VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5] [Mutt & Jeff]

[CAznable]

I have a question for TD that came to mind after replaying the whole game in one go.

Spoiler: Is there going to be a TRUE ENDING?

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All of the girls have something that Edwin can relate to in some way. Some think like him, some have a drive like he does, some remind him of his mother, Etc. Every LI has a piece of him. I personally see a lot more of Edwin in Felicia than I do Rose for example.

Very interesting and at the same time sad, because it does indeed seem like maximum toughness isn't just a different flavour of the game, but a suboptimal route compared to minimum toughness and mixed.

Because if there isn't that much gated behind toughness and what there is, is in itself suboptimal for the tough route*, while you also ruin your chances with a couple of the LIs by going the tough route** , but don't gain any extra scenes as compensation, then the entire route seem suboptimal to me. Sure, if you really like Kathleen and/or the flavour of the tough route (or dislike Rosalind and Veronica and perhaps even Hana), it might still be worth it, but if you're neutral regarding the flavour difference and the LIs, then the minimum or mixed route seems to be the better choice, because it gives you more options without costing you anything.

That, to me, seem to be a suboptimal strategy for a game that's all about depraved shit extraordinaire. To bad the game is so fucking good anyway...

* In the sense that you loose more than you gain by doing the things that require high toughness and not doing the things that require low toughness.
** Compared to just one of the LIs if you go the non tough route.

Caveat: I'm of course just talking about what we have at the present, things might change later on, but if anything, as I've pointed out, I feel that the last update rather compounds that minimum toughness is really the "right" route and if the "minimum toughness will never be punished with fewer scenes" is to hold true throughout the game, I think it might be difficult to balance things moving forward.

I don’t think this game is so analytical that “suboptimal” applies to it. It’s not just stats that influence the game. Edwin is ultimately his own character, we can try to shape him, but cannot mold him into the arbitrary cookie-cutter shape that we want. That is not to say that our choices ( and the world around him) do not influence him. Edwin is more Geralt of Rivia and less Commander Shepard. I think this update is a real litmus test for Edwin going forward, especially with some of the ending choices that we can make.
Also Toughness does not have to equal Asshole. A tough person is by no means an asshole.

 

[justaklimts]

Just finished Ch3.4 yesterday and I'm left with a void like any other crazy good shows/games :c. Do the devs have a mental roadmap for how many chapters there'll be in total? Just so I can prep myself for the months/years to come :d

Also wondering what inspirations the writer used when coming up with Felicia's character?

 

[ramvivat]

Just finished Ch3.4 yesterday and I'm left with a void like any other crazy good shows/games :c. Do the devs have a mental roadmap for how many chapters there'll be in total? Just so I can prep myself for the months/years to come :d

how your day ends?
did you can fuck Mina? or only can sleep on their laps?

if you chose to invite Veronika home to spend the night - did you fall asleep on the couch embracing?
why I ask - I just got such an end to the day. but maybe there is an alternate ending for this episode... And yes, who won the competition? I have Rosalind prevailed. two "draft mares" (Veronica and Felicia) - for some reason lost. and the "cow" - to my surprise, came to the finish line with a victory.

 

[justaklimts]

how your day ends?
did you can fuck Mina? or only can sleep on their laps?

if you chose to invite Veronika home to spend the night - did you fall asleep on the couch embracing?
why I ask - I just got such an end to the day. but maybe there is an alternate ending for this episode... And yes, who won the competition? I have Rosalind prevailed. two "draft mares" (Veronica and Felicia) - for some reason lost. and the "cow" - to my surprise, came to the finish line with a victory.

I didn't have the option to invite Veronica over for some reason hmm. I did go to Mina's for the night and fell asleep after some heart to heart. Don't think there's an option or drive to do anything horndoggy after the update ends in a down note.

What kind of conversation did you have with Veronica after she came over?

 

[sabadongelov]

I don’t think this game is so analytical that “suboptimal” applies to it. It’s not just stats that influence the game. Edwin is ultimately his own character, we can try to shape him, but cannot mold him into the arbitrary cookie-cutter shape that we want. That is not to say that our choices ( and the world around him) do not influence him. Edwin is more Geralt of Rivia and less Commander Shepard. I think this update is a real litmus test for Edwin going forward, especially with some of the ending choices that we can make.

I'm afraid I don't understand much of your comment, but I'll say this: If my goal with playing PC is having Rosalind become Edwins girlfriend at the end, and I choose a route that makes that impossible, then that route is suboptimal in regard to my goal of having Edwin and Rosalind end up together. Similarly, if I want as many potential romancing partners at the end as possible, as I haven't decided which LI I want Edwin to go for, then a route that only make three LI available as romancing partners at the end is suboptimal compared to a route that make five LI available as romancing partners at the end. Ceteris paribus, everything else being equal.

Also Toughness does not have to equal Asshole. A tough person is by no means an asshole.

You're right, toughness is not supposed to equal asshole, but much like Renegade in Mass Effect in practise mainly worked as "bad guy alternative", toughness in PC seem to in practise mainly work as "asshole alternative". Mainly is of course not always and things might change in the future, who knows?

 

[CAznable]

I'm afraid I don't understand much of your comment, but I'll say this: If my goal with playing PC is having Rosalind become Edwins girlfriend at the end, and I choose a route that makes that impossible, then that route is suboptimal in regard to my goal of having Edwin and Rosalind end up together. Similarly, if I want as many potential romancing partners at the end as possible, as I haven't decided which LI I want Edwin to go for, then a route that only make three LI available as romancing partners at the end is suboptimal compared to a route that make five LI available as romancing partners at the end. Ceteris paribus, everything else being equal.

Not really? If your goal is to get with Rose and you fail to get on Rose’s path, then you’re not doing it suboptimally, you just didn’t do it right. Not trying to be pedantic nor rude, just saying that you either do or don’t in PC. For an example, to get Rose’s affection option in the current update, you need 25 points. No more, no less. If you are going for her route you probably have more, but if you have less, you don’t get it. There is no suboptimal choice, 25 points or more is all optimal. Less than that is, well, failure.

Also to your second point here, I assume you are talking about toughness. You can get any girl in PC (currently) while having a high toughness score (higher than 20 points). Any Edwin is good for the ladies. Do the choices each girl likes always line up with the toughness gains? No. However I’m willing to bet that you could get enough points with every individual girl to start their route, while remaining in the high toughness threshold.

You're right, toughness is not supposed to equal asshole, but much like Renegade in Mass Effect in practise mainly worked as "bad guy alternative", toughness in PC seem to in practise mainly work as "asshole alternative". Mainly is of course not always and things might change in the future, who knows?

I’ve always seen toughness as more of a dominant option, than an asshole one. Maybe it’s up to interpretation. Not to say that some choices in which you gain toughness aren’t asshole moves, but there’s also choices where I wouldn’t say they are asshole-ish at all. Do you want Felicia to blow you after you eat her out at Ian’s apartment? You gain toughness, but I wouldn’t call it an asshole move. That’s probably why TD made the thresholds to begin with, it’s a general idea of some of the actions Edwin has made. Can a Tough person do good? Can a nice person do bad? I’d say so.

Hope this all made sense.

 

[selberdreher]

I'm afraid I don't understand much of your comment, but I'll say this: If my goal with playing PC is having Rosalind become Edwins girlfriend at the end, and I choose a route that makes that impossible, then that route is suboptimal in regard to my goal of having Edwin and Rosalind end up together. Similarly, if I want as many potential romancing partners at the end as possible, as I haven't decided which LI I want Edwin to go for, then a route that only make three LI available as romancing partners at the end is suboptimal compared to a route that make five LI available as romancing partners at the end. Ceteris paribus, everything else being equal.
(...)

sabadongelov, i dont even know where to start.
The main problem is that you set faulty premises about PC and its possible routes, it is like you would say PC is a car, a car should have four tyres, this car (PC) has three tyres and therefore it is suboptimal or like you are watching Braveheart (the movie) and think a martian attack on those pesky englishmen would be even better.

The first faulty (and please notice, i dont use wrong here) premise is the one about optimal paths. In one of your former posts you defined optimal as

if we assume that optimization = as many sex scenes and relationship alternatives as possible

which i think

a) is a very narrow-minded approach in general​

and​

b) would be valid if applied to game with clear divide between a "Corruption/BadGuy" and a "Love/GoodGuy" path. If you would find out that the LovePath has three scenes, whereas the CorruptionPath has seven and if you mix up those Paths you get none, your assumption would be reasonable. PC is clearly not one of these Games.​

While you are of course free to define what is optimal to you, let me explain why i think it your definition is debatable:

Lets say you love creampies and pregnancy but hate sharing and gangbangs, lets further say the three sex scenes on the LovePath end with creampies and finally in a pregnancy, but the seven sex scenes in the CorruptionPath are about training her with spitroasts, in which you are the one getting the BJ and the other male finishes in her, to finally be able to pimp her out in a gangbang in which you dont participate. Which Route would be now optimal for you?​

In my opinion it is less about quantity and more about quality, in the sense of are you satisfied and/or happy with your playthrough?

Second faulty premise. If you expect to score with your "LI"s regardless of your approach (your choices), you do implicitly vote for either meaningless choices or "LI"s without any personality or both. Meaningfull choices are trade-offs, they do and should lock you out of a specific content. Every NPC with just a bit of personality has to have likes and dislikes, and therefore should welcome or despise different decisions you take based on their personality. Thankfully PC has a colourfull cast with very distinctive personalities and choices that matter.

The third (this time really) wrong premise is about that our five main girls are "LoveInterests", because for the umpteenth time, they dont exist to serve as waifus for a undefined, self-insert, faceless MC in a dating-sim. If anything they are potential romanceable partners, girlfriends, sugar-mommys or wives (who knows? MyEdwin will take Hana at her word) for Edwin, an equally well-defined character and they all serve not us, the players, but their role inside the narration. Our role is merely to shape Edwins story with them to our liking, but always limited by the boundaries of that narration. Of course you can have your favourites, we all do, but they owe us nothing.

The fourth (and again) wrong premise is, that we are able to build a harem; it was stated quite clearly by TD1900 in this post (which i also link again now for the XXth time) that there will be no harem ending, but rather a (depending on your playthrough) a more or less romantic conclusion with one of the girls. Of course you can hope our author will change their mind, but with roughly 40% to 50% (there are four exhibitions) of the game done, it is probably time for you to steel yourself to let - little by little - some of the girls go, and concentrate your efforts on your favourites.

So if you are afraid to loose Hana, if you continue with your preferred playstyle, you should consider to either change your style or be prepared for the consequences. I think no possibility is at the moment completely off the table, and perhaps it would be a nice challenge and very satisfying playthrough for you, to pull off a romantic ending with Hana, in a toughness focused run against all odds.
Just try it and as i said before "Play it smart!".

 

[selberdreher]

However I’m willing to bet that you could get enough points with every individual girl to start their route, while remaining in the high toughness threshold.

You win that bet, because i have already proven it here.

 

[camube]

This is by far the game that hooked me the most and I'm really glad the devs told us the train is not stopping regardless of patreon numbers.

 

[sabadongelov]

Not really? If your goal is to get with Rose and you fail to get on Rose’s path, then you’re not doing it suboptimally, you just didn’t do it right. Not trying to be pedantic nor rude, just saying that you either do or don’t in PC. For an example, to get Rose’s affection option in the current update, you need 25 points. No more, no less. If you are going for her route you probably have more, but if you have less, you don’t get it. There is no suboptimal choice, 25 points or more is all optimal. Less than that is, well, failure.

Not rude, but I would say a bit pedantic to argue semantics. You're probably right that suboptimal is a suboptimal (pun intentended ) word when describing absolute failure, but the choice of words is not really the point of my argument.

Also to your second point here, I assume you are talking about toughness. You can get any girl in PC (currently) while having a high toughness score (higher than 20 points). Any Edwin is good for the ladies. Do the choices each girl likes always line up with the toughness gains? No. However I’m willing to bet that you could get enough points with every individual girl to start their route, while remaining in the high toughness threshold.

It is possible to achieve both maximum toughness and get enough affinity from for instance Veronica and Rosalind as not to lock out any scenes as has been shown by selberdreher above, but that would require you to utilize a walkthrough and a calculator and/or excel spreadsheet, to calculate the optimum route, while at the same time playing for points according to that optimum route rather than roleplaying what feels reasonable given the kind of character you're aiming for Edwin to be. If we're going to cheat anyway, I think I'd rather use a cheat mod to bolster numbers, that way I can still roleplay to my hearts content.

I’ve always seen toughness as more of a dominant option, than an asshole one. Maybe it’s up to interpretation.

The devs call the high toughness route (21 - 30 points) "the asshole route".

Not to say that some choices in which you gain toughness aren’t asshole moves, but there’s also choices where I wouldn’t say they are asshole-ish at all.

Yeah, as I said, some toughness choices aren't asshole choices, but a lot of them are.

Do you want Felicia to blow you after you eat her out at Ian’s apartment? You gain toughness, but I wouldn’t call it an asshole move. That’s probably why TD made the thresholds to begin with, it’s a general idea of some of the actions Edwin has made. Can a Tough person do good? Can a nice person do bad? I’d say so.

No, you don't. You get the toughness point for calling her a bitch, a cunt and a vapid whore while throat fucking her. I'd call that an asshole move.

 

[sabadongelov]

sabadongelov, i dont even know where to start.
The main problem is that you set faulty premises about PC and its possible routes, it is like you would say PC is a car, a car should have four tyres, this car (PC) has three tyres and therefore it is suboptimal or like you are watching Braveheart (the movie) and think a martian attack on those pesky englishmen would be even better.

The first faulty (and please notice, i dont use wrong here) premise is the one about optimal paths. In one of your former posts you defined optimal as
which i think

a) is a very narrow-minded approach in general​

and​

b) would be valid if applied to game with clear divide between a "Corruption/BadGuy" and a "Love/GoodGuy" path. If you would find out that the LovePath has three scenes, whereas the CorruptionPath has seven and if you mix up those Paths you get none, your assumption would be reasonable. PC is clearly not one of these Games.​

While you are of course free to define what is optimal to you, let me explain why i think it your definition is debatable:

Lets say you love creampies and pregnancy but hate sharing and gangbangs, lets further say the three sex scenes on the LovePath end with creampies and finally in a pregnancy, but the seven sex scenes in the CorruptionPath are about training her with spitroasts, in which you are the one getting the BJ and the other male finishes in her, to finally be able to pimp her out in a gangbang in which you dont participate. Which Route would be now optimal for you?​

In my opinion it is less about quantity and more about quality, in the sense of are you satisfied and/or happy with your playthrough?

Second faulty premise. If you expect to score with your "LI"s regardless of your approach (your choices), you do implicitly vote for either meaningless choices or "LI"s without any personality or both. Meaningfull choices are trade-offs, they do and should lock you out of a specific content. Every NPC with just a bit of personality has to have likes and dislikes, and therefore should welcome or despise different decisions you take based on their personality. Thankfully PC has a colourfull cast with very distinctive personalities and choices that matter.

The third (this time really) wrong premise is about that our five main girls are "LoveInterests", because for the umpteenth time, they dont exist to serve as waifus for a undefined, self-insert, faceless MC in a dating-sim. If anything they are potential romanceable partners, girlfriends, sugar-mommys or wives (who knows? MyEdwin will take Hana at her word) for Edwin, an equally well-defined character and they all serve not us, the players, but their role inside the narration. Our role is merely to shape Edwins story with them to our liking, but always limited by the boundaries of that narration. Of course you can have your favourites, we all do, but they owe us nothing.

The fourth (and again) wrong premise is, that we are able to build a harem; it was stated quite clearly by TD1900 in this post (which i also link again now for the XXth time) that there will be no harem ending, but rather a (depending on your playthrough) a more or less romantic conclusion with one of the girls. Of course you can hope our author will change their mind, but with roughly 40% to 50% (there are four exhibitions) of the game done, it is probably time for you to steel yourself to let - little by little - some of the girls go, and concentrate your efforts on your favourites.

So if you are afraid to loose Hana, if you continue with your preferred playstyle, you should consider to either change your style or be prepared for the consequences. I think no possibility is at the moment completely off the table, and perhaps it would be a nice challenge and very satisfying playthrough for you, to pull off a romantic ending with Hana, in a toughness focused run against all odds.
Just try it and as i said before "Play it smart!".

I will have to get back to you on this one, and it might be a while because I'm going away. I'll just shortly add the following:

1. If we base our definition of what is optimal/suboptimal on subjetice taste, then it becomes impossible to talk about better or worse routes. Even a game over can be an optimal route for someone who doesn't want to play anymore.

2. Trade offs are fine and the way I would go about it myself, but as I understand it, there is not to be any trade off if you go for the low toughness route. Logically there should be, in the form of fewer sex scenes and then that would be the trade off for the fewer romance options in the high toughness route.

3. I'm not arguing for a harem resolution. I think I've said that a couple of times now.

 

[CAznable]

Not rude, but I would say a bit pedantic to argue semantics. You're probably right that suboptimal is a suboptimal (pun intentended ) word when describing absolute failure, but the choice of words is not really the point of my argument.

My reading of your statement that I replied to is that you are claiming that High toughness is suboptimal, when it just isn't, it's just different. You can play Edwin how you want, and in the future there may be some things you can't access on both sides of the spectrum. That's choice and consequence. While PC does not yet have "routes" as used in most JVNs, the endings will be largely exclusive to your chosen girl (plus some club focused endings). That's why I'm making saves for each, and some more for stats.

It is possible to achieve both maximum toughness and get enough affinity from for instance Veronica and Rosalind as not to lock out any scenes as has been shown by selberdreher above, but that would require you to utilize a walkthrough and a calculator and/or excel spreadsheet, to calculate the optimum route, while at the same time playing for points according to that optimum route rather than roleplaying what feels reasonable given the kind of character you're aiming for Edwin to be. If we're going to cheat anyway, I think I'd rather use a cheat mod to bolster numbers, that way I can still roleplay to my hearts content.

But it is possible, you claimed that is was not. You said high toughness would "only make three LI available as romancing partners at the end". That's why I replied to it.

No, you don't. You get the toughness point for calling her a bitch, a cunt and a vapid whore while throat fucking her. I'd call that an asshole move.

My mistake, been a while since I looked at those stats, misremembered.

 

[ename144]

I will have to get back to you on this one, and it might be a while because I'm going away. I'll just shortly add the following:

1. If we base our definition of what is optimal/suboptimal on subjetice taste, then it becomes impossible to talk about better or worse routes. Even a game over can be an optimal route for someone who doesn't want to play anymore.

2. Trade offs are fine and the way I would go about it myself, but as I understand it, there is not to be any trade off if you go for the low toughness route. Logically there should be, in the form of fewer sex scenes and then that would be the trade off for the fewer romance options in the high toughness route.

3. I'm not arguing for a harem resolution. I think I've said that a couple of times now.

I don't think I understand your concern. If you wish to grade "better or worse routes" you're always going to need a walkthough (or effectively make one yourself). That's necessary to see and evaluate all the options. Otherwise you're just picking a route and seeing what happens.

I also don't understand how more romance options could correspond to fewer sex scenes. With whom would the MC be having sex on the route that has fewer options? Just add a lot of scenes with side-girls to run up the scene count? That seems like a weak prize.

Personally, I think the goal of a high-Toughness route shouldn't be a lot of empty sex scenes, it should be focusing on material that emphasizes the MC's toughness (and visa versa). That's especially true because I'm not sure PC is really structured in terms of Tough/non-Tough paths. The MC gets some mandatory scenes with Club business, then the other scenes are generally gated by paths for the various girls. Those scenes can have slight variations depending on the MC's Toughness, but they aren't completely gated by it. Even something like accepting Kat's gift is a choice a non-Tough MC can make (though he probably wouldn't).

I think that's a good thing because it keeps the emphasis on the characters rather than a 'morality system.'

 

[NoobMaster30678]

Does the gallery unlocker still work? Cuz the unlock scenes bottom didnt show up in gallery.

 

[CaptainRishard]

I'm still salty about the fact you can't play people on the down low. For example Killian, Kathleen, and Felicia could all be asked for money for Rosalind and they would never bring it up with anyone else. Here's the details.

Killian wants to have a spit roast with Rose for 5k. Provided you can get Rose to agree to that you could also technically have asked for 5k before that from Felicia to go with her somewhere. These two would never mention this shit to each other. Then to boot you could go to Kathleen with the right perk and say it's a rallying moment getting her to pay 5k. Now the thing about Killian is he will likely give the money to you or Rose directly. If not automatically you could easily convince him. Felicia gives the money to you directly. Kathleen presumably pays Rose or her loan shark directly. That's still 10k more though that you could raise for Rose to pay towards the 23k debt nearly halving it with a bit of cleverness.

Now I'm not saying the MC is a weak beta bitch because he really isn't. But I will say he fancies himself a clever man and he should be playing as many games with these people as he can get away with if it benefits him. He already is technically. He just seems to have missed this opportunity to make Rose fall for him that much more.

 

[Idontplay]

Did you never miss an opportunity in your real life? It can happen in the real life, so we can suppose it happened to Edwin.

 

[Edge Sangral]

I'm so confused, I want to choose a walkthrough mod for this game and clicked on the one from LunarMist, but in the text LunarMist links to a completely different Walkthrough mod...... so, should I not use LunarMists one and go to the other one? Whats the point of that?

 

[stahalle]

I'm so confused, I want to choose a walkthrough mod for this game and clicked on the one from LunarMist, but in the text LunarMist links to a completely different Walkthrough mod...... so, should I not use LunarMists one and go to the other one? Whats the point of that?

as i see it the mod shows you what points you get for the answers in game. it doesn´t show you in what direction you go with these answers. the walkthrough that is linked is a pdf that shows what actions go to what outcome.

 

[raggedsunbeam]

I see a lot of references to toughness points... where can I see my score? Do i need a mod?

 

[DirtyMario]

I see a lot of references to toughness points... where can I see my score? Do i need a mod?

IIRC you go to the ingame menu, click on Statistics and then on the picture of MC and Killian.