dolfe67
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- Apr 25, 2020
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When it's ready obviously
- Thread starter Eva Kiss
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JohnnyKiss
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- Oct 1, 2017
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When it rains, it pours. Not only was one of the games I have been following for a long time been abandoned but now, ORS has had a 2 week long delay. There is also a game I have been following where the author hasn't made any progress in a month because they decided to add animations, a game where the author hasn't communicated with the players in 2 months and a game that is seemingly just getting endlessly rendered XD
Geralt From Rivia
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Lena is not as shy and prude as basic Ashley, but it's still corruption. At the moment it's a lighter version than GGGB, but we've only covered half of the game. Stalkfap, cheating, sex with everything that moves, become Axel's slave again or go under a perverted oligarch, as for me, this fits the definition of corruption.
lipe2410
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- Dec 23, 2018
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Considering some of your other posts, this view does not surprise me in the least, still it is black and white on several points, when the world is shades of grey. While cheating or going back to an asshole like Axel most definitely is corrupt or self-forgetting, your other points are very much a choice of what you do and not corrupt on their own.
Stalkfap is as corrupt as far as you decide to go and the "corruption grade" hinges very much why and what you do with it. Posting some "risk" bikini pics or artsy nudes on your own decision is about as corrupt as buying a packet of chewing gum!
"Having sex with anything that moves" might not be as squeaky clean as some people will want to, but a single or FwB Lena is not corrupt simply by the number of her sex partners. There is more to it than just this.
"Go under a perverted oligarch" is simply metagaming, since Eva "cast" Seymour as the main antagonist of the game, which he does not have to be. He could simply be a bored rich man dabbling in a new hobby and simping on Lena, as some paths of the game very much insinuate. Even Seymour and Lena hitting off from early on does not make her corrupt just so.
Geralt From Rivia
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About Stalkfap, this is nothing more than a clarification, the player himself decides how much to corrupt Lena in this role. But more involvement in Stalkfap brings more easy money, especially exclusive requests, which are more perverted - you can't argue with that. When you play as "good Lena", you always face this temptation - "Wouldn't it all go to hell?" Because there simply isn't enough money.
Well, look, Lena. who went from being in a relationship with a guy, starts sleeping with a lot of guys. In terms of game mechanics in AVN, this can be called corruption. Of course I'm not judging, I myself have 3 such runs.
Based on some of your previous posts, these views don't surprise me at all. Yes - yes, good, innocent, slandered Seymour. I've heard this tale before. I won't fall for it a second time, I have more important things to do.
I think for something to be considered corruption in porn terms, 3 things broadly need to be met.
First: The character needs to undergo some sort of shift at the hands of some outside force. Of course the result will be sexual in nature.
Second: the character needs to initially believe what the end result to be as being bad. For example Lena initially thinks cheating on Ian is bad, but though the outside influence of Axel's wondercock, she does it anyways. At the end she may or may not feel bad about it, maybe she justifies it to herself.
Third: The player must believe the final result to being a bad outcome for the character or for characters affected by the actions. If the player doesn't see anything wrong with the final result of the corruption, then they won't perceive it as being corruption. For example if Lena decides to make a very slutty stalkfap because of he bad finances, a player who sees stalkfap/onlyfans as being a bad path for women to go down, for whatever reason, will see Lena as being corrupted. But if a different player doesn't see anything wrong with making a stalkfap/onlyfans and just sees it as female empowerment, then he won't see it as being corruption.
This line of reasoning is in an earlier message I said Seymour's path could considered corruption if he went down the blackmail path, but not necessarily if Lena was down with him from the start. Obviously I see one as being very bad and the other not really bad unless you want
Regardless of how the player feels IRL about the themes used in Lena's corruption, it is still important to emphasize that Lena's character already starts with an established value that artistic modelling should not devolve into sex work, and both StalkFap and Seymour's route tempt Lena into selling out and to betray that value as they both start under the prerrogative of just being alternative ways of promoting and developing her modelling career.
Had both of those routes been presented as sex work from the start, perhaps the player could have explored them as a way of tailoring how Lena's character feels about sex work without it necessarily being "corruption", but the fact they are both about perverting her initial artistic values makes the corruption tropes pretty evident, regardless of if the player is having their Lena enjoy herself and dive headfirst, or if they are having her begrudgingly dragged into it.
Had both of those routes been presented as sex work from the start, perhaps the player could have explored them as a way of tailoring how Lena's character feels about sex work without it necessarily being "corruption", but the fact they are both about perverting her initial artistic values makes the corruption tropes pretty evident, regardless of if the player is having their Lena enjoy herself and dive headfirst, or if they are having her begrudgingly dragged into it.
How the player sees that shift is still important for whether or not it is corruption. Lena changing or going against her values alone does not constitute corruption. The end-state has to be seen by the player as bad.
As an example imagine if someone had a friend who would watch movies because they are the work of the devil. Now if that someone eventually convinced the friend to watch movies with them and the friend changed their opinion on whether or not movies are the devil's work, would that be corruption? No, because from our outside perspective we have an opinion on the end-state as not being bad. Same with Lena, if someone doesn't see a problem with Lena mixing sexuality with her artistic integrity, then they wouldn't see what she is doing as getting corrupted, rather just Lena changing her perspective.
Corruption is to some extent defined by the player's morality. Most people have broad shared values on this stuff though, which is why most corruption content is agreed upon as being corruption, such as enjoying blackmail, rape, and cheating on ones partner. The player sees those things as being bad and therefore as the character being corrupted.
Even Ian has corruption content that meets this threshold with Wade and Cindy. Everyone would agree that banging your friends girl behind his back is a bad person thing to do and Ian initially has reservations, but eventually succumbs to the Cindy gorilla grip.
I'd still see it as "corruption" if the method of "convincement" involved bribery, threats, blackmail, and other forms of manipulative coercement. For example I don't have a problem with drinking alcohol, still does not sit right with me to see someone peer pressured and borderline bullied into drinking when they didn't want to.
The issue with your example is that "your friend believing movies are the work of the devil" sounds like something he would only get from religious indoctrination which would already be a form of "corruption". If you convinced them to change their mind on the merits of your arguments alone with no shady stuff, you'd basically be doing the reverse of corrupting them since you'd be helping them break free and assisting then into making up their own mind.
On the other hand if your friend just didn't want to watch movies for whatever quirky reason he came up with himself and you started to be really pushy, demeaning his lifestyle, threatening to cut him off, etc etc until he gave up and went along with what you wanted, then I'd say you were a "corrupting" influence regardless of good intentions and seemingly harmless results.
It is the difference between Ian and Lena convincing Holly that it is okay for her to be more confident in enjoying herself and Ivy basically calling her a no-life nerd if she doesn't start doing the things Ivy tells her to do.
BloodyMares
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My 2 cents: This distinction is not what separates corruption from non-corruptive influence. Is Ivy being a bitch to Holly by doing those things? Definitely. Is it what makes it corruption? Not really. Rather, it's the difference between Holly in point A and Holly in point B (shift in her morality). Lena can corrupt Holly, too, but in a much gentler and seductive way, cheering her on to be brave (and promiscuous / exhibitionist) which leads to the same result (Holly blowing Mark in a car). I'd say it counts as corruption because Mark is openly a player who simply follows Ivy's instructions and doesn't care about Holly's interests.
We all remember Lena's reaction when Ian acted this way with Holly, she was super-protective of her. But now, gently pushing Holly to have a one-night stand with a guy who thinks with his cock (who Holly is not even into), directly contradicts Lena's established morality. So not only Holly got corrupted by Lena, the player also corrupted Lena to not be as protective of Holly, pushing her towards casual sex with a guy but without demeaning Holly's self-worth, only tempting her with positive consequences if she does that (promise of improved confidence in her sexuality) which is totally manipulative but in a way that makes Holly happy, not insecure.
To sum-up, my understanding of corruption is that it has nothing to do with the player's morality or the attitude in which you go about it, but it's about the significant shift of the character's starting morality that makes them do things outside of their comfort zone and goes against their initial desires / goals. So by that formula: Holly wants to be beautiful, brave, and confident just like Lena and Ivy (she is envious of Lena even if you don't increase holly_change score, so that desire is intrinsic to her and is outside of player's control) but being promiscuous isn't in her plans and is clearly outside of her comfort zone. So, posing naked for Lena as an excercise for her self-confidence isn't corruption, because Lena only encourages Holly to do what she already wants or is curious about, but hooking up with Mark or Ivy falls under corruption because it adds promiscuity into the mix (and requires holly_change variable if we're being meta). Likewise, her desire is Ian but not a meaningless one-night stand - she's glad that it happened but still feels used by Ian. So sleeping with her by itself isn't corruption (it's what she wanted) but somehow convincing her to accept being Ian's side-piece (if that ever happens) would classify as corruption because it's something that Holly wouldn't go for initially.
The tricky thing with Lena though, is that we can't fully judge Lena's starting morality regarding sex because we're starting the game with her after she's already been with Axel. We don't know the full extent of her sexual adventures. It came as a huge surprise when Eva revealed that Lena used to be Axel's sub and thus having capacity to be perverted. Those polaroids were pornographic, and while they did that in private, it still lets us know that Lena is okay posing for private porn (that goes beyond her artistic modeling). And we don't really know if she had other boyfriends before Axel or just sexual experience we don't know about (besides Ivy and threesome with Cherry). So if we think of something as corruption at this point, some details may be revealed exposing that Lena can be much more perverted that we imagined, thus none of what has happened so far could be considered as corruption if she has done similar things before. The only obvious corruption with Lena so far is not really based on sexual activities but regarding her interactions with people or changing opinion about modeling / stalkfap. Seducing Louise's boyfriend and fucking him behind her back is an obvious corruption, so as hooking up with Mike knowing he has a girlfriend. Or treating Louise like a sex toy is also corruption of Lena's morality. Then, from posting only artistic modeling pictures to being okay posting lewd porn for money and thrill, without any artistic pretense is also corruption regardless of the player's views on it because Lena at the start of the game wouldn't be okay doing that, she needed Ivy to lead by example.
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Agree with most of what you said, will just add real fast that I don't think it is possible to get the Mark scene if you haven't told Holly to keep going to the gym, which removes nearly all of Ivy's interactions with her. Until the "no-gym" route gets an equivalent scene, I wouldn't say Lena is "corrupting" Holly, at most she accidentally makes her more influenceable and then lets Ivy do her thing, either because Lena agrees with Ivy's goals (if not her methods) or is too passive about the whole affair.
Lena being protective of Holly in regards to Ian was less about the corruption and more about the heartbreak. I think that if you play your Lena to not be interested in romance anymore, her behavior in regards to pushing Holly into a one-night stand with Mark isn't really contradictory nor a sign of Lena's own corruption. Lena starts the game at a crossroads and uncertain about how she feels about the entire idea of finding love due to the heartbreak she had with Axel, she can simultaneously think the one-night stand with Ian was a bad idea because it would bring Holly pain while also think that the one-night stand with Mark is not a terrible idea because being able to have casual relationships without romantic feelings would be a good thing for Holly (although I think that no matter the scenario, Lena is always a bit shocked about Holly giving Mark a bj in their first date, rathen than impressed or proud)
Also I think it is important for there to be a distinction between "corrupting" someone and just sharing your own opinion and being a part of another person's growth. Saying that any kind of influence is a form of corruption just because it resulted in change is a dangerous line of reasoning in my opinion, hence why I associate "corruption" more with coercion and manipulation than just the result of change.
Very much this!
In addition, as we can see often in the thread, there is quite a number of discutants which consider everything is fine and dandy if it concerns their chosen characters, all others or the differing opinion of other members is directly "corrupt". Which is far from helpful.
BloodyMares
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- Dec 4, 2017
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You are right about Holly not being able to hook up with Mark without going to the gym. But it doesn't necessarily have to do with Ivy's mean and blunt ideas influencing Holly but Holly and Ivy being friends. Mark is Ivy's friend, so of course Holly needs to go to the gym to be introduced to him, otherwise Ivy doesn't really give a damn about Holly. Even if they hung out that time on the path where Holly didn't go to the gym and Holly started wallowing in self-pity, Ivy would just dismiss her and try to change the topic instead of giving her any ideas.
On top of that, encourage_holly variable is what determines Holly's starting change, representing Holly's growing confidence. If Lena doesn't encourage her to go to the gym, the value for that variable decreases instead of staying the same, thus telling us that Holly is being discouraged by Lena from putting an effort. And if she's not willing to put some effort, she wouldn't even consider Ivy's ideas if Ivy brought them up.
Now, regarding her interactions with Ivy and how they contribute to her corruption (hooking up with Mark) vs Lena's influence.
To hook up with Mark, Holly needs:
1) holly_guy = 2 which is triggered automatically if Lena encouraged Holly to hang out with him and she didn't have sex with Holly, in which case it's only = 1 or 0 (if Lena tried to discourage Holly from meeting him in Ch 7). Lena can try to interrupt them from talking but it only works if holly_change < 4. If it's > 3, Holly prefers Mark's company and wants to keep chatting with him.
2) holly_change = 5 to agree to it if Lena is passive and allows her to make her own decision ("Let Holly decide"). Otherwise she rejects the idea despite Ivy's arguments. However, Lena can push her towards this idea, thus convincing Holly to go for it regardless of holly_change value. So Holly values Lena's input before doing anything Ivy tells her to do.
3) If Lena decides to protect Holly, regardless of other conditions, it completely stops Holly's interest in Mark (holly_guy = 0), even if she hooked up with Ivy and generally listens to her ideas.
So, if we ignore Lena suddenly protecting Holly here or pushing her (which could be argued as joint effort with Ivy rather than Holly listening exclusively to Lena). That leaves us with holly_guy = 2 and holly_change > 3 or holly_change > 5. Let's compare how many holly_change points are contributed by Ivy vs Lena vs Ian. Any point rewarded by Lena agreeing with Ivy or being passive in a situation where Ivy suggests an idea will be attributed to Ivy for the sake of fairness. It somewhat diminishes Lena's agency but whatever.
Ch 1:
- "Yes, she is" +1 to Ian
Ch 6 (holly_gym):
- "Comfort Holly / Let Ivy talk to her" +1 to either Lena / Ivy
- "Agree with Ivy" +1 to Ivy
Ch 7 (holly_gym):
- "She's a writer" +1 (3 max) to Lena - when talking to Marcel
- "Encourage Holly" +1 (3 max) to Ivy - when Ivy shows Mark's photo to Holly
Ch 8 (holly_gym):
- "Give me something strong" +1 (2 max) to Lena - when drinking at Ivy's place
- "Stay at Ivy's place and have another drink" +1 (1 max) to Lena
- "Strip to underwear" +1 (3 max) to Ivy (her idea)
Ch 10:
- "Nudge Holly" +1 (5 max) to Lena
- "Leave them to it" +1 (5 max) - This is tricky because it's Lena's decision to let them talk but Holly in this instance ends up being corrupted from talking to Mark with Ivy doing her own thing elsewhere. Unless you count Mark as an extension of Ivy, but it would completely rob Lena and Holly from agency because Ivy can't influence Holly enjoying Mark's company. Since Ivy is not directly influencing Holly here let's just not count it and award it to Holly herself.
Results:
1) Pitiful 1 point from Ian at the very start of the game. He gets to contribute more in his own path but since it's at odds with Holly hooking up with Mark I ignored those. Also he gets to contribute once more in Ch 10 but only if Holly doesn't go to gym so it's irrelevant here either.
3) Ivy: 3 (1 bonus that can't go beyond 3)
2) Lena: 3 (1 bonus that can't go beyond 3 and another that applies only if the score was 0).
So, we can see that Lena's and Ivy's influence rather match and Holly can only be corrupted by joint effort but it's besides the point. We only need Holly to hook up with Mark without choosing anything that would increase holly_change by Ivy's influence.
1) +1 "Yes, she is" by Ian
2) +1 "Comfort Holly" by Lena
3) +1 "She's a writer" by Lena
4) +1 "Nudge Holly" by Lena
5) +1 "Leave them to it" - passed the required threshold
And thus, Ian and Lena can contribute to Holly hooking up with Mark without Ivy having anything to do with it aside from orchestrating their interaction on her birthday. While sure, none of these options can really be attributed to corruption as on their own they're quite innocent and Holly simply becomes more confident in herself. But it's Lena helping Holly with her confidence in order to loosen up. It's not fair to say that she simply lets Ivy to do her thing because she can still reject some of Ivy's ideas and only go along with those that she thinks benefit Holly. Ivy simply can't corrupt Holly if Lena is being passive. Holly needs Lena's encouragement in order to be brave enough to go the extra mile.
Only, how can Lena be sure that Holly doesn't suffer heartbreak from Mark if she learned that he was simply playing with her because Ivy told him to? There's no confirmation that Holly simply uses Mark to get sexual experience. Sure, that's what Ivy tells her to do, but Holly can actually grow to enjoy talking with Mark and for all Lena knows, she could develop an equally strong crush just like she did with Ian. We don't know with what mindset Holly pursues her relationship with Mark. Sure, she partially wants to perform Ivy's tasks and gain more sexual experience, but in the path where she dates Ian, she can be doing the exact same thing with him, opening up to be more flirtatious and kinky, sending nudes, using dirty talk, etc. On top of it, Holly can relatively quickly fall in love with Lena after being rejected by Ian if they end up having sex. So with Mark she can feel similar emotions, using him to forget about Ian but simultaneously developing an equally strong crush.
The only branch where Lena is somewhat aware that Holly's fling with Mark is casual is if she had Holly had sex with either Lena or Ivy. In this branch she knows that by hooking up with Mark Holly will simply get more experience and that after tasting him she won't suddenly stop sleeping with Ivy or Lena. But if Holly has been dealing with her heartbreak on her own, Lena can't really be sure that Holly won't catch feelings for Mark or doesn't already have them. But she knows that Holly is a sweet and romantic girl, so it's weird that she wasn't as protective of her dating Mark, and regardless of how Ivy might present it and if Mark can deny that they have anything serious, Holly can see it as a getting-to-know phase, expecting something more in the future. And while we know that she probably won't be heartbroken if Mark treats her as a fuck buddy because unlike Louise she doesn't assume anything of the relationship before talking about it, but if Lena was so protective of Holly towards Ian, she most likely thinks that Holly can't handle casual relationships. With Ian, her arguments were mostly "But Holly is different", and not "She had a crush on you!". So what exactly happened that made Lena believe that Holly is not that different anymore and can now be okay with casual sex?
I agree that not all influence is corruption especially if it's well-intentioned and mostly wholesome, but as I said earlier, corruption can be unintentional and accidental because it's not really about actions but the outcome, and can happen even without any active influence of the protagonist (or even other NPCs). Would you disagree that in GGGB Eva had a corruption arc? Because it was only triggered by Ash not warning her about Jack (a passive choice), and Jack didn't really coerce or manipulate Eva in any way, he simply hit on her and let her do what she wanted without any judgment. And with that, she dove head-first into cheating, drugs, hanging out with thugs, etc, completely on her own (well, with the help of Jack and later thugs that benefited from her thrill-seeking).
Gicoo
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- Feb 18, 2018
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If Ian doesn't fuck her, he is depressed, but Ian and Perry can pull him out of it and he does e-sport and fucks gamer girls.
If Ian steals her, he is depressed and Perry alone can't pull him out of it.
He doesn't get an elaborated view and ending, because he isn't a dateable side-character like Stan. Wade is more of an asset of Cindy's subplot rather than his own deal.
Due to chapter 10 reaction, he's a potential Ivy prospect if Ian has still done enough to help pull Wade out of his rut while failing to save their relationship. Depending on if Ian is going for Ivy or not.
Wouldn't be too surprised if he's a later-game Lena option if he's improved himself, too.
I think my only main point of disagreement with your logic is that you are associating all influence with just what's decided through the mechanical choices in a videogame, rather than what can be inferred from the relationship between the characters even without player input or direct observation by the protagonist. Saying that we can't pin more influence to characters like Ivy or Jack because the game doesn't mechanically keep track of what they do beyond that which the player can control through their choices doesn't really make sense because they are NPCs, their behavior is set on stone and the dev doesn't need to have variables to keep track of that.
What I mean is, as long as Holly's corruption to a promiscuous level that directly contradicts her established values is only possible in the route where she befriends Ivy, then you can't say Ivy had no influence just because it may be technically possible to gain all the required mechanical points without relying on her.
Regarding GGGB, my point would be that we barely see the interactions between Eva and Jack, we don't know exactly how Jack got into her head when he was "simply hitting on her". Yes Jack will say to you that he didn't do anything and only let Eva do what she wanted all along, but that's exactly the type of rationale a playboy that is extremely protective of his ego would have as his prerogative to avoid all responsability. Jack is extremely manipulative, he just isn't obsessive so he is okay with letting go if random girls give him the definitive "no", which you can fault Eva for failing to do if you don't warn her, but Eva is meant to be a malleable character in GGGB so her being extremely influenceable and, quite frankly, "corruption-bait" is just part of her design. Also add Ethan to the list of corrupting characters that claim innocence but really shouldn't be trusted, as much as he talks about "just helping Ash's mom do all the things she always secretly wanted" and "being in love with her", unless Ash is there to spice up their relationship then he always dumps her in the end like she was a broken toy, I think that says plenty about how much he actually cared for her well-being and self-improvement.
Oliver Wendell Homely
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- May 9, 2020
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I guess you're being serious, but as he is now, I can't see Wade being a viable option for anyone in this game, certainly not Ivy. Maybe if Wade wins one of his gaming competitions and becomes rich...? Short of that, he's akin to Stan with a more outgoing personality.
Geralt From Rivia
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- Jun 15, 2022
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What we saw in Ep 10 is Ivy's usual behavior - flirting and teasing. But something serious Ivy/Wade? He's just out of her league and I have no idea what and how can help this guy. Unfortunately, he just goes with the flow in his comfort zone and is not going to change anything.