VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Turret]

Looking further into it you dont need a license to have a shotgun in Maryland so the firearm stuff can be dropped. However how does August go about getting a license to serve alcohol?

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you need to include financials in order to get a liquor license so that means some business would have to be on record at that location (August would not put illegal sex club on the application). Even if they paid off whoever to get the license itself they would not have paid off ATF if they look into it. If you want to assume they did it legit and have some sort of "mens lounge" business as cover on the books then we get into August having to report how much money is being made or more accurately him having to lie to the IRS about his/the businesses taxes

Spoiler: and we all know....

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I think there are valid arguments for him either getting one or not but either way its a way for law enforcement to potentially get involved (even without Edwin)

I think the Club has a legit cover. It takes up much space in the building it is located in, is quite lavishly equipped, that is something you cannot hide too well. Not to speak of the consumption of electricity or water. Neither one of the leadership makes the impression of being dumb and covering the bases legally as far as you can, is simply good business practice.

That the books are cooked and likely being used for money laundering too, is on another piece of paper.

 

[selberdreher]

The FBI - Could say that the upscale highly illegal sex club is also engaged in human trafficking and with the introduction of August's associates they very well might be

The human trafficking part is outsourced to Augusts' business partners. And if they stay within the states borders, there is no human trafficking at all.

The ATF (Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) - They would just say there is a very likely illegal (and modified? IIRC) firearm on the premises and I really doubt they are fully licensed up for Hana to be serving drinks

I am not that familiar with the various gun laws in the US, but quoted from Wikipedia
"ATFs responsibilities include the investigation and prevention of federal offenses involving the unlawful use, manufacture, and possession of firearms and explosives (...) The ATF also regulates via licensing the sale, possession, and transportation of firearms, ammunition, and explosives in interstate commerce." Sounds to me as they need to violate federal laws to get the ATF involved.

As for Hana, again Wikipedia:
" Alcohol laws of Maryland vary considerably by county, due to the wide latitude of home rule granted to Maryland counties.
It is illegal under state law for a person under the age of 21 to possess or consume an alcoholic beverage, but the law contains several exceptions:

• Underage individuals who are employees of businesses that hold a valid state-issued liquor license may possess (but not consume) alcohol in the course of their job during regular business hours. Common examples are serving alcoholic drinks to customers of a restaurant, making deliveries for a catering company, and stocking shelves at a store that sells alcohol.

A person must be at least 21 years old to be employed to serve alcoholic beverages or sell alcoholic beverages, although some counties have different laws. A person must be at least 18 years old to work in another capacity at an establishment that serves alcohol."

Hana is 22 years old, and why the club should not hold a valid state-issued liquor license is beyond me, that would be dumb, afterall it's just a Gentleman's Lounge?

The DEA - All the person reporting would have to do is say they see cocaine/pill use/distribution

"The Drug Enforcement Administration tasked with combating drug trafficking and distribution within the U.S.
It is the lead agency for domestic enforcement of the Controlled Substances Act under which the manufacture, importation, possession, use, and distribution is regulated.
The DEA has sole responsibility for coordinating and pursuing U.S. drug investigations both domestically and abroad, sharing concurrent jurisdiction with the FBI, the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection.
(...)
The DEA is also criticized for focusing on the operations from which it can seize the most money. etc."
Also
"Trafficking Charges
Both federal and state laws come into play on drug trafficking cases. If a person is caught trafficking a controlled substance across state lines, federal law will apply, but if the drug trafficking is entirely within one state, that state's laws will apply."

While the DEA may be technically in charge, and therefore poses a real threat, those excerpts look like that they are usually interested in bigger operations, have bigger fish to fry, than to investigate rather small scale use, possession and distribution of drugs, especially -again- if no state border crossing is involved. Those are rather left to the local police.
How often busts the DEA a random dance club for party drugs, if they have no evidence of a larger scale operation there?

There is also the very illegal drug kathleen/the doctor/Sophie are making

But none of the employees knows of this, except Warren. As for the known use of the precursor: it's more likely an issue for the FDA than the DEA, since it has not found its way into the schedules of the CSA yet. A drug becomes illegal, if it's mentioned in the CSA, not before, and the base substance from which it derivated was legally researched by van Dorens company.

As far as evidence goes you are wrong that they (the person working there) needs extensive evidence all they would need is enough to get a single member of any of those agencies into the building the club is in.

So you assume the club has not a cam at the front door which opens only after the visitors are confirmed? Sorry, i live in inexpensive appartment house, and we have that security. Same for the elevator, which is likely locked until access is granted. There is no way just anybody can walk around freely in that building, else the clubs security isn't worth a penny.

Even if you want to assume they would not send a single agent to check out a potential lead all they would have to do is monitor the club over a weekend to see that congressmen, foreign diplomats, paramilitary leaders, world renown doctors, the chief of police, and large criminal cartel leaders are all hanging out in the same place....

If i were in charge of a federal operation including several agents and had to answer to my superior for the accumulated cost of a weekend long observation of a premise, including the underground garage, which is used by every guest who is not a pedestrian, based on what?
The accusation that this gentlemans club is in reality a brothel, where occasionally drugs are used? That there may be or not a modified gun? That there may work or not a prostitute from Virginia? By an alleged prostitute who is working there? So i can charge, if no drugs or other relevant evidence is found, a handfull of celebrities and politicians with prostitution, which is no federal crime?

That sounds like alot of headache and overtime for a very dubious outcome. If i was with the ATF this outlaw motorcycle club who is dealing in arms with the IRA in Charming, CA would be much more interesting. Same with every other federal agency.

I don't say it's not possible, but i would expect a former employee needs a bit more than that to get the federals interested.

 

[selberdreher]

I am not sure if the implication that August let Rosi´s blackmailers getting killed is correct. August definitely has contacts into the higher echolons of the criminal underbelly (Otto is one example). If one of those guys tells "just Oliver" and Co. to keep their hands of Rosi, that will be followed, if Oliver knews what is good for him. When this talk about Rosi between Edwin and August happened, I imagined a certain Nino Rota song playing in the background. August does not need to get the blackmailers killed. "Making them an offer they cannot refuse" should be enough. Unless Oliver and Co. are idiots, then they really would walk the plank.

Yes, killing her loan shark sounds a bit too much, threatening them should suffice.

Not so sure about the first paragraph of your post, though.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

But i agree, loosing a disgruntled Warren would pose a major security problem. So they need to make sure, that Warrens benefits outweighs his potential gains from leaving the club. I think that's part of the reason, why Warren enjoys so much freedom inside the club, and gets usually away with his behaviour. Also i am pretty sure they have a decent amount of dirt on him, and he knows that; the owners and Warren have each other at their throats and this 'mutual assured destruction' ensures his loyalty.

You are giving him way too much credit. I doubt warren can do anything to people like august or chuck. The reason he gets away with what he does is simply because they do not care if he abuses a house girl. Its not because he has any power over them. August would care only if it impacted the club's profits and I think Chuck is just indifferent.

Warren immediately backs off when Dalia threatened him by telling him she would inform August about his behavior affecting the club's profits. When we ask Chuck to give Emma the day off, his first question is why do we care about some whore meaning that he is indifferent to what happens to them.

 

[Turret]

Another possible complication for the business being "legit" is who all would be an employee? Just Hana? Hana and Jacob/Warren? Unless I missed that detail Edwin is not a member of this legit front facing business because he is not getting a paycheck?

Where I live prostitution is legal, so that would not be a problem naming the job, but even in the US that is not so difficult. A "Club" this large needs service personal, cleaners, handymans, security, dancers, massage specialists, cooks, whatever, even exotic jobs can be partly used as cover occupations. That would hardly be a big complication.

 

[Turret]

Prostitution is illegal in the US so they would have to cover it up. It seems like a stretch to assume that all the house girls (some of who are there working off debts) are working in an official capacity.

As I wrote, there are a lot of cover occupations to be filled. Heck, even a "lifeguard" for the pool could be "made", if needed. Who cares if they are working in the right field? Unless the Feds have really serious suspicions, nobody will take a closer look if it runs smooth. I am sure that the books of PC are fixed good enough to withstand one or two harder looks. That is not magic.

 

[selberdreher]

So what do you think is reported as far as taxes for the "gentlemans club"? Reporting them a requirement for the license in Maryland and even if you remove the betting which is money that moves through the club that doesn't technically stay there we know that Samson is not able to always afford it and has to be comped occasionally (Kathleens words).

Another possible complication for the business being "legit" is who all would be an employee? Just Hana? Hana and Jacob/Warren? Unless I missed that detail Edwin is not a member of this legit front facing business because he is not getting a paycheck?

I am not familiar with tax evasion, but it happens and people do get away with it.

Spoiler: A Study on the tax gap and why it's hard to close it

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This is especially true for businesses which handle large amounts of cash, they are notorious for being prone to misreport their taxable income. In my country for instance the tax office is aware of this problem, but the ratio of tax investigators to businesses shows, that a random business has to fear a tax audit of its books statistically every 20 years, and only if the investigator gets suspicious of the books a larger investigation is staged. So this risk is perhaps quite low in the U.S. also.

As for what is declared as taxable income, i think there are several legal options:

1. They can report the drinks as grossly overpriced. I saw a host club in Tokyo charging 1,000,000¥ for a bottle of champagne, that's currently more than 7000$. There were also cigars allegedly for 7500$ per box used in the first sauna scene.
2. The services of the girls can be masked as hosting, entertainment, dancing and performing and be charged at the high end of plausibility also.
3. They can report membership fees as income, and set again virtually any number as long it's somewhat plausible.

As for the employees:
August is the manager and can pay himself a manager's salary, Kathleen is HR director with an equally high salary, Warren chief of security with Jacob working under him, both paid; Hana is a paid bartender, why not? Ian could be hired as a freelance photographer for special events and Edwin is getting a paycheck:

Spoiler: Edwins drastically different standard of living

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The club doesn't run a completely watertight business, they are not commiting the perfect crime and when they draw attention from the feds for serious reasons they are very likely busted. But they are operating like probably ten- or hundred-thousands other shady businesses under the pretense of legality, and only a tiny fraction of them gets actually uncovered every year.

 

[selberdreher]

You are giving him way too much credit. I doubt warren can do anything to people like august or chuck.

He is definetly not as powerful as those two owners. But opposed to a disgruntled house girl, Warren really has the means to seriously damage the club and the owners, by providing heaps of actual evidence of criminal activity to law enforcement agencies.
If Warren chooses to, he can blow off the lid of this operation and get probably even away with a key witness programm for himself. He is in charge of the video feeds and his testimony provides intimate knowledge of the clubs' inner workings.

 

[Turret]

The club doesn't run a completely watertight business, they are not commiting the perfect crime and when they draw attention from the feds for serious reasons they are very likely busted. But they are operating like probably ten- or hundred-thousands other shady businesses under the pretense of legality, and only a tiny fraction of them gets actually uncovered every year.

I agree with you on this. But considering the good connections they have, I think the Club has a good chance to survive one or two hard looks by officialdom. But if they come fully into the crosshairs, then they will likely be busted.
Like I wrote above, as long as it runs smooth and the bureaucrarcy has no reason to become really suspicious, the Club is not in danger.
That legal situation is one reason I think Darius got through with his blackmail. They had not had this problem before, so it was easier to let him and his girl go, than risk scrutiny. And that such a situation does not repeat, Kath is working with Abel on their drug and willing to rock the boat in Pale Carnations with a planned revolution.

 

[selberdreher]

I would assume it would be a fairly large operation (just in terms of making it) becauuse it is a very specialized drug considering even if he wanted to make it legit it would be done at a cutting edge research hospital, but like I said they would only be tangentially interested in the club after all it would make them quite a bit of cash. As far as the employees knowing about I have to at least partially disagree. First you have debatable times like the fact that Kathleen uses a liquid aphrodisiac on Veronica and Lucy during their competition, However if you win one of Kathleen assignments the reward involves Edwin getting the drug (after Kathleen roughly explains it no less) while Lucy and Harper are both in the same room. Since Edwin often makes comments about how strong the aphrodisiac is on both himself and others I assume Lucy and Harper would also realize.

The use of certain versions of the drug/aphrodisiac/stimulans at the club is no secret, i stated that already in a former post. Whether the house girls assess this drug as illegal, or just a legal aphrodisiac and stimulans, is unimportant, because there is also open use of obviously illegal substances, probably cocaine and / or speed as shown here:

Spoiler: Tray with lines of white powder

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So Kathleen using just another substance isn't anymore suspicious. I was referring to the captive in the basement and the experiment done to her: that is not widely known throughout the club.

As for the chemical synthesis of Abels drug, that actually depends very much on the raw components one would have access to.
Creating for instance pharmaceutical grade Heroin (Diacetylmorphine) from scratch would be very, very challenging and would require a very well stacked laboratory both in materials and equipment plus a person who actually knows about chemistry.
But as soon someone has access to opium and acetic acid (which is not hard to get), even an amateur with no lab at all is able to produce low-grade, unclean Heroin. "Black tar heroin" for instance is the result of crude acetylation during clandestine production without further purification.

So if Abel is providing the legal precursor from his company, a decent stacked home lab and the expertise of Sophia and Abel should more than suffice to produce different versions of the stimulans. And don't forget we aren't talking about kilograms of the precursor, but rather tens or very low 100 of grams, since the effective doses of pharmaceuticals and drugs are usually in the scope of mg/kg body mass.
They don't need to run a Walter White like chemical plant for that. However if they decide at one point to start mass production, their facility would look very much like Walter's.

 

[Turret]

So if Abel is providing the legal precursor from his company, a decent stacked home lab and the expertise of Sophia and Abel should more than suffice to produce different versions of the stimulans. And don't forget we aren't talking about kilograms of the precursor, but rather tens or very low 100 of grams, since the effective doses of pharmaceuticals and drugs are usually in the scope of mg/kg body mass.
They don't need to run a Walter White like chemical plant for that. However if they decide at one point to start mass production, their facility would look very much like Walter's.

View attachment breaking-bad-10-memes-that-perfectly-sum-up-the-show-article-image10.webp

 

[selberdreher]

Where is it on the Camera feed? Where is the Camera on the entrance of the building? We see the camera feed several times and while we see the entrance (where people hang out) but I dont recall seeing one showing the view from in front of the club, nor do I recall seeing a camera in any of the shots showing the entrance however I have not looked for one.

We see only a tiny fraction of all camera feeds. The building has dozends of rooms and facilities, and all of them are allegedly supervised, sometimes with more than one cam. We see only a handful of those cam-feeds and not all of them.

We know for a fact that there is no buzzing in system (or that it can be turned off) because the first day Edwin goes there Jacob is in the front staircase and Warren is in the bar area meaning nobody is by the cameras in the security room and thus nobody to verify to buzz them in all the same arguments can be made for the elevator. This means either the buzzing in system was toggled off, that Warren saw Edwin and Ian get in the elevator buzzed them in then ran down to the bar area before it went up less than a dozen floors (I kind of hope this is the case lol), or that the building does not have a system in place and is in fact less secure than your apartment building

This handy little intercom is small enough to not be seen from our perspective of the entrance.
It provides two tablets to conveniently access the camera, confirm your visitor and open the doors from any place in the building, as long as they are in range.
No running down the stairs anymore to receive your guest breathless in your preferred representative room.

We live in the 21st century and security cams don't need to be those bulky monsters anymore, infact they can be ridiculously and frighteningly small. The reason we have still this chunky and sturdy CCTVs in public is, because they are meant to be seen to act as a deterrent for potential crime and to withstand vandalism from perpetrators and violence against them.

And last but not least Edwin is usually expected to arrive at the club at specific hours, and Ian is already waiting for him in front of the door for his first visit. It's reasonable that Ian announced Edwins arrival, so Warren unlocked the various doors.
Also, Warren just has to leave the security room and head to the bar which is no further than max two floors away, while Ian and Edwin have to ride the elevator up to the 10th floor, walk up two more floors to arrive at the vestibule with Jacob, have a quick chat with him and then head upstairs again to arrive at the bar. That should take considerably longer than what Warren has to walk to the bar.

To assume they have all this security inside, but lack any information from outside and are unable to defend their perimeter with the most basic measure (a locked front door) is plainly unbelievable.

 

[Zoltan Redbeard]

I believe honey select games cannot be on steam because of copyright issues. Its a shame because I personally would have preferred to get this (and a couple of other HS games I really like) on steam as well. Do consider supporting on patreon if you can - I think the game is worth supporting. The devs have a strong vision for the game and I feel like they put in a lot of work.

I don't know if it has any relevance to the matter, but

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itself is available on Steam, maybe (and just maybe, because I don't really know) there have also been updates regarding the terms of use for characters created and used in games published there.
It's just a mere speculation, but maybe it's worth inquiring a bit on it

Edit: Additionally, the Steam version is not published by

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, but by

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itself, so, also this post become somehow interesting: FAKKU Love & Hate - Still Pending Resolution

 

[okokok]

Do we know what scenes are planned as consequences for losing the last exhibition? Is it going to be various group combinations or just singles? Wondering what save states will be needed

 

[ReservoirCreature]

Has there been any discussion about the "Team Mutt and Jeff" screen at the start of the game? Warren looks like he is listed as a "suspect" but that could just be that he has the most intimidating mug shot in the game

I've had some questions about that screen as well. I don't think we actually know any of the girls in these pictures. At first glance they look like they could be Dalia, Mercedes, and possibly Emma. But the eye color is wrong for Dalia and Mercedes, and Emma has brown hair, not blonde. Mercedes' hair is also a lot darker but it could just be different lighting.

So, who are these girls? Are they actually part of the story or are they just here for the loading screen?

 

[Turret]

Please point out where you think the camera would be? Or is this a case of a limitation of the games creation/engine?

I think the camera "problem" is simply one of the game engine. It is hardly believable a semi-legal (at best) business and one where high-raning criminals come in regularly and illegal medical experiments take place would not have great security measures. The leadership of PC is not dumb, far from it and has serious life experience, good and shady. It is actually mentioned in the game that a security system exists and is working.
That Kath and Abel´s little experiement can happen at all is that Kath has Warren on her side and both manipulate the security recordings. Remember Hana mentioning to Edwin and her friends (at their pool evening) that August controls the security recordings daily? And Kath later on convinces Warren to deliver August forged recordings?

Glad you posted as this was going to be something I was going to do when the new update dropped. Looking at them next to each other (and with out knowing about the development) maybe the screen was made before their characters were finalized? That or Warren is a serial killer and Dalia, Mercedes, and possibly Emma are about to be in danger

I say it depends on what road TD and Gil wanted to go with the story at this early stage of development. Maybe they aimed for a full crime story more in the beginning. Or it could be a hint how dangerous Warren really is and these 3 ladies were victims of him. Now he is working in a Club under the main command of a known sadist where several girls fitting his "type" are working too. Nothing to be afraid off, or?

 

[deadh30775n]

Any idea on when the next update is supposed to drop?

 

[selberdreher]

Have to disagree with this part here the only place a thing like that would work is on the door itself but that does not work due to it being glass, it is not on the walls next to the door either because we can see them completely, it cant be on the black thing with light fixtures because then it would only see the top of peoples heads lol.

okey, this is quite hard to tell in a foreign language.
Can you see the vertical brick "steps" and how the door is kind of recessed into the wall? The middle vertical line of this picture is fairly well represented by the 'ONE WAY' sign. So the door is off to the left in our perspective. Which results that we can see the "rise" of the "steps" on the left side (represented by the yellow scribbling), but we can't see the rise on the right side (the bright green line) due to our perspective. The intercom would be normally placed either behind the red arrowhead facing us, or at the place of the black line to which the arrow points. If the dimensions of the picture would be called x for left-right y for up-down and z for front-back, the panel of the intercom would be placed in a y-z plane.

Spoiler: my picture

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However the truth is probably, that this building isn't custom made, but a stock asset from a library in honey select, and whoever created it, gave not very much thought about realism. Just look at those "things" on top of the roof which are completely nonsensical, they aren't airconditioning vents nor watertanks, just some random cubes and compartments without real purpose.

Spoiler: HS Libraries in a Youtube Video and Nonsense Topview of the Club

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And while the blue glass building to the right looks like an actual office building, our club is more like an appartment block with its shitloads of balconies. No commercial building would waste money on such an amount of balconies, since they are unusable as a workplace. Which makes the missing nameplates, mailboxes and an intercom on the front door even more annoying, if this was meant to be a stock appartment building in the first place.
I think GIL3D has chosen this one, because there are practically no windows, aside from the glass doors leading to the balconies, which should be good for the desired privacy of the club.

 

[Turret]

Is that security system just the cameras we see or is something more mentioned? I am in the camp of game limitation as well for whats it worth, just showing that in game (on the first day) there is no camera visible despite the fact it "should" be.


My only issue with that is that Warren does not seem like the type to be a killer that can get away with it, and Kathleen doesnt seem like she would risk her club (her place to be much more freely sadistic) just to keep Warren happy. Maybe shes fine with him beating up Emma but killing (and thus removing profits/uses) two house girls and the head girl?

As for the security system, I have to look again during a replay where exactly, but I know that it was mentioned several times. And we agree on the graphics engine being the reason for not seeing the cameras which are there.

As for Warren, if our speculations are correct, we do not know who or where the investigation takes place. He could simply have moved several states away from where this happens. Even today that is enough to shake off most trailers. If Warren is guilty of this, I doubt the owners know anything about it and have no idea about the ticking bomb in their midth.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Don't think the game will turn into a "detective investigates murder" this late in development.