VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5] [Mutt & Jeff]

[TD1900]

I don't want to play the part of the prophet, or the mind reader, with the authors and their narrative... But if I had to guess, I'd say this is a matter of progression and escalation. The Club patrons have access to the Club "employees" as they see fit, more or less, while the Carnations are there for a different reason - for the patrons, the "games" themselves are all in all a matter of vanity and titillation. As TD said, Club patrons aren't allowed direct interaction for the most part. It's very likely that we will see something different in the future - and I'm willing to bet this will have narrative and emotional impact.

You (and True Degenerate) pretty much hit the nail on the head. Kathy is cultivating the girl's appeal, and if the patrons could freely have a go at the Carnations whenever they desired, the designation between Carnation and house girl becomes meaningless. Most patrons (except Isaac ) have access to sex whenever they desire, both outside and inside the club, and what the exhibitions are offering is a curated experience. Kathleen is bringing the audience along for the ride as she unravels and polishes the girls. She's marketing them, so when a patron might finally have access at a select point or even post-competition, he'll be extremely keen about it.

I understand if that feels contrived, though. Kathleen deferring to the player as much as she does, with the player character being able to indirectly dictate the results of week 1 and 2, is just prime gamification - and as I've discovered, limits the design space while tripling the work.

 

[Biscardone]

Dalia is sexy as absolute fuck and is motherly and sweet. She's definitely not doing this because she likes it. I for one would love to find a way to free her from her obligations but that doesn't seem likely. If there were a way she could stop and be free I would scoop her up in a fucking heartbeat.

You know, the appeal of a game like Pale Carnations to me is also the fact that even with its tropes it manages to be semi-realistic (a writer would call it "verisimilitude"), and it's food for thought. I'll relay a somewhat personal story.
Many years ago, in the city I live in there was an annual trade show related to the world of sex and porn (something akin to

You must be registered to see the links

, for the sake of example). My brother, being in his twenties back then, went there a couple of times. In the last year he went, he met a porn actress also in her twenties and, being the social butterfly he is, he chatted her up - and they immediately hit it off. They started hanging out, and a couple of weeks after they were ready to start a relationship. Except my brother, being young and naive, had the brilliant idea to tell my parents. As soon as they discovered her profession, they practically blew up and out of control. They had a lot of "emergency serious talks" with him, some more reasonable than others (from "her profession is risky and her future uncertain" to "your reputation will plummet alongside hers") - in the end, they posed a "soft ultimatum", saying that they would never "approve" of their relationship - unless she left her profession. Yep. The fact is, they managed to instill so many doubts in him, that he met with her and ended their relationship. They didn't meet ever again. He told me: "She just stood there and cried. I rarely felt such an asshole in my entire life".
Now, the point of this story is not about my brother or my parents; but playing Pale Carnation brought back these memories. And the lesson, assuming there is a lesson, could be: people in the sex industry, even if uncoerced, have it hard. Usually the reaction of other people when approaching them revolves around the extremes: either they are perceived as human filth, or misguided little angels to be saved. Oh, by the way, I don't mean to be preachy, just - as I've said - food for thought.

 

[BrockLanders]

You know, the appeal of a game like Pale Carnations to me is also the fact that even with its tropes it manages to be semi-realistic (a writer would call it "verisimilitude"), and it's food for thought. I'll relay a somewhat personal story.
Many years ago, in the city I live in there was an annual trade show related to the world of sex and porn (something akin to

You must be registered to see the links

, for the sake of example). My brother, being in his twenties back then, went there a couple of times. In the last year he went, he met a porn actress also in her twenties and, being the social butterfly he is, he chatted her up - and they immediately hit it off. They started hanging out, and a couple of weeks after they were ready to start a relationship. Except my brother, being young and naive, had the brilliant idea to tell my parents. As soon as they discovered her profession, they practically blew up and out of control. They had a lot of "emergency serious talks" with him, some more reasonable than others (from "her profession is risky and her future uncertain" to "your reputation will plummet alongside hers") - in the end, they posed a "soft ultimatum", saying that they would never "approve" of their relationship - unless she left her profession. Yep. The fact is, they managed to instill so many doubts in him, that he met with her and ended their relationship. They didn't meet ever again. He told me: "She just stood there and cried. I rarely felt such an asshole in my entire life".
Now, the point of this story is not about my brother or my parents; but playing Pale Carnation brought back these memories. And the lesson, assuming there is a lesson, could be: people in the sex industry, even if uncoerced, have it hard. Usually the reaction of other people when approaching them revolves around the extremes: either they are perceived as human filth, or misguided little angels to be saved. Oh, by the way, I don't mean to be preachy, just - as I've said - food for thought.

The first thing I think of when I read about happenstances like your brother's story and Dalia in Pale Carnations is the story of

You must be registered to see the links

. Very pretty, extremely smart, and trapped tragically. At least she's instilling her humanity in her daughter. It makes me happy to read that after not checking in on her story for a bit.

 

[Takkatakka]

I understand if that feels contrived, though. Kathleen deferring to the player as much as she does, with the player character being able to indirectly dictate the results of week 1 and 2, is just prime gamification - and as I've discovered, limits the design space while tripling the work.

I never thought about that...but yes, that is actually a case where we as players might not even expect to be allowed to make decisions.

 

[Biscardone]

The first thing I think of when I read about happenstances like your brother's story and Dalia in Pale Carnations is the story of

You must be registered to see the links

. Very pretty, extremely smart, and trapped tragically. At least she's instilling her humanity in her daughter. It makes me happy to read that after not checking in on her story for a bit.

Thanks for the article! By the way, I've followed some of the links from Wikipedia, like the one in which they talk about her and her daughter signing in at Dixie State University altoghether... And of course, in the comments there are some assholes remarking she's a slut, and insulting her daughter too for good measure.
Case in point. You've done porn in the past? You and your whole family will bear the mark of shame forever. It doesn't matter if you're a good or a bad person, or right inbetween - PORN.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Not forced or unbelievable at all. The conflict of interest through betting, and maintaining the integrity of the show are strong justifications. In addition, many of the events didn't involve fucking, and many were curated shows not conducive to audience involvement. Vera's spider event is the closest scenario which could warrant audience involvement, but it not doing so is also justified story wise. Finally, it's an AVN, why should the main character be sidelined during the main events?

Pre-1: Vibrator endurance test between Lucy and Vera.
Pre-2: Vera's cum chalice.
Pre-3: Lucy/Vera competition.

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1st: Service round.

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2nd: Double dildo round.
3rd: Bukkake - audience was involved.
4th: Vera's shame.

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5th: Felicia's shame.

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6th: Rose's shame.

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The thousands who visit "performance artists". The millions who visit strip clubs, or cabaret. Kathy's shows are much better. There's specialized IRL counterparts too, like donkey shows, where people pay to see whores get fucked by donkeys and horses. It's mostly unproven but I think one case went through court and there were plenty of videos on Luxure where you could see it yourself. The allure of the Carnations show isn't about fucking. Besides, there's club girls for that.



Joe choked Harper unconscious. Frank whipped/bottle insertion'd Serena out of commision for a month. Letting the dirty old bastards fuck the carnations is a business risk and liability, it can jeopardize the show. Besides, some mystery, rarity, and elusiveness keeps desire afire. Just look at Samson with Vera, Thomas with Rose, or many dirty old bastards with Kathy.

I don't understand why everyone wants to see the dirty old bastards fucking the main girls, but TD hasn't been actively avoiding it at all. A suitable scenario hasn't arrived yet. When it did, like the bukkake, it happened. This year's show doesn't have to be the same, but even going by the image of the previous Carnations for precedent, the audience fucking scene was in "Exhibition 3", so everything's consistent in terms of timeline.

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Regarding the performance artists, I think thats people who just would not visit a prostitute. The donkey thing is of course a humiliation you cant do yourself. But to think that rich men with little morals would prefer to watch girls they visibly desire getting fucked by others over fucking them themselves is not how I see it.

Keeping the interest up by not letting the patrons fuck the carnations is a very good argument. And the betting and integrity of it is one as well. But if the patrons will not be allowed to fuck the carnations at all after the competition, this would be imo unbelievable for such a scenario as here, since there would not be a good reason for that. Then it would imo be mostly a narrative thing to spare players the pain. Which is a reasonable choice for a game which people play for enjoyment.

But aside from all that, doing it like its done so far is fine anyway if it makes the game more interesting or enjoyable - and like I wrote somewhere earlier, I prefer if the MC sees action instead of watching. For me, the biggest flaw of the game in regards to my personal taste is the MCs lack of power and being a lil puppet for everyone - so getting at least some action as a puppet is still more enjoyable than no action.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Dalia is sexy as absolute fuck and is motherly and sweet. She's definitely not doing this because she likes it. I for one would love to find a way to free her from her obligations but that doesn't seem likely. If there were a way she could stop and be free I would scoop her up in a fucking heartbeat.

She would be down for almost anything and seems like she would make a great Mom. After seven years or so the body's cells are completely renewed so I guess all the "cocks cocks cocks cum cum cum" residue would be gone by then. Or, y'know, this week... after a shower or a douche or two.

Yeah, dude. I'm not going to slut shame her for something she seems like she can't control right now... much less later on in the future when she's passed it. Have you seen her thighs?

I am with BrockLanders on this. I could defnitely look past her (maybe former by then) occupation for reasons similar to his. Even if Dalia likes some aspects of her job this would not be a dealbreaker, since it is rather clear from the story that she is not at PC for foppery and whims, but forced by circumstances.
In one of the better endings with a reformed PC still existing, i could see her becoming one of the day-to-day managers for e.g. Hana or the MC.

I think there is a good middle ground. Be kind and wellwishing to pornstars/prostitutes, but don't dismiss that having sex for money will have a heavy impact on a womans mind that will make relationships on average horrible. It brings so many problems.

Aside from the disgust I feel, ex-pornstars/ex-prostitutes to me often seem like men returning from real war. Traumatized.

Have you seen her thighs?

I did! And her fantastic wide hips too! lol

 

[BrockLanders]

I think there is a good middle ground. Be kind and wellwishing to pornstars/prostitutes, but don't dismiss that having sex for money will have a heavy impact on a womans mind that will make relationships on average horrible. It brings so many problems.

Aside from the disgust I feel, ex-pornstars/ex-prostitutes to me often seem like men returning from real war. Traumatized.



I did! And her fantastic wide hips too! lol

Be kind and well-wishing and also disgusted. Got it. No wonder there's a "heavy impact on their mind that will make relationships on average horrible".

 

[JasonsGranpa]

You know, the appeal of a game like Pale Carnations to me is also the fact that even with its tropes it manages to be semi-realistic (a writer would call it "verisimilitude"), and it's food for thought. I'll relay a somewhat personal story.
Many years ago, in the city I live in there was an annual trade show related to the world of sex and porn (something akin to

You must be registered to see the links

, for the sake of example). My brother, being in his twenties back then, went there a couple of times. In the last year he went, he met a porn actress also in her twenties and, being the social butterfly he is, he chatted her up - and they immediately hit it off. They started hanging out, and a couple of weeks after they were ready to start a relationship. Except my brother, being young and naive, had the brilliant idea to tell my parents. As soon as they discovered her profession, they practically blew up and out of control. They had a lot of "emergency serious talks" with him, some more reasonable than others (from "her profession is risky and her future uncertain" to "your reputation will plummet alongside hers") - in the end, they posed a "soft ultimatum", saying that they would never "approve" of their relationship - unless she left her profession. Yep. The fact is, they managed to instill so many doubts in him, that he met with her and ended their relationship. They didn't meet ever again. He told me: "She just stood there and cried. I rarely felt such an asshole in my entire life".
Now, the point of this story is not about my brother or my parents; but playing Pale Carnation brought back these memories. And the lesson, assuming there is a lesson, could be: people in the sex industry, even if uncoerced, have it hard. Usually the reaction of other people when approaching them revolves around the extremes: either they are perceived as human filth, or misguided little angels to be saved. Oh, by the way, I don't mean to be preachy, just - as I've said - food for thought.

I think your parents acted with love. Its like guarding a small child from carelessly falling off a high ground. Older people usually have more life experience and while obviously not everyone gets wise with age, many have seen how certain things tend to go. Starting a family with a pornstar brings many problems, in addition to your ruined reputation. I dont think the complete hands off parenting is a sign of true care and love. Who knows how your brother would do now if they didnt interfere at all. But its not really a popular view these days.

Pale Carnations brings up a lot of interesting themes.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Be kind and well-wishing and also disgusted. Got it. No wonder there's a "heavy impact on their mind that will make relationships on average horrible".

Dont disgust-shame me, bro!

Of course I meant disgusted when thinking of a loving sexual relationship. You can still be kind and well-wishing like you are to your grandma. You still might be disgusted when thinking of rimjobbing her.

I'm also disgusted by girls eating feces, fucking horses, and riding rotten toes of corpses btw. Even if it was 7 years ago. Just to clarify

 

[Garen]

Let me try:
Rosalind has poor taste in men. She'll leave me for the next loser.

That's easy. I turn myself into an even bigger loser and win her back.

 

[Bill Temple]

I think there is a good middle ground. Be kind and wellwishing to pornstars/prostitutes, but don't dismiss that having sex for money will have a heavy impact on a womans mind that will make relationships on average horrible. It brings so many problems.

Aside from the disgust I feel, ex-pornstars/ex-prostitutes to me often seem like men returning from real war. Traumatized.

An apt comparison: combat veterans and sex-workers. Though maybe the difference in the ways we're treated illustrates the injustice. Thank God my wife was able to see beyond kind well-wishing. This despite her recognition of the heavy impact that years of war had on my mind, which has made our relationship border upon horrible at times. It has brought many problems, intense nightmares, hypervigilance, and inappropriate aggression, but oddly she's never been disgusted with me for having served. Now it's true, I never lowered myself to fucking for money, but I was paid, and my chosen occupation required I do things that led to more harmful outcomes than orgasm. Odd that I'm pretty highly celebrated three times a year for that. Maybe pornstars and prostitutes just need better PR.

 

[ename144]

Dalias character model is insanely sexy, but could you really look past her having been a proper prostitute?

I mean cocks cocks cocks cocks cocks cocks cocks cocks cum cum cum cum cum cum cum cum... soooo many cocks and cum in her!

I don't have any strong feelings towards Dalia (she's certainly likable enough, but I take for granted that what we've seen so far is more of a 'stage persona' than the real woman), so it's a bit of a non-issue for me.

But if I were romantically interested in her, I'd like to think that the egregious physical abuse which house girls are routinely expected to endure would be a much bigger concern than the idea of her touching lots of genitalia or their secretions.

I don't want to play the part of the prophet, or the mind reader, with the authors and their narrative... But if I had to guess, I'd say this is a matter of progression and escalation. The Club patrons have access to the Club "employees" as they see fit, more or less, while the Carnations are there for a different reason - for the patrons, the "games" themselves are all in all a matter of vanity and titillation. As TD said, Club patrons aren't allowed direct interaction for the most part. It's very likely that we will see something different in the future - and I'm willing to bet this will have narrative and emotional impact.

I agree with all that, plus I tend to assume that runner-up Carnations are typically offered a role as house girls; they're still in whatever dire circumstances drove them to the Exhibition, and they're already familiar with the Club. It's a logical fit - much like Kathleen's default response to Rose's liquidity crisis was to make her work off the loan.

Given that, it makes plenty of sense the patrons would 'behave' themselves around the Carnations during the Exhibition. They're old enough to appreciate the wrapping before they open their present.

 

[Garen]

An apt comparison: combat veterans and sex-workers. Though maybe the difference in the ways we're treated illustrates the injustice. Thank God my wife was able to see beyond kind well-wishing. This despite her recognition of the heavy impact that years of war had on my mind, which has made our relationship border upon horrible at times. It has brought many problems, intense nightmares, hypervigilance, and inappropriate aggression, but oddly she's never been disgusted with me for having served. Now it's true, I never lowered myself to fucking for money, but I was paid, and my chosen occupation required I do things that led to more harmful outcomes than orgasm. Odd that I'm pretty highly celebrated three times a year for that. Maybe pornstars and prostitutes just need better PR.

There's also what you represent. A PMC personnel would not get the same treatment you do despite arguably going through the same physical work. I think they might even be viewed as dangerous in a normal neighbourhood.

I feel that distinction even among the women in the story. Rosalind could go through the entire list of services offered in the club but I don't think I'll ever see her as a "prostitute". Same with Victoria. I don't think of her as a ex-JAV actress despite it being a hard fact. This could also just be my bias speaking.

 

[BrockLanders]

This could also just be my bias speaking.

Nah, you just look at people as human beings instead of value-added conquerables. Cheers.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

An apt comparison: combat veterans and sex-workers. Though maybe the difference in the ways we're treated illustrates the injustice. Thank God my wife was able to see beyond kind well-wishing. This despite her recognition of the heavy impact that years of war had on my mind, which has made our relationship border upon horrible at times. It has brought many problems, intense nightmares, hypervigilance, and inappropriate aggression, but oddly she's never been disgusted with me for having served. Now it's true, I never lowered myself to fucking for money, but I was paid, and my chosen occupation required I do things that led to more harmful outcomes than orgasm. Odd that I'm pretty highly celebrated three times a year for that. Maybe pornstars and prostitutes just need better PR.

Just to be clear: the only common thing I was referring to was the trauma and the 1000 yard stare / 1000 cocks stare.

Soldiers may have to sacrifice their life so others can live safely. If one is a soldier one might directly or indirectly defend the very life of ones wife/future wife. Prostitutes sell their body for personal financial gain instead of working a less paying more arduous job. All she did for her husband/future husband is making his life less peaceful, more problematic and more miserable.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

You can treat a prostitute as a human without sanctioning her life choices.

No woman would say: "Ah yes, that guy had sex with dogs for 5 years, but thats his past. I will marry him."

 

[obiruto]

Does the old woman dominate the mc at any moment? If yes when is that? I'm not sure if I missed it

 

[Idontplay]

No. There are some femdom scenes among women, but there are none with the MC.

 

[Turret]

Dont disgust-shame me, bro!
, except maybeOf course I meant disgusted when thinking of a loving sexual relationship. You can still be kind and well-wishing like you are to your grandma. You still might be disgusted when thinking of rimjobbing her.
I'm also disgusted by girls eating feces, fucking horses, and riding rotten toes of corpses btw. Even if it was 7 years ago. Just to clarify

Pardon me and please do not get it the wrong way, but what do you think the average Porn actor or prostitute does? What you describe here is niche of niche stuff, except maybe rimming, which is a bit(!) more common.
No wonder your view is like that, when you are averaging things only a tiny fraction of these two groups does, on all.

And an example that not everything is black and white: "Gina Wild"(stagename) was once a famous porn actress, today she is a rather well-known theatre actress, who is acting at some of the major theatres.

Nobody denies that are quite a number of porn actors and prostitutes which are not "relationship material", but that has less to do with their jobs, but more with other things, like general mindset ouside work for example.
Like in all groups, you will some absolutely rotten apples and you´ll also find really great apples in there.