VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Tokenugget]

Cool game. Im not a fan of a lot of the scenes but there is something for everyone if you stick around. Felicia might be the hottest honey select 1 model of all time.

Not sure i'd call her "honey select"

That's a real women. In fact, i don't think any of those women are "honey select"

 

[redknight00]

Hanoir

Spoiler

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[selberdreher]

Anybody have an idea of what Felicia's secondary stat "self-confidence" will lead to?

(...) However, as a player who finds no appeal in femdom or being Sugarmoma's toyboy, not sure if I should keep Felicia's stat suppressed or not. (If it'll make her bolder in the competition, lead to break-up with her husband/become a painter outcome etc. then that's a different story.)

Short answer: we dont know yet.

Long answer:
There was a discussion about Felicia having self-esteem issues, in the sense of "All i am good for, is using my beauty to achieve something", totally negating herself of her other qualities, like her obvious intelligence or her keen social skills.
So we expected if you keep her self-confidence stat low she will continue to utilize her gold-diggerish and slutty persona, whereas if you bolster her self-confidence stat she will evolve in to someone more akin to her "genuine" nature.

I believe most of your mentioned outcomes (toyboy, being bolder, divorce and artist) are possible, so there may be a certain risk behind going down that road; however Feli seems to be Sub-oriented, so unless she likes to switch, Femdom may be a bit more unlikely.
Anyway i do also believe, that we are able to influence the direction of her evolvement to a certain degree, so perhaps you will get what you asked for and finding yourself in a femdom scenario would be the consequence of your choices.

Feel free to correct me, if i recapped it wrong, since it has been a while. Cheers!

 

[selberdreher]

For the other competitors, their secondary stats' seems clear cut, who wouldn't want more horniness, for example.

I would partially disagree with you on this one.
Veronicas Horniness and Rosies Libido seem to be along the lines of a more "corruptive" Stat. Getting Sex Scenes with them is sometimes gated through either one of those or the Affection Score, and gaining Horniness and Libido is often associated with "lewder" choices.
In my canon run for instance i "need" to up those scores since my affection with Vero and Rosie is so low, else i wouldnt get the sex scenes i want with them. Doesnt bother me at all, because i like them both to be sluttier.

However for someone who is more interested in a "pure" or lets say emotional invested relationship approach with them, those Scores may be less important or even contraproductive. They would probably go for Affection and keep those numbers low.

Felis self-confidence seems to work in the inverse way, because one could argue she is already sexually corrupted to the core.

 

[Darg]

However for someone who is more interested in a "pure" or lets say emotional invested relationship approach with them, those Scores may be less important or even contraproductive. They would probably go for Affection and keep those numbers low.

I would disagree. In my opinion this stats determines how much they willing to do lewd things for the win. You can't really "corrupt" two grown women in less then a month by our choises (for bad ending or whatever), ofcourse if you assume that this game takes more realistic aproach then all this fem protag games.

 

[ename144]

I would partially disagree with you on this one.
Veronicas Horniness and Rosies Libido seem to be along the lines of a more "corruptive" Stat. Getting Sex Scenes with them is sometimes gated through either one of those or the Affection Score, and gaining Horniness and Libido is often associated with "lewder" choices.
In my canon run for instance i "need" to up those scores since my affection with Vero and Rosie is so low, else i wouldnt get the sex scenes i want with them. Doesnt bother me at all, because i like them both to be sluttier.

However for someone who is more interested in a "pure" or lets say emotional invested relationship approach with them, those Scores may be less important or even contraproductive. They would probably go for Affection and keep those numbers low.

Felis self-confidence seems to work in the inverse way, because one could argue she is already sexually corrupted to the core.

I don't think corruption is quite the right lens to look through, at least not for Felicia. She just happens to like kinky sex, and the Club is a way to scratch that itch in a potentially beneficial way. To me the difference self-confidence makes is just how much she relies on the club for benefits. If you crank her confidence up, she'll be more willing to believe she can build a powerbase on her own, and thus be more demanding when dealing with the Club (possibly even looking outside the Club altogether). If you don't reinforce her, Felicia will be less willing to rock the boat and thus will settle for whatever the Club feels like offering.

That can certainly have the effect of tossing Felicia into the deep end of the corruption pool, but it's more a question of desperation IMHO. She'll still be down for some serious debauchery either way.

 

[dolfe67]

however Feli seems to be Sub-oriented, so unless she likes to switch, Femdom may be a bit more unlikely.

If we have to put a label, Felicia would be a power sub. She initiates the sex but acts like a sub during

 

[selberdreher]

We can view women through different lenses, often simplyfing aspects of them by applying certain roles or archetypes. One example would be the Maiden, Mother and Crone, representing the roles we ascribe to women in the circle of life.

Another one would be the oversimplyfing trope of Saint versus Whore, which is in my opinion utilized in those "corruption" games.
Oversimplyfing because women are very rarely Saints or Whores and often something between: a then cheating wife may be faithfull to her new husband, staying vanilla in her sex life doesnt make one a saint and of course loving more kinkier options doesnt lead one to being a whore. These are just Labels used to express certain concepts which are more often than not inaccurate.

That said "Corruption" has a clear cut negative connotation, but depending on your view, we can see this process as sexual liberation and self-actualisation of a woman. In either way this process is heavily moralized and our inclination to disapprove - in the sense of "She shouldnt do that, but its hot" - is part of the kink.

If we accept the Saint versus Whore Dichotomy for the sake of the argument Felicia would be deep on the whore side, i think in more than one occasion Feli was called Slut and Whore in this thread with clear contempt. I want to add that Feli is one of my favourites and i dont see her with this contempt.

Being aware that we can not one-to-one compare Horniness and Libido to the usual Corruption we find in other games, i wrote "(...) seem to be along the lines of a more "corruptive" Stat" and tried to phrase it not as-a-matter-of-factly. In a broader sense Corruption is the degradation of Morals, as in what one person believes is right and wrong, and in the context of this Forum especially of sexual Morals.
So if Libido and Horniness leads to the acceptance of sexual acts formerly regarded as a no-go for Vero and Rosie, i think i am on the right track.

In my opinion this stats determines how much they willing to do lewd things for the win.

seems inadvertently to rather reinforce my view than to disprove it.

Also my statement about Felicia being "corrupted to the core" is not necessarily my opinion as expressed in "one could argue". It should be read in the context of the post directly above. So far Felicia relied mainly on her good looks and sexual prowess to the point where she is convinced that being a glorified sex-doll is all that she has to offer. And while it is certainly true that her high sex drive helps her in accepting this role, a high self-confidence stat may open her eyes to other instruments at her disposal, to other solutions than just to default to sex to overcome an obstacle or to reach her goals. In this sense i called it "inverse" to the other two Stats Horniness and Libido.

I dont know if this post sounds overly defensive or even slightly aggressive, because we germans often are considered too blunt. If so, please be assured that i hold your opinions in high respect, and just wanted to clarify my positions when i have the feeling my argument didnt come across as intended, due the limitations of writing in a foreign language. Also i love these debates in this thread, as they are often intellectual enriching (quite unexpected in a porn forum, but it is true) and offer perspectives i havent seen before. And they are a nice way to use my English.

Last but not least

If we have to put a label, Felicia would be a power sub. She initiates the sex but acts like a sub

I wasnt aware of that specific label, but i am ignorant and often being scolded when i just label a certain music as "Metal" when in reality it is of course "Power Metal" or "Death Metal". But thank you, knowing the exact term definetly helps to make concise statements.

 

[GhostMGN]

Hell is paved with good intentions.
Self-confidence can be a parameter leading to a bad ending. MC encouraging Felicia can make her take too many risks and pay for it.

 

[Turret]

Since currently it is the main topic of discussion, a few thoughts of mine about the secondary stats:
They are part of our heroines, but I do not think that TD and GIL made them 100% equal what they represent, but fitting to the character in question. Their score will have some impact on what will happen in game and the ending we´ll get.

That said, what we players do with those stats, says something about us as well. Libido/Lust for Veronica and Rosi can be used positively and negatively. Positively it can be a score for showing "der Zweck heiligt die Mittel"(the reason sanctions the means), that both are willing to do what has to be done to win(and maybe even liking it). Negatively it can be some corrutpion of them, so after the competition they are more inclined to moonlight at PC for a longer time and liking it. We can see some hints on that for instance with Rosi. If she has some libido points, her reaction to the threesome with Edwin and Ian for getting rid of the loan sharks is far more excited han with few.
Naturally there is a sliding scale of how far we want this to go as the MC. On one hand, it opens both Carnations up and even makes them more outgoing, but it can corrupt them towards working for PC longer. So it is our view as players what will be the right zone for our playstyle.

In Felis case this is less clear cut. I agree with @selberdreher´s opinion

So far Felicia relied mainly on her good looks and sexual prowess to the point where she is convinced that being a glorified sex-doll is all that she has to offer. And while it is certainly true that her high sex drive helps her in accepting this role, a high self-confidence stat may open her eyes to other instruments at her disposal, to other solutions than just to default to sex to overcome an obstacle or to reach her goals.

We can see this during the discussion in the car about going to an event together. Edwin doing it for free raises Feli´s confidence and her reactions show that she is pleased and positively surprised. Her biggest weakness is her lacking confidence when it comes to personal goals. Raising that score will help Feli reaching her goals of influence and rebuilding her school. I am sure a Feli with some confidence points at the end will be far more successful than one with a low confidence score.
Raising it "too high" could be a danger too, in that a very successful Feli pulls out of the competition or becomes too much like the current owners, very jaded to the world.

Hana´s Anger score is the only one I would call somewhat inverted. As we learned about her, Hana has clear views on many things and the Club in special. Raising her Anger might make her act against the Club (which could be a positive in many players view) and killing our relationship with her too, since rasing her anger means antagonising her, maybe going towards rebellion for rebellion´s sake.
Keeping Han´s anger low keeps her rational and might lead to her making reforms at PC once in charge.

 

[ename144]

Hana´s Anger score is the only one I would call somewhat inverted. As we learned about her, Hana has clear views on many things and the Club in special. Raising her Anger might make her act against the Club (which could be a positive in many players view) and killing our relationship with her too, since rasing her anger means antagonising her, maybe going towards rebellion for rebellion´s sake.
Keeping Han´s anger low keeps her rational and might lead to her making reforms at PC once in charge.

I somewhat disagree with this. I agree keeping her Anger low will probably maximize the chance she'll make reforms in the Club, but I don't think that will correspond to what we'd normally see as 'corruption.' I think her changes (if she can pull them off) would make the Club a bit less exploitative, giving the girls at least a little more say in what can be done to them as part of their normal jobs. As Hana has said, her objection isn't with the concept of adults exchanging sex for money, it's with the way the Club controls the terms of that exchange.

I think the way Hana will lash out with high Anger won't be against the Club itself but more against the circumstances that require her to participate in the Club. In the short term, Kathleen will probably try to direct Hana's rage towards August (to undermine his position). In the long run, however, I could see Hana taking her anger on the girls themselves, blaming their situations on their own stupidity as a way to avoid coming to terms with her own role in the matter.

That's just my guess though. Hopefully we'll know more soon.

 

[name]

replaying and getting to the birthday party Hana mentions its been a year since she had last had sex. wonder what happened there? she doesnt seem like one for one night stands so maybe a bad relationship? its probably a throw away line that doesnt matter, i just find it interesting, i wonder what kind of guy Hana goes for that isnt MC flavored

 

[sunaboz]

One thing that amazes me about Pale Carnations is that there's no bloat here, no scene inflation just to say that the update has so many renders. In this case every image and every scene is meaningful and superbly done. Recently I've played my 2nd favourite erotic game (after Pale Carnations of course) - Defending Lydia Collier and it has over 5300 renders. But the truth is, even though I've enjoyed it immensely much of it were some filler scenes, empty landscapes or repetitions of the same scene but with different characters (there is still an impressive number of great renders there though).

In the newest PC update there are 92 animations and 2723 statics (so roughly half of what's in DLC) and yet PC update felt much longer, I've been on the edge of my seat the whole time and at no point have I felt that my time was wasted (well, there is one utterly disgusting scene TBH but it sets the mood and helps to establish how fucked up porn/sex club industry is so in a way it's great). We basically get the cream of the crop, each scene being exquisite, connecting perfectly with the next, establishing characters better and better, letting us see their good and bad sides.

In other words, GIL and TD are doing an amazing job and never disappoint (in fact, they exceed expectations in each update).

 

[Turret]

One thing that amazes me about Pale Carnations is that there's no bloat here, no scene inflation just to say that the update has so many renders. In this case every image and every scene is meaningful and superbly done. Recently I've played my 2nd favourite erotic game (after Pale Carnations of course) - Defending Lydia Collier and it has over 5300 renders. But the truth is, even though I've enjoyed it immensely much of it were some filler scenes, empty landscapes or repetitions of the same scene but with different characters (there is still an impressive number of great renders there though).

In the newest PC update there are 92 animations and 2723 statics (so roughly half of what's in DLC) and yet PC update felt much longer, I've been on the edge of my seat the whole time and at no point have I felt that my time was wasted (well, there is one utterly disgusting scene TBH but it sets the mood and helps to establish how fucked up porn/sex club industry is so in a way it's great). We basically get the cream of the crop, each scene being exquisite, connecting perfectly with the next, establishing characters better and better, letting us see their good and bad sides.

In other words, GIL and TD are doing an amazing job and never disappoint (in fact, they exceed expectations in each update).

Good to know your opinion! Since you are obviously a Beta-tester, can you tell us a bit more about the disgusting scene? Not because of thrills, but because I want to know when to hit the "Steuerung" key to get this scene done and over as quickly as possible when the public version comes out.

 

[ename144]

One thing that amazes me about Pale Carnations is that there's no bloat here, no scene inflation just to say that the update has so many renders. In this case every image and every scene is meaningful and superbly done. Recently I've played my 2nd favourite erotic game (after Pale Carnations of course) - Defending Lydia Collier and it has over 5300 renders. But the truth is, even though I've enjoyed it immensely much of it were some filler scenes, empty landscapes or repetitions of the same scene but with different characters (there is still an impressive number of great renders there though).

In the newest PC update there are 92 animations and 2723 statics (so roughly half of what's in DLC) and yet PC update felt much longer, I've been on the edge of my seat the whole time and at no point have I felt that my time was wasted (well, there is one utterly disgusting scene TBH but it sets the mood and helps to establish how fucked up porn/sex club industry is so in a way it's great). We basically get the cream of the crop, each scene being exquisite, connecting perfectly with the next, establishing characters better and better, letting us see their good and bad sides.

In other words, GIL and TD are doing an amazing job and never disappoint (in fact, they exceed expectations in each update).

I don't know if I'd count variations of a scene with different characters as bloat; it's an important investment in the choices the game allows us to make. One might as well say the images of the MC hanging out with Mina if he doesn't make a move on her is bloat. Most people won't see that content, right?

Spoiler: Well Worth Seeing!

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I will agree that Pale Carnations doesn't feel padded the way some game have, but I think that comes down to narrative momentum more than it does render counts. PC has had a very clear focus on the Summer Exhibition and every update has developed that in some way; even Chapter 3 Update 1 provides in important lull in the aftermath of the first week's competition.

The events we see either relate directly to the Exhibition or show us how the experience is affecting the various characters. We haven't taken time out to start an unrelated subplot, and we haven't had to stall developments in the main plot to keep it simmering longer. Mina's plot is the closest to that, but she's sufficiently tied to both Killian and the MC that retains some thematic links (it helps that Mina is highly likable, too, of course).

As a random aside, the topic of comparisons between various games came up in the Being a DIK thread a little while ago. I was too lazy to put together a proper apples-to-apples comparison, but I did take a look at raw art output per development day. If anyone is interested in a totally unfair, random comparison of games I follow (and have readily available art counts), here are the results:

Spoiler: Highly Unequal Render Rate Comparison of Selected Games

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As the spoiler suggests, this isn't really a fair comparison so take it for what it's worth. But PC does have a relatively high efficiency when it comes to creating art assets.

 

[CAznable]

Good to know your opinion! Since you are obviously a Beta-tester, can you tell us a bit more about the disgusting scene? Not because of thrills, but because I want to know when to hit the "Steuerung" key to get this scene done and over as quickly as possible when the public version comes out.

I think I know the part that Sunaboz is referring to, and in that case it’s not nearly long enough to worry about, it’s one short part of a scene, maybe 5 images total? If you’ve gotten through PC up until now, I think you’ll do fine. Not to say it isn’t disgusting. It’s also not possible to insinuate what happens without out right spoiling it. Sorry to not answer your question but I hope you’ll understand.

I finished a play-through of the latest update as well last night, and I have to say, the game just keeps getting better with each update. Don’t wanna spoil a thing, but I’m sure everyone will find the newest update…. Interesting. Hope you all enjoy! A huge thank you to my fellow proofreaders/testers for their great work, and of course, the wonderful TD and Gil who have continued to be amazing creators (and people) in a community that needs more like them.

 

[Turret]

I think I know the part that Sunaboz is referring to, and in that case it’s not nearly long enough to worry about, it’s one short part of a scene, maybe 5 images total? If you’ve gotten through PC up until now, I think you’ll do fine. Not to say it isn’t disgusting. It’s also not possible to insinuate what happens without out right spoiling it. Sorry to not answer your question but I hope you’ll understand.

I finished a play-through of the latest update as well last night, and I have to say, the game just keeps getting better with each update. Don’t wanna spoil a thing, but I’m sure everyone will find the newest update…. Interesting. Hope you all enjoy! A huge thank you to my fellow proofreaders/testers for their great work, and of course, the wonderful TD and Gil.

Now I am looking forward to the update even more, damn you!
If the part which now several persons said is disgusting is so short, then it will not be a problem at all. I thought from Sunaboz´s post that it would be a longer scene. I have a high tolerance level, but not to all stuff, so we will see (but luckily not for long) what it is.
On the update in general, I think if reading your post correctly, that there are several story arcs going onward and partly into directions we have not seen before or had to specifically aim for. Thanks for answer to my question and Good Night!

 

[CAznable]

Now I am looking forward to the update even more, damn you!
If the part which now several persons said is disgusting is so short, then it will not be a problem at all. I thought from Sunaboz´s post that it would be a longer scene. I have a high tolerance level, but not to all stuff, so we will see (but luckily not for long) what it is.
On the update in general, I think if reading your post correctly, that there are several story arcs going onward and partly into directions we have not seen before or had to specifically aim for. Thanks for answer to my question and Good Night!

Again, I’m just assuming that’s what Sunaboz is talking about, but I think it is.

In regards to what I meant regarding the update itself, I just meant the things we learn are interesting to think about, and that the second Exhibition itself is quite visceral. Glad you’re excited!

 

[sunaboz]

Good to know your opinion! Since you are obviously a Beta-tester, can you tell us a bit more about the disgusting scene? Not because of thrills, but because I want to know when to hit the "Steuerung" key to get this scene done and over as quickly as possible when the public version comes out.

You will know it when you'll see it (or not, some of you might be into this) but as Caz said it's brief and available on one path only (AFAIK).

Protip: for this update it's good to have voyeur perk and to have saves where you tell Kat which photoshoot you've enjoyed the most (Rosalind/Veronica oriented saves could come in handy too).

Edit:
OK, there are 2 utterly disgusting scenes...

 

[selberdreher]

I somewhat disagree with this. I agree keeping her Anger low will probably maximize the chance she'll make reforms in the Club, but I don't think that will correspond to what we'd normally see as 'corruption.' I think her changes (if she can pull them off) would make the Club a bit less exploitative, giving the girls at least a little more say in what can be done to them as part of their normal jobs. As Hana has said, her objection isn't with the concept of adults exchanging sex for money, it's with the way the Club controls the terms of that exchange.

I think the way Hana will lash out with high Anger won't be against the Club itself but more against the circumstances that require her to participate in the Club. In the short term, Kathleen will probably try to direct Hana's rage towards August (to undermine his position). In the long run, however, I could see Hana taking her anger on the girls themselves, blaming their situations on their own stupidity as a way to avoid coming to terms with her own role in the matter.

That's just my guess though. Hopefully we'll know more soon.

I am not proficient with Hana and her Anger, because - aside from Harper - i guess Hana is the one Main Cast girl i had the fewest interactions with in my Playthrough.

Could you guys recall the scenes in which Hana raises respectively decreases her Anger Score?
If we analyze the situations which feed her Anger and what actions and answers soothe it, we will probably get a better feeling how her Anger structured.

I very vaguely remember one which is about money earned from this type of business? I had the feeling her Anger is targeted against her Old Man, so it would be a more intrafamilial issue?

Is it indeed targeted or a general dissatisfaction with the circumstances she is in? Is it because she feels powerless but yearns to change something? Is it about her mother which was in a way exploited by her BioFather? Is it her mothers illness? Or does everything just add to a boiling cauldron of poison inside her?

I can not answer this questions, because as i said: i dont know Hana very well.
Perhaps you guys know her better? What exactly triggers or calms her?

Lets explore the nature of her Anger!