Vakkyr

Newbie
Jun 18, 2017
71
85
There are maybe 2 customers who have more power than Kathleen and or her husband. One of them is another elected official so the pissing congressmen/senator has an equal amount of power and therefore isnt as much of a threat. The other Kristoff Jameson (leader of PMC) has been friends with Chuck for decades and is unlikely to come into a place Chuck made as a playground (Kathleens words) and tell him how to run stuff. We see an example of just this when Kristoff refuses to talk in front of Edwin until Chuck introduces them. If Kristoff was the one in power he would have no need to change is behavior. While the customers are "bad" people none of them are comic super villains, only three of them being anything other than a celebrity, and only two of those 3 having the same or more power than Kathleen.

Honestly curious how you think the high school admissions guy who wants lucy, Mihir, the boob guy, and a washed up B movie actor, an obese and perhaps dangerously horny Italian singer are controlling the owners?
I think, it's not so much the Question of who controls who in general. As long as everything runs smoothly, there is a fine Balance of Power inside the Club between the Owners and the Clients. Also, you don't need every Single client to be super Powerfull. Yes you have the washed up B Movie Actor, Lucys colleague and more, that would fit better for the "local Dungeon in a Small Town/Suburb" type of Club.

On the other side we have very Powerfull Clients as well. We have an High Rank Diplomat, not any Diplomat but the Ambassador himself, the Local Police Chief is also not to underestimate, with an Ambassador and Senator being present, the City the Club is in, and with that the Police Force he controls, would be rather big. And if all of this isn't enough we still have the PMC guy that practical owns a Private Army.

Yes, the mix of the clients is odd. And in my opinion, Waters down the supposed Exclusivity of the Club and it's believability and is (for me) one of the few weakpoints in the writing so far.

In the end i think the structure inside the Club is too complex as to break it simply down to an "who controls who" question. Yes there are for sure Situations inside the Club where the Owners can exert their power even to the Highranked Clients. But they should still be aware of the fact that, at least the Highranked clients, are outside of the Club evenly if not more Powerfull than they are.

As long as the Clients think they can trust the Owners to ensure the Secrecy of the Club, and that they would take action if it would be endangered, there is no need for them to involve themself more into the Club as enjoying it's Benefits. But, if this trust would be, in any way, damaged and the Owners would ignore their Clients interest, this could be the start of an "mutual annihilation war". And i think this complexity and possible fragility should be reflected by the Story and Plot.
 
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Turret

Engaged Member
Jun 23, 2017
3,790
6,538
Yes, the mix of the clients is odd. And in my opinion, Waters down the supposed Exclusivity of the Club and it's believability and is (for me) one of the few weakpoints in the writing so far.
I do not think the exclusivity of the PC Club is so unbelievable. What we learn over the run of the game is that PC´s "standard" activities are costly and thus to a certain degree exclusive, but open to anybody paying. What IS TRULY exclusive are the special events like the Pale Carnations competition. That is the glass ceiling in the club between the rank and file customes of the Club and the "elite". Remember, Jacob mentions it in passing that the "whales" of the Club rarely gather en masse, normally only on weekends and during the special events.
So on most days PC is more or less a high grade, sheltered luxury brothel where rather few of the big whigs customers are there. But it is the special events like the Pale Carnations which lifts them into their own league.
 

TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
748
6,601
Of the patrons that have screen time, I mentally divide them into a few groups: the truly to moderately powerful (the CEOs, politicians, and the arms dealer), those that serve a practical function (the dean, admission officer, and lawyer), and those that the other patrons enjoy to have around (like Samson and the tenor).

Ideally, there would be a handful more of the first group to round things out, but it's a tricky balance between representing the structure of the club and technical considerations. Between 12 patrons, 3 owners, 3 carnations, Hana, Ian, Edwin, and the odd house girl, exhibitions are the the ninth circle of hell when it comes to posing or even just loading the scene.
 

TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
748
6,601
I would be interested to know if TD1900 considers the chief as someone moderately/powerful or if they fall into practical purpose roll since depending on the story they want to write they could fall into either camp
A bit of both. Obviously there's the practical side of having the police in your pocket, but Jim having been appointed by the mayor isn't void of political capital or connections within the city. Of course, like you said, nothing saves you from the long dick of the federal government - and realistically speaking, all criminal organizations are just ticking time bombs or, at the very least, prone to to having their power structure reshuffled.
 
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Turret

Engaged Member
Jun 23, 2017
3,790
6,538
A bit of both. Obviously there's the practical side of having the police in your pocket, but Jim having been appointed by the mayor isn't void of political capital or connections within the city. Of course, like you said, nothing saves you from the long dick of the federal government
Well, if he is still among us (because of his estimated age he might not), "Dan Cooper" will tell you otherwise!;) But seriously, yes, if the federal govenrment really wants to nail you down, normally they will.
 
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selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
942
Ok, did some research on the probable location of Morehead Hills.
Previously i always entertained the idea Morehead Hills could be or is located close to New York.

Lets see what we got:

Chuck states on friday 8th of May "(...) Morehead Hills and the surrounding tri-state area (...)"
From the english wikipedia: Tri-state area is an informal term in the United States which can be used for any of several populated areas associated with a particular town or metropolis that, with adjacent suburbs, lies across three states.
Followed by a list of 23 areas commonly or occasionally referred to as tri-state areas.

If we assume the ambassador of new zealand is a regular at the carnation club and he is not the ambassador of NZ to the United Nations, the club cannot be located too far away from his official residence which would be in this case in Washington DC.
The club cannot be too far away, because for obvious reasons he can't leave his duties unattended for a suspiciously long time.

The third clue we get is that Morehead Hills is quite likely a renowned University City since it hosts the elite St. Ives academy Lucy tries to get her boy into and of course a university Edwin is studying at.

The fourth clue is that Morehead Hills has a subway system, since a subway exit is directly located in front of the Clubs' entrance. Which implies Morehead Hills is a relatively big city populationwise, thus ruling out some prestigious university locations in Virginia, because they are too small.

From above mentioned wikipedia list i think the following two areas are the best fit for those assumptions, with the latter being the more likely one:
  1. The Philadelphia metropolitan area, the distance between DC and Philadelphia is roughly 200km (140miles).
  2. The area that includes Washington DC and the nearby parts of Maryland and Virginia is sometimes loosely referred to as a "tri-state area," although the District of Columbia is not a state. However, with the presence of Jefferson County, West Virginia, in the official Washington–Arlington–Alexandria metropolitan statistical area, the region, as defined by the US Government, does in fact include three states. This area is colloquially referred to as "the DMV" (DC, Maryland, Virginia).
The second option also includes the Baltimore metropolitan area also known as Central Maryland with a combined population of 2.7 millions. The greater Washington–Baltimore metropolitan area boasts an impressive 9.97 million residents.
These numbers are important because the club has to draw its high-class clients from a relatively large population base. It's not very likely that Charlottesville, VA hosts CEOs, actors, tenors and the like.
Especially for Kristoffer Jameson and his PMC it's very rational to be located close to the Capital, too.

Baltimore, which is located 64km (40miles) northeast of Washington at a reasonable distance, has indeed a subway (Baltimore Metro SubwayLink), with Johns Hopkins University and Johns Hopkins Hospital being the city's top two employers.

Johns Hopkins University is a private (!) research (!) university and it consistently ranks among the most prestigious universities in the world. The cost of attendance per year is approximately $77400 (!) and acceptance rates were roughly at 10% throughout the past few years but dropped even lower in 2021 to 6.4%. Which would certainly elevate Mihirs importance and his role if he was a dean of this institution.

The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (JHUSOM) is the medical school of Johns Hopkins University, which also has consistently ranked among the top medical schools in the United States in terms of the number of research grants awarded by the National Institutes of Health and other measures. The cost of attendance per year is approximately $66000 (!) (excluding living expenses, the school estimates a total of ~$90000 if you include them). This is the reason why the Clubs' job offer is too good to pass for Edwin.

And finally Johns Hopkins Hospital (JHH) is the teaching hospital and biomedical research (!) facility of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, widely regarded as one of the world's greatest hospitals and medical institutions. The Hospital and its school of medicine are considered to be the founding institutions of modern American medicine and the birthplace of numerous famous medical traditions. This would explain also the presence of Dr. van Doren and Sophia in this city, with his company near world class medical and biomedical research facilities.

With all this i am pretty convinced, that Morehead Hills is modelled after Baltimore, Maryland. It ties everything neatly together and shows that the carnation club may not cater to the absolut elite 0.1%, but definetly doesn't serve some backwater D-rank wannabees either.

What is your take on it?
 

Vakkyr

Newbie
Jun 18, 2017
71
85
Damn, you all really gave me something to think about, and i think i cant really contibute to the Discussion anymore until i, at least, played through the actual Update once, to get the same insight as you all. I'll try to make time to play the Game in the comming Week but don't expect a reply from me until i managed to play through the Game at least once.

I want to thank you all for you insights and perspectives on the Story so far, but please bear with me that i want to play through the actual aviable content first, before i state my opinion again. I really love the lively Discussion we have here and i'm really greatfull that we managed to keep the Discussion constructive and respectfull, what is not a given thing on the Internet.
 

Bill Temple

Active Member
May 20, 2021
636
2,241
Ok, did some research on the probable location of Morehead Hills.
Previously i always entertained the idea Morehead Hills could be or is located close to New York.

Lets see what we got:

Chuck states on friday 8th of May "(...) Morehead Hills and the surrounding tri-state area (...)"
From the english wikipedia: Tri-state area is an informal term in the United States which can be used for any of several populated areas associated with a particular town or metropolis that, with adjacent suburbs, lies across three states.
Followed by a list of 23 areas commonly or occasionally referred to as tri-state areas.

If we assume the ambassador of new zealand is a regular at the carnation club and he is not the ambassador of NZ to the United Nations, the club cannot be located too far away from his official residence which would be in this case in Washington DC.
The club cannot be too far away, because for obvious reasons he can't leave his duties unattended for a suspiciously long time.

The third clue we get is that Morehead Hills is quite likely a renowned University City since it hosts the elite St. Ives academy Lucy tries to get her boy into and of course a university Edwin is studying at.

The fourth clue is that Morehead Hills has a subway system, since a subway exit is directly located in front of the Clubs' entrance. Which implies Morehead Hills is a relatively big city populationwise, thus ruling out some prestigious university locations in Virginia, because they are too small.

From above mentioned wikipedia list i think the following two areas are the best fit for those assumptions, with the latter being the more likely one:
  1. The Philadelphia metropolitan area, the distance between DC and Philadelphia is roughly 200km (140miles).
  2. The area that includes Washington DC and the nearby parts of Maryland and Virginia is sometimes loosely referred to as a "tri-state area," although the District of Columbia is not a state. However, with the presence of Jefferson County, West Virginia, in the official Washington–Arlington–Alexandria metropolitan statistical area, the region, as defined by the US Government, does in fact include three states. This area is colloquially referred to as "the DMV" (DC, Maryland, Virginia).
The second option also includes the Baltimore metropolitan area also known as Central Maryland with a combined population of 2.7 millions. The greater Washington–Baltimore metropolitan area boasts an impressive 9.97 million residents.
These numbers are important because the club has to draw its high-class clients from a relatively large population base. It's not very likely that Charlottesville, VA hosts CEOs, actors, tenors and the like.
Especially for Kristoffer Jameson and his PMC it's very rational to be located close to the Capital, too.

Baltimore, which is located 64km (40miles) northeast of Washington at a reasonable distance, has indeed a subway (Baltimore Metro SubwayLink), with Johns Hopkins University and Johns Hopkins Hospital being the city's top two employers.

Johns Hopkins University is a private (!) research (!) university and it consistently ranks among the most prestigious universities in the world. The cost of attendance per year is approximately $77400 (!) and acceptance rates were roughly at 10% throughout the past few years but dropped even lower in 2021 to 6.4%. Which would certainly elevate Mihirs importance and his role if he was a dean of this institution.

The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (JHUSOM) is the medical school of Johns Hopkins University, which also has consistently ranked among the top medical schools in the United States in terms of the number of research grants awarded by the National Institutes of Health and other measures. The cost of attendance per year is approximately $66000 (!) (excluding living expenses, the school estimates a total of ~$90000 if you include them). This is the reason why the Clubs' job offer is too good to pass for Edwin.

And finally Johns Hopkins Hospital (JHH) is the teaching hospital and biomedical research (!) facility of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, widely regarded as one of the world's greatest hospitals and medical institutions. The Hospital and its school of medicine are considered to be the founding institutions of modern American medicine and the birthplace of numerous famous medical traditions. This would explain also the presence of Dr. van Doren and Sophia in this city, with his company near world class medical and biomedical research facilities.

With all this i am pretty convinced, that Morehead Hills is modelled after Baltimore, Maryland. It ties everything neatly together and shows that the carnation club may not cater to the absolut elite 0.1%, but definetly doesn't serve some backwater D-rank wannabees either.

What is your take on it?
I like to think Morehead Hills is Boston. Rhode Island and New Hampshire are both less than 50 miles from Boston. Boston has a subway system, some pretty famous universities, and plenty of elite prep schools. I don't think ambassadors are tied to their embassy at all times, and an 80 minute flight can get you from DC to Boston.
 

selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
942
I like to think Morehead Hills is Boston. Rhode Island and New Hampshire are both less than 50 miles from Boston. Boston has a subway system, some pretty famous universities, and plenty of elite prep schools. I don't think ambassadors are tied to their embassy at all times, and an 80 minute flight can get you from DC to Boston.
Yes, i was thinking about that too: "what if he just flies to another tri-state a bit further away?"

The problem in my opinion would not only be that in any case he would need considerably more time (80mins flight* 2 for a roundtrip + check-in*2 + airport security check*2 + commute to and from airport * 2), but that he would leave very visible traces using flights. I think the New Zealand counterintelligence agency would be very interested why their ambassador is flying 9 to 10 times a year to Boston or elsewhere (if we assume a very infrequent rate of visits like every 2 months, and given his money-slave relation to Dahlia i think he visits more often, plus the 4 attendances at the exhibitions). Granted timewise a diplomat should be able to get priority check ins and can perhaps even avoid security checks, but hiding those flights is hard. He gets logged in a lot of computer systems, and NZ has signed into the UKUSA agreement and ECHELON, which means their agencies are buddies to boot.
Even if NZ doesn't notice they would be surely tipped off by the CIA or NSA.
The next question would be how the club established contact in the first place, sure they could met by chance, when he was for whatever reason there, but inviting him after a one-time random encounter, seems very bold to me.

While he can easily excuse himself for like 4 to 6 hours without leaving too much traces if driving by car, when he visits Baltimore.
And since he is in the greater Baltimore area, it would be rather easy for Kathleen to get aquainted to him over a couple of chance encounters, because they attended the same high-society events. Fundraising and charity and whatnot those people hangout.
 
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selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
942
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Just found his introduction scene, he is the ambassador to the USA and not the United Nations, so definetly Washington based.
 

selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
942
Thinking about Edwin and Ian taking a drive to his family house Baltimore is a bit of a stretch for them to want to drive since its more than a 5 hour drive
I just read the dialogue between them, and Ian doesn't mention the location of their summer house? Ian just says it's furthest one of the three (Condo, House in Perigrine Terrace and Summer House).

Anyway i think there is a reason TD1900 hasn't straight away chosen Baltimore proper as PCs city and named it instead Morehead Hills. It's called artistic license and helps them to avoid to be pinned down by guys like me for 'false' descriptions, which are true for Morehead Hills, but wrong for the real Baltimore.

P.S. Google doesn't know a Perigrine Terrace either
 

muschi26

Engaged Member
Jun 22, 2019
2,721
4,088
I've seen this game recommended in a breeding/pregnancy thread, but I don't see any pregnancy tags; does it contain that type of content? or was it just an error?
 

DirtyMario

Jumping bitches since '85
Donor
Jul 19, 2017
1,265
4,111
I've seen this game recommended in a breeding/pregnancy thread, but I don't see any pregnancy tags; does it contain that type of content? or was it just an error?
There is one side encounter with a pregnant girl but it's just a few lines of dialog and a few renders. Nothing sexual.
 

OleJackRipper

Active Member
Mar 22, 2021
746
713
. . . .so the flashbacks of the mom doing porn don't count as ntr?

the vet's around here are probably more than familiar with how ntr haters most likely do in fact consider that ntr
 
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selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
942
. . . .so the flashbacks of the mom doing porn don't count as ntr?

the vet's around here are probably more than familiar with how ntr haters most likely do in fact consider that ntr
Do a bit of research in this thread, and you will find that this question has already been sufficiently and exhaustively answered.
 

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,208
13,378
Alas, yes, . ;)

That aside, I'd hope for their sake that the Club has a more sophisticated plan to avoid federal prosecution than sheer audacity. That works much better for a one-time theft than an ongoing operation.
 
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