VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[futureperfect]

Spoiler: My ideas

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: My Addition

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Hargan2]

Words

I did notice this as well. I played through the game for the first time a few weeks before this update came out and it did feel like my MC was trending more towards embracing the club. I took all the dominant/"tough" options and while he still expressed reservations, it did really feel like he was starting to sink into the lifestyle. Then in the latest update the tone did seem to shift back a bit towards purity and selflessness. Not my best wording. More "empathy and kindness". This would make more sense if there was a scene where Edwin really reflected on his thoughts and actions and recoiled back from the darkness, not accepting what he was becoming and temporarily trying to be better until he inevitably falls back into that selfish desire to indulge his every whim. But without such a scene or event, the tonal shift does feel a bit out of place.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Theory ahead, possibly a spoiler? Proceed at your own risk.


So I'm going to give my Theory about some of this. You see, even back in the 80s porn actresses ever never really payed that well and even today most don't make a ton of money especially if they are working with a studio.

It's one of the main reasons there is a war against only fans. The people with money aren't actually interested in sharing the weath. So how this relates to the Story is, as far as we know currently, MC'S mother was only ever in 1 porno video ever. Now we know that killian has only ever missed one of the carnation events.

I theorize that MC'S mother didn't make a porno. Especially with the way Chuck was talking to Kathleen. My thoughts are she found out about. The carnation events at some point through her connections to Chucks family through her son's friendship with Killian. What I believe happened is that after her husband's death she competed for the money to take care of her son and won. Killian respects her alot so either he refused to witness the events with Victoria or he was barred from Watching by Chuck.


This would explain why Cathleen is so obsessed with the MCs relationship with his mother and why she is so hell bent on pushing him to recreate those events with Rose, it also explains why Chuck decided to finally warn her not to go to far. I believe that her one porn video was a challenge simular to Rose's challenge, a way to embaress her in the future.

I'm willing to bet that Cathleen is also partly responsible for the MC finding out about the video to begin with. Simply put. She's a monster of a woman.

First, isn't there more than one flashback scene of Victoria? Maybe my memory is playing tricks (need to replay) but i think she did more than one hardcore sex video during her time as "pornstar" ( quotation marks because she was very likely being explored, like you mentioned about the sex work industry).

Second, Ian is the same age as Edwin (21 years old) and he only started working at the Carnation Club when he turned 18 and received a invitation from Chuck. This is only three years prior to the events of the game and we know from Edwin himself that his mother worked with porn when he was a child. So there is not enough time for Ian to have met Victoria when she was working with sex.

Third, while i do believe Victoria encountered Chuck when doing sex work i don't think her distaste for him would be so mild if she had participated in one of the carnation events. I bet he likely transited through the more darker and exploiter sides of the sex industry world before becoming one of the owners of the Carnation Club and that is how they both met.

Fourth, Katheleen is a sadist (maybe even a sociopath). The idea that the son of a lone mom who used to do porn videos to raise her kid is having to make a sex video with another woman who is also a lone mother in a similar situation is likely her idea of a Christmas present to herself.
Knowing her Chuck was likely making sure she keep her more devilish side in check.

Also didn't Kathleen pretty much implied the video wouldn't see daylight? Considering the secrecy around the club it would be pretty risky to let a video made inside of it to hit the internet.

 

[TD1900]

It seems to me that Pale Carnations is maybe heading towards a problem (would be interested to hear from TD1900 about this):

Depending on how you play, the MC was at least sometimes dominant/enjoyed-to-humiliate/sadist, while if you choose differently he was more of a friend/worshipper/simp/whiteknight.

Especially in the free-roam event of this update it felt like a contradiction to hear MC's inner monologue, where he seems to be clearly on the side of the prostitutes/girls, when the way you played, his inner monologue was very different/darker in some scenes (TD lets Dalia even mention this in the sauna scene).

Now TD1900 not being able to write 2 completely different game paths regarding MC's personality/inner monologue, and some cringing at the whiteknighting and others being disgusted by treating the girls badly, but both clearly being a possible personality in scenes/paths and seemingly will be in future updates - will you try to merge these two mindsets in the MC (or solve them since it's part of the story), or will he go in one of these directions over time? And if so would you be willing to say which one that would be?

I don't think Edwin being sympathetic toward the club's prostitutes is inconsistent with his characterization so far, but I wrote it, so I suppose I wouldn't. He has always been portrayed as having qualms with the exploitative nature of the club from a logical/mental standpoint, but on a sensual level he becomes a hypocrite. The social mores ingrained in him are at odds with what he innately finds gratifying. Walking around, he'll think what most people would think, but he'll find having a flogger in his hand stimulating. There's supposed to be some push and pull in that regard, with some overcompensating, but it might not come across like that. If it doesn't, then it's either a failure of my writing or a mismatch of the perspectives we're bringing to the table.

To answer your question though, Edwin can't straddle the line forever. Eventually he'll have his critical moment and he'll need to start progressing toward the game's two main end states: getting his mentality in order and staying at the club or wanting to leave and dealing with any complications related to that.

 

[camube]

I don't think Edwin being sympathetic toward the club's prostitutes is inconsistent with his characterization so far, but I wrote it, so I suppose I wouldn't. He has always been portrayed as having qualms with the exploitative nature of the club from a logical/mental standpoint, but on a sensual level he becomes a hypocrite. The social mores ingrained in him are at odds with what he innately finds gratifying. Walking around, he'll think what most people would think, but he'll find having a flogger in his hand stimulating. There's supposed to be some push and pull in that regard, with some overcompensating, but it might not come across like that. If it doesn't, then it's either a failure of my writing or a mismatch of the perspectives we're bringing to the table.

To answer your question though, Edwin can't straddle the line forever. Eventually he'll have his critical moment and he'll need to start progressing toward the game's two main end states: getting his mentality in order and staying at the club or wanting to leave and dealing with any complications related to that.

This game is taxing to read. Really big kudos to the devs for making the writing really engaging to read.

Really looking forward to the continuation.

How far are we from the ending by the way? Are we already at halfway point? Or is the game would still roughly take another 3 years to complete?

I need to mentally perepare myself to be patient if we aren't even 25% point yet.

 

[camube]

I did notice this as well. I played through the game for the first time a few weeks before this update came out and it did feel like my MC was trending more towards embracing the club. I took all the dominant/"tough" options and while he still expressed reservations, it did really feel like he was starting to sink into the lifestyle. Then in the latest update the tone did seem to shift back a bit towards purity and selflessness. Not my best wording. More "empathy and kindness". This would make more sense if there was a scene where Edwin really reflected on his thoughts and actions and recoiled back from the darkness, not accepting what he was becoming and temporarily trying to be better until he inevitably falls back into that selfish desire to indulge his every whim. But without such a scene or event, the tonal shift does feel a bit out of place.

What's the difference between High Toughness and Low Toughness MC? Is it different mostly internal monologues or does the dialogues MC is having with other characters changes too?

 

[Hargan2]

What's the difference between High Toughness and Low Toughness MC? Is it different mostly internal monologues or does the dialogues MC is having with other characters changes too?

I haven't actually done a low toughness run, but toughness does seem to act as a general indicator of your character's dominance, and having high toughness unlocks some unique dialogue/scene options for humiliating/degrading the girls as well as acting more dominant and such.

 

[TD1900]

How far are we from the ending by the way? Are we already at halfway point? Or is the game would still roughly take another 3 years to complete?

There's five chapters, plus some epilogues. Keep in mind, chapters aren't created equally. Chapter 1 and 2 combined took the less development time than chapter 3 did.

 

[camube]

I haven't actually done a low toughness run, but toughness does seem to act as a general indicator of your character's dominance, and having high toughness unlocks some unique dialogue/scene options for humiliating/degrading the girls as well as acting more dominant and such.

My first blind playthrough my MC have low toughness and i missed some mother's flashbacks actually. Like, I don't even progress Rose's path at all because I rejected her on the apartment (I realized we were warned by the game's text but I didn't actually realized at the time that it would cut Rose's path entirely).

I didn't do the last task on Week 2 either, I let Ian do it for example.
And then I carried Hana to the bed so I never got the dream scene.

My low toughness MC dialogues are actually "relatively" *healthy*, all things considered.

I don't remember the internal monologues of that Low Toughness playthrough all that much though, which is why I asked.

 

[Turret]

I haven't actually done a low toughness run, but toughness does seem to act as a general indicator of your character's dominance, and having high toughness unlocks some unique dialogue/scene options for humiliating/degrading the girls as well as acting more dominant and such.

I think some of the questions about inconsistencies in writing are because the players asking did mainly a high toughness playthrough. The toughness score is not only about Edwin´s general resilence, but it is also an "asshole score" indicator.
The low toughness (up to about 12 points IIRC) Edwin (esp.with helper as motivation) is a really nice guy and has the inner monologue and feelings fitting for it. The 12-18 points Edwin is still really nice, but has made some "hard" decisions.

At about 18 points Toughness TD once called the character "mischievious". He still is a nice guy, but can be harder if the situation "demands" it. This Edwin is still nice and looks out for his friends, etc., but can do some actions, if he wants or needs to, which are harder, rougher, more egoistic.
At about 30 points Edwin is on the way towards becoming like Chuck (to a lesser extend except playing towards that) or Kath (which in this case is likely Edwin´s mentor). He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones.

As some theory about some later events where toughness will play a role is if edwin stays at PC or wants out. The low T and the mischievious Edwin might stay in the Club with Hana, making some reforms. Both Edwin (and Hana) version might have some corruption (if played towards that) in how wild they are in bed and how much they enjoy partaking "owners options", but they will lead PC towards being not as big a den of exploitation as it is now. (Hana´s talk with Feli during the Saturday event is one hint, Feli is there without external pressure, that is something which Hana would want for all the girls in PC. Hana is not against sex work, but that PC exploits many who are desperate.)
The 30+ Edwin on the other hand will be quite happy with how PC currently is and gets off it being a den of vices and sadism.

 

[Hargan2]

I think some of the questions about inconsistencies in writing are because the players asking did mainly a high toughness playthrough. The toughness score is not only about Edwin´s general resilence, but it is also an "asshole score" indicator.
The low toughness (up to about 12 points IIRC) Edwin (esp.with helper as motivation) is a really nice guy and has the inner monologue and feelings fitting for it. The 12-18 points Edwin is still really nice, but has made some "hard" decisions.

At about 18 points Toughness TD once called the character "mischievious". He still is a nice guy, but can be harder if the situation "demands" it. This Edwin is still nice and looks out for his friends, etc., but can do some actions, if he wants or needs to, which are harder, rougher, more egoistic.
At about 30 points Edwin is on the way towards becoming like Chuck (to a lesser extend except playing towards that) or Kath (which in this case is likely Edwin´s mentor). He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones.

Thank you for this, that provides a little context. In that case, I have another critique. This is not adequately communicated to the player. I went a high toughness route because I want to be a dominant, sometimes possibly sadistic, Edwin, but I don't want for him to be an asshole for no real reason. It is concerning that having a high toughness may lock me out of being nice, as I've been playing my Edwin with the mindset of "He's self-serving and enjoys the power he can get and wants as much as he can take, but he's also not an idiot who will be a dick for no reason at all." I've never been mean to Killian, for example, because even though I don't like him very much it's clear that the guy idolizes Edwin and there's no sense in throwing away a useful ally.

I've always seen toughness as a combination of literally "how physically tough is Edwin" plus "how tough can he act when needed." If it's meant to be a score of how assholeish he is, then that's a problem because that's not the impression I got at all.

in regards to this specific point :"He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones." That makes little sense. A sociopath lacks empathy and conscience, but they're not psychopaths. They often know the value of at least pretending to have empathy for purposes of manipulation and not throwing away potential allies or pawns. Also fuck Kath. I don't trust her at all.

 

[camube]

I think some of the questions about inconsistencies in writing are because the players asking did mainly a high toughness playthrough. The toughness score is not only about Edwin´s general resilence, but it is also an "asshole score" indicator.
The low toughness (up to about 12 points IIRC) Edwin (esp.with helper as motivation) is a really nice guy and has the inner monologue and feelings fitting for it. The 12-18 points Edwin is still really nice, but has made some "hard" decisions.

At about 18 points Toughness TD once called the character "mischievious". He still is a nice guy, but can be harder if the situation "demands" it. This Edwin is still nice and looks out for his friends, etc., but can do some actions, if he wants or needs to, which are harder, rougher, more egoistic.
At about 30 points Edwin is on the way towards becoming like Chuck (to a lesser extend except playing towards that) or Kath (which in this case is likely Edwin´s mentor). He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones.

As some theory about some later events where toughness will play a role is if edwin stays at PC or wants out. The low T and the mischievious Edwin might stay in the Club with Hana, making some reforms. Both Edwin (and Hana) version might have some corruption (if played towards that) in how wild they are in bed and how much they enjoy partaking "owners options", but they will lead PC towards being not as big a den of exploitation as it is now. (Hana´s talk with Feli during the Saturday event is one hint, Feli is there without external pressure, that is something which Hana would want for all the girls in PC. Hana is not against sex work, but that PC exploits many who are desperate.)
The 30+ Edwin on the other hand will be quite happy with how PC currently is and gets off it being a den of vices and sadism.

Yeah my blind playthrough Low Toughness MC had Helper background. I don't think he's that "messed up" in his inner monologues, relatively speaking

Hence why I asked if I play High Toughness would the internal monologues be different.

Because if so, I might do a high toughness speedrun just to read the unread dialogues from the other side.

 

[Turret]

Thank you for this, that provides a little context. In that case, I have another critique. This is not adequately communicated to the player. I went a high toughness route because I want to be a dominant, sometimes possibly sadistic, Edwin, but I don't want for him to be an asshole for no real reason. It is concerning that having a high toughness may lock me out of being nice, as I've been playing my Edwin with the mindset of "He's self-serving and enjoys the power he can get and wants as much as he can take, but he's also not an idiot who will be a dick for no reason at all." I've never been mean to Killian, for example, because even though I don't like him very much it's clear that the guy idolizes Edwin and there's no sense in throwing away a useful ally.

I've always seen toughness as a combination of literally "how physically tough is Edwin" plus "how tough can he act when needed." If it's meant to be a score of how assholeish he is, then that's a problem because that's not the impression I got at all.

in regards to this specific point :"He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones." That makes little sense. A sociopath lacks empathy and conscience, but they're not psychopaths. They often know the value of at least pretending to have empathy for purposes of manipulation and not throwing away potential allies or pawns. Also fuck Kath. I don't trust her at all.

Thanks, glad I could help!
Toughness is a combination score. It is to a certain extend Edwin´s physical toughness, but it is also and a bit more a score how self-serving, callous and unfeeling Edwin becomes.(Think the fairy tale "Das kalte Herz", don´t know the english title, translated it is the cold heart or sayings like cold-hearted, stone-cold, etc)

The e.g. 11 points Edwin can still be physically a rock (e.g. with taking strong or tireless boons as indicator), but it is an Edwin who is a really nice guy, wants to help... he can make hard choices, but it is a battle for him. And some sadist choices he will not do (greyed out)
The 20 points Edwin is still a nice guy with his principles, but he is "pragmatic" and can be "impish". He can make hard rough choices, if he finds them really(!) necessary or wants to darkly prank someone. But he won´t do it all that often.
The 30+ Edwin is a powerhungry, self-serving ass, who rarely thinks about what others think or have to do.

That becomes clear over the run of the game. There are toughness choices which are just measurements of resilence, which have no major imprint on Edwin´s relations with others and how he sees himself. And there are a lot events where making the toughness or the tougher(!) choice will aslo impact your relations. You can see that quite fine in stat changes. For instance, not all, but the majority of tough and rough choices give you boni with Kath and/or Veronica in part. Veronica is not like Kath, but likes powerplay games in her relationships.

 

[TD1900]

Toughness has had so far has very impact on the story and alters only a marginal amount of lines, usually making the odd chunk of dialogue from Edwin more forceful / derogatory. It was always meant to flavor things a tad, just like the history choices for example, but it is admittedly pretty under utilized as of now. Mostly because I've found more context dependent dialogue more natural and useful in that regard - like choosing to talk dirty in a scene or getting angry at Felicia during the photoshoot.

It'll tie into how things unfold at a later point, but currently, I would say it as of yet doesn't meaningfully change Edwin's character.

 

[Hargan2]

Toughness has had so far has very impact on the story and alters only a marginal amount of lines, usually making the odd chunk of dialogue from Edwin more forceful / derogatory. It was always meant to flavor things a tad, just like the history choices for example, but it is admittedly pretty under utilized as of now. Mostly because I've found more context dependent dialogue more natural and useful in that regard - like choosing to talk dirty in a scene or getting angry at Felicia during the photoshoot.

It'll tie into how things unfold at a later point, but currently, I would say it as of yet doesn't meaningfully change Edwin's character.

Thank you for this. The information provided above was leading me to think that toughness played a bigger role in Edwin's character than the actual choices you make. It's definitely better in my opinion to use choices to portray your character's personality, as I'd very much like for my Edwin to be "kind" when it will provide the best results yet not be afraid to play the role of absolute asshole and indulge himself when he wants or needs to. Hopefully you continue in this vein, as the depth of choice and resulting character development is something I absolutely love in this game.

 

[Turret]

Thank you for this. The information provided above was leading me to think that toughness played a bigger role in Edwin's character than the actual choices you make. It's definitely better in my opinion to use choices to portray your character's personality, as I'd very much like for my Edwin to be "kind" when it will provide the best results yet not be afraid to play the role of absolute asshole and indulge himself when he wants or needs to. Hopefully you continue in this vein, as the depth of choice and resulting character development is something I absolutely love in this game.

As seen, TD1900 did explain a bit more. Sorry, if it came across as would toughness shape Edwin´s characters massively.
The score steps I told you are real (TD mentioned them quite a time ago already) and definitely an indicator into what directions Edwin tendencially develops. It is a measure which will become more impactful over time. And that is natural I think, for e.g. Edwin´s score to be high he has to have made quite a number of harsh choices. If you have a Kath score of over 20, then it is easy to say that your toughness is also high, because you make points with her with normally choosing the asshole and psycho choices.

 

[Hargan2]

If you have a Kath score of over 20, then it is easy to say that your toughness is also high, because you make points with her with normally choosing the asshole and psycho choices.

I have a toughness of 30 and a Kath affection score of 25, yeah. Trust is 8 though, and regardless of how much she likes me I will certainly never trust her. I'm angling to support August if it ever comes to a choice between the two.

 

[Turret]

I have a toughness of 30 and a Kath affection score of 25, yeah. Trust is 8 though, and regardless of how much she likes me I will certainly never trust her. I'm angling to support August if it ever comes to a choice between the two.

Your playthrough shows how different we players play the game and that our choices matter and shape Edwin. I have a low toughness run (currently 10 or 11 points) and I mistrusted Kath from early on, but decided to "keep my enemies closer". Last time I checked I have 10 trust points with Kath and she likes me with about 12 points. As said, this is the result of chosing a couple events to get some bolster, as I think Kath scores will fall later on. Because I most definitely will not help her powerplay.

 

[Hargan2]

Your playthrough shows how different we players play the game and that our choices matter and shape Edwin. I have a low toughness run (currently 10 or 11 points) and I mistrusted Kath from early on, but decided to "keep my enemies closer". Last time I checked I have 10 trust points with Kath and she likes me with about 12 points. As said, this is the result of chosing a couple events to get some bolster, as I think Kath scores will fall later on. Because I most definitely will not help her powerplay.

Ah, nice. I respect August's (seeming) honesty and straightforwardness, so unless he gives me reason to distrust him I like him a lot more than Kath, who very clearly has ulterior motives and comes off as someone who is hiding things and manipulating you. I could go the route of trying to make her trust me, but I like to be more straightforward and simple, so I instead make no attempt to hide the fact that I don't particularly like her but do like the perks of working for her. So she doesn't trust me, but she does apparently like me at least a little anyway.

 

[Hallowicked]

Just did my first Playthrough and iam still stunned about the Story,Choices and Animations of this Masterpiece.The Game seriously caught me off guard by reveal the Backstory of Veronica and the cruel intentions behind it.

Iam hooked and will definitely play again as a complete extreme Character.