VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.2 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[The_Searcher]

Okay, so what are our opinions here? Let's be honest, Eva's development tendencies have not been great during the last year, nor when it comes to ORS in general. The updates are much slower, she seems to be struggling with burnout, consistently comments on how her weeks are less productive than she would like them to be, and has now had to go back and re-work the game on at least two occasions...

I would normally be the first to defend Eva, as the way she conducted herself in the development of GGGB was outstanding, and what she delivered was exceptional. I really do have the utmost respect for her, and she is several tiers above the average VN developer. Lately, though, I can't help but feel she is making decisions that are seriously detrimental to both herself and the development of the game, something we are seeing the consequences of now.

The most obvious decision - that I was skeptical to beforehand, and categorically against now - was to include two MC's. Not only does this practically double the development burden, but it also creates a needless level of complexity, which I can imagine is one of the factors that have caused her writing-struggles. The new stat-system is also unnecessarily complex; it creates many more variables to track, and has regrettably caused the game to become more grindy in the process as well.

I feel that Eva has put a lot of effort into creating backstories for the characters and their relations to one another, but unfortunately - once again - the consequence has just been more complexity and that 90 % of the male interests for Lena have immediately disqualified themselves due to their unappeal or negative history with her. All the planning seem to have gone towards establishing the status-quo, as Eva so likes to call it, but almost no planning seem to have gone towards how it was going to progress. Of course, it then comes as no surprise when she is beginning to develop a chapter and finds herself struggling, because she doesn't know what's coming next. Probably, this is also what caused her to have to re-work Stan's entire plotline.

Perhaps I am being harsh, but the truth is, I am worried about this game's future, and Eva's future for that matter. By no means do I expect her to quit, but I believe if something does not change, this will be a very bumpy ride to the finish line, which would be very sad for everyone involved.

I agree with you 100%

My main concern here it's the point... How much reworks the game it's gonna have? Eva knows more or less where she wants to go with the story and the different paths? Or it's just improvisation? Because the reworks point to me to the second option. And I don't think it's a good signal for the game. Don't get me wrong, reworks are ok if you know exactly where you want to go, but if there are a lot of reworks, then the complete game it's gonna take years... And well, I'm not fully hyped to know I have to wait until 2024, at least, to see the final product.

GGGB it's an awesome eroge visual novel. It's probably the best eroge I played in my life and it's amazing to see the different paths and the karma system... It's fun to play and see how the story with Ashley could take a radical path. To be honest, I don't feel the same with ORS, specifically I don't feel the same with Lena story. I found her character lack of choice (the opposite with Ashley in GGGB) and not interesting, and worse: I don't like her selection of characters to have a relationship (with a certain exception). And with Ian it's more or less the same but I like his selection of characters to have a relationship. I think that ORS could be a better game with only Ian as protagonist (or maybe a choice of protagonist at the beggining, like Mass Effect). Just my opinion on this.

And again, as I said before, there are a lot of secondary characters I don't like at all. Characters like Perry for example. I just cannot stand the guy. If he gets out of the story could be a win-win for me. And I don't like the fact that lots of the time the game left the player out and make a decision for you (that could be a better candidate for a re-write in my opinion).

We'll see what happens in the future.

 

[Dr.Brule]

Haha I got so confused when I accepted to use emma's drugs. It took me 5 minutes to understand what was going on

 

[John Doe Jr.]

Of course, it then comes as no surprise when she is beginning to develop a chapter and finds herself struggling, because she doesn't know what's coming next

I really think that if she plans out her stories more thoroughly from the very beginning the writing would be a lot smoother and reworks would be at a bare minimum. It seems to me from her posts that she kinda just goes with the flow with either a basic or no plan at all and this causes her to constantly come up with new ideas way down the road that she then goes back to overhaul the game to implement.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

I agree with you 100%

My main concern here it's the point... How much reworks the game it's gonna have? Eva knows more or less where she wants to go with the story and the different paths? Or it's just improvisation? Because the reworks point to me to the second option. And I don't think it's a good signal for the game. Don't get me wrong, reworks are ok if you know exactly where you want to go, but if there are a lot of reworks, then the complete game it's gonna take years... And well, I'm not fully hyped to know I have to wait until 2024, at least, to see the final product.

GGGB it's an awesome eroge visual novel. It's probably the best eroge I played in my life and it's amazing to see the different paths and the karma system... It's fun to play and see how the story with Ashley could take a radical path. To be honest, I don't feel the same with ORS, specifically I don't feel the same with Lena story. I found her character lack of choice (the opposite with Ashley in GGGB) and not interesting, and worse: I don't like her selection of characters to have a relationship (with a certain exception). And with Ian it's more or less the same but I like his selection of characters to have a relationship. I think that ORS could be a better game with only Ian as protagonist (or maybe a choice of protagonist at the beggining, like Mass Effect). Just my opinion on this.

And again, as I said before, there are a lot of secondary characters I don't like at all. Characters like Perry for example. I just cannot stand the guy. If he gets out of the story could be a win-win for me. And I don't like the fact that lots of the time the game left the player out and make a decision for you (that could be a better candidate for a re-write in my opinion).

We'll see what happens in the future.

Choice of protagonist in a story-based visual novel essentially means two different games & a bunch of extra art. The pathing would be easier to figure out, but on the whole, it wouldn't eliminate any work and may simply add a lot more. Unless it was just selecting between multiple looks of the same sex for basically the same protagonist.

My best guesses for Eva's dual protagonist decision come down to:

1. Acce$$ibility & wider appeal:
A. M/F:
Though I personally never care about MC's sex, there's a market-share of those who do, and like games and porn in general, it skews to a male preference. At the same time, Eva already had a built-in fan-base for F MC games that it would be dumb to abandon. Nor might she want to, considering women need games they can identify with too.
B. More satisfied story outcomes:
It allows the user even greater control of the story as they want it told, allowing us to choose not just action, but our preferred reaction, resulting in an even greater amount of users satisfied with their end story - if designed right.

2. It was a concept she was excited to work with & went along with whatever creative inspiration she had in mind.



As people tend to misunderstand on these forums a bunch, I'm not saying here whether it was a good decision or a bad one. It's making quite a clusterfuck right now, but if it ends up being both successful and satisfying throughout, maybe it was the right one.. or maybe the wrong one (based on resources), which still turned out okay in the end after a few delays and panic attacks. That's all still yet to be determined.

 

[What'sNew]

I'm wondering how extensive the changes will be. Will it be like playing an entirely different game? Minor changes aside from Stan and art? There where a lot of plot points I was getting really into with much of the cast and it'd be a shame if most of it got retconned

Unfortunately I think a good chunk will be changed since Eva has been spending a lot of time on the revision. What's more she used the word "retconned" in her latest development update which pretty much means certain plot points will have changed so much that it needs removal or something along those lines.

So the extent can be pretty large imo. Maybe certain backstories will be changed all together. If you ask me though, nothing in the story so far has bothered me so much that it warrants a rewrite.

And yes some interactions, if removed, will be sorely missed. Like the few times Ian and his friends play pool, or make fun of Jeremy for the whole Louise incident, or smoke weed with Wade and Perry. Good times.

 

[juniorforlife17313]

Can't wait for chapter 10. Did eva ever say how much chapters she plans on doing overall? Shit should be solid but i hope she didn't retcon the stuff that made the game feel organic like the aforementioned above. And hoping for some drama in the upcoming chapters, should be fun to play through.

 

[Echbert]

Okay, so what are our opinions here? Let's be honest, Eva's development tendencies have not been great during the last year, nor when it comes to ORS in general. The updates are much slower, she seems to be struggling with burnout, consistently comments on how her weeks are less productive than she would like them to be, and has now had to go back and re-work the game on at least two occasions...

I would normally be the first to defend Eva, as the way she conducted herself in the development of GGGB was outstanding, and what she delivered was exceptional. I really do have the utmost respect for her, and she is several tiers above the average VN developer. Lately, though, I can't help but feel she is making decisions that are seriously detrimental to both herself and the development of the game, something we are seeing the consequences of now.

The most obvious decision - that I was skeptical to beforehand, and categorically against now - was to include two MC's. Not only does this practically double the development burden, but it also creates a needless level of complexity, which I can imagine is one of the factors that have caused her writing-struggles. The new stat-system is also unnecessarily complex; it creates many more variables to track, and has regrettably caused the game to become more grindy in the process as well.

I feel that Eva has put a lot of effort into creating backstories for the characters and their relations to one another, but unfortunately - once again - the consequence has just been more complexity and that 90 % of the male interests for Lena have immediately disqualified themselves due to their unappeal or negative history with her. All the planning seem to have gone towards establishing the status-quo, as Eva so likes to call it, but almost no planning seem to have gone towards how it was going to progress. Of course, it then comes as no surprise when she is beginning to develop a chapter and finds herself struggling, because she doesn't know what's coming next. Probably, this is also what caused her to have to re-work Stan's entire plotline.

Perhaps I am being harsh, but the truth is, I am worried about this game's future, and Eva's future for that matter. By no means do I expect her to quit, but I believe if something does not change, this will be a very bumpy ride to the finish line, which would be very sad for everyone involved.

her ambition is what's really fucked her up. the Two MC approach is too big a scope for her "Compass writing" as it creates a bunch of complexities she has to keep track off, which means that without much planning she's going to have to go over everything again and again, everytime she decides to continue with the story. It's a huge bottleneck in her workflow. I respect her for going for whatever she was inspired to do, but do think that she needs to figure out what stories work for her writing style or figure out a planning strategy that works for her.

The stat system is unecessary, it's simplicity and implementation create a scenario where ppl will focus on "playing the system"(min-maxing) so they can have access to said choices, as opposed to making the decisions they feel are best for a situation. She should have just opted for a more organic choice system. stat systems like theses don't work well unless their complex and the game is designed around them(a. la Fallout, Arcanum, etc.), hell i'm even playing Dragon Age Origins right now, and their whole "friendship" system make me focus less on dialogue options i feel are best, and more on what "pleases" the character more(I decided to say fuck it, and just Role Play, ignoring the "stat system").

The lack of planning really hurt Lena's narrative most. Her character is actually really well written, she's got a great backstory, her personality's dynamic, with quirks that make her unique, and a lot of her character comes out in her dynamics with the ppl around her, had her story been a linear one it would have been great. The main problem is her choices, they don't always make sense within her character, or rather there isn't enough groundwork laid for some of the choices to work, like say Stan, a lot of her choices with him make no sense, it makes it clear that Eva was focused more on implementing the corruption aspect with her as opposed to something more organic. I'm hoping this rework allowed Eva to go back and fix said choices, because I really do like both her and Ian.

I'm worried as well, but Eva seems to have bounced back, so i'm hoping that this has been a learning experience of what works for her, and her next game will be approached with that in mind. I do enjoy both her games, and have actually taken quite a liking to her writing style, so i'm hoping she produces more work down the line after ORS.

 

[dlombu]

I really think that if she plans out her stories more thoroughly from the very beginning the writing would be a lot smoother and reworks would be at a bare minimum. It seems to me from her posts that she kinda just goes with the flow with either a basic or no plan at all and this causes her to constantly come up with new ideas way down the road that she then goes back to overhaul the game to implement.

It's the George RR Martin school of writing. He calls it the "Gardener" approach vs the "Architect" approach. Leads to better writing because the story develops organically but has the downsides of taking longer and potentially writing yourself into unresolvable knots. (And possibly never finishing.)

 

[jimul18]

As you said, maybe GRR Martin isn't the model you should aspire to, especially when working month to month and relying on crowd patronage. The organic approach is fine for certain aspects but I think one should outline the starting and potential endpoints (at least for the main characters). More on that later. As far as the stat systems is concerned I think three stats closer to the GGGB system would be better, two for the personality (e.g. romantic/lust-driven) and one for constitution (e.g. fitness). One opens path within the scenes the other two open the type of scenes availible (e.g. dominating). The will systems could be changed to a override system that regenerates with each chapter and allows you to pick choices that would otherwise be blocked without changing your stats afterwards.

Back to the starting and endpoints:
- A quick (simplified) look at GGGB. Ash started as a mostly innocent girl in a vanilla relationship. Throughout the plot her character changed and she could go down different path, some voluntarily more more coerced. The endpoints were broadly: romance-related, gang-related, porn/fame-related and corruption-related. Those were based on the different branches of the narrative (i.e. gang, Arthur, Tyrone, choice boy-/girlfriend). Amazing game with a huge amount of variation but overall clear beginning and end for the character. Ash could stay a good girl become a good girl gone bad.

- Now for ORS it is more complicated since the paths of the two main characters intersect all the time. But lets simplify again and look at Ian and Lena. Lena is more closely resembling Ashley than most would admit. Pretty vanilla start but thusfar mostly romantic relationship choices, with some sleeping around and the possibility of a corruption/blackmail situation with Seymour on the horizon. Ian is a mirror to that stuck in his job and sexually pretty vanilla at the start. However his friendships/peergroup plays a bigger role (for Lena it is the roommate situation but less influential at the moment).

- (Very broad) endpoints (limited to relationships/sexual characer) I could imagine:
...for Ian a monogamous romantic relationship, "playboy" (i.e. multiple casual relationships), manipulator (via Axel/Seymour)
...for Lena monogamous romantic relationship, "playgirl" (i.e. multiple casual relationships), manipulator (via Louise/Holly), porn (via Stalkfap and more), manipulee (via multiple characters)

- Sidenote: the most interesting character imho is Holly, since the main characters could influence/pull her in opposing directions potentially (which would be a nightmare for EK in terms of variables). Right now there is the "This influences how much Holly wants to be like Lena." but if you play this out. Imagine Lena is a dominating slutty character and Holly wants to be like her or is manipulated into thinking this is the path to self-realization, or Lena is a romantic. Add to that Ian potentially pulling her in two direction (i.e. slutty freak or romantic caring relationship) Baby, you've got yourself a stew going.

 

[reyir]

Okay, so what are our opinions here? Let's be honest, Eva's development tendencies have not been great during the last year, nor when it comes to ORS in general. The updates are much slower, she seems to be struggling with burnout, consistently comments on how her weeks are less productive than she would like them to be, and has now had to go back and re-work the game on at least two occasions...

I would normally be the first to defend Eva, as the way she conducted herself in the development of GGGB was outstanding, and what she delivered was exceptional. I really do have the utmost respect for her, and she is several tiers above the average VN developer. Lately, though, I can't help but feel she is making decisions that are seriously detrimental to both herself and the development of the game, something we are seeing the consequences of now.

The most obvious decision - that I was skeptical to beforehand, and categorically against now - was to include two MC's. Not only does this practically double the development burden, but it also creates a needless level of complexity, which I can imagine is one of the factors that have caused her writing-struggles. The new stat-system is also unnecessarily complex; it creates many more variables to track, and has regrettably caused the game to become more grindy in the process as well.

I feel that Eva has put a lot of effort into creating backstories for the characters and their relations to one another, but unfortunately - once again - the consequence has just been more complexity and that 90 % of the male interests for Lena have immediately disqualified themselves due to their unappeal or negative history with her. All the planning seem to have gone towards establishing the status-quo, as Eva so likes to call it, but almost no planning seem to have gone towards how it was going to progress. Of course, it then comes as no surprise when she is beginning to develop a chapter and finds herself struggling, because she doesn't know what's coming next. Probably, this is also what caused her to have to re-work Stan's entire plotline.

Perhaps I am being harsh, but the truth is, I am worried about this game's future, and Eva's future for that matter. By no means do I expect her to quit, but I believe if something does not change, this will be a very bumpy ride to the finish line, which would be very sad for everyone involved.

The idea of having 2 protagonist is already makes the game more complex, and then she choose to had 2 protagonist with different gender, this one bring the complexity of this game reach a whole new level, and then again in one of the QnA (CMIIW), she tell us that Lena will mainly follow the same route as ashley in GGGB, corruption. But Ian on the other hand, will follow the route of gentleman or good guy. This literally makes the game even more complex.

I think it will be better if she choose 2 female protagonist instead of 2 different gender protagonist. With 2 female protagonist, the development progress can be more easier than what it is right now. She can had the 2 female protagonist became bestfriend like Ashley and jessica in GGGB or Lena and Ivy in ORS, or she can choose one female protagonist follow corruption route and can corrupt the other female protagonist. With this it will be more easier to develop the story that combined two of the MC more often.

I know the ambitions that eva had is really big, the way she makes ORS had 2 protagonist with different personality when other game only had one protagonist and the story she mades is really really complex is the proof of what kind of ambitions that she has with this ORS game, but too much ambitions is not good for you, in the last few months shes really burnout. If you remember that GGGB updated every month or every other month, you should know that shes really struggilng with ORS development every month.

I think Eva already know this, thats why she choose to reworked all the chapter that already completed so she can had more choices to develop the game and not burnout herself to develop the game every month again. Eva is one of the developer that i respect the most, and i know Eva already know she made a mistakes and choose to reworked all the chapter right now so she can updated the game more faster than what it is right now.

 

[Arata20]

I think it will be better if she choose 2 female protagonist instead of 2 different gender protagonist. With 2 female protagonist, the development progress can be more easier than what it is right now

and even better not to fuck youself brain and make one main character. With two mc this game clearly did not get any better. One of the biggest disadvantages is that you can't fully immerse yourself in the game with two mc, and of different genders. Аnd that's not to mention the content, the amount of which for each hero is halved than it could be

 

[BloodyMares]

I'm wondering how extensive the changes will be. Will it be like playing an entirely different game? Minor changes aside from Stan and art? There where a lot of plot points I was getting really into with much of the cast and it'd be a shame if most of it got retconned

Think of it as an alternate timeline where in general everything is familiar, but some events happened differently, some didn't happen, with some unexpected new events and storylines that I can see some people being very excited about... Also, stat system has been reworked to feel more like progression, with each new level requiring more XP to level up than the previous one.

 

[Dirtytreenaturd]

Think of it as an alternate timeline where in general everything is familiar, but some events happened differently, some didn't happen, with some unexpected new events and storylines that I can see some people being very excited about... Also, stat system has been reworked to feel more like progression, with each new level requiring more XP to level up than the previous one.

I'm not expecting it, but would be super happy if Eva decided to bring an Ed path back!

 

[dolfe67]

and even better not to fuck youself brain and make one main character. With two mc this game clearly did not get any better. One of the biggest disadvantages is that you can't fully immerse yourself in the game with two mc, and of different genders. Аnd that's not to mention the content, the amount of which for each hero is halved than it could be

Yeah the fact the 2 MC are romancing each other feels very weird and is not my favorite part

 

[Johnysilver771]

Minerva i d like to see more milfs )

 

[niek07]

Think of it as an alternate timeline where in general everything is familiar, but some events happened differently, some didn't happen, with some unexpected new events and storylines that I can see some people being very excited about... Also, stat system has been reworked to feel more like progression, with each new level requiring more XP to level up than the previous one.

Sounds like great changes. Must also be a lot of work for you now you have to make a new walktrough from the beginning.

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

I think a few people here are reading a bit too much into the whole rework thing. First of all: Even though it has proved to become bigger and more time consuming than most assumed at first, there's nothing about it that seems more extensive than what most works of fiction go through during the writing process. If a writer's got a clear plan for what they want to achieve during an editing process like this, it more or less always ends up making the story better. Often also a lot better.

Sure, people like different parts of the game, and it's impossible to change things without disappointing someone, but generally I don't think there's much reason to fear that they'll end up removing the things we like about the story.

Another aspect of the rework — and the Steam release — is that it forces Eva to think about what direction they want to take the story, as I assume the first 9 chapters aren't going to be changed any further once they're released on Steam. Doing a rework halfway through a story is obviously about improving the story as it is now, but it's also about setting up the different paths even better for the rest of the game. I'm pretty sure these few months have forced Eva to reflect on where they want to take the story from now on. A lot of people are saying that Eva should have a more detailed plan for the story — chances are that's exactly what they'll get after the rework's done.

 

[The_Searcher]

It's the George RR Martin school of writing. He calls it the "Gardener" approach vs the "Architect" approach. Leads to better writing because the story develops organically but has the downsides of taking longer and potentially writing yourself into unresolvable knots. (And possibly never finishing.)

Buf, I hope that ORS follows a different approach, because if it's the same path as George RR Martin... Look at "Winds of Winter". I read a few days ago that probably the author has not even finished half of the book. I'm not a follower of "Song of Ice and Fire" but I'm sorry for the people are still waiting for the new book.

 

[BloodyMares]

I think a few people here are reading a bit too much into the whole rework thing. First of all: Even though it has proved to become bigger and more time consuming than most assumed at first, there's nothing about it that seems more extensive than what most works of fiction go through during the writing process. If a writer's got a clear plan for what they want to achieve during an editing process like this, it more or less always ends up making the story better. Often also a lot better.

Sure, people like different parts of the game, and it's impossible to change things without disappointing someone, but generally I don't think there's much reason to fear that they'll end up removing the things we like about the story.

Another aspect of the rework — and the Steam release — is that it forces Eva to think about what direction they want to take the story, as I assume the first 9 chapters aren't going to be changed any further once they're released on Steam. Doing a rework halfway through a story is obviously about improving the story as it is now, but it's also about setting up the different paths even better for the rest of the game. I'm pretty sure these few months have forced Eva to reflect on where they want to take the story from now on. A lot of people are saying that Eva should have a more detailed plan for the story — chances are that's exactly what they'll get after the rework's done.

And let's not forget that this is an on-going material where the author gets feedback for their work after each update. The demand to have a strict, clear plan to follow until the end of the project has one massive downside which prevents you from deviating from that plan anymore. You'll be forced to write according to your original vision even if you start seeing problems with that plan mid-development. And there's nothing more demoralizing than writing a story you don't feel as passionate about anymore. It makes writing feel like school project and we all know how they made us feel.

And you can't accurately predict the playstyle of the most players to satisfy their agency while also following the planned story arcs. In fact, I believe the writing where Eva clearly planned ahead for something to happen, faced the most backlash because the audience felt those events were forced or out of character. Their preferred protagonist behaved in a way that served the story (drama / corruption), but not the characters (the players who play a certain way) which creates such issues like Lena becoming hypocritical due to not accounting for the diverging playthroughs that would affect the personality of the main characters. But because Eva is the gardener writer, she can easily adapt to unexpected factors, and change direction without much delay. If she was a planner, the whole plan would have to be changed, not just for the next couple of chapters, but until the very end.

 

[GrigoriRasputin]

The stat system is unecessary, it's simplicity and implementation create a scenario where ppl will focus on "playing the system"(min-maxing) so they can have access to said choices, as opposed to making the decisions they feel are best for a situation. She should have just opted for a more organic choice system. stat systems like theses don't work well unless their complex and the game is designed around them(a. la Fallout, Arcanum, etc.), hell i'm even playing Dragon Age Origins right now, and their whole "friendship" system make me focus less on dialogue options i feel are best, and more on what "pleases" the character more(I decided to say fuck it, and just Role Play, ignoring the "stat system").

Also playing through DA:O right now for the first time. You must be talking about Morrigan right? Everything I do is -5 points with her.

While it's taken a lot longer than most people here were expecting, it sounds like the revision is fairly extensive. It can only be a good thing from my point of view. Curious to see the new scenes and interactions that will be coming. Regarding the 'gardener' vs 'architect' debate, I know that I personally would much rather have to go back and refine my old work than potentially toss out a whole lot of planning for the future.