VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[DirtyMario]

What's the other one ?

Chasing sunsets

 

[Hector Wimbleton]

Ay yo October 31st? Just in time for Nonstop Nut November

 

[Ringgi]

Save or load is broken can help for fix it?

 

[sunaboz]

Save or load is broken can help for fix it?

We don't know what's wrong in your game, you need to be more specific. If I were to guess though I would bet on you having some mod installed. Try downloading the game again (it's publicly available now

You must be registered to see the links

).

I've recently replayed the whole game from start to finish and it took me less than 15 minutes (so by replay I meant skipping most dialogues and making saves at key moments, I've lost saves so I had to do that for the upcoming new release). Protip: if you right mouse click on a skip button you can jump to the next choice immediately.

BTW, I love this hilarious scene and had to re-read it again:

 

[aenneak]

As you all know, this is largely a Hana update. The update also features character development for Ian, and depending on how you ended the last update, content for either Mina, Veronica, Kathleen, or Victoria. I'm proud of the update from top to bottom, but if you have no interest in seeing Hana content, it might not be worth your bandwidth to download. Cutting out the Hana stuff will make it very short.
Please look forward to the update, and as always, thank you for your interest and support in our project.

Isn't it also Felicia party/date (don't remember what it was called) week/day? I think it was on Wednesday. Or maybe Wednesday isn't part of this update?

Or maybe i just misremember when it was supposed to be. Or when last update ended.

But Hana is one of my favorites too.

 

[ename144]

Isn't it also Felicia party/date (don't remember what it was called) week/day? I think it was on Wednesday. Or maybe Wednesday isn't part of this update?

Or maybe i just misremember when it was supposed to be. Or when last update ended.

But Hana is one of my favorites too.

As far as we know, this update is only the Sunday following the Exhibition. It covers the wrap-up to the MC's evening (with Mina, Veronica, Victoria or Kathleen), hanging out with Ian, and the date with Hana (if you're on her path). The rest of the week will be handled by subsequent updates. That's when we'll address things like the winners/losers of the second week Exhibition, Felica's sugar momma test run, the threesome with Ian and Rosalind, whatever Mina will be up to, or the prep for the third Exhibition.

There's a lot to look forward to, we just need to pace ourselves.

 

[Turret]

Regarding Point 1) and parts of your second paragraph:

Personally i do believe Hana isn't the same person she was when she entered the club. Although her changes so far may have been minor, partly due her inherent resistance.
There is also the question in which way changes happen, are they steady and linear over time, or are they accelerating over time like visualized in this graph:

Spoiler: Two possible paths of change

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Again -personally- i am inclined to go with the red variant, there are quite a few systems in nature on which we can't observe much change over a relatively long amount of time after they came under pressure, but when they have been stripped of their ability to resist, this change happens very fast.

I would also argue that from these three, gaslighting, 'brainwashing' and exposure to unusual behaviour she experienced only the last one in her first year. And i am quite sure it already left a mark on her, because i believe she is already much more compliant with the workings of the club than she was in the beginning. I can only imagine how upset she was, when she learned of her work uniform required for barkeeping. I believe that was a sight to behold, and now she is wearing it quite comfortable already.

The gaslighting has only just begun, the talk about her future influence on the club with Kathleen and later Edwin serve as an example, and the effects are yet to be seen. I should probably note, that i don't see the whole spectrum of techniques of gaslighting applied to her, but instead particularly the one in which she is being accused of, or better coaxed into the inaccurate perception of reality or incorrect assessment of reality regarding the club and her future.

Although i don't see signs of actual brainwashing at the moment, there are already conditions which would ease the application of those techniques, primarily her relative small social circle. Cut her off from her mother and her few friends, and you restrict her social interactions effectively to the club. After that you can work on her for real. I don't say it's easy, but doable.

And please remember, one doesn't need to use the full scale of one of those, but you can pick techniques from all those three and work with which is applicable in Hanas case.




Regarding Point 2) from your first paragraph and Point 1) from the second: she is Augusts' daughter
This one protects her only so far, as physical harm or very rough psychological treatment is involved. However we have to keep in mind, that August actually agrees with the notion to get Hana comfortable with this business, he wants to change her in this regard, and therefore would only oppose extreme measures and will probably even partake in less violent or invasive ones.
The moment August basically blackmailed Hana into the club it became clear that he hasn't her best interests in mind, but rather tried to serve his own needs and wants. Or tried to meet his own wants with something he believes to be in her own interest also. This doesn't mean he doesn't kind of love her, probably, yet it's a shitty behaviour nonetheless.

2) She is now rich.
No she isn't. She can't go to her bank and plunder her account for thousands of dollars and book the next flight to Rio or pay for her mothers medical bills herself. In theory she is now a co-owner of the club, but completely by grace of the three old ones. If they refuse to pay her out or to transfer her fair share in actual money, she can't do anything about it.

And last but not least sexworking:
I didn't necessarily want to imply that Hana is doing the sexwork (although both Chuck and August were awfully comfortable when Kathleen had to do it, so obviously being an owner doesn't provide too much protection), but i am not so sure if August would have too much qualms with it.
Afterall it's the families business, there are quite a few pornstars who became porn-producers later and there are a lot of prostitutes who later run a brothel as 'madame'. I can't say how wicked August is, but Hanas mother was a pornstarlet and/or prostitute, so if Hana continues her mothers profession, this could be seen by him as kind of 'passing the baton' and learning about the business from both sides.

However i do believe sexworking isn't only affecting the porn actor or prostitute, but also the pimp and the crew involved in porn.
We already stated that for instance a low empathy with prostitutes is kind of a necessary job requirement for any pimp. So a pimp needs to get rid of overly compassionate feelings with his girls, else it would impact his job performance negatively.
August has indeed already given a nice example of this, when he ordered a sick girl back to work.

Same is valid for porn, imagine following scene:
A particularly rough anal shoot is going on already for like two hours, but the director 'needs' some more footage. The actress starts complaining about how her butt is getting sore, to which the director replies: "Someone get her more lube!"
How many -if any- crew members do you think will step forward and say: "Hey man, i think she has enough, let her go already."
My guess would be that in 99% of all cases they will keep quiet and someone instead is fetching the lube. Simply because they have seen that already many times, and it is how it is: part of the business. Get used to it or drop out.

To conclude i'd like to say, that i believe Hanas internal defenses are under attack already for a quite long time, and every day chips away a bit, wearing them down. So far we haven't seen much impact on her, but these attacks have increased considerably in power recently and will probably increase even further in the near future, so i am not sure how much more she can take.
Edwin will play a crucial role, when he decides to help her to reinforce her defense or if he willingly or unknowingly joins the attack on them.

P.S.
I don't believe 'brainwashing' is a good term for the methods used in changing personality and behavioural patterns, but it serves it's purpose without the need to get into too much detail, because most people have a rough understanding of what is meant by it. And like always every single one of those techniques deserve a more elaborated discussion, but i tried to keep it short.

Hi selberdreher , Grüße!
Like always you make some very interesting points in your post and it can be one possible scenario of corrupting Han, but I think you look at it from the "worst case" point of view.
Hana has quite strong protection through August, which becomes rather clear if you play the Hana path. While August tells us in a conversation that he is not a good person (he has at least quite some selfreflexion others lack), it is obvious that he loves Hana. At the beginning, when August returned into Hana´s life, I too am convinced that it was mainly August trying to preserve/create a legacy, getting to know Hana was more of a "side quest" for him.

But that has visibly changed. He loves his daughter now, August visits her concerts in secret (something he would hardly do if just his legacy was in his mind), he let many of Hana´s "rebellions" slide and you gain points with August if you rip the slimy school director a new one when he insults Hana on the first weekend. August becomes additionally quite philosophical about if he is doing the right thing getting Hana involved with the business.
It is also telling that Kath and Warren when discussing Hana agree more or less that only by circumventing August they can corrupt her.

As for Kath having to become part of the show with Veronica is less of the owners of PC are unprotected, but it was clearly the first time something like that happened and it only happened because of the uncarefully phrased "rules" of the first exhibition. That Kath agreed is more to the point that a business like that obeys much more on a reliability of the stated rules than normal businesses.

 

[selberdreher]

Hi @selberdreher , Grüße!
Like always you make some very interesting points in your post and it can be one possible scenario of corrupting Han, but I think you look at it from the "worst case" point of view.

Hey Turret, glad to see you */wave!

Well, of course those are a bit the worst case scenarios.
I just tried to bring up some factors which may be involved, if Hana is actually changing in a drastic and very fast paced way, which was deemed quasi-impossible by my fellow disputant axeafxas, who is -as i believe- generally spoken correct in their belief that normally personality and behavioural changes take rather a long time.

I tried to show, that contrary to the normal pace in which changes happen, there are indeed mechanics available to speed up this process considerably. Do i wish for them to be implemented? No, not necessarily, don't get me wrong there.

However i do already see signs of them ingame, on which our author could build a believeable and realistic corruption arc, if they choose to do so.

And i'd like to especially point out, that 'a fathers love' is not the same for every father.
Just think of the biblical phrase "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him (Proverbs 13:24)" which took generations of christian fathers literally. Or families in which generations of males served in the military and different wars, they are often proud of their sons who continue this legacy, despite knowing very well how gruesome war is.
Or think of the medieval families of executioners, who were also in the business of torturing people, and - interestingly - had also sometimes the supervision over local prostitutes. Their sons were bound to continue this craft, and were probably not less loved than any other child of this time.

We have already fairly well established, that August considers sexwork as a trade as any other, it's nothing to be ashamed of, if someone is involved in it. And obviously he is very keen on bringing Hana into at least the pimp side of it, and yearns for her acceptance of this side. He knows very well, that Hanas resistance has to be broken to achieve this acceptance and he condones it.

Will he oppose her reprogramming with electroshocks and drugs? Sure.
Will he assist softer methods of persuasion to achieve his goal? Probably.
Augusts 'love' can only protect her, if a) methods are used he will not tolerate and only if b) he is aware of them.

With all that said, the opposite is of course also possible, but -given the context of the game- perhaps more unlikely:
Out of all three old owners, August has probably the highest potential to change for the better, he could finally reach a point where he discards his ways and supports Hana in finding a different life. Let's call that one of the good Hana endings.

 

[CAznable]

We have already fairly well established, that August considers sexwork as a trade as any other, it's nothing to be ashamed of, if someone is involved in it. And obviously he is very keen on bringing Hana into at least the pimp side of it, and yearns for her acceptance of this side. He knows very well, that Hanas resistance has to be broken to achieve this acceptance and he condones it.

I don’t think anyone knows who August is but him, maybe not even him. He has said on occasions that he considers the work to be an ugly job and tough on people. I see him as a man who wants to be closer to his daughter. He says he regrets how he went about doing that as well, however I think breaking Hana into being Him is not something he wants, based on his feelings towards the work. August is enigmatic to say the least, as is Chuck, and it’ll be interesting to see what info we are able to glean about them from the story going forward.

 

[brymont92]

but if you have no interest in seeing Hana content, it might not be worth your bandwidth to download.

Theres people out there who has no interest in Hana? Wow.

 

[KKpotato]

Theres people out there who has no interest in Hana? Wow.

I know right? The world is strange... or the number of gay people is rising perhaps.

 

[Turret]

Hey Turret, glad to see you */wave!

Well, of course those are a bit the worst case scenarios.
I just tried to bring up some factors which may be involved, if Hana is actually changing in a drastic and very fast paced way, which was deemed quasi-impossible by my fellow disputant axeafxas, who is -as i believe- generally spoken correct in their belief that normally personality and behavioural changes take rather a long time.

I tried to show, that contrary to the normal pace in which changes happen, there are indeed mechanics available to speed up this process considerably. Do i wish for them to be implemented? No, not necessarily, don't get me wrong there.

However i do already see signs of them ingame, on which our author could build a believeable and realistic corruption arc, if they choose to do so.

And i'd like to especially point out, that 'a fathers love' is not the same for every father.
Just think of the biblical phrase "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him (Proverbs 13:24)" which took generations of christian fathers literally. Or families in which generations of males served in the military and different wars, they are often proud of their sons who continue this legacy, despite knowing very well how gruesome war is.
Or think of the medieval families of executioners, who were also in the business of torturing people, and - interestingly - had also sometimes the supervision over local prostitutes. Their sons were bound to continue this craft, and were probably not less loved than any other child of this time.

We have already fairly well established, that August considers sexwork as a trade as any other, it's nothing to be ashamed of, if someone is involved in it. And obviously he is very keen on bringing Hana into at least the pimp side of it, and yearns for her acceptance of this side. He knows very well, that Hanas resistance has to be broken to achieve this acceptance and he condones it.

Will he oppose her reprogramming with electroshocks and drugs? Sure.
Will he assist softer methods of persuasion to achieve his goal? Probably.
Augusts 'love' can only protect her, if a) methods are used he will not tolerate and only if b) he is aware of them.

With all that said, the opposite is of course also possible, but -given the context of the game- perhaps more unlikely:
Out of all three old owners, August has probably the highest potential to change for the better, he could finally reach a point where he discards his ways and supports Hana in finding a different life. Let's call that one of the good Hana endings.

Hey again! August should and considering how he acts sometimes, I think he knows that he has Hana´s acceptance of the "family business" already. Hana was never a prude (e.g. playing concerts topless at times) and she has no problem with sex work as a profession at all.
Her problem with the Club is that most of the girls are taken advantage of and occasionally abused. Remember, Hana said to Felicia that she would like all girls working in the Club to be like Feli. Feli is there by her own choice (not coerced like many others) and despite what is going on has some fun doing it.
Hana would have few problems being a head honcho in the Club, if the situation of the girls were better and there were less coercion. That can be done. Especially since August is fond of effective, income generating work. If you can show him something that accomplishes this, he would not be adverse to it. That is good to know for us players no matter if on the "good" or "corrupton" run.

I don’t think anyone knows who August is but him, maybe not even him. He has said on occasions that he considers the work to be an ugly job and tough on people. I see him as a man who wants to be closer to his daughter. He says he regrets how he went about doing that as well, however I think breaking Hana into being Him is not something he wants, based on his feelings towards the work. August is enigmatic to say the least, as is Chuck, and it’ll be interesting to see what info we are able to glean about them from the story going forward.

Hi, I definitely agree with you here!

 

[yanjiejiu]

The second aspect highly at risk is in my opinion her rebellous attitude. I think she was genuinely shocked how her meeting with the mob developed due her disrespect of Otto. She will surely think twice next time if a more appropriate behaviour may be advisable, and if generally a more professional attitude within the club may be necessary, if only to make an impression on her employees and clients.

I think it ain't necessarily about how quickly personalities might changeAs the prologue says, a person's character is not to be taken stock of before being put to test, which is especially true at Hana's age. I personally enjoy seeing it more as a journey of self discovery, in the area of grey, where you are forced to rely on your gut response instead of well-established rules of to-do and not-to-do.
For instance, while Hana's rebellious manner was compromised during that Otto incident, what hits me actually was how she threw her manner away within an instant to save an unkown mob from a not-entirely-undeserved predicament, I felt that this tells me more of how she is, rather than whom she's becoming.
So instead of corruption, that's actually wholesome in my book, I must have been developing amazingly low standards

 

[selberdreher]

I don’t think anyone knows who August is but him, maybe not even him.

Yes, sorry if i came across as all-knowing. This wasn't my intention. I can't read Augusts' mind, that's true.

We have already fairly well established, that August considers sexwork as a trade as any other (...)

Which may be a bit exaggerated, but he is infact very unapologetic about it. So far he isn't drowning in regret about his profession and his past, and his age also hasn't softened his approach in conducting said business.

He has said on occasions that he considers the work to be an ugly job and tough on people. (...) however I think breaking Hana into being Him is not something he wants, based on his feelings towards the work.

Yes, and there are a lot of taxing and ugly jobs out there and someone is getting them done. Which seems to be his mindset regarding his work. He hasn't offered Hana an alternative, like for instance a college education at a music oriented university or helped her setting up a workshop for bikes or found her another job anywhere else or asked her what she likes to do in her future.

He says he regrets how he went about doing that as well

And doubles down on it by elevating her to a co-owner instead of keeping her as a barkeeper on the sidelines, with the prospect of handing down his share (not his money!) to her, which chains her to this place even more.
I tend to judge people by their actions and not their words...

I see him as a man who wants to be closer to his daughter.

Well, he is doing a shitty job then. There are hundreds of thousands of estranged family members who reconnect not by blackmailing their daughters by leveraging the health and well-being of their mothers against them. Instead they choose to reconnect by spending quality time with them and try to learn about their likes and supporting them in pursuing their dreams or help out in a tough situation without an ulterior motive. Which is undisputedly a rocky road to travel, and may also have setbacks. Attending her concert was probably the only thing which resembled a normal approach to reconnect with her.
There is no need to keep her around his work for this.

August is enigmatic to say the least, as is Chuck, and it’ll be interesting to see what info we are able to glean about them from the story going forward.

This. There is still a lot to uncover, and i am looking very much forward to that, just like you.

 

[CAznable]

Yes, sorry if i came across as all-knowing. This wasn't my intention. I can't read Augusts' mind, that's true.

Which may be a bit exaggerated, but he is infact very unapologetic about it. So far he isn't drowning in regret about his profession and his past, and his age also hasn't softened his approach in conducting said business.

Yes, and there are a lot of taxing and ugly jobs out there and someone is getting them done. Which seems to be his mindset regarding his work. He hasn't offered Hana an alternative, like for instance a college education at a music oriented university or helped her setting up a workshop for bikes or found her another job anywhere else or asked her what she likes to do in her future.

And doubles down on it by elevating her to a co-owner instead of keeping her as a barkeeper on the sidelines, with the prospect of handing down his share (not his money!) to her, which chains her to this place even more.
I tend to judge people by their actions and not their words...

Well, he is doing a shitty job then. There are hundreds of thousands of estranged family members who reconnect not by blackmailing their daughters by leveraging the health and well-being of their mothers against them. Instead they choose to reconnect by spending quality time with them and try to learn about their likes and supporting them in pursuing their dreams or help out in a tough situation without an ulterior motive. Which is undisputedly a rocky road to travel, and may also have setbacks. Attending her concert was probably the only thing which resembled a normal approach to reconnect with her.
There is no need to keep her around his work for this.

This. There is still a lot to uncover, and i am looking very much forward to that, just like you.

I have ideas as to why August does what he does, such as having such low faith in people that he couldn’t imagine that his daughter would even consort with him unless he had a leg up; or since he wasn’t involved in her childhood, he feels he must guide her instead of just giving to her, but don’t have anything to substantiate it. As I said, he is very enigmatic lol. No doubt August is messed up in many ways, as I think most of the cast is in some way.

 

[selberdreher]

I think he knows that he has Hana´s acceptance of the "family business" already. Hana was never a prude (e.g. playing concerts topless at times) and she has no problem with sex work as a profession at all.

There are different levels of acceptance.

For instance, if i may bring my own view on sexwork into this discussion, i consider myself relatively open minded regarding this issue. I believe outlawing prostitution is wrong and any adult should be able to work in it, if they choose to do so of their own accord.
I was genuinely shocked as i witnessed for the first time street-hookers in spain on a rainy day as they waited for customers on a rural road, only to conduct their business in a car on some nearby, half-hidden parking places. I feared for their safety and pitied those scantily clothed ladies a lot, as they were freezing their bums off, and i believe brothels are or can be a much more comfortable and safer space to work than that.
So, yes, i accept there is sexwork and i want it to be safe, clean and by free choice.

Do i want to work as a pimp? Overseeing and managing those girls, and provide for their security?
I'd rather not. At least it's not my first choice by a long shot.

Do i want my daughter to work as a prostitute (or in porn)?
Hell no. Call me a hypocrite, but i would go to extreme lengths to prevent that. And i would feel like a failure as a father if it would happen nonetheless (which is quite likely, as daughters tend not to care too much of their fathers' opinions on how to live their lives, after they hit a certain age).
So where is my acceptance now?

Just because there is a certain degree of acceptance by Hana for this in general, doesn't mean she is cool with her fathers work or wants to do it (as a pimp or otherwise) herself. And as you have stated, the current situation at the club is unacceptable for her.
So either the club has to change to meet her current values, or she has to change her values and adapt to the club.

However, i believe we, as players, get significant influence on how this will play out, so there is definitely hope.

 

[selberdreher]

(...)
As the prologue says, a person's character is not to be taken stock of before being put to test, which is especially true at Hana's age. (...)
For instance, while Hana's rebellious manner was compromised during that Otto incident, what hits me actually was how she threw her manner away within an instant to save an unkown mob from a not-entirely-undeserved predicament, I felt that this tells me more of how she is, rather than whom she's becoming.
So instead of corruption, that's actually wholesome in my book (...)

A persons character (or personality, which isn't exactly the same) is an amalgamation out of a very diverse array of traits: there are some commonly examined by psychological tests like introversion vs extroversion (Hana would probably score quite high on the latter), but it encompasses also a persons attitudes, interests, value orientations, self-concepts and how they are expressed.

My emphasis in my last few posts was on the possible change of a persons personality, and less on corruption since this is only a subset of change. Change can happen for the better and worse. It's just in PCs environment the latter is more likely.

I see in your example the expression of Hanas compassion even with an asshole gangster, but if this leads her to suppress her cocky attitude this is also influencing her personality and character. If she decides it's sometimes better to just shut up, this will leave a gaugeable impact for instance on said introversion/extroversion scale and thus altering her personality.

I tried to phrase my thoughts neutral, if i failed that's my fault.
The Hana in my example undergoes three possible changes (compassion gets lower, rebellion gets lower, independence gets lower), she isn't necessarily corrupted she is just different to the current one we know.
I am pretty sure a highly compassionate, slightly rebellious (but not too much, just to keep it spicy) and quite dependent (on the MC) Hana would be seen as a rather desirable and 'wholesome' character by many of the players. Yet again this one would be also different from the current one.

 

[browse_man]

Yes, normally and in general that's true.

However

now this does sadly happen. Put someone under extreme mental and psychological stress, make them fear for their lives or their loved ones, or let them experience some other kind of trauma (like accidents or disasters) and we have plenty of cases in which someone changed their personality completely. Recent examples include soldiers returning from the front, who are barely recognized by their partners. With these conditions met, changes are possible very fast.

Relatively fast changes - which are perhaps more likely to happen in the scope of PC - can be achieved by

• gaslighting: presenting a false narrative, thereby leading a person to doubt their perceptions and become misled, disoriented or distressed. Can also set the stage for the aforementioned causes.
• Drug abuse: with Abels serum as the prime example, but not exclusively since there are other drugs also available at the club.
• Exposure to unusual or disagreeable behaviour, tends to bend a persons own perception towards the behaviour. Experiments have shown, that a lot of people have a hard time to dissent with a common shared opinion inside a closed group.
  You must be registered to see the links
  and the
  You must be registered to see the links
  should suffice as example.
• 'Brainwashing' as practiced in cults and other groups with special interests which are closed off to the general public and therefore can keep their members isolated inside their space of influence. Several conditions are met by the carnation club, and we can single out the technique of '
  You must be registered to see the links
  ' practiced by Kathleen.
• Sexwork: the methods commonly used by pimps to control their victims "closely resemble the brainwashing techniques of terrorists and paranoid cults."
  You must be registered to see the links
  . One ingame example would be Lucy, who is loosing her self-image as a heterosexual, caring mother and married woman really fast at the moment. I could also post some real-life examples who lost their shit incredible fast throughout their 'career'.
• The Taste of Power: the opportunity to exert real power inside the club. I don't think i'll need to cite real-life examples, and we already see the corrupting influence ingame on Edwin. "
  You must be registered to see the links
  "
• any combination or combination of parts of the above, there is no need to concentrate on a single technique. It's also very likely that my list is not exhaustive. These were just the ones i came up with.

So as we can see there is a wide array of possibilities available to change Hanas views, perception, self-image and values, which are of course part of her personality. While her initial disposition towards the club may power up her resilience, she is not invulnerable to those factors, should they be implemented by the club and/or our choices.

I am confident in TD1900s capability to write a consistent and believeable downfall of Hana, if they decide to go down this road.

Damn, I’m the guy that first brought up the idea of Hana’s downfall (the person to whom you replied to replied to) and I gotta say thanks for giving me hope that this could feasibly happen! Corrupting Hana sounds really fun in a fucked up kinda way.

 

[ename144]

Hi selberdreher , Grüße!
Like always you make some very interesting points in your post and it can be one possible scenario of corrupting Han, but I think you look at it from the "worst case" point of view.
Hana has quite strong protection through August, which becomes rather clear if you play the Hana path. While August tells us in a conversation that he is not a good person (he has at least quite some selfreflexion others lack), it is obvious that he loves Hana. At the beginning, when August returned into Hana´s life, I too am convinced that it was mainly August trying to preserve/create a legacy, getting to know Hana was more of a "side quest" for him.

But that has visibly changed. He loves his daughter now, August visits her concerts in secret (something he would hardly do if just his legacy was in his mind), he let many of Hana´s "rebellions" slide and you gain points with August if you rip the slimy school director a new one when he insults Hana on the first weekend. August becomes additionally quite philosophical about if he is doing the right thing getting Hana involved with the business.
It is also telling that Kath and Warren when discussing Hana agree more or less that only by circumventing August they can corrupt her.

As for Kath having to become part of the show with Veronica is less of the owners of PC are unprotected, but it was clearly the first time something like that happened and it only happened because of the uncarefully phrased "rules" of the first exhibition. That Kath agreed is more to the point that a business like that obeys much more on a reliability of the stated rules than normal businesses.

August is a tough nut to crack and I don't think we should get too far ahead of the evidence when discussing his love for Hana. He feels something for her, but there are many kinds of love. August wants a better relationship with Hana, but it's not clear why he wants that, nor is it clear what he would or would not be willing to do to earn that acceptance.

On the why side, his motivation makes a huge difference - even if we assume he isn't malicious. Going to see Hana's concert in secret, for example, plays very differently if you think he wants to learn her tastes to better convince her to see reason (from his point of view) versus if you think he wants to see her while she's happy without embarrassing/offending her. Likewise reflecting if he was right to involve Hana in the Club could be a fear that he's leading her down his own path to damnation, or it could be a concern that she isn't up to task of being a criminal boss. Either way he cares for her, but in some cases that care is as much about him as it is about Hana herself. My gut reaction is that August is being at least partially selfless in his love for Hana, but that may just be wishful thinking.

Similarly, we don't really have a good read on how much August would sacrifice to change Hana's opinion of him. We know he's willing to use Hana's dying mother as leverage and that he'll happily throw money at the problem, but neither of those really cost him much. What if it became clear that shutting down the Carnation Club and living a meager life as an honest man would cause Hana to change her views on him: would he do it? Does he want his daughter to accept him as he is, or would he change his ways if that would make him someone she can admire? Until such a situation comes up all we can do is speculate.

Personally, I don't think August would alter his core tenets for Hana because I think he wants a certain level of validation from her; even if she doesn't approve of his actions, he wants her to accept his reasons for taking them. Of course, one of his core tenets seems to be pragmatism, so I do think he'd be willing to alter any of his lesser tenets if that would do the trick, and he doesn't necessarily have to keep making the same decisions going forward.

Well, he is doing a shitty job then. There are hundreds of thousands of estranged family members who reconnect not by blackmailing their daughters by leveraging the health and well-being of their mothers against them. Instead they choose to reconnect by spending quality time with them and try to learn about their likes and supporting them in pursuing their dreams or help out in a tough situation without an ulterior motive. Which is undisputedly a rocky road to travel, and may also have setbacks. Attending her concert was probably the only thing which resembled a normal approach to reconnect with her.
There is no need to keep her around his work for this.

That would require that Hana agree to spend *any* time with August, and she flat out refused that when he first offered.


August used Hana's mom as leverage so he could get his foot in the door, so to speak. He probably figured it was the only way he'd have a shot at changing her mind, and since Hana already hated him there was nowhere to go but up. Obviously he could have simply continued to help her mom without strings and hope that would eventually bring Hana around, but for whatever reason he was unwilling to take that chance.

Again, I think it all comes back to why August wants to spend time with Hana.

 

[selberdreher]

That would require that Hana agree to spend *any* time with August, and she flat out refused that when he first offered.

Yes, that's why i said

Which is undisputedly a rocky road to travel, and may also have setbacks.

Establishing contact again after someone is estranged to that level is hard.

It would likely require more than one phonecall, because the first couple of attempts are often met with refusal. Much like with abused animals it probably needs a lot of persistent mini-steps to build up trust again and to achieve the willingness to hear him out or probably even better to listen to what she has to say. Which could very well in the beginning be nothing more than accusations and insults from her. After those died down a bit they could start real talking, and from there they could have taken the other steps.
August wasn't really willing (or able?) to take this long and rocky road, instead he subdued her to his will, like probably most other women in his life.

Spoiler: Tangent on how i would have tackled the task

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I like your first four paragraphs in your answer to Turret, there isn't much i could add to your thoughts there.