VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[McGreed]

Oh you just had to start with that shit now right?

These messages will never end

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

Speaking of, I'm really curious to see if Hana will become more open to or even corrupted to the idea of the club. Does anyone else feel the same? I think it would make for extremely interesting storytelling and choices if how we see the club effects how she feels about it. Maybe she might warm up to it because of us or her more involved position makes her realise her inner depravities.

It would definitely make things darker because she's one of the only people working there that seems to have some basis of morality (societal ones at least, I don't judge) and I think having an option or path for her to change her mind and partake in her (likely) boyfriend's darker tendencies if any would add a lot of depth to her route.

The game takes place over the course of 4 weeks I think? And 4 weeks is too early to do a complete 180 on her personality.

Yes she is a part of the club despite her morals because she like everyone else needs money however at least from my perspective wanting to save your mother's life is very different from the goals of the MC, Felicia, Lucy or Veronica for example. If anything her going against her morals to save the life of someone she loves is even more admirable in my eyes.

If the game took place over the course of a few years then yes I see her personality changing but I dont see how you could realistically do this in just a couple of weeks. Unless we use Abel's drugs on her I dont think this will happen. People dont change their personalities overnight. It is a gradual process that takes time and we dont have that kind of time in the game.

 

[TD1900]

Any estimate on the upcoming release date?

You'll definitely have a release this month.

GIL will, if not tonight, finish up the remaining images for the last bit of script tomorrow. After the creative portion is finished, our polishing and proofreading phase usually eats up about a week but it could be slightly longer this time due to a bulky furniture delivery I have scheduled in the middle of the month that will necessitate me taking a day or two to get my office together. Also, I'm still shaking off a chest infection, but my ability to concentrate has mostly returned by this point. Fingers crossed there.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Five chapters and epilogues if not mistaken.

 

[ermac2021]

Great game. I can play 1000 chapters of this game if possible. Wait for full release to come out on Steam.

 

[browse_man]

The game takes place over the course of 4 weeks I think? And 4 weeks is too early to do a complete 180 on her personality.

Yes she is a part of the club despite her morals because she like everyone else needs money however at least from my perspective wanting to save your mother's life is very different from the goals of the MC, Felicia, Lucy or Veronica for example. If anything her going against her morals to save the life of someone she loves is even more admirable in my eyes.

If the game took place over the course of a few years then yes I see her personality changing but I dont see how you could realistically do this in just a couple of weeks. Unless we use Abel's drugs on her I dont think this will happen. People dont change their personalities overnight. It is a gradual process that takes time and we dont have that kind of time in the game.

Right, that is true. I forgot about the time constraints of the game for a second there and didn't even think about her motivation for being there for some reason. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

You'll definitely have a release this month.

GIL will, if not tonight, finish up the remaining images for the last bit of script tomorrow. After the creative portion is finished, our polishing and proofreading phase usually eats up about a week but it could be slightly longer this time due to a bulky furniture delivery I have scheduled in the middle of the month that will necessitate me taking a day or two to get my office together. Also, I'm still shaking off a chest infection, but my ability to concentrate has mostly returned by this point. Fingers crossed there.

Get well soon, TD! Hope everything runs smoothly on your end.

 

[Zarathos27]

Great game. I can play 1000 chapters of this game if possible. Wait for full release to come out on Steam.

Steam release isn't possible cuz of Honey Select rights. Why you don't see any VNs made using HS or HS2 on Steam.

 

[DirtyMario]

Also, I'm still shaking off a chest infection, but my ability to concentrate has mostly returned by this point. Fingers crossed there.

Get well soon!

2 of my favourites seem to be releasing this month, oh god. Time management was never my strong suit.

 

[Turret]

Get well soon!

Seconded!

 

[selberdreher]

The game takes place over the course of 4 weeks I think? And 4 weeks is too early to do a complete 180 on her personality.
(...)
If the game took place over the course of a few years then yes I see her personality changing but I dont see how you could realistically do this in just a couple of weeks. (...) It is a gradual process that takes time and we dont have that kind of time in the game.

Yes, normally and in general that's true.

However

People dont change their personalities overnight.

now this does sadly happen. Put someone under extreme mental and psychological stress, make them fear for their lives or their loved ones, or let them experience some other kind of trauma (like accidents or disasters) and we have plenty of cases in which someone changed their personality completely. Recent examples include soldiers returning from the front, who are barely recognized by their partners. With these conditions met, changes are possible very fast.

Relatively fast changes - which are perhaps more likely to happen in the scope of PC - can be achieved by

• gaslighting: presenting a false narrative, thereby leading a person to doubt their perceptions and become misled, disoriented or distressed. Can also set the stage for the aforementioned causes.
• Drug abuse: with Abels serum as the prime example, but not exclusively since there are other drugs also available at the club.
• Exposure to unusual or disagreeable behaviour, tends to bend a persons own perception towards the behaviour. Experiments have shown, that a lot of people have a hard time to dissent with a common shared opinion inside a closed group.
  You must be registered to see the links
  and the
  You must be registered to see the links
  should suffice as example.
• 'Brainwashing' as practiced in cults and other groups with special interests which are closed off to the general public and therefore can keep their members isolated inside their space of influence. Several conditions are met by the carnation club, and we can single out the technique of '
  You must be registered to see the links
  ' practiced by Kathleen.
• Sexwork: the methods commonly used by pimps to control their victims "closely resemble the brainwashing techniques of terrorists and paranoid cults."
  You must be registered to see the links
  . One ingame example would be Lucy, who is loosing her self-image as a heterosexual, caring mother and married woman really fast at the moment. I could also post some real-life examples who lost their shit incredible fast throughout their 'career'.
• The Taste of Power: the opportunity to exert real power inside the club. I don't think i'll need to cite real-life examples, and we already see the corrupting influence ingame on Edwin. "
  You must be registered to see the links
  "
• any combination or combination of parts of the above, there is no need to concentrate on a single technique. It's also very likely that my list is not exhaustive. These were just the ones i came up with.

So as we can see there is a wide array of possibilities available to change Hanas views, perception, self-image and values, which are of course part of her personality. While her initial disposition towards the club may power up her resilience, she is not invulnerable to those factors, should they be implemented by the club and/or our choices.

I am confident in TD1900s capability to write a consistent and believeable downfall of Hana, if they decide to go down this road.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

Yes, normally and in general that's true.

However

now this does sadly happen. Put someone under extreme mental and psychological stress, make them fear for their lives or their loved ones, or let them experience some other kind of trauma (like accidents or disasters) and we have plenty of cases in which someone changed their personality completely. Recent examples include soldiers returning from the front, who are barely recognized by their partners. With these conditions met, changes are possible very fast.

Relatively fast changes - which are perhaps more likely to happen in the scope of PC - can be achieved by

• gaslighting: presenting a false narrative, thereby leading a person to doubt their perceptions and become misled, disoriented or distressed. Can also set the stage for the aforementioned causes.
• Drug abuse: with Abels serum as the prime example, but not exclusively since there are other drugs also available at the club.
• Exposure to unusual or disagreeable behaviour, tends to bend a persons own perception towards the behaviour. Experiments have shown, that a lot of people have a hard time to dissent with a common shared opinion inside a closed group.
  You must be registered to see the links
  and the
  You must be registered to see the links
  should suffice as example.
• 'Brainwashing' as practiced in cults and other groups with special interests which are closed off to the general public and therefore can keep their members isolated inside their space of influence. Several conditions are met by the carnation club, and we can single out the technique of '
  You must be registered to see the links
  ' practiced by Kathleen.
• Sexwork: the methods commonly used by pimps to control their victims "closely resemble the brainwashing techniques of terrorists and paranoid cults."
  You must be registered to see the links
  . One ingame example would be Lucy, who is loosing her self-image as a heterosexual, caring mother and married woman really fast at the moment. I could also post some real-life examples who lost their shit incredible fast throughout their 'career'.
• The Taste of Power: the opportunity to exert real power inside the club. I don't think i'll need to cite real-life examples, and we already see the corrupting influence ingame on Edwin. "
  You must be registered to see the links
  "
• any combination or combination of parts of the above, there is no need to concentrate on a single technique. It's also very likely that my list is not exhaustive. These were just the ones i came up with.

So as we can see there is a wide array of possibilities available to change Hanas views, perception, self-image and values, which are of course part of her personality. While her initial disposition towards the club may power up her resilience, she is not invulnerable to those factors, should they be implemented by the club and/or our choices.

I am confident in TD1900s capability to write a consistent and believeable downfall of Hana, if they decide to go down this road.

Of the bullet points you mentioned, I can see only a small subset of them altering hana's personality within 2 weeks simply because 1) she has survived in that environment for over a year without changes to her personality and 2) She is August's daughter.

- Gaslighting, brainwashing, exposure to unusual behavior: I dont think this will change her personality because she has been in the club for over a year. Her personality would have changed long before the MC joined the club if she could be manipulated this way. If she was fine over a year she will be fine for the next 2 weeks.
- Sex work: I dont see how she can be pressured into sex work because 1) She is August's daughter and 2) She is now rich.

What I can see working is:

- Drug abuse: It is easy to lose yourself when addicted to drugs and if we get her to take Abel's drug (or other drugs) it can quickly result in her downfall.
- Getting high on power: I think this a more likely scenario when it comes to her dark path. I dont think she took advantage of her position as August's daughter in the past year because she hated him but now that she is slowly becoming more open to participating in the club's affairs, I can see the MC influencing her to make bad decisions. It does not seem like she is inherently sadistic though so it would be difficult to write a believable downfall that happens in just 2 weeks (since we are already past week 2).

 

[selberdreher]

Of the bullet points you mentioned, I can see only a small subset of them altering hana's personality within 2 weeks simply because (...)

Regarding Point 1) and parts of your second paragraph:

1) she has survived in that environment for over a year without changes to her personality (...).

- Gaslighting, brainwashing, exposure to unusual behavior: I dont think this will change her personality because she has been in the club for over a year. Her personality would have changed long before the MC joined the club if she could be manipulated this way. If she was fine over a year she will be fine for the next 2 weeks.

Personally i do believe Hana isn't the same person she was when she entered the club. Although her changes so far may have been minor, partly due her inherent resistance.
There is also the question in which way changes happen, are they steady and linear over time, or are they accelerating over time like visualized in this graph:

Spoiler: Two possible paths of change

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Again -personally- i am inclined to go with the red variant, there are quite a few systems in nature on which we can't observe much change over a relatively long amount of time after they came under pressure, but when they have been stripped of their ability to resist, this change happens very fast.

I would also argue that from these three, gaslighting, 'brainwashing' and exposure to unusual behaviour she experienced only the last one in her first year. And i am quite sure it already left a mark on her, because i believe she is already much more compliant with the workings of the club than she was in the beginning. I can only imagine how upset she was, when she learned of her work uniform required for barkeeping. I believe that was a sight to behold, and now she is wearing it quite comfortable already.

The gaslighting has only just begun, the talk about her future influence on the club with Kathleen and later Edwin serve as an example, and the effects are yet to be seen. I should probably note, that i don't see the whole spectrum of techniques of gaslighting applied to her, but instead particularly the one in which she is being accused of, or better coaxed into the inaccurate perception of reality or incorrect assessment of reality regarding the club and her future.

Although i don't see signs of actual brainwashing at the moment, there are already conditions which would ease the application of those techniques, primarily her relative small social circle. Cut her off from her mother and her few friends, and you restrict her social interactions effectively to the club. After that you can work on her for real. I don't say it's easy, but doable.

And please remember, one doesn't need to use the full scale of one of those, but you can pick techniques from all those three and work with which is applicable in Hanas case.

Of the bullet points you mentioned, I can see only a small subset of them altering hana's personality within 2 weeks simply because (...) 2) She is August's daughter.

- Sex work: I dont see how she can be pressured into sex work because 1) She is August's daughter and 2) She is now rich.

Regarding Point 2) from your first paragraph and Point 1) from the second: she is Augusts' daughter
This one protects her only so far, as physical harm or very rough psychological treatment is involved. However we have to keep in mind, that August actually agrees with the notion to get Hana comfortable with this business, he wants to change her in this regard, and therefore would only oppose extreme measures and will probably even partake in less violent or invasive ones.
The moment August basically blackmailed Hana into the club it became clear that he hasn't her best interests in mind, but rather tried to serve his own needs and wants. Or tried to meet his own wants with something he believes to be in her own interest also. This doesn't mean he doesn't kind of love her, probably, yet it's a shitty behaviour nonetheless.

2) She is now rich.
No she isn't. She can't go to her bank and plunder her account for thousands of dollars and book the next flight to Rio or pay for her mothers medical bills herself. In theory she is now a co-owner of the club, but completely by grace of the three old ones. If they refuse to pay her out or to transfer her fair share in actual money, she can't do anything about it.

And last but not least sexworking:
I didn't necessarily want to imply that Hana is doing the sexwork (although both Chuck and August were awfully comfortable when Kathleen had to do it, so obviously being an owner doesn't provide too much protection), but i am not so sure if August would have too much qualms with it.
Afterall it's the families business, there are quite a few pornstars who became porn-producers later and there are a lot of prostitutes who later run a brothel as 'madame'. I can't say how wicked August is, but Hanas mother was a pornstarlet and/or prostitute, so if Hana continues her mothers profession, this could be seen by him as kind of 'passing the baton' and learning about the business from both sides.

However i do believe sexworking isn't only affecting the porn actor or prostitute, but also the pimp and the crew involved in porn.
We already stated that for instance a low empathy with prostitutes is kind of a necessary job requirement for any pimp. So a pimp needs to get rid of overly compassionate feelings with his girls, else it would impact his job performance negatively.
August has indeed already given a nice example of this, when he ordered a sick girl back to work.

Same is valid for porn, imagine following scene:
A particularly rough anal shoot is going on already for like two hours, but the director 'needs' some more footage. The actress starts complaining about how her butt is getting sore, to which the director replies: "Someone get her more lube!"
How many -if any- crew members do you think will step forward and say: "Hey man, i think she has enough, let her go already."
My guess would be that in 99% of all cases they will keep quiet and someone instead is fetching the lube. Simply because they have seen that already many times, and it is how it is: part of the business. Get used to it or drop out.

To conclude i'd like to say, that i believe Hanas internal defenses are under attack already for a quite long time, and every day chips away a bit, wearing them down. So far we haven't seen much impact on her, but these attacks have increased considerably in power recently and will probably increase even further in the near future, so i am not sure how much more she can take.
Edwin will play a crucial role, when he decides to help her to reinforce her defense or if he willingly or unknowingly joins the attack on them.

P.S.
I don't believe 'brainwashing' is a good term for the methods used in changing personality and behavioural patterns, but it serves it's purpose without the need to get into too much detail, because most people have a rough understanding of what is meant by it. And like always every single one of those techniques deserve a more elaborated discussion, but i tried to keep it short.

 

[DirtyMario]

When are thy making a new Update ?

Quoting this for you because literally no one can be expected to scroll back like maybe half a page in this totally crazy and blindingly fast moving thread.

You'll definitely have a release this month.

GIL will, if not tonight, finish up the remaining images for the last bit of script tomorrow. After the creative portion is finished, our polishing and proofreading phase usually eats up about a week but it could be slightly longer this time due to a bulky furniture delivery I have scheduled in the middle of the month that will necessitate me taking a day or two to get my office together. Also, I'm still shaking off a chest infection, but my ability to concentrate has mostly returned by this point. Fingers crossed there.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

Regarding Point 1) and parts of your second paragraph:

Personally i do believe Hana isn't the same person she was when she entered the club. Although her changes so far may have been minor, partly due her inherent resistance.
There is also the question in which way changes happen, are they steady and linear over time, or are they accelerating over time like visualized in this graph:

Spoiler: Two possible paths of change

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Again -personally- i am inclined to go with the red variant, there are quite a few systems in nature on which we can't observe much change over a relatively long amount of time after they came under pressure, but when they have been stripped of their ability to resist, this change happens very fast.

I would also argue that from these three, gaslighting, 'brainwashing' and exposure to unusual behaviour she experienced only the last one in her first year. And i am quite sure it already left a mark on her, because i believe she is already much more compliant with the workings of the club than she was in the beginning. I can only imagine how upset she was, when she learned of her work uniform required for barkeeping. I believe that was a sight to behold, and now she is wearing it quite comfortable already.

The gaslighting has only just begun, the talk about her future influence on the club with Kathleen and later Edwin serve as an example, and the effects are yet to be seen. I should probably note, that i don't see the whole spectrum of techniques of gaslighting applied to her, but instead particularly the one in which she is being accused of, or better coaxed into the inaccurate perception of reality or incorrect assessment of reality regarding the club and her future.

Although i don't see signs of actual brainwashing at the moment, there are already conditions which would ease the application of those techniques, primarily her relative small social circle. Cut her off from her mother and her few friends, and you restrict her social interactions effectively to the club. After that you can work on her for real. I don't say it's easy, but doable.

And please remember, one doesn't need to use the full scale of one of those, but you can pick techniques from all those three and work with which is applicable in Hanas case.




Regarding Point 2) from your first paragraph and Point 1) from the second: she is Augusts' daughter
This one protects her only so far, as physical harm or very rough psychological treatment is involved. However we have to keep in mind, that Augusts actually agrees with the notion to get Hana comfortable with this business, he wants to change her in this regard, and therefore would only oppose extreme measures and will probably even partake in less violent or invasive ones.
The moment August basically blackmailed Hana into the club it became clear that he hasn't her best interests in mind, but rather tried to serve his own needs and wants. Or tried to meet his own wants with something he believes to be in her own interest also. This doesn't mean he doesn't kind of love her, probably, yet it's a shitty behaviour nonetheless.

2) She is now rich.
No she isn't. She can't go to her bank and plunder her account for thousands of dollars and book the next flight to Rio or pay for her mothers medical bills herself. In theory she is now a co-owner of the club, but completely by grace of the three old ones. If they refuse to pay her out or to transfer her fair share in actual money, she can't do anything about it.

And last but not least sexworking:
I didn't necessarily want to imply that Hana is doing the sexwork (although both Chuck and August were awfully comfortable when Kathleen had to do it, so obviously being an owner doesn't provide too much protection), but i am not so sure if August would have too much qualms with it.
Afterall it's the families business, there are quite a few pornstars who became porn-producers later and there are a lot of prostitutes who later run a brothel as 'madame'. I can't say how wicked August is, but Hanas mother was a pornstarlet and/or prostitute, so if Hana continues her mothers profession, this could be seen by him as kind of 'passing the baton' and learning about the business from both sides.

However i do believe sexworking isn't only affecting the porn actor or prostitute, but also the pimp and the crew involved in porn.
We already stated that for instance a low empathy with prostitutes is kind of a necessary job requirement for any pimp. So a pimp needs to get rid of overly compassionate feelings with his girls, else it would impact his job performance negatively.
August does indeed already gave a nice example of this, when he ordered a sick girl back to work.

Same is valid for porn, imagine following scene:
A particularly rough anal shoot is going on already for like two hours, but the director 'needs' some more footage. The actress starts complaining about how her butt is getting sore, to which the director replies: "Someone get her more lube!"
How many -if any- crew members do you think will step forward and say: "Hey man, i think she has enough, let her go already."
My guess would be that in 99% of all cases they will keep quiet and someone instead is fetching the lube. Simply because they have seen that already many times, and it is how it is: part of the business. Get used to it or drop out.

To conclude i'd like to say, that i believe Hanas internal defenses are under attack already for a quite long time, and every day chips away a bit, wearing them down. So far we haven't seen much impact on her, but these attacks have increased considerably in power recently and will probably increase even further in the near future, so i am not sure how much more she can take.
Edwin will play a crucial role, when he decides to help her to reinforce her defense or if he willingly or unknowingly joins the attack on them.

P.S.
I don't believe 'brainwashing' is a good term for the methods used in changing personality and behavioural patterns, but it serves it's purpose without the need to get into too much detail, because most people have a rough understanding of what is meant by it. And like always every single one of those techniques deserve a more elaborated discussion, but i tried to keep it short.

I do think that eventually she can get corrupted by staying in the club.

I just find it extremely difficult to believe this will happen in 2 weeks when she has already been there for >1 year. My argument is not that she is immune to being corrupted by the club it is that it cannot realistically happen in less than 2 weeks without the influence of something like drugs. The MC convincing her to make certain choices can play a role in changing her personality but I can only see it changing by the time of the epilogues set in the future and not in the 2 week period where the game takes place in.

 

[selberdreher]

I do think that eventually she can get corrupted by staying in the club.

I just find it extremely difficult to believe this will happen in 2 weeks when she has already been there for >1 year. My argument is not that she is immune to being corrupted by the club it is that it cannot realistically happen in less than 2 weeks without the influence of something like drugs. The MC convincing her to make certain choices can play a role in changing her personality but I can only see it changing by the time of the epilogues set in the future and not in the 2 week period where the game takes place in.

Yes and no. I also don't believe we can get a rebellish, freedom-loving and compassionate (her fixed vote for Rosie shows that) Hana full of self-esteem to an ice-hearted, sadist bitch or a mindbroken bimbo-whore (without the use of a certain drug) in just two weeks.
Yet there are a alot of adjustments possible which may not seem so obvious, but still would signify that she lost aspects of her initial personality.

Like for instance, i expect her not to have a set vote in the 3rd exhibition, instead she likely will vote based on her preferences (perhaps the softer choices?) like Kathleen did in the 2nd exhib. This would indicate Hana has lost already a good amount of her compassion, because even in this thread of perverts the majority believes that Rosie is the most deserving of the three carnations.

The second aspect highly at risk is in my opinion her rebellous attitude. I think she was genuinely shocked how her meeting with the mob developed due her disrespect of Otto. She will surely think twice next time if a more appropriate behaviour may be advisable, and if generally a more professional attitude within the club may be necessary, if only to make an impression on her employees and clients.

Now lets add an intrigue to overthrow her friendship with her two band-mates and tell Harper to keep her distance from Hana (which she will perhaps do anyway, since Hana is now an owner), this leaves Hana with her only (very recent) collegue and friend Edwin. Navigating in such unknown and frightening waters may her lean on Edwin in a way she never experienced before. This growing dependency may in turn undermine her self-reliance and autonomy.
How free are you if you are dependent on someone? Or on something? Not very, and she may decide that it's quite energy cost efficient and much less a struggle to go with the flow, instead of always swimming against it. Perhaps she is simply tired after fighting for so long to keep her head above the water.

So now you tell me how much a way less compassionate, a straightened up and dependent Hana resembles the one we know and love?
Quite a change, i'd say, without the need to go to extremes.

 

[Axeleen]

Get well soon!

2 of my favourites seem to be releasing this month

What's the other one ?

 

[KKpotato]

You must be registered to see the links

Hey all, GIL and I are happy to announce the completion of the creative portion of Ch4Up1.
As of Friday night, GIL has completed all the images and animations that the script asked for. All told this update will have 1,477 statics, 62 clips, and 36,252 words.
Now we move onto the polishing and proofreading portion. As usual, we're gonna give ourselves a week here. So, the release dates are as follows:
Owner Tier Release: October 17
Platinum Tier Release: October 24
Public Release: October 31
As you all know, this is largely a Hana update. The update also features character development for Ian, and depending on how you ended the last update, content for either Mina, Veronica, Kathleen, or Victoria. I'm proud of the update from top to bottom, but if you have no interest in seeing Hana content, it might not be worth your bandwidth to download. Cutting out the Hana stuff will make it very short.
Please look forward to the update, and as always, thank you for your interest and support in our project.

 

[KKpotato]

This is gonna be a fun month. Tons of good updates coming this month.

 

[Mograx]

Halloween release eh? Works for me, I was planning on telling all the kids showing up for candy to go fuck themselves anyway.

 

[cheesetriangles]

What kind of sicko wouldn't be into Hana?