VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 13.1 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[patachoucs]

The amount of salt here related to the overwhelming majority of patreons' decision is SOOOO satisfying...

(and yes, I'm a patreon of hers, and I picked "playing a full update")

 

[The_Searcher]

The amount of salt here related to the overwhelming majority of patreons' decision is SOOOO satisfying...

(and yes, I'm a patreon of hers, and I picked "playing a full update")

This reaction explains a lot.

 

[sauron93]

The amount of salt here related to the overwhelming majority of patreons' decision is SOOOO satisfying...

(and yes, I'm a patreon of hers, and I picked "playing a full update")

Ah.. The classic mentality of " I can't have it, so u shouldn't either ".. I don't mind waiting.. But this choice from patrons will definitely lose pledges, while the other option wouldn't have, imo

 

[Pede rasta 1]

There are other, hardworking devs out there who have much better work ethic and regular release date, without the need of making melodrama or excuses.

well, good for you, that's what people who think about how bad eva is should do, contribute, to give their opinion and stop contributing if they don't like it.
I will continue contributing, so I can continue giving, my opinion and I am glad that this time my vote has been the majority, so I will wait as I wished.

 

[Pede rasta 1]

Ah.. The classic mentality of " I can't have it, so u shouldn't either ".. I don't mind waiting.. But this choice from patrons will definitely lose pledges, while the other option wouldn't have, imo

next time be patreon and vote

 

[patachoucs]

Ah.. The classic mentality of " I can't have it, so u shouldn't either ".. I don't mind waiting.. But this choice from patrons will definitely lose pledges, while the other option wouldn't have, imo

Nope. Not even close. I don't care about that, you guys will continue to pirate the game anyway. It's the nature of the beast.

What does get to me though is the insane amount of, shall I say complaining instead of "bitching" even tho that's really what it is, that has been going on as of late. Some people want everything yesterday, without any ideas of how creative processes work at all, and no regard to the dev's vision, work, and health (be it mental or physical).

I for one voted for a later update because I knew Eva decided to do that because she felt peer pressured to release something, anything. But I felt it was hardly ideal and not a good precedent to create. I'd rather have updates be out when they're ready.

I'm glad she decided to have a vote. I would have accepted the result, whichever it was. But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one of her patreons, far from it (80% still), thinking it best to be patient. And have it when it's ready.

You always have a choice to stop supporting her if you're not happy with her work, and that's absolutely fair. That is, after all, what Patreon is all about.

What I can't stand is the sheer entitlement of some here who have never nor will ever pay for anything, support any devs, call them "lazy" and insult their work/work ethic. And for that, I'm taking great joy to see tears and read that they feel like they got cockblocked.

I guess if you want to actually weigh on what happens on the development of ORS, you should actually stop being cheap. And support devs.

 

[The_Searcher]

Oh if it was close I would have buddy.. It's pointless supporting a project that only caters to people who like throwing money and waiting for years for an update lol.. At this point I don't even blame Eva

It's totally easy money, judging by certain comments. We have the gaming world we deserve.

 

[Geralt From Rivia]

The amount of salt here related to the overwhelming majority of patreons' decision is SOOOO satisfying...

(and yes, I'm a patreon of hers, and I picked "playing a full update")

I'm a F95 pirate and I fully support this desision.It was an example of democratic voting. Doing a whole update instead of a piece by piece is smart because a game with two main characters can't work piece by piece, it kills the interaction and atmosphere between Lena and Ian. I'm generally not a fan of the fact that patrons tell the developer how to make a game, but in this case, she herself asked the opinion of subscribers. And the decision was right, it's good that you convinced her to release a whole chapter.
And the whiners will certainly cry, some people are unhappy with life, with everything. I feel that the drama in the comments will start again and so on circlejerking until the next update.

Our Red String comment section today and in the coming days:

 

[sauron93]

Nope. Not even close. I don't care about that, you guys will continue to pirate the game anyway. It's the nature of the beast.

What does get to me though is the insane amount of, shall I say complaining instead of "bitching" even tho that's really what it is, that has been going on as of late. Some people want everything yesterday, without any ideas of how creative processes work at all, and no regard to the dev's vision, work, and health (be it mental or physical).

I for one voted for a later update because I knew Eva decided to do that because she felt peer pressured to release something, anything. But I felt it was hardly ideal and not a good precedent to create. I'd rather have updates be out when they're ready.

I'm glad she decided to have a vote. I would have accepted the result, whichever it was. But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one of her patreons, far from it (80% still), thinking it best to be patient. And have it when it's ready.

You always have a choice to stop supporting her if you're not happy with her work, and that's absolutely fair. That is, after all, what Patreon is all about.

What I can't stand is the sheer entitlement of some here who have never nor will ever pay for anything, support any devs, call them "lazy" and insult their work/work ethic. And for that, I'm taking great joy to see tears and read that they feel like they got cockblocked.

I guess if you want to actually weigh on what happens on the development of ORS, you should actually stop being cheap. And support devs.

Well.. All I want to say is, the dev or the fans supporting her decision shouldn't have a problem with people venting or voicing their frustrations here. Like u said, this is a pirate forum after all.. As long as they don't personally msg the dev or spam the discord server, it's fine imo..

 

[InkAndSaliva]

call them "lazy" and insult their work/work ethic

100% agreed. There's no bigger sign to me that someone's criticism in the gaming world is worthless than when they accuse devs, particularly indie devs, of being "lazy". Shows a shocking amount of ignorance and entitlement.

 

[Pede rasta 1]

As much as it is a pirate forum, and above all because it is a pirate forum, I want to read about the game, its theories or see the works of the fans, I do not want to see complaints from people who do not even contribute as if something is owed to them. I accept that from time to time someone complains but for days I have only seen very annoying whining

Well.. All I want to say is, the dev or the fans supporting her decision shouldn't have a problem with people venting or voicing their frustrations here. Like u said, this is a pirate forum after all.. As long as they don't personally msg the dev or spam the discord server, it's fine imo..

 

[RenGames69]

I really love Eva's games. I think they're the best adult games (female protagonist) . There's nothing even close. But If I understand she's working on it full time? I just don't understand how can this take so long if you have few hours daily to work. If she have other job, working only weekends okay my bad, but she make quite a good money. So she probably working full time on it. Maybe she's not enjoying it anymore. I think it's more possible that she's just lost passion for making this. Who knows.

 

[The_Searcher]

100% agreed. There's no bigger sign to me that someone's criticism in the gaming world is worthless than when they accuse devs, particularly indie devs, of being "lazy". Shows a shocking amount of ignorance and entitlement.

Say that to the indie devs of Salt & Sacrifice and Axiom Verge 2.

Both games are sequels of great indie games and the sequels fails in almost every aspect. By your own philosophy we cannot criticize that because it's worthless. Astounding.

 

[rj677]

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After my

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announcing I was planning on releasing Chapter 10 in two parts, separating Ian and Lena's POV, most of you voiced your concern and disagreement with that choice, and I can see why. So, obviously, a poll is in order to decide what should be done.

I tried to explain my reasoning a bit, but in the end I also share your opinion and I'd prefer to release both POV together. But at the same time I want to give you content, as much as possible and as fast as possible, both to keep you happy and engaged and for my own sake too. I want to share the fruits of my work, and it gets pretty stressful when too much time goes by and I'm not advancing at the pace I'd like. I try to convince myself quality takes time, but Patreon's subscription model almost demands for monthly rewards, and I just enjoy releasing content, but I want it to be content I can feel proud about. Anyway, there's plenty of reasons for and against this proposed release schedule, but in the end it's you patrons who get the final say on things like this.

I understand both options are problematic and will probably result in some people removing their pledges, but that's just the way it is and I'm fine with that. My goal has always been to create the best possible VN I can and hopefully you can enjoy that, so it's up to you if you want to experience Ian's part of the chapter first (it has about as much content as the entire chapter 5) or you prefer to wait until everything's completed, which I can't give an estimate time-frame yet (at least quite a few drawings from Lena's part are already completed, so it's not like starting a new development cycle from scratch).

So let me know your opinion down below and meanwhile I'll try to keep advancing the work as much as I can! There's already so much I wish I could show you...

Spoiler

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Poll:
Release Chapter 10 as a whole - 80%
Release Ian and Lena's POVs separately - 20%

Well, I havent posted in f95 in a long time... And even more time as passed since I posted my last of 2 post (I think) I have made in this thread. But I have been keeping a close eye on this games development, more so now because of Evas last status report.

First of all, let me make some things clear:1st Im a long term pirate, so Im not assuming myself as someone paying in patreon, 2nd I think Eva is one of the greatest AVN devs of ALL TIME, let alone on the present and 3rd these are my opnions and you can disagree with them if you would like

I think people dont realize exactly how long have we been waiting for a new story update to be released. Last update was almost 4 months ago (more that 4 months if we count the alphas and betas) and it was a rework that, lets be honest, didnt add much to the game even though it was masterfully done. The last STORY update happened at November 10th, 9 months ago....

Eva did the right thing as a dev when she gave us an option for the long time waited and also when she identified that there were 2 different opinions and made a poll, that shows how great of a dev she is and how shes a "woman of the people"

But when I read stuff like "its worth the wait", I get so confused ... The majority of patreons would rather wait another (lets say for the sake of argument) 2 months to get both paths than to receive Ians NOW and wait the same 2 months for the Lena path. You are going to wait the exact same time, so why not receive 1 now. And do you really think that Eva would do this if it distorted the whole time continuity of the game/chapter??? if so, you are essentially calling Eva stupid because she was the one to suggest it ... This game is "worth the wait", but lets not wait unnecessarily people

And then you read stuff like "what if she wants to change some things after the lena path"... Dont people realize that we are always gonna get alphas and betas? Those "changes" will most likely happen with or without the split update because Eva is a perfectionist, so thats why I know we are going to have changes regardless, we dont need a full update to know thats gonna happen... People acting like over 90% of us are not replaying the whole chapter when lena path would release

Eva needs to get back into her groove and seeing people enjoying what she has been working on for this long ass time could just be the motivation she needs, not to mention the fact that when you are so immersed in your work a second opinion (in this case thousands) could be useful ... Patreons do what they gotta do but Eva has to be confident and be the 1 to identify whats the best course of action in these kinds of situations... if that doesnt happen its just harming her with pressure and doubts, which in turn results in more time elapsed to get us the update which results in pressure and doubts and the cycle just continues

But like I said, Im just a pirate that has an opinion about what and how a patreon should do or act, so call me a hypocrite for that if you want... or you can see this as me being a fan and making constructive criticism to one of the best devs around

PS: If Eva Kiss ever reads this I hope she realizes that this post isnt meant to be an "attack" to her or her patreons, because that wasnt my intention... Well, maybe an attack to her brain because of the sheer size of the post which I apologize

 

[Trainer7]

I've played enough (and paid enough for) half finished games and updates to know that quality is worth the wait from good devs. As far as I'm concerned Eva should take all the time she needs to do it right; I got other things to work on in the interim.

 

[Geralt From Rivia]

Well, I havent posted in f95 in a long time... And even more time as passed since I posted my last of 2 post (I think) I have made in this thread. But I have been keeping a close eye on this games development, more so now because of Evas last status report.

First of all, let me make some things clear:1st Im a long term pirate, so Im not assuming myself as someone paying in patreon, 2nd I think Eva is one of the greatest AVN devs of ALL TIME, let alone on the present and 3rd these are my opnions and you can disagree with them if you would like

I think people dont realize exactly how long have we been waiting for a new story update to be released. Last update was almost 4 months ago (more that 4 months if we count the alphas and betas) and it was a rework that, lets be honest, didnt add much to the game even though it was masterfully done. The last STORY update happened at November 10th, 9 months ago....

Eva did the right thing as a dev when she gave us an option for the long time waited and also when she identified that there were 2 different opinions and made a poll, that shows how great of a dev she is and how shes a "woman of the people"

But when I read stuff like "its worth the wait", I get so confused ... The majority of patreons would rather wait another (lets say for the sake of argument) 2 months to get both paths than to receive Ians NOW and wait the same 2 months for the Lena path. You are going to wait the exact same time, so why not receive 1 now. And do you really think that Eva would do this if it distorted the whole time continuity of the game/chapter??? if so, you are essentially calling Eva stupid because she was the one to suggest it ... This game is "worth the wait", but lets not wait unnecessarily people

And then you read stuff like "what if she wants to change some things after the lena path"... Dont people realize that we are always gonna get alphas and betas? Those "changes" will most likely happen with or without the split update because Eva is a perfectionist, so thats why I know we are going to have changes regardless, we dont need a full update to know thats gonna happen... People acting like over 90% of us are not replaying the whole chapter when lena path would release

Eva needs to get back into her groove and seeing people enjoying what she has been working on for this long ass time could just be the motivation she needs, not to mention the fact that when you are so immersed in your work a second opinion (in this case thousands) could be useful ... Patreons do what they gotta do but Eva has to be confident and be the 1 to identify whats the best course of action in these kinds of situations... if that doesnt happen its just harming her with pressure and doubts, which in turn results in more time elapsed to get us the update which results in pressure and doubts and the cycle just continues

But like I said, Im just a pirate that has an opinion about what and how a patreon should do or act, so call me a hypocrite for that if you want... or you can see this as me being a fan and making constructive criticism to one of the best devs around

PS: If Eva Kiss ever reads this I hope she realizes that this post isnt meant to be an "attack" to her or her patreons, because that wasnt my intention... Well, maybe an attack to her brain because of the sheer size of the post which I apologize

Nice profile picture. I see you are a man of culture


I'll give one more reason "why" not to release the game in parts. Because after the release of Chapter 10 Ian alpha will be Chapter 10 Ian beta and only then the final. As you said, there will always be alphas and betas, and after the release in parts - too. And this is additional time for polishing the game, removing bugs, fixing minor flaws.
But now she doesn't have to do that and Eva is completely focused on Lena's part. Two or three weeks saved.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

As much as it is a pirate forum, and above all because it is a pirate forum, I want to read about the game, its theories or see the works of the fans, I do not want to see complaints from people who do not even contribute as if something is owed to them. I accept that from time to time someone complains but for days I have only seen very annoying whining

And now you've gone and summoned a bunch of neckbeards to come and throw themselves on fainting couches and play victim. "Oh you awful monsters won't even let me post my opinions on the game! For shame!!"

It's as tiresome as it is predictable.

 

[spar]

The truth is that the decision does not surprise me, in the end these subscription models have always worked thanks to people with a Simp mentality, (I give you everything, but you do not have to worry, I wait for you) in short, people who are not able to see the value of himself, and less of his money, otherwise they would not live throwing money at a coin-op without receiving anything in return, I have supported several on patreon, but I only pay for the product, comic release or game updates, I pay the membership and I'm leaving, until they show the results of the work again, but I'm not going to let them take me out of "The idiot who gives me money", they want money, so let them earn it. But pay month by month, to see 3 posts per month where they tell you, look at an image and shut up.

PS: I'm not a hate of Eva, on the contrary I like her games, I'm a hate of the patreons that created that system where you pay but you don't get anything, a system that has ruined a lot of good games.
Not demanding anything from developers is what creates developers like ICSTOR.
I really like this developer, so I don't want to see it being an ICSTOR 30.0.

 

[Aratorn]

The truth is that the decision does not surprise me, in the end these subscription models have always worked thanks to people with a Simp mentality, (I give you everything, but you do not have to worry, I wait for you) in short, people who are not able to see the value of himself, and less of his money, otherwise they would not live throwing money at a coin-op without receiving anything in return, I have supported several on patreon, but I only pay for the product, comic release or game updates, I pay the membership and I'm leaving, until they show the results of the work again, but I'm not going to let them take me out of "The idiot who gives me money", they want money, so let them earn it. But pay month by month, to see 3 posts per month where they tell you, look at an image and shut up.

PS: I'm not a hate of Eva, on the contrary I like her games, I'm a hate of the patreons that created that system where you pay but you don't get anything, a system that has ruined a lot of good games.
Not demanding anything from developers is what creates developers like ICSTOR.
I really like this developer, so I don't want to see it being an ICSTOR 30.0.

True, you make good points.

You did point the finger at the issue, the two main factors of money. Everything money related has always and always will relate to two key points: confidence and stability.

In the indie game developpment, those are very scarce to begin with because you're forced to put your confidence in an unkwown entity that, as you said, isn't bound by obligations with the actual patreon system. The stability of said developper(s)'s work ethic, consistency, well-being, pace... can't be verified except for their patreon/discord posts. This single source of feedback may create a lack of trust and an abuse of this trust by the ill-intentioned devs you spoke about, and there are some that is true.

But I personally don't understand the flak that Eva is getting.
That can't be denied that she has been slower than usual with this one but there are always bad periods for artistic creators. Eiichiro Oda has significantally reduced his pace of drawing and writing for One Piece but no one is accusing of milking the franchise's money through the manga sales and anime/film adaptations because of this added time.
He took more time because he needs it, what you should ask yourself in this case is :
Is there really no confidence and stability to be found in this project ?

If your answer is yes, alright then ! But if your answer is no, what's the cost of waiting for the next release to make a judgement and pointing a finger with semi-accusations ?

i'm not saying this in a patronizing way by the way, just my thoughts !

Edit: Of course you can do what you want with your own money as patreon !

 

[Doppelgang]

Nope. Not even close. I don't care about that, you guys will continue to pirate the game anyway. It's the nature of the beast.

What does get to me though is the insane amount of, shall I say complaining instead of "bitching" even tho that's really what it is, that has been going on as of late. Some people want everything yesterday, without any ideas of how creative processes work at all, and no regard to the dev's vision, work, and health (be it mental or physical).

I for one voted for a later update because I knew Eva decided to do that because she felt peer pressured to release something, anything. But I felt it was hardly ideal and not a good precedent to create. I'd rather have updates be out when they're ready.

I'm glad she decided to have a vote. I would have accepted the result, whichever it was. But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one of her patreons, far from it (80% still), thinking it best to be patient. And have it when it's ready.

You always have a choice to stop supporting her if you're not happy with her work, and that's absolutely fair. That is, after all, what Patreon is all about.

What I can't stand is the sheer entitlement of some here who have never nor will ever pay for anything, support any devs, call them "lazy" and insult their work/work ethic. And for that, I'm taking great joy to see tears and read that they feel like they got cockblocked.

I guess if you want to actually weigh on what happens on the development of ORS, you should actually stop being cheap. And support devs.

There’s two things I think are slightly lost among the many (good) arguments for why she shouldn’t release it in two parts. First of all: I’m not so sure releasing Ian’s part now would’ve affected the development that much. It sounds like the plan always was to have just that one POV switch, so it likely wouldn’t involve much more than doing some polishing and testing on Ian’s part now instead of later.

Secondly: Even though the original decision probably was affected by the pressure Eva feels to release something, she’s also mentioned several times how much she loves to finally share the updates with her followers, and how frustrating it is that so much time passes without getting to share anything. Eva said it wasn’t the way she envisioned it, but I didn’t understand it as a solution she was solely considering for the patreons’ sake.

It wouldn’t have been ideal to do it the way she considered now, as something that was announced suddenly and she probably hadn’t planned on herself either until recently. But for future updates I don’t think it would be such a bad idea to consider something similar. Either splitting it up in one update for each protagonist, or finding another way to structure the story that makes it possible to release shorter chapters. I’ve been opposed to that earlier (and I’m still ambivalent to it), but with this update we’re probably ending at a development cycle of six–seven months (something between a rough estimate and just a guess), and that is a pretty long time to wait, even if the reason is that the game is absurdly complex and the chapters are very big.

I voted to release Ian’s part now, and I obviously agree that Eva and/or the majority should get to decide. But there’s a whole bunch of aspects to balance in how to decide the release schedule—making a game that is true to Eva’s vision, and is as good as possible; getting regular releases; finding a way to keep the patreons happy and ideally recruiting new ones; Eva making sure that the job doesn’t get completely overwhelming and she experiences another burnout. That necessarily calls for some pragmatism in one direction or another, and I think it would be wise for Eva to consider before the next chapter if there’s any changes she could make that all in all makes things easier, even if it involves some kind of small compromise to the vision of the game. I can’t speak for Eva, but I imagine the whole development process would feel less overwhelming if each cycle was, let’s say, three months instead of six.