VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.14.1.4 Beta] [Eva Kiss]

[SharkVampire]

The comparison to the Game of Thrones books was only about the length of the script, not about the complexity of the story. And I only remember the statement vaguely, so it might have been something else it was compared to. Either way the point was that the full script, with all its different paths, variations in dialogue etc., is a lot longer than it seems from a playthrough or two, and writing all of it in advance would take a lot of time.

Also the challenge of balancing content for the different paths and characters would've been the same even if Eva wrote the full script in advance — we just wouldn't have the same experience of it, and it wouldn't be as striking if one character was left out of an episode or two, because the wait wouldn't be as long. Eva would still have to find the right flow on how to progress the different storylines simultaneously, the same way she does now.

I can't speak for Eva's finances, but I doubt you become rich from having a couple of thousand patrons, when a good share of that probably go to Patreon and all the people she hires to do background art etc. If this is the game Eva wanted to make, I'm glad she didn't compromise and made a shorter game with a less complex story. Even if that means that the wait for the complete game is longer, and a few rewrites to fix details in already released chapters. The fact that there's less juicy scenes than at the same point of GGGB, is probably not about the development priorities, but rather that this is a slow burner in a way GGGB was not.

I wanted to double-check what she said about having no plans for the upcoming chapters, that she had no certain plan of action, but for some reason her interview disappeared from the website that provided it, and Google doesn't help either.

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I can only say that it really struck me, I was surprised the fact that she always coming up with new content only after she finish current chapter, probably that's why I remembered it.
I gave some thought to what you're saying and I partly agree that it's time-consuming, but that doesn't mean I'm going back my words, though. There is a reason why devs abandoning they projects here in there, and one of the reason is that they bite more than they can chew. Knowing that most of them novice devs, they simply don't know they ability's, they coming up with great ideas and when something go wrong they give up. Eva, on other hand, has at least 1 finished project, so she slightly above those novice writers, but still it stroke her as well, somewhere around chapter 4. So my thought was about having at least some plan, short version of script, if you want. Where you may skip dialogues and detailed scene explanation, but describing key moments. For example: Ian will face Lena and start argue with her about her obsession with BBC, there will be 2 decisions for him, accept it and become cuck, or break up with her; Next scene, Lena coming home and see Stan playing with Lola, she got excited at the thought of these two cute little creatures and approached Stan (small explanation of sex scene). And while it still be time consuming, I doubt it will take year or so, but still it will be a plan, following which she would avoid many of the problems she is now facing.

 

[bauman]

I wanted to double-check what she said about having no plans for the upcoming chapters, that she had no certain plan of action, but for some reason her interview disappeared from the website that provided it, and Google doesn't help either.

You must be registered to see the links

I can only say that it really struck me, I was surprised the fact that she always coming up with new content only after she finish current chapter, probably that's why I remembered it.
I gave some thought to what you're saying and I partly agree that it's time-consuming, but that doesn't mean I'm going back my words, though. There is a reason why devs abandoning they projects here in there, and one of the reason is that they bite more than they can chew. Knowing that most of them novice devs, they simply don't know they ability's, they coming up with great ideas and when something go wrong they give up. Eva, on other hand, has at least 1 finished project, so she slightly above those novice writers, but still it stroke her as well, somewhere around chapter 4. So my thought was about having at least some plan, short version of script, if you want. Where you may skip dialogues and detailed scene explanation, but describing key moments. For example: Ian will face Lena and start argue with her about her obsession with BBC, there will be 2 decisions for him, accept it and become cuck, or break up with her; Next scene, Lena coming home and see Stan playing with Lola, she got excited at the thought of these two cute little creatures and approached Stan (small explanation of sex scene). And while it still be time consuming, I doubt it will take year or so, but still it will be a plan, following which she would avoid many of the problems she is now facing.

It's on the archive:

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Regarding her writing:

I define that duality with a different metaphor. They say there are two kinds of writers, the ones who use a map (that would be the architect) and the ones who use a compass. The first ones know beforehand the route they'll take, it's clearly outlined in their map. The second ones just use the compass to guide themselves in the general direction they want to go, making the path as they walk. It's clear some outlining is necessary when writing almost anything, especially a game like this, but I'm clearly a compass writer (or gardener). I enjoy developing the story as I go, flowing with it and letting the characters surprise me and often times take me in unexpected directions. This can sometimes be troublesome and I'm trying to outline things a bit better in ORS, but if I stopped developing the game organically I would get bored: this way I feel the story and the characters are alive, just like I am.

 

[JohnnySolo]

Yes it's the steven seagal look hopefully stan will have a new attitude and karate chop anyone who gets near his beloved Lena.

Well, and I would love to see an “I just kicked Stan!” scene with Ian as Shawn Michaels and Jeremey as HHH….

For the ones who don’t know what I mean:

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[dundun]

for some reason her interview disappeared from the website that provided it, and Google doesn't help either.

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The link changed.

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[DavDR]

it's the actual conditions a developer is working under, and it's pretty meaningless to discuss the game's development as a theoretical excercise without looking at the limitations that exists.

No not really. A creator working projects and 'Gig' jobs doesn't live on a steady salary, like an hourly worker. At least they didn't before platforms like Patreon, and that's one of the things I consider most poisonous about the Patreon model of game development. It's games by subscription, the very same thing that the AAA Developers have been trying to implement for some time now.

 

[DavDR]

Not only that not really not that hard legit turn on skip all and cheats and make a save at each choice, it took me what all but 45 minutes to get all the scenes not that really that many varying choices.

Unless your goal is to hurry through the decision points so you can unlock sex scenes I don't see how that would work with a story as complex as this one. As Stan's personality changes and he becomes a potential LI his interactions with Lena effect not just their relationship but also Lena's relationship with the other characters.

 

[MaliPizdek]

new Cindy content when??

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

So my thought was about having at least some plan, short version of script, if you want. Where you may skip dialogues and detailed scene explanation, but describing key moments. For example: Ian will face Lena and start argue with her about her obsession with BBC, there will be 2 decisions for him, accept it and become cuck, or break up with her; Next scene, Lena coming home and see Stan playing with Lola, she got excited at the thought of these two cute little creatures and approached Stan (small explanation of sex scene). And while it still be time consuming, I doubt it will take year or so, but still it will be a plan, following which she would avoid many of the problems she is now facing.

Yeah, I was gonna say something similar, but skipped it because my post already was so long. But I agree that a solution like this seems more realistic. It would probably make it easier to realize earlier that Stan as a character wasn't working, at least.

In the interview Eva also says that "if I stopped developing the game organically I would get bored: this way I feel the story and the characters are alive, just like I am". I think that's probably the main thing that needs to be balanced: having enough of a plan to make sure she's not wasting too much time writing the story into dead ends, but still keeping it open enough to let "the characters surprise me and often times take me in unexpected directions". On the paths where it's obvious Eva's planned some of the key moments, I think she's mostly accomplishing that (to the extent it's possible for us to tell), on other paths — like Stan's — maybe not so much.

No not really. A creator working projects and 'Gig' jobs doesn't live on a steady salary, like an hourly worker. At least they didn't before platforms like Patreon, and that's one of the things I consider most poisonous about the Patreon model of game development. It's games by subscription, the very same thing that the AAA Developers have been trying to implement for some time now.

But that's a different discussion. I don't have any strong feelings about Patreon — it has its strengths and weaknesses. But on the topic of ORS' work flow and how to optimize it, it's surely more relevant to look at how the Patreon models actually affects it, instead of discussing whether other models would be better or not.

Maybe you have some save ?

I don't think I have one for that particular route, but it should be pretty straightforward to reach it if you make sure Lena's on good terms with Ivy and Holly, and not dating Ian. You also need to encourage Holly to continue taking the pole dancing classes. And then when Lena, Holly and Ivy meet at Ivy's place in chapter 6, you need to stay there and have another drink instead of going home and watch a movie with Holly.

 

[DavDR]

Yeah, I was gonna say something similar, but skipped it because my post already was so long. But I agree that a solution like this seems more realistic. It would probably make it easier to realize earlier that Stan as a character wasn't working, at least.

In the interview Eva also says that "if I stopped developing the game organically I would get bored: this way I feel the story and the characters are alive, just like I am". I think that's probably the main thing that needs to be balanced: having enough of a plan to make sure she's not wasting too much time writing the story into dead ends, but still keeping it open enough to let "the characters surprise me and often times take me in unexpected directions". On the paths where it's obvious Eva's planned some of the key moments, I think she's mostly accomplishing that (to the extent it's possible for us to tell), on other paths — like Stan's — maybe not so much.



But that's a different discussion. I don't have any strong feelings about Patreon — it has its strengths and weaknesses. But on the topic of ORS' work flow and how to optimize it, it's surely more relevant to look at how the Patreon models actually affects it, instead of discussing whether other models would be better or not.



I don't think I have one for that particular route, but it should be pretty straightforward to reach it if you make sure Lena's on good terms with Ivy and Holly, and not dating Ian. You also need to encourage Holly to continue taking the pole dancing classes. And then when Lena, Holly and Ivy meet at Ivy's place in chapter 6, you need to stay there and have another drink instead of going home and watch a movie with Holly.

No, you keep taking the conversation down different paths. The original point was that the Dev's income has no impact on a discussion of how the game is written. This is just a business transaction, the Dev offers a product and I, as a consumer, decide if I want to buy it or not. I don't give a damn about if the Dev operates at a profit or a loss, that's their problem.

 

[lockerxx]

new Cindy content when??

maybe when evakiss start working in the 0.10 version

 

[Deleted member 53157]

I hope during MMA tournament you can fuck cindy in Locker room while wade waits at the seating area.

 

[XXXVAA]

I hope during MMA tournament you can fuck cindy in Locker room while wade waits at the seating area.

and i hope we can beat up jeremy and maybe he stops being so annoying.

 

[Corellien]

I wanted to double-check what she said about having no plans for the upcoming chapters, that she had no certain plan of action, but for some reason her interview disappeared from the website that provided it, and Google doesn't help either.

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The new link of the interview:

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[mommysboiii]

I hope during MMA tournament you can fuck cindy in Locker room while wade waits at the seating area.

and i hope he will get cucked with holly or cindy if he performcse very bad in fight or lose a bet because ivy is evil

 

[mommysboiii]

View attachment 1621800

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Hi guys,

When it rains it pours, or so they say. Last time I told you about how I was falling behind with ORS' production due to burnout and some other issues and now I got the "unspecified virus of unknown origin", I've spent most of the week in bed feeling like shit, so production hasn't exactly ramped up.
I've been thinking about it for a while and I've decided that starting February I will put all charges on my page on hold. I feel I'm not giving you enough value for your money at this moment and it doesn't sit right with me.

I've said in the past that I'm the one looking forward to new releases the most, and that I really wish I could still publish every single month. I can't wait to realize the ideas I have for ORS and there are also several other projects in the back of my mind I'd love to bring to life at some point too. Taking too long to release a new chapter becomes stressful to me, especially considering this business model: a monthly subscription deserves to be rewarded by a flow of continuous content, and ORS is far from a finished piece. That means that work is never over, and as soon as the last chapter is released, pressure to get the next one ready starts lighting a fire under my feet. I've already talked about it in previous posts, but after more than 4 years of uninterrupted work and due to other personal issues, I found myself feeling quite burnt out after Chapter 9.

I know some of you kindly warned me about that pitfall but I guess I just ran with it because that was the only way I was able to keep myself on the loop, and I still stand by that choice. And because I want to get back in that loop, I want to feel at ease to keep working on this big project. I take your support really seriously, so the constant anxiety of delivering content worthy of your hard earned money has been eating at me. I'm not sure if I'm shooting myself in the foot here, but I think it's the right thing to do and it'll help me get back into things with less stress

I haven't been able to do that recently, so I'm looking to turn that around. So rest assured I will continue to work to bring you quality content and finish ORS like I've always intended to do. The review of the first 9 chapters + Stan's integral rework should not take much longer (it's already taken too long), followed by that Steam release I always talk about and I haven't been able to make a reality yet.

This was hard to write, I hope I did a good job. I know this is far from ideal and I hope I didn't make things sound worse than they actually are. There's a lot of cool stuff coming for ORS, I just want to get it out more efficiently. As always, I want to keep things open and transparent when it comes to the game's development. I'll keep you posted, so stay tuned for next week.
Thanks a bunch guys!

--------

 

[BloodyMares]

If she had full script beforehand, she could tell does she like it or not after rereading it.

One question. WHEN would you expect her to write the entire outline for the full game? After finishing GGGB, she didn't have 1 or 2 years break to flesh out the complete multi-branching script like big-name authors and script-writers of AAA production do. And if you talk about TV shows, there are still around 6-months breaks between ending the first season and working on the next. And scriptwriters have an entirely different schedule - their work is complete before the shooting and other production starts.

Here, Eva is the entire production crew plus the "guy in a suit" who has to worry about marketing and PR etc. She doesn't have the luxury to rest and write for the next chapter while an art director comes up with sex scene compositions and finds references for background art etc so that the artists could work on the art and finally the coders convert written text into the Ren'py script. For now, she only has the colorists to help her, a coder, a proofreader, and a couple of slaves (yours truly and Lara) to work on the gallery and test bugs. Everything else requires a constant stream of production.

No, you keep taking the conversation down different paths. The original point was that the Dev's income has no impact on a discussion of how the game is written. This is just a business transaction, the Dev offers a product and I, as a consumer, decide if I want to buy it or not. I don't give a damn about if the Dev operates at a profit or a loss, that's their problem.

Except it wasn't the original point of the conversation. The original point is that Eva has patrons waiting for her continuous releases. Her patrons get charged up-front each month by Patreon and it was a suitable model for GGGB because the releases were much shorter and the production was faster. But once you pick a charging method on Patreon, you can't undo it, even if you'd like to and you're stuck to that release model. So your fantasies about Eva getting paid per finished update don't address this point at all. There's nothing that can be done about it except pausing the payments (as she did) when you're struggling with delivery. You say you don't give a damn about dev's losses, but do you care about the game's quality? Because you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[SharkVampire]

One question. WHEN would you expect her to write the entire outline for the full game? After finishing GGGB, she didn't have 1 or 2 years break to flesh out the complete multi-branching script like big-name authors and script-writers of AAA production do. And if you talk about TV shows, there are still around 6-months breaks between ending the first season and working on the next. And scriptwriters have an entirely different schedule - their work is complete before the shooting and other production starts.

This is a weird question, since I already told what I think about it in my previous posts. As I corrected myself in third post, the small script still would do a thing, and it won't take an year or so, but since I found her interview and read it again, all this discussion is pointless. She believe that the way she doing things suits her the most, her "compass" approach. Well, I'm not judging that, lets the result will speak for itself. As I said before, I won't be surprised in the future delays and more burnouts.

You know, I also read other developers and the way they managing their games, and the ones who talked about their workflow, almost all of them said that they have a plan of the story. I don't know how detailed they script is, but to me it seems like a natural thing to do when making a game. I also see developers releasing a new game after the previous one is finished only after some time, from six months to a year, and I assume, they spent that time putting together a detailed plan for their game, not just vacationing in the Bahamas.

But, to be honest, I don't see much point to discuss this further, because she not gonna read this anyway (Her absence on this forum has always frustrated me), and hence will not judge the thought that has been spoken.

 

[Eyser]

It may be a silly question to ask, but since so many different ways of naming versions are used by other games... does version 0.9 mean it is 90% done or 9% done? Roughly speaking of course and without a request for a release date which would be insane to ask.
GGGB is an awesome game and prefer to wait for the finished product and curious whether it is close to final or still just in the very early stages of development.

 

[DavDR]

One question. WHEN would you expect her to write the entire outline for the full game? After finishing GGGB, she didn't have 1 or 2 years break to flesh out the complete multi-branching script like big-name authors and script-writers of AAA production do. And if you talk about TV shows, there are still around 6-months breaks between ending the first season and working on the next. And scriptwriters have an entirely different schedule - their work is complete before the shooting and other production starts.

Here, Eva is the entire production crew plus the "guy in a suit" who has to worry about marketing and PR etc. She doesn't have the luxury to rest and write for the next chapter while an art director comes up with sex scene compositions and finds references for background art etc so that the artists could work on the art and finally the coders convert written text into the Ren'py script. For now, she only has the colorists to help her, a coder, a proofreader, and a couple of slaves (yours truly and Lara) to work on the gallery and test bugs. Everything else requires a constant stream of production.



Except it wasn't the original point of the conversation. The original point is that Eva has patrons waiting for her continuous releases. Her patrons get charged up-front each month by Patreon and it was a suitable model for GGGB because the releases were much shorter and the production was faster. But once you pick a charging method on Patreon, you can't undo it, even if you'd like to and you're stuck to that release model. So your fantasies about Eva getting paid per finished update don't address this point at all. There's nothing that can be done about it except pausing the payments (as she did) when you're struggling with delivery. You say you don't give a damn about dev's losses, but do you care about the game's quality? Because you can't have your cake and eat it too.

When you buy a car are you concerned about the manufacturers bottom line? How about the place you buy your groceries? Do you get pangs of guilt when you shop at another market? Or how about a streaming service like Netflix, are you a loyal supporter or do you switch back and forth between streamers after you binge your favorite episodes?

This is a business transaction. Eva offers a product for sale and I choose to buy it for not, that's all.

 

[BloodyMares]

It may be a silly question to ask, but since so many different ways of naming versions are used by other games... does version 0.9 mean it is 90% done or 9% done? Roughly speaking of course and without a request for a release date which would be insane to ask.
GGGB is an awesome game and prefer to wait for the finished product and curious whether it is close to final or still just in the very early stages of development.

It would be the latter, but not an accurate percentage. The version number corresponds with the chapter number for easy association. So v0.9 = Chapter 9. Chapter 10 will be v0.10. We don't know how many chapters in total it will take yet, around 20 - 40. So if v0.30 would mean the game is 95% complete, v0.9 means that it's only 25-30% complete.