VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.4] [Eva Kiss]

[Joe Steel]

People need to understand that this story has reached the hardest part of any story for any writer: the story has reached its final growth and now must be shrunk to its conclusion. That means decided how to tie off story lines, which is much trickier than creating the story lines. Payoffs have to be satisfying, and that's hard to do, one storyline after another.

Hell, George RR Martin is one of the most acclaimed fantasy writers of modern times, and he hasn't figured out how to resolve the story lines in ASOIAF after a decade of trying. JRR Tolkien was defeated for more than a year by this task. ORS doesn't have a story that complicated, but the principal is clear: closing a story is hard.

I'm in favor of giving EK all the time in the world to pull that off, because the alternative is what we saw in the Game of Thrones TV show. People who claim to be creative writers who fail to grasp this idea likely are not creative at all.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

People need to understand that this story has reached the hardest part of any story for any writer: the story has reached its final growth and now must be shrunk to its conclusion. That means decided how to tie off story lines, which is much trickier than creating the story lines. Payoffs have to be satisfying, and that's hard to do, one storyline after another.

Hell, George RR Martin is one of the most acclaimed fantasy writers of modern times, and he hasn't figured out how to resolve the story lines in ASOIAF after a decade of trying. JRR Tolkien was defeated for more than a year by this task. ORS doesn't have a story that complicated, but the principal is clear: closing a story is hard.

I'm in favor of giving EK all the time in the world to pull that off, because the alternative is what we saw in the Game of Thrones TV show. People who claim to be creative writers who fail to grasp this idea likely are not creative at all.

This game is far from its conclusion. The story barely just started and there are still a lot of characters who still have a role to play.

 

[Joe Steel]

This game is far from its conclusion. The story barely just started and there are still a lot of characters who still have a role to play.

I disagree. The story is reaching plot climaxes and now we are going to see resolutions. EK is no longer building up (major) plot lines, but is starting to pay them off.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

I disagree. The story is reaching plot climaxes and now we are going to see resolutions. EK is no longer building up (major) plot lines, but is starting to pay them off.

How? Lena only started playing into Seymour's hands and she only now "got back" with Axel. Stan has no role so far outside of being a creep, Ivy and Ed are just there, in the background.

Ian only recently started his affair with Cindy, the whole tournament thing is going nowhere for now and only just in Chapter 9 did Ian even get a chance to get into the relationship with Lena.

 

[priv.ryan]

How? Lena only started playing into Seymour's hands and she only now "got back" with Axel. Stan has no role so far outside of being a creep, Ivy and Ed are just there, in the background.

Ian only recently started his affair with Cindy, the whole tournament thing is going nowhere for now and only just in Chapter 9 did Ian even get a chance to get into the relationship with Lena.

Exactly, also to add the lena and Billy path hasn't started, gillian might get added somewhere along Ian's path, Ian x Cherry or Jess (if that's still happening) still has a lot more to it and finally EK

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so there's surely a lot more left until we reach the climax.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

Again with the vague statements. Why not? Why does it not work like that? You are telling me the Dev managed to previously release an entire Chapter under two months but she can't finish the finishing touch on Ian's part for 25 days?

You don't need to be "paid-professional" (which Eva isn't) and "of quality" to understand the creative writing process. In fact, if you were a paid-professional then you'd understand that your job depends on you delivering your work on time. Eva has been lacking.

I wasn't being vague. Because you can't comprehend it just speaks to the fact that you don't actually understand creative work. Maybe you write greeting cards, poop out crappy commercial graphic design, or something like that (though I doubt you do any of those things either). But regardless, it's not the same thing.

It's not worth explaining further, since you've proven from your reactions so far that it would be a wasted effort.

 

[BlackIsBetter]

I wasn't being vague. Because you can't comprehend it just speaks to the fact that you don't actually understand creative work. Maybe you write greeting cards, poop out crappy commercial graphic design, or something like that (though I doubt you do any of those things either). But regardless, it's not the same thing.

It's not worth explaining further, since you've proven from your reactions so far that it would be a wasted effort.

I'm also interested in what you are talking about. Could you maybe elaborate on what you mean? You just sound like you are dismissing the point without actually having anything to counter it with.

 

[Joe Steel]

How? Lena only started playing into Seymour's hands and she only now "got back" with Axel. Stan has no role so far outside of being a creep, Ivy and Ed are just there, in the background.

Ian only recently started his affair with Cindy, the whole tournament thing is going nowhere for now and only just in Chapter 9 did Ian even get a chance to get into the relationship with Lena.

Lena has played into Seymor's hands, so we have reached the climax of that story. Ian has chosen his dream girl and succeeded with her, so we have reached the climax there. Lena has ether chosen her man or chosen not to have one, so we have reached the climax there.

The climax of the story isn't the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning, and that's when writing a story starts to get hard.

So cut EK some slack.

 

[Mesmerizet]

Is the last official update (0.9) really dated as back as Oct 2021?
Guess we are nearing a year.

 

[okfairenough]

Is the last official update (0.9) really dated as back as Oct 2021?
Guess we are nearing a year.

Yeah, it sucks. I think it's because the multi protagonist approach proved too complex and is causing too much time to be spent. I wish Eva made a simpler game like GGGB.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

I wasn't being vague. Because you can't comprehend it just speaks to the fact that you don't actually understand creative work. Maybe you write greeting cards, poop out crappy commercial graphic design, or something like that (though I doubt you do any of those things either). But regardless, it's not the same thing.

It's not worth explaining further, since you've proven from your reactions so far that it would be a wasted effort.

I'm also interested in what you are talking about. Could you maybe elaborate on what you mean? You just sound like you are dismissing the point without actually having anything to counter it with.

Way in the first post, I was replying to this: "So tell me again, how is it not "reality"? How come she still hasn't finished Ian's part 25 days after saying she is "finishing writing Ian's part?" "

If you can't understand how stories can change as you're writing them, that you go back and touch things up, discover a different tangent, or add foreshadowing to an earlier part of a chapter based on something you discovered in the writing in a later part, then you don't have a good understanding of how the creative process works.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Lena has played into Seymor's hands, so we have reached the climax of that story. Ian has chosen his dream girl and succeeded with her, so we have reached the climax there. Lena has ether chosen her man or chosen not to have one, so we have reached the climax there.

This is literally just when the things are starting to get interesting. What will come from Ian having an affair with Cindy if he is with Lena? Hell, what will happen with Ian if he has an affair with Cindy behind Wade's back? What about his writing contest and his boss that he is hate-fucking behind her husbands back? What will come from Lena/Ian cheating behind Ian/Lena's back? All I'm saying is, if you expect this to be the climax of the story then that would be incredibly disappointing.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Way in the first post, I was replying to this: "So tell me again, how is it not "reality"? How come she still hasn't finished Ian's part 25 days after saying she is "finishing writing Ian's part?" "

If you can't understand how stories can change as you're writing them, that you go back and touch things up, discover a different tangent, or add foreshadowing to an earlier part of a chapter based on something you discovered in the writing in a later part, then you don't have a good understanding of how the creative process works.

You literally said nothing with this. It's again just broad terms you are throwing around with 0 meaning. Yes, I do understand stuff gets changed all the time, that isn't the point. The point is that the Dev is clearly lacking with delivering the product and not doing anything to change.

You aren't explaining why I'm wrong to think so, you are just telling me why the thing is the way it is, which I always understood.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

You literally said nothing with this. It's again just broad terms you are throwing around with 0 meaning. Yes, I do understand stuff gets changed all the time, that isn't the point. The point is that the Dev is clearly lacking with delivering the product and not doing anything to change.

You aren't explaining why I'm wrong to think so, you are just telling me why the thing is the way it is, which I always understood.

I'm saying that your "proof" she wasn't working on it is bullshit, since that's not how writing works. Based on your responses, it seemed obvious that you did not understand that. But now, of course, you're changing the goalpost. I agree with this part: "the Dev is clearly lacking with delivering the product". But that's not what you claimed in the post I referred to and not what I was disputing.

"Not doing anything to change" - also bullshit, if you've read her most recent post. Will hiring a new artist and outsourcing even more for coding help cut the time down for future releases? Who knows. We hope so. But that's clearly doing something "to change."

 

[JohnnyKiss]

I'm saying that your "proof" she wasn't working on it is bullshit, since that's not how writing works. Based on your responses, it seemed obvious that you did not understand that. But now, of course, you're changing the goalpost. I agree with this part: "the Dev is clearly lacking with delivering the product". But that's not what you claimed in the post I referred to and not what I was disputing.

"Not doing anything to change" - also bullshit, if you've read her most recent post. Will hiring a new artist and outsourcing even more for coding help cut the time down for future releases? Who knows. We hope so. But that's clearly doing something "to change."

She wasn't working on it for a week at least. The Dev literally said that XD. It's more likely she skipped 2 weeks because there is a missing timeframe between July 8th and 22nd where we got no status update until the 22nd where she said she is on a vacation.

The Remaster of Chapter 9 was meant to "Speed-up" the development process and make it easier but look at where we are. Nothing changed. It's clear as day that the dev is lacking, stop defending it.

 

[RandomCl]

Lena has played into Seymor's hands, so we have reached the climax of that story. Ian has chosen his dream girl and succeeded with her, so we have reached the climax there. Lena has ether chosen her man or chosen not to have one, so we have reached the climax there.

The climax of the story isn't the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning, and that's when writing a story starts to get hard.

So cut EK some slack.

You trying way too hard to look smart and as if you knew about writing process talking about RR Martin and Tolkien when we can tell you don't know the first thing about writing, pal.
If you were to compare ORS narrative arc to any fantasy book (as you did) we wouldn't be getting to the climax, on the contrary, Frodo/hero just left the Shire/initial town.
We're done with the beginning (introduction of main characters, traits, themes, drivers, etc), with next update we getting into the middle. Which in most stories is the hardest to write to be fair as normally is the most boring so authors struggle to make it interesting enough for people to remain hooked lol

 

[okal]

rate of progress ≠ speed of progress. Some things can't be rushed, CDPR (and a lot of AAA studios) can attest to that. Investors want more than their money back sure, but being too impatient can backfire

We are long, long past “rushing” anything. Just as we are long, long past “impatience.” We are at stagnancy, while the money flows in at virtually the same rate, sans one throwaway month and trickling off patrons. It’s not my money, so that is what it is. I’m just talking about a creator filling progress reports with more reasons as to why there’s no progress for about a year and the obsequiousness/credulity towards that creator.

 

[BloodyMares]

I disagree. The story is reaching plot climaxes and now we are going to see resolutions. EK is no longer building up (major) plot lines, but is starting to pay them off.

I wouldn't drastically separate the 2 stages and say that we're moving to resolutions. Act 1 is over or almost over, transitioning into Act 2, where the buildup that happened in Act 1 picks up the pace and moves into the different juicy scenarios. There will still be build-up but instead of "unlocking" love interests the game will focus on character development, not only of protagonists but NPC characters as well. There are still many more opportunities not only for exciting scenarios but also drama based on the existing paths crossing over. Perry is about to become Lena's colleague. Alison on Jeremy's path is becoming so naughty we can only guess where both Jeremy and Billy will lead her without Ian slowing her down. Holly is only happy to learn from Ivy / Ian and work on overcoming her shyness almost no questions asked. Ian is about to start working for Seymour's company and is going to move his "eskimo bro" status with Jeremy to the new level. Lena's life is about to change completely based on how she dealt with Seymour, and if she couldn't resist Axel, that really complicates her relationship with Ian. Something weird is going on with Louise on Jeremy's path. Mike is falling for Lena and now can't resist her desires even if it might get him in trouble with his girlfriend.

The game might also introduce new story arcs featuring characters we haven't seen before or unlock sexual content for remaining established characters (Jess, Ivy). But yeah I doubt the story will continue its slow-burn build-up speed, that stage has been passed. Now the events have to play at a more rapid pace, but I hope Act 3 won't speed up even more, turning into mindless fuck-fest like it was in GGGB. And hopefully with more time spent on the writing, that will be avoided.

 

[CoalPhelps]

Now the events have to play at a more rapid pace, but I hope Act 3 won't speed up even more, turning into mindless fuck-fest like it was in GGGB. And hopefully with more time spent on the writing, that will be avoided.

Finally someone said it. GGGB was great and one of the best VNs in existence in many ways, but it tends to be too idolized here, especially among those who don't like the slow-burn build-up in ORS. But near the end, GGGB was too blurry and everything looked like Eva was trying to finish it quickly to get away with it. The dialogues were reduced to:
"Hey, how's it going at work."
"You know, nothing much."
"Yeah, whatever, let's fuck already."

 

[Vernalcash]

Finally someone said it. GGGB was great and one of the best VNs in existence in many ways, but it tends to be too idolized here, especially among those who don't like the slow-burn build-up in ORS. But near the end, GGGB was too blurry and everything looked like Eve was trying to finish it quickly to get away with it. The dialogues were reduced to:
"Hey, how's it going at work."
"You know, nothing much."
"Yeah, whatever, let's fuck already."

And that's how she managed to have one new version each month and why ORS is taking longer.