VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[selberdreher]

It would be hilarious btw, if this game had similar effect with text signaling that you've made an impactful choice
I love all kind of references in such games, it shows experience of developer in different kind of games or movies.

Well, i think that's a fine line to tread. Adding Meta-Knowledge can backfire with those who aren't familiar with it and even can become invasive that way.
I really appreciated the few and far between references to movies TD1900 added, because if you don't get them you don't loose anything, but if you do, it usually adds more depth to the scene.
I am a bit aquainted with movies especially from the 80s and 90s, but i wouldn't call me cineast, and after looking up the "Life of Oharu" reference i was impressed how well it fitted the setting at that point.

So in my opinion if you rely on references or meta-knowledge to hit, you can actually miss. Dunno, if that's understandable...

 

[McGreed]

Well, i think that's a fine line to tread. Adding Meta-Knowledge can backfire with those who aren't familiar with it and even can become invasive that way.
I really appreciated the few and far between references to movies TD1900 added, because if you don't get them you don't loose anything, but if you do, it usually adds more depth to the scene.
I am a bit aquainted with movies especially from the 80s and 90s, but i wouldn't call me cineast, and after looking up the "Life of Oharu" reference i was impressed how well it fitted the setting at that point.

So in my opinion if you rely on references or meta-knowledge to hit, you can actually miss. Dunno, if that's understandable...

Yeah, I got your point. And I agree with you that it could work in both ways.

 

[Machete]

Talking about Mina or Hana...

Believe it of not, in my run i actively rejected Mina due to purely story reasons.

 

[DirtyMario]

Believe it of not, in my run i actively rejected Mina due to purely story reasons.

Due to bros before hoes?

 

[starkj]

Due to bros before hoes?

Not when Ian doesnt care about hurting Mina.

 

[Deleted member 3083868]

I refuse to believe Victoria and Killian don't have anything going on between them. There are scenes which can be interpereted as something between them. If Killian can go after the maid he's definitely going after Victoria. We need a path where if MC take Mina then Killian takes Victoria and it is revealed they have been together for quite a while.

 

[Machete]

Due to bros before hoes?

Nope. Because Mina broke up with Ian because he was a liar manwhore. So it makes not much sense for a white knighting MC to get with her when MC is also a liar manwhore.

 

[DirtyMario]

I refuse to believe Victoria and Killian don't have anything going on between them. There are scenes which can be interpereted as something between them. If Killian can go after the maid he's definitely going after Victoria. We need a path where if MC take Mina then Killian takes Victoria and it is revealed they have been together for quite a while.

No we don't need a path like that.

 

[Deleted member 3083868]

No we don't need a path like that.

Yes we do. We can avoid what we don't like nobody has to force themselves

 

[selberdreher]

Yes we do. We can avoid what we don't like nobody has to force themselves

You may change the future, but the past has been already written.

In one of the first scenes, when Edwin visits Victoria for dinner, she asks "Who else is going to take care of me when i'm old?" and asks Edwin further "Speaking of Ian... How is our little heartthrob?" ending with "Say hi to him from me the next time you see him, okay?". Victoria brings Ian up in this conversation without necessity, just to deceive her son? And doubles down on this deception by setting up a fake account on a dating website?

You have a very dark view on her, if you think she is that nasty to Edwin, again without necessity, because she could have just kept quiet about her alleged affair counterpart.
But let's be real, at that point, it's the 7th of May, she definetly doesn't have anything going on with Ian. So depending on your definition of quite a while, that's already out of the window. If they would have gotten together, it would be a fairly recent thing.

Another point you totally oversee with your 'wishful fantasy fulfilment' is the dynamic of Victoria and Killian. If they were to have an affair, relationship, tryst, call it like you want, she would be the dominant one, she certainly would not take any crap from him, because Ian is wax in her hands. I am not saying that they are an unthinkable couple, but this possibility lies in the future and is not already happening.

So it's not about "nobody has to force themselves" it's about how the story already has developed to the recent point in time.

 

[Turret]

Hi! since I have a bit time today, some thoughts on the topics discussed these last days.

Victoria and her porncareer: As TD already confirmed, Vicki has done several movies. I personally think she was longer in porn than some members here estimate. Victoria was completely on her own and having a kid, her husband dead. One or two porn shots certainly help, but don´t do all that much on the money front in such a case. (Not even Pierre Woodman, who is known for paying well above the norm, is paying that much) I think Victoria was in porn for a couple years. Not long enough to become widely known, but known enough that Edwin could find her movies later on. If she were a completely obscure porn actress, he would not have found multiple movies of her.
And I think there were movies where Victoria had fun making them, because the actors clicked or the theme was a turn-on for her. Not for nothing Edwin recalls a scene where Vicki had fun doing her movie during the pornshot with Rosi, to feel better about the situation both are in.

Victoria and August: I believe August was the director of a couple of Victoria´s porn movies, but not all. From what we learned during the game, August was a rather well known porn director, so there is no surprise that Vicki and him would have crossed paths sooner or later.
That might become an interesting thing if Hana and Edwin become a comitted couple, but not a dealbreaker. August today is quite philosophical about things he did and his problems with Hana´s mom stem from other sources. For Victoria this coming back of the past might be a surprise, but for her Edwin´s happiness is important and she really likes Hana. And who knows, August and Victoria might have been on real friendly terms back then. As said, August´s problems with Hana´s mom stem from other circumstances, less the porn.

Victoria and Chuck: I think iti is possible that Chuck connected Vicki with the porn business, but her being wary of Chuck could just have been a well-honed instinct and life experience. We have to remember what Victoria has gone through for Edwin. That should have given her a finetuned ability to tax people. So it can be as simple as Vicki´s "Spidey-sense" tingling when she met Edwin´s new teacher Chuck for the first time back in the day.

Victoria and Ian: I really doubt that Ian would do what some players think about him. Vicki is his Ersatz.Mom and more of a Mom for him than his own. And while there is some interplay between them, which they more or less acknowledge, that is all. Ian can be a sleazeball, but he is a loyal friend to those closest to him.

Ian and Mina: since Ian and Vicki are a theme, we have to speak about Mina a bit too. I am on the "Bring Ian and Mina back together" team, since Ian, for all his flaws, is a true friend to Edwin (and nobody has many of those in his/her life) and Mina has become a friend quickly too.
It becomes clear over the course of the game, that Ian loves Mina, but among other things his parents neglect of him and Chuck´s mentoring, he has near zero clues how to make a relationship work. Ironically, I doubt their situation would have come to this, had they talked more about Mina´s sexual "bucket/fantasy list". Ian likes wild sex, but due to his scrambled know-how of relationships tried to be fully nice and "vanilla" to Mina and still upholding his player image. How that worked out we have seen. Had Ian and Mina been more open about their sexual fantasies, they would still be a full couple.
There is quite a little deviant in Mina, going by her fantasies, matching Killian´s at least a bit.

 

[selberdreher]

Turret there are points i like and support in your post, there are others i see slightly different.

But sorry, i heavily dispute your last paragraph about Ian and Mina, and especially the opening line

It becomes clear over the course of the game, that Ian loves Mina

That, to say it friendly, is a bold statement, and i am more than interested in how you would back up this claim.

 

[Turret]

Turret there are points i like and support in your post, there are others i see slightly different.

But sorry, i heavily dispute your last paragraph about Ian and Mina, and especially the opening line

That's to say it friendly is a bold statement, and i am more than interested in how you would back up this claim.

No prob, but has to be in the evening or in the coming days.

 

[McGreed]

Ian and Mina: since Ian and Vicki are a theme, we have to speak about Mina a bit too. I am on the "Bring Ian and Mina back together" team, since Ian, for all his flaws, is a true friend to Edwin (and nobody has many of those in his/her life) and Mina has become a friend quickly too.

This part seems very strange to me, no offense. Do you think the fact that Ian is a true friend of Edwin's is good reason to try to make them couple again despite everything he's done? Personally, I do not believe that he can change and become a normal boyfriend for her. He had many chances for this, which he missed.

 

[selberdreher]

Regarding the porn career there are now at least four (or three) videos of Victoria with different timestamps in them, which validates them as real. I am not sure if i found them all, because they are sprinkled throughout the game and some of them we see only after very specific choices.
Since the timestamps were messed up in the last update i don't have visual proof readily available, and i have to play a recently downloaded Ch3Upd3 compressed version to have access to them again.
But so far, in case you and our fellow thread members take my word for it until i can provide those screenshots, these are the dates:

08. Jan 2009 Victorias casting video, from roughly 14:30 to 15:30, the colouring is greyish.
27. Feb 2009 Victorias supposedly second video, from ca 17:45 to 18:40, its the yellowish bukkake gangbang we see at the start.
24. Mar 2009 visually and thematically very close to the second one with a 17:05 timestamp, also yellowish with three men.

and last an again very likely mislabeled one
08. Jan 2009 11:37 Victoria partially undressed on a violet bed surrounded by two men.

as claimed in my post here, i don't think the flashback video in Rosies second exhibition took place in reality, but this claim could be wrong.

As far as the timestamps go, they are all located in the first half of 2009, that's why i concluded Vickys porn career was more a matter of months than years. Until a Video surfaces which has an 2010 or later timestamp, i will stick to my assumption.

 

[selberdreher]

No prob, but has to be in the evening or in the coming days.

Looking forward to it

 

[selberdreher]

This part seems very strange to me, no offense. Do you think the fact that Ian is a true friend of Edwin's is good reason to try to make them couple again despite everything he's done? Personally, I do not believe that he can change and become a normal boyfriend for her. He had many chances for this, which he missed.

While i wouldn't go down this path, i think this could be a way to teach Ian how healthy relationships should work. Given of course the premise that Ian at least likes Mina, which i believe he does, and it could be a way for him to disengage eventually from Victoria, who as i believe he truly loves.
Personally i think this is a high risk low return gamble, because obviously Mina is the better match for Edwin.

 

[Deleted member 3083868]

You may change the future, but the past has been already written.

In one of the first scenes, when Edwin visits Victoria for dinner, she asks "Who else is going to take care of me when i'm old?" and asks Edwin further "Speaking of Ian... How is our little heartthrob?" ending with "Say hi to him from me the next time you see him, okay?". Victoria brings Ian up in this conversation without necessity, just to deceive her son? And doubles down on this deception by setting up a fake account on a dating website?

You have a very dark view on her, if you think she is that nasty to Edwin, again without necessity, because she could have just kept quiet about her alleged affair counterpart.
But let's be real, at that point, it's the 7th of May, she definetly doesn't have anything going on with Ian. So depending on your definition of quite a while, that's already out of the window. If they would have gotten together, it would be a fairly recent thing.

Another point you totally oversee with your 'wishful fantasy fulfilment' is the dynamic of Victoria and Killian. If they were to have an affair, relationship, tryst, call it like you want, she would be the dominant one, she certainly would not take any crap from him, because Ian is wax in her hands. I am not saying that they are an unthinkable couple, but this possibility lies in the future and is not already happening.

So it's not about "nobody has to force themselves" it's about how the story already has developed to the recent point in time.

Ian is a player and a Milf lover. He's banging the maid who's taken care of him as a child and she is nowhere near as sexy as Victoria. No way Ian doesn't want some of Victoria for himself. If Edwin can get Mina then Ian can definitely get Victoria.

 

[McGreed]

While i wouldn't go down this path, i think this could be a way to teach Ian how healthy relationships should work. Given of course the premise that Ian at least likes Mina, which i believe he does, and it could be a way for him to disengage eventually from Victoria, who as i believe he truly loves.
Personally i think this is a high risk low return gamble, because obviously Mina is the better match for Edwin.

All girls are better match for Edwin. Let Ian have his maid or that random girl from the club in the beginning and thats all

 

[Turret]

This part seems very strange to me, no offense. Do you think the fact that Ian is a true friend of Edwin's is good reason to try to make them couple again despite everything he's done? Personally, I do not believe that he can change and become a normal boyfriend for her. He had many chances for this, which he missed.

Regarding the porn career there are now at least four (or three) videos of Victoria with different timestamps in them, which validates them as real. I am not sure if i found them all, because they are sprinkled throughout the game and some of them we see only after very specific choices.
Since the timestamps were messed up in the last update i don't have visual proof readily available, and i have to play a recently downloaded Ch3Upd3 compressed version to have access to them again.
But so far, in case you and our fellow thread members take my word for it until i can provide those screenshots, these are the dates:

08. Jan 2009 Victorias casting video, from roughly 14:30 to 15:30, the colouring is greyish.
27. Feb 2009 Victorias supposedly second video, from ca 17:45 to 18:40, its the yellowish bukkake gangbang we see at the start.
24. Mar 2009 visually and thematically very close to the second one with a 17:05 timestamp, also yellowish with three men.

and lastly an again very likely mislabeled one
08. Jan 2009 11:37 Victoria partially undressed on a violet bed surrounded by two men.

as claimed in my post here, i don't think the flashback video in Rosies second exhibition took place in reality, but this claim could be wrong.

As far as the timestamps go they are all located in the first half of 2009, that's why i concluded Vickys porn career was more a matter of months than years. Until a Video surfaces which has an 2010 or later timestamp, i will keep up my assumption.

A very compressed answer due to time!

Length of Vicki´s porn career: I go by the situation Victoria was in to extrapolate the length. Vicki and Edwin were on the streets, practically with nothing but the clothes on their back in "Baltimore". Even wellpaid porn goes only so far in easing the money problems, esp. with a small child to care for. I think Vicki was in porn until 2011 or 12, to build up a nestegg for the time she quits filming. I don´t think she was in it longer than 2012, because then she would have been become more known.
I see your reasons, selberdreher , but I still think that the flashback during Rosi´s pornshot was real. Edwin thinking back to a movie of his Mom having fun to cope better with the filming he was doing with Rosi.

Killian and Mina: Ian is a true friend, whose "relationship competence" has been seriously messed up by his parent´s neglect and Chuck´s "mentoring" for years. So we should at least try to help him! There are many hints throughout the game, that Ian loves Mina, but due to his "mentoring" believes he has to show the big bad player personality.
For instance, their relationship lasts far longer than any other Ian had and there are events like for example the phone call late in the current version, where he more or less admits that Mina is special, but due to how Grace and Chuck messed him up, he really does not know how to react or repair his relationship with her.

Killian and Victoria: I agree that Ian´s first love (the only other is Mina) is her for a convoluted mix of reasons.