VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ename144]

Personally I don't get the hate Killian is getting (so this post isn't directed at you only, that Killian shouldn't have Mina is a common opinion). In my eyes he's a better person than MC, who is a sadist and an even bigger degenerate than Killian. He's also a much worse friend to Killian than vice-versa, e.g. the only reason he stayed in touch with his best friend was thanks to Killian's efforts, he was the one who was calling, MC was focused on his studies and part-time job as a tutor while ignoring his friend. MC has also no problems with seducing his best friend's girlfriend (well, depending on our choices but once we do it he doesn't seem to have much remorse) and doesn't seem to appreciate enough how much help he got from Kill.

That's why I would prefer if Mina would still choose Killian over MC after their fling which would make Killian realize what he could have lost if he wouldn't change and wouldn't stop chasing after different skirts. BTW, it's funny how Killian is hated for ignoring Mina (which isn't true) and going after different girls while at the same time our MC is having sex left and right and is at least as horny as Kill. Anyway, I haven't seen Killian acting like a jerk yet but I've seen MC do it (e.g. peeing on Veronica or acting like a sadist or ignoring his friend and being an ungrateful asshole).

In certain scenarios MC can be a true altruist and a great guy but in the "let's see as many erotic scenes as we can" playthrough, he's not and he's definitely worse for Mina than Killian. Well, whatever devs will decide I'll probably like it (because MC having Mina's pussy is great in itself) but I'm just of the opinion that Killian is undeservedly bashed (at least when you take into account the alternative, i.e. MC).

/unpopular opinion

It's a valid point and I'm generally in favor of trying to make Killian a better person rather than writing him off. But I think there are a few specific reasons why Ian gets such flack.

First, the MC is the player's avatar. That means he benefits from all of our human hypocrisy, and we're also automatically inside his head. We not only see how he treats girls around him, we know why he's treating them that way - in fact, we're the ones who made that decision much of the time. That gives the MC's transgressions a lot more nuance and support than Killian has generally had. (It also means that people inclined to be judgmental of Ian are probably also more inclined to make the MC behave better.)

Second, Killian has a formal relationship with Mina that the MC doesn't have with any of the girls (so far). Sure, Veronica is (rightly) angry if the MC pees on her, but in general she still sees him as another pervert who works at the club; his actions don't amount to a personal betrayal. Ian, on the other hand, still comports himself as Mina's boyfriend even though she's made it clear that his blatant womanizing bothers her. I think that makes his actions more problematic than the MC's... with the obvious exception of making the moves on Mina herself. That is clearly a similar betrayal of Ian's trust, but we haven't quite got to the tipping point on her path yet.

Finally, while the MC is clearly capable of great dickery and definitely has a dark side, he is also far more aware of how those tendencies can affect other people. No doubt due to Victoria's influence, the MC has a high level of empathy that does tend to temper his worst impulses (at least until Kat starts working her dark magic on him). Ian's empathy usually extends only to the MC and Victoria; even when other people call him on the consequences of his actions, he tends to brush off the criticism. Eventually, I suspect that last point will be a point in Killian's favor, since if the MC persists in behaving badly he will seem far more deliberate in his cruelty. But for now it makes the MC seem like someone struggling with his conscience while Ian comes across as an entitled child acting out, which is rarely a good look.

not sure about that, Ian did bang Alice and Alice raised him

Alice may have raising him, but that doesn't mean he automatically idolizes her: Grace played a part in raising Ian too, after all. For whatever reason, Victoria seems to have become the focus for all of Ian's nobler impulses. Maybe it's as simple as the combination of her being a surrogate mother and her connection to Ian's BFF.

 

[Spfjolietjake]

Yeah it's obvious that Killian is supposed to be a integral part of the game I genuinely find it impossible to hate Killian he's like such a good cool character even better than mc in some regards people hating him are just idiots who can't see anything beyond Mina.

I think calling poster idiots for a pov you don't share is pretty heavy handed and not cool.

I don't hate him myself but I don't read these vns to have fantasy bromances. I play them for all the different women and the relationships.

In this vn's case it is the 3 contestants and the contest that I really enjoy. Also the complexity of the mom's past and how it effects the mc.

I don't think that makes me an idiot. You do you, but there is no reason for name calling

 

[sunaboz]

(...)
Second, Killian has a formal relationship with Mina that the MC doesn't have with any of the girls (so far). Sure, Veronica is (rightly) angry if the MC pees on her, but in general she still sees him as another pervert who works at the club; his actions don't amount to a personal betrayal. Ian, on the other hand, still comports himself as Mina's boyfriend even though she's made it clear that his blatant womanizing bothers her. (...)

Yeah, that is absolutely true and it's the main reason why I understand the hate he's getting. However one must take into account that Mina is still with him even though she must have been hit on by many men many times. I'm hoping it's because after all is said and done Killian truly loves her (and she loves him back) and shows it whenever they are alone.

Ian has shown that he cares about the people he loves more than anything. That goes for his mother, which is shown by the way he treats her, e.g. the hug, how he speaks to her or how he listens to her (at least in most things, e.g. he did bring MC along), although it's not surprising considering his mother loves him very much (that much is obvious and I doubt I need to explain why I think so), which BTW would be less likely to happen if he didn't reciprocate her love. Then again he did call her a bitch when they were returning so I might be wrong, although I hope not and it was just his man-child ego speaking. That also goes for Veronica and for MC/Edwin so why shouldn't it be the case with Mina?

As I've said in the beginning Mina is still with him for some reason but at the same time Ian is still with her. He could have any pussy he wants, he basically can have sex with exclusive courtesans every day and seeing how wealthy his parents and uncle are he certainly could have a much "better" girlfriend but for some reason he's still with Mina. To me it's a clear indication that after all is said and done he cares about her, despite the fact he sometimes doesn't show it. I also think that one of the reasons why Mina truly loves him is that she doesn't want Ian to meet his mother (at least not yet) who would want nothing more than for Ian to marry her had she known how wealthy he is. To me it suggests that Mina doesn't care whether Ian has money or not but loves him for who he is.

Last but not least, look at how Hana saw Killian and how her view changed slightly when they could meet in a very different circumstances. Yeah, it mainly referred to Mina (she didn't think Ian was capable of dating someone as innocent as Mina) but then again Carnation Club is a special environment where being a horny asshole is pretty much what is needed (but I haven't seen Ian peeing on someone or doing anything over the line, he just did his job adequately).

Then again Ian did say:
"I actually enjoy making her squirm a little when we go out. She tries that much harder in bed afterwards if you know what I'm saying".

and later:

"Girls come and go and they're never as nice as they seem. You don't get it because you don't come from a wealthy family like I do, but they all just want one of two things: access to the purse strings or the good time that can make happen". (possible typo here, shouldn't it be "that can make IT happen?)

but I'm of the opinion that he wasn't completely sincere then and he does love Mina.

TD1900
Am I making any sense or is that just me "headcanoning" and having a preferred "shipping" (i.e. Mina x Ian)?

Edit:

Kathleen will have you believe your primary role is keeping the girls in line ad working but your true job is always their well being. Look out for them man. This place ain't easy.

 

[1337Bob]

I said earlier that this game is really really good. But constructive criticism is the best form of feedback in my opinion.

The one major complaint I have with the game so far is I don't like how the Toughness system currently works. It conflates assertiveness with immorality. You currently have two paths, either a pushover, weak willed individual who has moral qualms about the club (Nice Guy), or you play as a hyperconfident asshole who seems to revel in the debauchery (Asshole). There's a middle ground (Mischievous) but it seems ill-defined, plus trying to balance Toughness in the middle can make MC seem bipolar or schizophrenic - showing concern in one decision but then being brutal in the next.

I wish there were separate "Confidence/Assertiveness" and "Depravity/Immorality" stats. This would allow for two more personality types in addition to the above:

The "White Knight", assertive, "moral" protector. You're in the Club for the "right" reasons. You want the money for med school, and you justify being at the Club because better you than some immoral bastard with no limits. You're willing to work hard and do what the Club needs, but you have moral limits you won't cross, and you're willing to assert yourself against Kathleen and the others when it counts, even if it means sticking your neck out. You're a gentleman and a romantic (though not chaste) and you like being dominant, at least as much as possible in the circumstances.

The "Sly Pervert" - You haven't had much luck with the ladies, and now the Club has presented itself for all your depraved needs. You don't like being direct and have never had much confidence, and instead much prefer to manipulate and blackmail to get what you want. You're happy to be a willing lackey for the Club in its worse form (at least for now), though you care more about appearances than anything else. Would kind of work with the Social Chameleon.

The trait system is kind of meant to represent this but I feel it's too sporadic and isn't well integrated into Edwin's character. Though obviously an addition such as this, this far along is unrealistic and would add to the workload, though I hope it can be improved in some form.

Also just my two cents on Killian given it's the current topic: I find it hard to like Killian because he seemingly doesn't have any redeeming qualities, while at least you can play Edwin to have some. Well, the only redeeming quality Killian sort of has, is that he's loyal to Edwin (and his mother) and is willing to help him out. Otherwise, he's pretty unlikable and irredeemable, he shows no moral qualms about the Club and revels in it, cheating on Mina, is a spoiled rich kid etc. Not that's a bad thing for the story, he fits right in. But I have no real motivation to try and improve my friendship with him, other than some kind of misguided loyalty to him. Killian needs that something more. Maybe the "convince Killian to go to college" subplot will address this, I'm looking forward to seeing it develop.

Other that that, I have no real complaints about the game. Story is intriguing and well-paced (a big problem for many other VNs), decision are meaningful and aren't enigmatic, characters are well written and there's loads of room for exploration and character growth, renders are great (whether you like Honey Select is a matter of personal taste).

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

You see killian and mina may love each other but at the end of the day the relationship isn't providing much mutual happiness to both parties involved as much as i like Killian i would prefer him to be with someone he could truly relate to that's why i think him ending up with mc mom would be good character development for him and mc mom

oh yeah a rich kid and a woman who had to do porn for the sake of growing her kid are so relatable to each other...totally 100% (i'm being sarcastic)

MAYBE MC's mother will be involved in the competition...but i think Ian and Mc would refuse to do anything with her...Ian out of respect and MC because no incest...if the mom ever gets involved in the competition directly...probably Ian and MC will do everything to sabotage the whole thing, i feel like that this possible situation may be the "breaking point" for both Ian and MC...like if Kathleen pulls this kind of stunt, she'll witness the destruction of the whole club.

 

[TD1900]

Am I making any sense or is that just me "headcanoning" and having a preferred "shipping" (i.e. Mina x Ian)?

I try not to share my personal interpretation of the characters, beyond the writing itself, as my personal view isn't the only valid way of looking at it and I don't want to unduly influence the discussion with something as worthless as authorial intent.

That said, your reasoning makes sense to me.

 

[redknight00]

Killian is not a bad guy, if anything he's often shown to be more caring than the MC most of the time, he just has a very small set of things he really cares about, and Mina is not in it. Just look at how he misses appointments with Mina because he's out late with other women, versus when he's up early cooking special friendship bacon for Edwin.

When shit does hit the fan, I think we would care more about being betrayed by the MC than about losing Mina.

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

In on of the scene ff Felicia lose the game than killian cums on her and clearly says that you maybe my friend outside but in here you are just another slut so i doubt Killian would skip the game to do mc mom if your ridiculous scenario did end up happening which i doubt it will.

my "ridiculous" scenario is an example...

meanwhile your fucked-up total nonsense scenario implies that Ian would fuck his bestfriend's mother regardless of the fact that he respects her a lot, and considers her more than his own mother...it would be more incest with MC's mother than with his own(on an emotional level at least)

 

[zizillo]

Mina and Hana....I love her so much...

 

[NateGrey]

Another argument pro-Ian: my MC was kind of a dick to him in the "Never have I ever" game, bringing up one of his dates with Mina that made Mina pissed at him. That did give him the chance to win the game, and instead of using that advantage to get back at the MC he used it to make him and Hana 'kiss' (OK, Hana and Mina as well, but I'm sure that was just a side benefit ). Sounds like a solid bro to me.

 

[TD1900]

Spoiler: Thoughtful thoughts!

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Thanks for the lengthy type up, it is well-received and appreciated!
Wanted to comment on this, so you didn't think it got washed away and looked over in a sea of Ian talk.

 

[Cozmos]

Keep up the good work you, Hana's story and scene really clicked and tbh the whole cast is good, story is neat with a good amount of ero scenes, more free roam is good but I don't mind the current way the game is going in, bless you and may fortune smile upon you all.

(if multiple endings gonna be thing do it, just by god don't make it an only bad ending / sad bit kind of deal if possible)
be well

 

[Cenc]

I have some serious doubts about Ian going with Edwin (Mc) 's Mum. The story shows he has too much respect, and If she were to take part in the carnation experiment - Well, I think Ian would legitimately have a big problem with this to the point that I think that would be the first(?) time he refuses to take part himself, even when ordered to by Kat.

I will also point out that Kat has been almost side-lining Ian's involvement in favour of the MC. "Gifts" aside Kat has been pushing the Mc to do more and more depraved and 'morally grey' acts to the carnations and others in the club. (which is another reason I told her to shove the gift where the sun don't shine - Pissing Kat off is something I take pleasure in )

As for Second-Best-Girl Mina, It's shown that Ian is her first real relationship, I think she probably believes she loves him, but is probably naïve enough to not recognise his (as in Ians) toxicity (for want of a better word). In other words, she doesn't know any better, so, in swoops our protag who shows her what she could have, well can you blame her for questioning her relationship with Ian?

additionally to this, the scene where you point out Ian's womanising and Mina's response to "go on, tell them" shows she is more aware of what he's up to. Which makes it all the easier for me, I mean our protag to slide in... as it were...

I told you the update was worth it ^^

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

I have some serious doubts about Ian going with Edwin (Mc) 's Mum. The story shows he has too much respect, and If she were to take part in the carnation experiment - Well, I think Ian would legitimately have a big problem with this to the point that I think that would be the first(?) time he refuses to take part himself, even when ordered to by Kat.

you had me there...nothing else to add, i agree with the whole post, but this is the best part of it.

 

[quorkboy]

one must take into account that Mina is still with him even though she must have been hit on by many men many times. I'm hoping it's because after all is said and done Killian truly loves her (and she loves him back) and shows it whenever they are alone.

Purely from the perspective of what Mina deserves: even if Killian loves her and she loves him and he treats her well when they're alone, she deserves someone who also treats her well in public and is faithful. He may mean it when he says he loves her, but he does not respect her.

It's easily believable that she wants him to treat her better and stays with him because she naively hopes he will change. But he shows no sign that he will. In my view he's not good enough for her. I don't necessarily see Killian as a bad guy overall, but he's a bad boyfriend.

That's not to say the MC is better for her. My MC is certainly not - he is being corrupted by the club. For that reason he's probably going to take her anyway. But even if you play the MC as the best possible version the game offers, if he takes Mina from Killian, that alone means he probably doesn't deserve her.

 

[SanaeS]

Purely from the perspective of what Mina deserves: even if Killian loves her and she loves him and he treats her well when they're alone, she deserves someone who also treats her well in public and is faithful. He may mean it when he says he loves her, but he does not respect her.

It's easily believable that she wants him to treat her better and stays with him because she naively hopes he will change. But he shows no sign that he will. In my view he's not good enough for her. I don't necessarily see Killian as a bad guy overall, but he's a bad boyfriend.

That's not to say the MC is better for her. My MC is certainly not - he is being corrupted by the club. For that reason he's probably going to take her anyway. But even if you play the MC as the best possible version the game offers, if he takes Mina from Killian, that alone means he probably doesn't deserve her.

I hope there will be something like a "Killian redemption path" where we can persuade him to be good boyfriend for Mina and leave the club for good(as his mother would want).

 

[Spfjolietjake]

I hope there will be something like a "Killian redemption path" where we can persuade him to be good boyfriend for Mina and leave the club for good(as his mother would want).

Eww I personally hate redemption archs. Besides I don't think he has done anything to the mc to deserve having to be redeemed

 

[SanaeS]

Eww I personally hate redemption archs. Besides I don't think he has done anything to the mc to deserve having to be redeemed

It's not about being forgiven by MC for something,but to at least not be such an asshole with literally everyone else(except MC mom) and stop acting like a spoiled brat

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

Eww I personally hate redemption archs. Besides I don't think he has done anything to the mc to deserve having to be redeemed

It's not about being forgiven by MC for something,but to at least not be such an asshole with literally everyone else(except MC mom) and stop acting like a spoiled brat

In general MC keeps Ian humble and decent, MC's seriousness calms down Ian's general attitude.

EDIT(bc i forgot to write it): Killian and MC's job is basically working for a sex-club...okay that Killian has the personality of a cheater...but i can sort of "condone" when it happens at the Club...it doesn't make it good, but it's either having sex or getting fired(and possibly piss off some rich guy who can turn your life in a nightmare)

 

[SanaeS]

In general MC keeps Ian humble and decent, MC's seriousness calms down Ian's general attitude.

EDIT(bc i forgot to write it): Killian and MC's job is basically working for a sex-club...okay that Killian has the personality of a cheater...but i can sort of "condone" when it happens at the Club...it doesn't make it good, but it's either having sex or getting fired(and possibly piss off some rich guy who can turn your life in a nightmare)

The thing is that Killian actually enjoys being in that position and doesn't give a fuck about mistreating and humiliating those women