VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.2 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[BloodyMares]

Gotta agree with you there except to me, it doesn't really come across as a complaint about Eva but more like feedback on one specific thing in her appreciated game.

Which by the same token means I kinda gotta disagree with you here unless it's actually meant as friendly advise for another fan of Eva. They can do both, neither or whichever they prefer, my dude.

I appreciate the time and energy you put into supporting Eva a great deal but ultimately... Well, whether you agree with them or not, their intent and tone is undeniably positive and appreciative of ORS and suited to this forum in general and thread in specific, so why shouldn't they post here regardless of their reasons, right?

Well, they can, it just won't accomplish anything to complain here when Eva doesn't even visit the forum anymore. I was providing a working solution.

 

[redraw]

The discussion is an accomplishment of its own.

Eva doesn't necessarily need to be the sole beneficiary here.

 

[redraw]

And thank you for remaining engaged, to be sure.

 

[BlandChili]

The discussion is an accomplishment of its own.

Eva doesn't necessarily need to be the sole beneficiary here.

This. I didn't start partaking here because I wanted Eva's attention. I did it because I think the subject matter in the game is interesting and I like reading, sharing and being challenged in my impressions and opinions.

Also a bit opportunistic of me. With Covid about I'm confined more to my home, like so many others, and my wife can't be expected to slake my lust constantly. So I started writing and consuming erotica more, the thread for this game is active so it's a great place to engage in that kind of thing because ORS has so many options.

 

[BBQLord]

Well, they can, it just won't accomplish anything to complain here when Eva doesn't even visit the forum anymore. I was providing a working solution.

That sounds like advise for another fan to me, alright. Not sure if calling their feedback a complaint addressed at Eva is the ideal way to go about it but can't fault your intent.

Let's all remain, as redraw puts it, engaged, in wildly positive posts, constructive feedback posts and every permutation in between.

 

[BunnyDevil]

Can you specify where this issue takes place? Some people obviously talk about material they could do without but I don't think anyone has made the claim that Eva does not have the right to make what she desires.

Well, it took place here.

But I too was put off by the trans conversation. It seemed to depict heavily outdated and disdainful thinking, and that content topic she chose wasn’t necessary to accomplish the goal of the scene. She could have written an entirely different conversation that still served the same purpose, without including hate speech that could negatively impact certain people playing the game.

Similarly, I was also disappointed by Eva’s recent post referencing “jungle fever” when describing fans’ preference for Jeremy. That’s a phrase rooted in racism.

In this pirate site it may sound just like a criticism or an opinion. But she was actually blamed for outdated thinking. Isn't that agism amd disdainful towards people with such thinking?

I just mean that there is too much talks about being somehow dissapointed / offended / frustrated / untolerated etc.

Well, some of us don't like old preaks, some of us don't like trans, or people with color, just take it easy guys. No need to focus on that using every insignificant occasion, especially in a porn game.

 

[lifegetsweird]

I am curious, and I hope you don't mind my openly asking this of you directly like this, how do you think a scene like this is ideally written?

Let's say the purpose of the scene is to 1. Bring up the topic of the transgender and the transsexual, 2. Bring up pornography categories in relation to such persons, 3. Have one character (for example Perry) that enjoys the pornographic content of this nature and one character (for example Wade) that shows a clear dislike for it.

Obviously persons that dislike or are intolerant of transgender persons exist, so how do we depict them in a way that is realistic, while allowing the player character to either be neutral to or disagree/agree with the various notions presented, depending on what the player wants them to express?

Of course I don't mind giving my opinion if you're interested.

The first thing imo is that if the only time trans people are even remotely mentioned is to discuss someone's porn interests, you're already doing it wrong lol. Now, this is erotica so there's some more leeway there, but I think it's still indicative of the author's attitude towards trans people.

Consider a similar scenario but with black people instead: imagine there's no black characters at all in the game, and the first time black people are even mentioned is when someone comments on how despicable is "n****r porn". That would be pretty appalling, wouldn't it?

So, with that being said. IF she really doesn't want to have trans representation at all, and IF she really needs to have a discussion about trans porn in the game, and IF one of the characters present in the discussion needs to be very shitty about it (notice there's already 3 conscious decisions that got us to this point), having this character use the most offensive slur possible is... a choice. Now, some of the characters do call him out on it (though not the player character, which is obviously disappointing), but even those who do react don't seem particularly fazed. Again, imagine the same scenario with black people: if someone used such a strong slur you'd expect the reactions to be more unanimous and more categorical.

In the end, it all seems to amount to a series of decisions that reveal a pretty negative (or completely ignorant) attitude towards trans people, and it's something disappointing to see as someone who generally likes her content otherwise.

Some people even brought Eva's nationality to justify this; well, guess what, I'm from Spain too lol. Lo siento pero no cuela ("I'm sorry, but I don't buy it").

Hope that answers your question.

 

[D2M3]

Saying that trans people are people not fetishes is hardly a diatribe. It could at least be an option, considering we're supposed to be given a range of responses to pick from.



An okay-to-excellent portrayal of trans people? The only trans character in GGGB is introduced in a scene where she assaults a woman in a bathroom, and is later revealed to be a prostitute. Stellar representation, yes.

What a shallow, surface level examination. Because, sure, every trans person is an angel on earth, with no complexities or any interesting qualities at all. They are marble statues to marvel at, not people to be examined.

If you'll remember, that particular character was revealed to be very three dimensional, with excellent reasons why they were the way they were, and in fact, even if not pursued, with a little help to Jack, they got a good ending and a redemption story. That's what I meant by okay-to-excellent. It wasn't outright excellent, but it became so.

In contrast, if they were just a cardboard cutout without any of that context.... It'd be a boring and fetishistic representation for sure.

 

[BBQLord]

In this pirate site it may sound just like a criticism or an opinion. But she was actually blamed for outdated thinking. Isn't that agism amd disdainful towards people with such thinking?

Actually, Eva wasn't. Eva isn't every character in the game and all the characters' beliefs aren't necessarily her beliefs... right?

What a shallow, surface level examination. Because, sure, every trans person is an angel on earth, with no complexities or any interesting qualities at all. They are marble statues to marvel at, not people to be examined.

I do believe their point is that if you choose to represent only one character of a social minority, it behooves a writer to make it fit the demographic in a positive or appreciative manner otherwise it comes across as negative/shallow/one-dimensional which quickly becomes discriminatory if directed at social minorities.

If you represent one X and they just happen to be Y, even if it's for the best and most logical of reasons, you portray a fictional world in which 100% of all Xs are Ys. Which can be detrimental to X's struggle for legitimacy and more equal rights if Y is negative or stereotypical.

 

[manscout]

I was just being ironic. I just find it strange that this criticism came up only on this forum, and not from her paying patrons who have a better chance to be heard, or even on her Discord where she reads the posts. It feels entitled to complain about the content on the pirated forum while not giving her a single penny. The question is, should she listen to people who are not supporting her? Will she gain anything out of it?

Feedback is feedback, I wrote my suggestions in response to you discussing potential changes. Don't come calling me entitled just for participating in a discussion you invited.

I think it is fine if a dev chooses to use patreon as sort of filter for opinions (I don't think it is ideal, but it can be practical), but you're an insider and it seemed to me like you were offering yourself as a "middleman" on this topic, sorry if I got the wrong impression.

I generally only use Discord for personal contacts, and I feel sometimes dedicated communities can give a lot of backlash against any criticism. If you're saying EvaKiss takes feedback from her public discord and constructive criticism is welcome, then I will try to keep it in mind in the future, although I do feel discussions are always more productive in more "general" forums and platforms.

 

[redraw]

Well, some of us don't like old preaks, some of us don't like trans, or people with color, just take it easy guys. No need to focus on that using every insignificant occasion, especially in a porn game.

Why is the discussion itself so threatening?

If the ideal is free expression, why do you seem so insistent that people not express this?

 

[BlandChili]

Spoiler: Minimized

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I think it did. So it's not so much that a exchange like this can't possibly ever happen under any circumstances, but rather that on its own it conforms to some very intolerant notions that makes it offensive by nature? Like, it exists within a narrative vacuum of sorts?

So a "solution," if there were to be one, rather than just rewriting the topic of transgender people within that one conversation, it should be introduced and utilized in the story before this point, as to normalize that content within the game's narratve, even if the point of the game is pornographic in nature?

 

[BloodyMares]

Actually, Eva wasn't. Eva isn't every character in the game and all the characters' beliefs aren't necessarily her beliefs... right?

Read above. Some people attribute Wade's lines to Eva. As if she's channeling her opinions about trans people through Wade. Not thinking about possibility that she might actually be Perry in that situation, and trying to address transphobia in a way that doesn't feel too shoehorned and preachy. Or she might be Emma, not judging anyone for their porn preferences, and relaying a message "live and let live".

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

Also, I relayed all the criticism to Eva. If she decides to cut the dialogue out, well, you know your heroes.

I don't think anyone entered the discussion expecting Eva to change anything, to be honest. At least I wasn't. But thanks for relaying it to her and for taking the discussion and presenting her views as you know them. She is fully entitled to ignore it – if she does change it, I hope it's because she agrees or somehow sympathize after reading the arguments, not to alter the game just to please someone else, which I think is a bad idea, at least in general.

I do think the discussion had a lot of constructive arguments, though. (At way more constructive and easier implemented than a lot of the "she should rewrite the game with one protagonist" or "we need a chance to gangbang Holly in the next episode" type of comments that pops up.)

 

[xsssssssss]

Enjoyed the update, really happy with the Cindy progress, hopefully no backsliding next update.

As for the whole Current argument, if Eva wants to add more choice that’s fine by me but can’t say i’m a particular fan in general of the narrow chilling cultural climate some want in terms of what is supposedly allowed storytelling.

 

[BBQLord]

Chips. If that's true, I must be getting tired for I read it as feedback on ORS's representation moreso than Eva's presumed personal failings. I'll give my eyes a little rest and re-read it tomorrow. Thanks for the heads-up, BloodyMares.

That said, let's all also be mindful of how difficult it is to get representation exactly right. So if you see someone honestly trying, let's be as supportive as we can be.

 

[D2M3]

I do believe their point is that if you choose to represent only one character of a social minority, it behooves a writer to make it fit the demographic in a positive or appreciative manner otherwise it comes across as negative/shallow/one-dimensional which quickly becomes discriminatory if directed at social minorities.

If you represent one X and they just happen to be Y, even if it's for the best and most logical of reasons, you portray a fictional world in which 100% of all Xs are Ys. Which can be detrimental to X's struggle for legitimacy and more equal rights if Y is negative or stereotypical.

This is an ideological disagreement we will never get over. I never subscribe to the " if you have one specific minority representation, it needs to be positive to avoid reinforcing stereotypes" theory.

It is my utmost belief that weak storytelling with seemingly flawless minority characters that are more harmful to mainstream acceptance, whereas 3D examinations of such characters are ALWAYS more effective in that endeavor.

A clear distinction to make about trans people: In Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho, our villain is revealed to be a crossdressing man (as his mother no less) (spoilers for a literally half century old movie). For the longest time, this was denoted as a transsexual depiction. But it was not. Furthermore, the villain was as 2 dimensional as they came. That single movie painted the pop culture with sexual deviant trans people for decades. Weak storytelling in an otherwise masterpiece of a movie caused untold harm to trans people's lives.

Then we have Jared Leto's character in Dallas Buyers Club. The movie deals with a very specific subset of american history, the onset and progression of the aids epidemic. And this character was the emotional heart of the movie. She wasn't by any means a saint, and in fact shown to be a very flawed character many times. Yet watch that movie and tell me you hate trans people still, because that story, while ending tragically, told a strong story with a very 3D trans character.

This is the difference I can see EvaKiss was trying to go with in GGGB ( which as mentioned, was the request of a trans patron themselves!) This conversation in Red String is a good attempt at portraying a charged dialogue between friends. The choice to have that conversation or not would be the offensive way to do it.

"Choosing" not to have that conversation is an even bigger political statement than portraying that conversation itself in the first place.

 

[Brickman]

I don't have the script at hand, but playing through the scene I felt that the language was borderline dehumanizing. The range of reactions went from calling trans women "men with tits", to saying trans women are an okay fetish to have.

It's whatever. It's Eva's game to write and she's entitled to have as much transphobia in it as he wants, but I'm entitled to my opinion and in my opinion this part was unnecessary and pretty telling of certain biased and beliefs.

This is the problem with PC culture, virtue signalling and SJW warriors getting offended on behalf of other collectives and "standing up" for their issues (I'm not calling you a SJW but your argument is characteristic of that social movement). I think you are getting confused: what a character says does not represent what the author thinks, promotes or stand for.

As BloodyMares clearly exposed, you get a wide range of reactions from the cast, from Perry to Cindy, and YOU CAN CHOOSE as Ian how to react. I think Eva's just painting a varied picture of opinions through her characters, and none of them seem to be (or need to be) morally flawless. You as a player get to see what someone like Wade thinks, or what turns Perry on, or what moral objections Alison has, etc. You get to know the characters and you're entitled to an opinion about that and how to feel about them.

Wade sounds like a dumbass and Perry is a perv who gets turned on and fetishizes trans women. You can disagree with them. But saying the game or the dev are trans-phobic is just a straw-man argument and seems like an unwillingness to go beyond a shallow read on what's actually being portrayed. As you said, it is telling of certain biased and beliefs, but that doesn't mean the game or the dev promote them, they are just reflecting them on certain characters and giving you the opotion to reflec and react on that as you see fit.

That's just my opinion, though.

 

[lifegetsweird]

I think it did. So it's not so much that a exchange like this can't possibly ever happen under any circumstances, but rather that on its own it conforms to some very intolerant notions that makes it offensive by nature? Like, it exists within a narrative vacuum of sorts?

So a "solution," if there were to be one, rather than just rewriting the topic of transgender people within that one conversation, it should be introduced and utilized in the story before this point, as to normalize that content within the game's narratve, even if the point of the game is pornographic in nature?

I mean, sure, i guess. There's always a broader context. And when you introduce themes related to minorities in a narrative work, it's always important to consider the context, and to be specially wary of damaging stereotypes.

If you're writing a game set in Europe and the only American character is fat and arrogant and gun-loving, well, it's not a great look--but everyone knows there's so much more to America. But if the only black character is a criminal, the only gay character is a pedophile, and the only muslim is a terrorist... you're no longer writing "flawed characters" or whatever, you're perpetuating harmful stereotypes. Trans women have been endlessly fetishized and dehumanized in mainstream media for decades, so if the only time they're brought up in your narrative is to call them dudes with tits and "acceptable fetishes"... Yeah, you get my point.

 

[redraw]

This is an ideological disagreement we will never get over. I never subscribe to the " if you have one specific minority representation, it needs to be positive to avoid reinforcing stereotypes" theory.

It is my utmost belief that weak storytelling with seemingly flawless minority characters that are more harmful to mainstream acceptance, whereas 3D examinations of such characters are ALWAYS more effective in that endeavor.

This is an imposed argument, however. Most of the criticism I have observed -- broadly, not just in this case -- is not that certain persons aren't treated exclusively reverentially, but that they are very frequently portrayed in a negative and still singular light.

For instance, as sexual fetishes rather than the multi-dimensional people you would like to witness.

Popular media features an overabundance of these negative depictions, not merely flawed, complicated depictions.