VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12 BETA] [Eva Kiss]

[Doppelgang]

I don't want to sound whiny or anything, and I respect Eva who is by far my favourite creator in this kind of game. But there's one bit of logic which I don't get here. People are defending the slow progress based on the increasingly complexity of the game.

When she started she had less resources, less experience and she delivered faster progress, doesn't matter how you do the math, more scenes and plot was developed in the beggining of this game per month.

Thing is, according to Graphteon, she is currently making 5 to 15k per month, that is while she has released no actual new content in 8+ months, 3? if you count the "remaster". I have read here she is spanish (not sure if that's true), but I am spanish too, and live in Madrid which is the most expensive city in the country, and here you can make a decent living with around 1k easily. To my understanding she could very easily spend that money in directing a small team that delivers faster and better, but prefers to keep working in a similar way and simply live a better life. Which again, is completely respectable and is kind of the way Patreon works.

I'm just posting this because I don't agree with the logic that now is understandable that she delivers slower, the fact is that now she has a lot more experience and a lot more resources potentially.

The things is, the amount of content per month has been relatively stable throughout the development of both of Evakiss’ games. I did a search and found this post from a while ago:

GGGB had about 7000 lines of code per update and it took a month. Chapters 2 to 5 took about 1.5 months and had around 10000 lines of code. Chapters 6 to 8 had about 20000 lines of code and took about 3 months. So she has been very consistant until chapter 9.

That doesn’t include Chapter 9 (which it’s true had a slower production pace, but also included Eva taking her first vacation in several years), or the remake (which isn’t possible to quantify in the same way). Still, the bottom line is the same: The often mentioned “truth” that the production pace has gradually gotten worse and worse, seems drastically exaggerated if we look at the actual numbers.

It’s not completely true either that she “prefers to keep working in a similar way” instead of spending money on getting help. In GGGB all the backgrounds were pretty amateurish looking photographs edited in Photoshop, with ORS she’s hired a professional studio to make them. She’s also hired a colourist for the art, and the jump in quality is significant on both fronts.

You naturally know more than me about how much is needed to make a living in Spain, but I did a quick search, and from what I could find the average monthly salary is about 2,700€, and 1,000€ is even below the minimum wage. I have no idea how much Eva has left after Patreon fees, paying the artist I mentioned and other expenses, but I think it’s more fair to compare to average wage than a sum you can survive on, but is significantly lower than what most others in her country earn in a month.

 

[Night Hacker]

Good game, well worth the wait. Keep up the good work dev. Some of us are patient and appreciate your work.

 

[naoligopraisso]

honestly, i read all this massive amount of text and i still don't understand what the point is,
did i say the game is bad? No
Did I say I don't like it? No
Have I ever criticized or mocked conditions such as depression, stress, or writing block? no, on the contrary, I agree with that, there's nothing to deny about it, I myself didn't go ahead with my projects just because of the time and stress of doing something like that.


But does that change any of the facts I cited?

Eva haded the habit of post updates between 1 to 2 months? yea
Was the last real update for the story development in November last year? yea
Is it becoming commonplace for developers to take longer and longer to deliver updates to players compared to when they started the project? Definitely yes, as I said, I can name several.

I find it at least curious and funny how many people were offended by me using the term "milking", and I didn't really accuse Eva of doing that, I simply gave my opinion based on my experiences that this type of situation tends to be an increasing pattern.

 

[properastern]

Hi all, new poster but long time follower to this thread and a big fan of ORS and GGGB.

In regards to the recent discussion, obviously there's a lot of differing views with the length of the current update release and I can understand that producing these updates involves lots of work and that like any project there can be periods where work slows down for different reasons. I think what would go a long way though in order to keep her fanbase happy during these long periods is to stick to her commitment of weekly status updates on the progress of the game. Even though it may just be pretty much saying the same thing each week and there may not be much work to show, it still feels like the game is moving forward and it gives fans something to look forward to each week in between updates and builds confidence. I know personally, I really look forward at the start of each week looking for the weekly status update on the game and makes me feel a part of the process so I feel disappointed when a couple of weeks at a time get skipped when really it only takes like no more than 30 minutes in a day to update her fanbase.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I have faith in EVA and undoubtedly ORS is in a league of its own. Good work to the Dev on all she has accomplished so far and I wish her all the best with the ambitious project she is undertaking.

 

[naoligopraisso]

honestly I may sound like a hater maybe, but really all I wanted was for games that I liked the art, the story or both, didn't suffer from delays, abandonment or organization problems.
yeah, I know that criticizing, especially here, won't change anything in the game's development (yes, I know, gentlemen of the obvious), but I also don't think my freedom of opinion should be stifled, just because we all agree that the game is amazing.

 

[Mammal186]

honestly, i read all this massive amount of text and i still don't understand what the point is,
did i say the game is bad? No
Did I say I don't like it? No
Have I ever criticized or mocked conditions such as depression, stress, or writing block? no, on the contrary, I agree with that, there's nothing to deny about it, I myself didn't go ahead with my projects just because of the time and stress of doing something like that.


But does that change any of the facts I cited?

Eva haded the habit of post updates between 1 to 2 months? yea
Was the last real update for the story development in November last year? yea
Is it becoming commonplace for developers to take longer and longer to deliver updates to players compared to when they started the project? Definitely yes, as I said, I can name several.

I find it at least curious and funny how many people were offended by me using the term "milking", and I didn't really accuse Eva of doing that, I simply gave my opinion based on my experiences that this type of situation tends to be an increasing pattern.

So to sum up.. You would like to criticize but you, yourself, would like to not be criticized for your offering. Evakiss is 100% a viable target for critique. By putting something out there, you take that as a given. Not everyone is going to like what you have to offer. This is fine
You put your opinion on a public forum. Not everyone is going to agree with you. This is also fine.

We don't have to disagree like we are trying to beat others into submission. Put your best take forward, and fucking leave it there. If you have presented a valid and compelling argument you may convince others. If you haven't then that is ok as well.

 

[CoalPhelps]

1.Ian+Cindy+Lena(I do think this one has a very good chance of happening and also i'm a Cindy simp so there is a personal bias)
5.Ian+Alison+Emma(3 people who know each other for some time and we know that Alison is willing to do a lot of things in order to please Ian and Emma doesn't mind having sex with people she knows a long time and considers friends).

These two sound very complicated.


Cindy and Lena barely interacted, but their first meeting didn't go well, plus if they both go to Axel's photo shoot, Cindy doesn't react well to her appearance either. Of course, it's not necessary for a threesome for all parties to make out with each other on a daily basis, but animosity can get in the way and so far she and Lena don't have very good chemistry.

There's no problem with Emma in this situation, but Allison is another story. On the one hand, because of her simping to Ian, she is willing to do anything for him. But on the other hand, given how yandere she is and how she reacts when she finds out about Ian's flings and when he flirts in front of her with Ivy, as well as constantly asking about Lena and the status of his relationship with her — such an offer from Ian might be crossing her line.

 

[Lady Aspen]

Wallpaper

 

[mer2333]

https://f95zone.to/threads/our-red-string-fan-art.111327/post-8663277

 

[Ceesko]

If Lena shuts off axel entirely (does not meet him). Axel does not find out about Ian and Lena and Cindy does not find out about Axel and Lena history.

In any case, I would love if there will be a competition or jealousy between Lena and Cindy over the guy they are interested in (Ian or Axel)

 

[selberdreher]

Thing is, according to Graphteon, she is currently making 5 to 15k per month

First of all, kutrebar, thank you for your insight from Madrid.

At first glance i do agree, that those are impressive numbers. But they are in no way 'bruto por neto', which means:

1. Credit Card Companies and/or PayPal take their cut: 1% to 3% of total revenue, lets say 1.5%
2. Patreon takes its cut: 5%-12% Platform Fees, lets say 8.5% to stay in the middle
3. Patreon takes Payment Processing Fees: hard to calculate, because Patreon deliberately obfuscates the cost by implementing a relative cut of 5% or 2.9% and a flat base cost of 0.1 $ and 0.3$ PER every single pledge. Lets stay low and say 3% from every single pledge, that makes also 3% of the total revenue. They also take 'unknown' fees to process foreign currency pledges to €.
4. Patreon is legally required to collect VAT from European Union (EU) patrons. Current rate in Spain is 21% VAT.
5. So from this whopping 5k to 15k $ roughly 2/3rds are transferred to your "creator balance" at Patreon. Well, but we need those shinies in our bank account, right? Can do says Patreon, we will transfer them for an -again- deliberatly obfuscated "Pay Out Fee" to your personal bank account. Insert random number here, to get nice numbers i just say 35€ on the low and 100€ on the high end of the revenue. Could be higher, could be lower.
6. So from all those above you get roughly between 3300€ and 9900€ transferred into your account. Still nice, right? Well, kinda. Because now it is the time la 'Agencia Tributaria' takes its turn and applies an Income Tax. I think it is not unreasonable to assume 20%-25% for this, which leaves the Dev with like 2640€ to 7425€, thats half of the starting numbers.
7. I previously mentioned the social security system in Spain? Right, that's also not for free, so la 'Seguridad Social' takes roughly another 38% from the 3300€ to 9900€ but it is capped at 4070€, i am no accountant, but this should be like minus 1255€ on the low end and 1545€ on the high end. Although there are probably also free caps on the low end.
8. Anyway our Dev can spent now between 1385€ and 5880€ per month, in lets say Madrid. Average rent of a non-city one room appartement (that's decent?), is around 755€, lets apply this for the low end. Leaves 630€ for food, clothes, necessities, power, internet, phoneservice, water, dirt water and waste removal. Kinda the basics you know. I really hope EvaKiss doesn't make only 5k on Patreon.
9. Things look of course better on the high end of that income, however it is not unreasonable to assume that they don't hit those 15k $ every month. Ah, and i didn't even mention a possible loan yet, because you know, for hardware and stuff.
10. And last but not least those outsourced cooperation partners need to get payed as well. Insert anything from 500€ to 2000€ for that probably.

So, you guys see, as impressive those initial numbers were, Spain is not [insert random low income country here], and to live modest, our Dev need to make atleast 6k to 7k dollars on patreon and for a comfortable, average lifestyle probably around 8k to 9k. Even if they constantly rake in those high end 15k per month, they don't get exactly rich, they just make good money, on par with an engineer perhaps. Just ask your local self-employed plumber with perhaps an apprentice and an employee how much revenue they need to create each month to keep their business running, i expect them to be in the ballpark of 20k.

That leaves your valid question, why EvaKiss seems not to create content as fast as they did in the beginning. There were several answers in this thread, which may be right or wrong, who knows.

However, i think the myth of EvaKiss is sipping champagne on their own private island, with the money of those poor, naive simps, is sufficiently busted.

 

[Sorrow85]

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Hi guys,

After my week off I've kept working at chapter 10 and I'm almost done with Ian's part. All that's left is to finish a couple scenes and revise everything, adding and correcting when needed. The art's all drawn and I've been editing the colored versions, producing some of the final illustrations.

As I keep trying to push the pace, manage all the aspects of the project and the business and keep the final quality to the standard you're used to, I struggle between taking my time and rushing, and as you know, I always feel like I'm lagging behind. My goal is to provide the best game I can, but also to keep you entertained with content, and I hate feeling I'm taking too long.

Some of you suggested in the past that I could release the chapters in two separate blocks, since Ian and Lena have parallel story lines. It's not the way I envisioned it, but you guys deserve some content and I've decided that's the way I'll do it for Chapter 10. This way you'll be able to play Ian's part of the chapter during August, and I can also share with you the results of all the work that we've been doing during these past weeks.

I'll finish writing everything this week and keep working on finalizing the art, then all that's left would be to playtest and iron out all the bugs. Hopefully you can enjoy all the new scenes and story developments, and Lena's part should be coming shortly after.

Thanks again for your support and I hope you'll enjoy what's coming

-----

 

[RedGlow]

This way you'll be able to play Ian's part of the chapter during August

Nope. I will wait whole update. Not my cup of tea. Anyway, thanks for sharing.

 

[Rickster82]

How many status reports until the release of 0.10? 100? 1000? Extremely stretched. The updates used to come much faster. It's not a criticism, just a statement.

 

[Ceesko]

Looking forward to Ian part (and some Cindy content).

 

[Geralt From Rivia]

View attachment 1961510

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Hi guys,

After my week off I've kept working at chapter 10 and I'm almost done with Ian's part. All that's left is to finish a couple scenes and revise everything, adding and correcting when needed. The art's all drawn and I've been editing the colored versions, producing some of the final illustrations.

As I keep trying to push the pace, manage all the aspects of the project and the business and keep the final quality to the standard you're used to, I struggle between taking my time and rushing, and as you know, I always feel like I'm lagging behind. My goal is to provide the best game I can, but also to keep you entertained with content, and I hate feeling I'm taking too long.

Some of you suggested in the past that I could release the chapters in two separate blocks, since Ian and Lena have parallel story lines. It's not the way I envisioned it, but you guys deserve some content and I've decided that's the way I'll do it for Chapter 10. This way you'll be able to play Ian's part of the chapter during August, and I can also share with you the results of all the work that we've been doing during these past weeks.

I'll finish writing everything this week and keep working on finalizing the art, then all that's left would be to playtest and iron out all the bugs. Hopefully you can enjoy all the new scenes and story developments, and Lena's part should be coming shortly after.

Thanks again for your support and I hope you'll enjoy what's coming

-----

Dissatisfied with the speed of game development, they got what they wanted. Part 10 will be split in half and we'll get Ian's story soon. As a person who is more interested in Lena's story, I don't like it. And this story is good as a whole, which tells the plot of both characters. The end of Episode 9 is Lena's Rubicon, which decides her future life. But I'll leave it to the conscience of the impatient. I hope this doesn't happen in the next episodes.

 

[BlandChili]

Some of you suggested in the past that I could release the chapters in two separate blocks, since Ian and Lena have parallel story lines. It's not the way I envisioned it, but you guys deserve some content and I've decided that's the way I'll do it for Chapter 10. This way you'll be able to play Ian's part of the chapter during August, and I can also share with you the results of all the work that we've been doing during these past weeks.

Oh this is different, I guess I can see where she is coming from.

Personally I am mainly interested in Lena, so getting Ian's bits doesn't really satisfy me all that much.

 

[Geralt From Rivia]

Her patrons don't support the idea of splitting the episode either. People want to see the full story and adequate subscribers are willing to wait for the full release. But Eva go to led by the loudly screaming and crying snowflakes, which cannot be patient.
She listens to "screamers" too much

 

[DatBoit]

I can only imagine that Eva would make this decision because Lena's part is nowhere near being completed, meaning that she would have nothing to deliver for several months if she didn't split the chapter. Otherwise, this doesn't really make any sense to me.

Honestly, at this point I think it's safe to say that it was a colossal mistake to have to main characters. It is clear that it is just causing massive development struggles, with no significant benefit to show for it.

 

[bauman]

I can only imagine that Eva would make this decision because Lena's part is nowhere near being completed, meaning that she would have nothing to deliver for several months if she didn't split the chapter. Otherwise, this doesn't really make any sense to me.

Honestly, at this point I think it's safe to say that it was a colossal mistake to have to main characters. It is clear that it is just causing massive development struggles, with no significant benefit to show for it.

Bingo. If Lena's part takes as much time as Ian's, it would be roughly 12 months without any story progression by the time 1.0 releases since 0.9 Final got released in November 2021.