I will keep the number of scenes constant. In order for me to achieve a release window of 2 months, I need to have only 6 scenes per chapter. If the team will get bigger I will try again with 8 and see what happens.
...

Another important thing is to know when something is good enough. Don't try to draw the perfect art, to write the perfect story or develop the perfect game. You'll never be able to achieve that. A deadline will force you to move on faster, while the "take as long as you need" attitude will not.

 

[Aratorn]

Well, I think is quite simple. Some new content is released. You start discussing about it. After a while, you talk about what the future might bring based on current events. When you are done with that, for a while, you might speak about "what ifs". By the time you finish this subject, let's say 2-3 months later, you kinda expect the next update. When that doesn't come you start wondering what is happening.

It's summer, people need some time off. OK. It was a bad week. OK. I am struggling a bit with this part of the story, it will take me longer to write it. OK. I want to do an overhaul of the game so I can push things towards a
steam release. Understandable. I am not happy with this part of the story, I want to change it. Okkk....

At a certain point that "ok" becomes frustration. You were invested in the story, you wanted to find out what happened next, but you don't get to see that anymore. You start wondering why and here is where you go on:
- route A: You embrace the word "complex"; there are so many choices, the art looks so good the dev should take as long as it needs (which in my opinion it's an unhealthy way of developing a game, but more on that later)
- route B: You try to find problems that caused the delay and express your option about them, with or without offering possible solutions
- route C: You pay more attention to what the developer says. Does the developer communicates less than before ? (the weekly updates are no longer weekly) Is there a pattern in the messages ? (I am doing my best. Is the best scene to date. Things are going strong. It's not what I wanted. etc.)
- route C.1: The dev is not the same as it used to, I don't like it, but I still trust that there is no ill intent hidden behind it.
- route C.2: The dev is not the same as it used to, I don't like it and I think it's intentional. "Work smarter not harder" "Win more do less"
- route D: something else

So what is important from all this. People think differently and it would be so nice if they would try to understand each others point of views more instead of using 1st grade arguments.



The problem is that it is not only this one. The releases were not consistent after chapter 6, ~1.7 years ago. Let me go back to the deadline subject. Deadlines are important. If you don't achieved what you wanted, as soon as you do, you need to look into "why?" and into "what can I do to improve this in the future?". Of course, maybe there are situations where nothing could have been done differently. But most of the time you will find something. For example: it took me 2 extra months to develop Chapter 9 compared with Chapter 8. Why?
- It was summer, I needed a break from work. Could this have been avoided? No
- I had 3 extra scenes to develop. Could this have been avoided? Yes. What can I do better in the future? I will keep the number of scenes constant. In order for me to achieve a release window of 2 months, I need to have only 6 scenes per chapter. If the team will get bigger I will try again with 8 and see what happens.
...

Another important thing is to know when something is good enough. Don't try to draw the perfect art, to write the perfect story or develop the perfect game. You'll never be able to achieve that. A deadline will force you to move on faster, while the "take as long as you need" attitude will not.

As I said, you make good points.

You may have a slight aspect wrong which is that Indie developpment may be a professionnal activity but it's not often handled with the corporate attitude you know ?
I feel like it depends. Some do, some don't.
I get the need for reporting especially with montly subscriptions but you'd have to change a lot of how indie devs work for this to be implemented. But I do get it.

You described one of the most recurrent problems of game devs without realizing it I think, they always got to one up themselves.
For every successful update they release for their game, every time the expectations of their supporters increase. More expectations -> more and better content to do.
Just look at BADIK, the updates became so colossal that we're nearing a year without an episode I think.
Over time, I bet this builds up pressure and stress too.
I wouldn't be surprised if she at one point thought "What if they don't like what I worked on for months and stop supporting me overnight because I didn't take enough time to write/animate/draw..." or something like that.

Though I don't agree, you are making sense and it's understandable that some believe results over anything else.

 

[RedGlow]

can I be honest with you I dont understand this logic so cuck stuff lena good?kinky slutty stuff lena good? and cuck or kinky stuff ian bad? unless its a chad ian?I really dont understand this logic

I'm not into ntr stuff if i am male mc (chad or not). However, i am into almost anything including cheating stuff with a female mc.

 

[_Zebra_]

As I said, you make good points.

You may have a slight aspect wrong which is that Indie developpment may be a professionnal activity but it's not often handled with the corporate attitude you know ?
I feel like it depends. Some do, some don't.
I get the need for reporting especially with montly subscriptions but you'd have to change a lot of how indie devs work for this to be implemented. But I do get it.

You described one of the most recurrent problems of game devs without realizing it I think, they always got to one up themselves.
For every successful update they release for their game, every time the expectations of their supporters increase. More expectations -> more and better content to do.
Just look at BADIK, the updates became so colossal that we're nearing a year without an episode I think.
Over time, I bet this builds up pressure and stress too.
I wouldn't be surprised if she at one point thought "What if they don't like what I worked on for months and stop supporting me overnight because I didn't take enough time to write/animate/draw..." or something like that.

Though I don't agree, you are making sense and it's understandable that some believe results over anything else.

You also have some good points and I totally agree that this ("they always got to one up themselves.") is a problem, especially when you already deliver quality content with mostly positive reviews.

About BADIK, the funny thing is that I stopped following the thread around the middle point of season 2. Way too many comments. Now I don't even remember the sub plots. I know just that I liked Sage, Bella and Quinn (somehow I am always interested in the bad girls that are not that bad in the end). Now, when can my boy Ian take Ivy on a date ?

 

[Aratorn]

You also have some good points and I totally agree that this ("they always got to one up themselves.") is a problem, especially when you already deliver quality content with mostly positive reviews.

About BADIK, the funny thing is that I stopped following the thread around the middle point of season 2. Way too many comments. Now I don't even remember the sub plots. I know just that I liked Sage, Bella and Quinn (somehow I am always interested in the bad girls that are not that bad in the end). Now, when can my boy Ian take Ivy on a date ?

Yeah totally get what you mean man !

Well we'll see, season 3 episode 1 is probably coming late october or early november as it is halloween themed.

As for Ivy, I doubt it's ever going to happen and that saddens me...

 

[lockerxx]

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After my

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announcing I was planning on releasing Chapter 10 in two parts, separating Ian and Lena's POV, most of you voiced your concern and disagreement with that choice, and I can see why. So, obviously, a poll is in order to decide what should be done.

I tried to explain my reasoning a bit, but in the end I also share your opinion and I'd prefer to release both POV together. But at the same time I want to give you content, as much as possible and as fast as possible, both to keep you happy and engaged and for my own sake too. I want to share the fruits of my work, and it gets pretty stressful when too much time goes by and I'm not advancing at the pace I'd like. I try to convince myself quality takes time, but Patreon's subscription model almost demands for monthly rewards, and I just enjoy releasing content, but I want it to be content I can feel proud about. Anyway, there's plenty of reasons for and against this proposed release schedule, but in the end it's you patrons who get the final say on things like this.

I understand both options are problematic and will probably result in some people removing their pledges, but that's just the way it is and I'm fine with that. My goal has always been to create the best possible VN I can and hopefully you can enjoy that, so it's up to you if you want to experience Ian's part of the chapter first (it has about as much content as the entire chapter 5) or you prefer to wait until everything's completed, which I can't give an estimate time-frame yet (at least quite a few drawings from Lena's part are already completed, so it's not like starting a new development cycle from scratch).

So let me know your opinion down below and meanwhile I'll try to keep advancing the work as much as I can! There's already so much I wish I could show you...

Spoiler

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Poll:
Release Chapter 10 as a whole - 80%
Release Ian and Lena's POVs separately - 20%

october for chapter 10? ok i can wait.

 

[RoboticCatDogHybrid]

october for chapter 10? ok i can wait.

More like December bro

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

You must be registered to see the links

After my

You must be registered to see the links

announcing I was planning on releasing Chapter 10 in two parts, separating Ian and Lena's POV, most of you voiced your concern and disagreement with that choice, and I can see why. So, obviously, a poll is in order to decide what should be done.

I tried to explain my reasoning a bit, but in the end I also share your opinion and I'd prefer to release both POV together. But at the same time I want to give you content, as much as possible and as fast as possible, both to keep you happy and engaged and for my own sake too. I want to share the fruits of my work, and it gets pretty stressful when too much time goes by and I'm not advancing at the pace I'd like. I try to convince myself quality takes time, but Patreon's subscription model almost demands for monthly rewards, and I just enjoy releasing content, but I want it to be content I can feel proud about. Anyway, there's plenty of reasons for and against this proposed release schedule, but in the end it's you patrons who get the final say on things like this.

I understand both options are problematic and will probably result in some people removing their pledges, but that's just the way it is and I'm fine with that. My goal has always been to create the best possible VN I can and hopefully you can enjoy that, so it's up to you if you want to experience Ian's part of the chapter first (it has about as much content as the entire chapter 5) or you prefer to wait until everything's completed, which I can't give an estimate time-frame yet (at least quite a few drawings from Lena's part are already completed, so it's not like starting a new development cycle from scratch).

So let me know your opinion down below and meanwhile I'll try to keep advancing the work as much as I can! There's already so much I wish I could show you...

Spoiler

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Poll:
Release Chapter 10 as a whole - 80%
Release Ian and Lena's POVs separately - 20%

Whatever choice Eva Kiss believes is better i am okay with it.

 

[Osodrac13]

I'm sure it will be faster than Female Agent - Crushstation

 

[palmtrees89]

october for chapter 10? ok i can wait.

I'd say a November/December release is more likely.

Here's what concerns me:

"Lena's part should be coming shortly after." - This is a statement from the previous devblog.

"I can't give an estimate time-frame yet (at least quite a few drawings from Lena's part are already completed, so it's not like starting a new development cycle from scratch)." - This is what Eva said in her latest post.

Maybe it's just me, but the second statement really doesn't sound like it's gonna be finished anytime soon. "Shortly after", atleast in my book, means a couple weeks at most, but the second statement reads more like it's going to take several months, which is why I don't see a release happening before November/December. Well, fingers crossed.

 

[Zirael Q]

Did I get it right? The update got delayed a few months again?

 

[Tallyhoe]

The truth is that the decision does not surprise me, in the end these subscription models have always worked thanks to people with a Simp mentality, (I give you everything, but you do not have to worry, I wait for you) in short, people who are not able to see the value of himself, and less of his money, otherwise they would not live throwing money at a coin-op without receiving anything in return, I have supported several on patreon, but I only pay for the product, comic release or game updates, I pay the membership and I'm leaving, until they show the results of the work again, but I'm not going to let them take me out of "The idiot who gives me money", they want money, so let them earn it. But pay month by month, to see 3 posts per month where they tell you, look at an image and shut up.

PS: I'm not a hate of Eva, on the contrary I like her games, I'm a hate of the patreons that created that system where you pay but you don't get anything, a system that has ruined a lot of good games.
Not demanding anything from developers is what creates developers like ICSTOR.
I really like this developer, so I don't want to see it being an ICSTOR 30.0.

Do you even know what the word 'Patron' in Patreon means?

 

[Solomon Grundy]

But these guys seem to provoke a conflict every damn time.

For many of them, that's their goal. Which is why it's best to just ignore them, they get bored and go away.

 

[The_Searcher]

Did I get it right? The update got delayed a few months again?

Yep, Ian part is finished and it's Lena part for the next months.

 

[Jehuty206]

Sad.

 

[Ceesko]

According to the charts, Eva is losing patrons each month and since a few months ago she lost over 300 patrons. I just cancelled my own subscription yesterday due to the mental attitude of other obsessive fans who want everyone to wait with them instead of releasing part of the chapter now (they will have to wait the same time anyway). Really crazy attitude if you ask me.

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[The_Searcher]

According to the charts, Eva is losing patrons each month and since a few months ago she lost over 300 patrons. I just cancelled my own subscription yesterday due to the mental attitude of other obsessive fans who want everyone to wait with them instead of releasing part of the chapter now (they will have to wait the same time anyway). Really crazy attitude if you ask me.

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Looking at the graph, at the start of each month, she loses patreons but during all the month recovers patreons and then she loses again patreons at the start of the next month.

Is this the normal flux in patreon?

 

[Ceesko]

Looking at the graph, at the start of each month, she loses patreons but during all the month recovers patreons and then she loses again patreons at the start of the next month.

Is this the normal flux in patreon?

It is normal flux. But if you look at start of the year, from April she had around 2800 patrons, now last month capped at around 2400 give or take. She lost hundreds of patrons in the months between. That is a big number, and she does not have that many patrons to begin with.

 

[dundun]

It is normal flux. But if you look at start of the year, from April she had around 2800 patrons, now last month capped at around 2400 give or take. She lost hundreds of patrons in the months between. That is a big number, and she does not have that many patrons to begin with.

Maybe because in April she released the last update, driving up her subscriptions? Why not, if you are really interested in comparable data, compare Aug 11, 2021 with Aug 11, 2022? That is 2223 to 2198. So she lost 25 patreons in one year, or a whooping 1.12 percent. Her downfall clearly is imminent!

 

[patachoucs]

According to the charts, Eva is losing patrons each month and since a few months ago she lost over 300 patrons. I just cancelled my own subscription yesterday due to the mental attitude of other obsessive fans who want everyone to wait with them instead of releasing part of the chapter now (they will have to wait the same time anyway). Really crazy attitude if you ask me.

You must be registered to see the links

Oh yeah, those pesky 80% of obsessive fans (amongst those who voted of course, ie close to 800 people) . They're a plague, truly.