VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5] [Mutt & Jeff]

[JasonsGranpa]

Here are my two cents. If being part of the sex industry is a conscious, uncoerced decision, to me there still shouldn't be any stigma applied to it. You know why? Because that's what it is: a job.

Unfortunately I cannot find a link for the life of me, but some time ago I read an interview with a group of young porn actors living together to share life expenses. Of course the interviewer asked the obvious question: being a group of young, sexually active people, this probably means that when you're together you're also, let's say, sexually active with each other, right? The answer was: of course not. When we're together, sex is the last thing on our minds - we watch movies, or play tabletop RPGs.
By the way, that's the same thing that happens to me: I'm a programmer by trade, and when I'm back home, I don't want to touch a line of code with a ten foot pole. (I'm exaggerating, of course, but this is why work and hobbies rarely coincide).

This is quite relevant to my point: I'm not expecting everyone to want to have a relationship with a sex worker - values and views on life differ. But the idea that their profession is reflection of some kind of twisted, warped mentality - or that their profession must also inevitably reflect horribly on the rest of their life - that, I don't agree with, because it's mixing causes and effects. And also because this could also be applied to other professions, and it doesn't make much sense there either.

Soldiers were discussed before. Let me add policemen to the mix. They are inherently risking their lives for their job, so they should never have relationships, or marry, or have children, right? How arrogant is for them to weigh so much on the shoulders of their dear ones, right? Except, they do have relationships, and marry, and have children. Thank goodness they do! Do they have a life more difficult than other people? Probably, and the same is true for their dear ones. But their profession is not making them worse people in and of itself. (By extension, I find this true also for other high-risk professions: have a look

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, for curiosity's sake).

And things could also be pushed further. As I've said, I'm a programmer. In my country and trade, some IT consulting agencies are quite infamous for requiring an inordinate amount of effort and free time dedicated to projects (yes, months or even years of crunch time is not a reality in the videogame industry only). One in particular is known in my circle as the "widowmaker": I can personally attest the stories of two consultants from the same firm, years away from each other. One of them was dumped after some months by his then girlfriend because of his working conditions, that left him totally "enervated" in his scarce free time, and the second one was married, and his wife was one step away from asking a divorce. He left the job to save his marriage, basically. Well, I'm lucky enough not to be part of such an agency, but I can assure you that when crunch time is required, if I had a wife or children I would be quite absent from their lives - comparatively more than a sex worker, maybe.

Summarizing: the profession by itself is not the issue. People, context and circumstances are the issue. And if you ask me "would you ever see yourself having a relationship with Dahlia, or Mina, or Felicia?", I'll tell you: probably not - but not because of their profession, because we come from backgrounds way too different, and we don't have much in common.

Thanks for the answer!

I think the difference is that a policeman/soldier/etc. choose that profession to either being able to support the life of their wife and children, or to do something altruistic for their community. And even if not they still do something beneficial for the community. Prostitutes may occasionally do it for their child, but surely not to support their husband. Most of the times, and definitely pornstars, they just do it for themselves (more pay, less arduous than another job).

If one would compare it to a male job, maybe hedge fund manager would be in a similar direction. Getting burned from the job while doing damage to society - just out of greed.

I think what many here don't see is that even if a girl doesnt do these things because she is a willing promiscuous slut, then doing these things still take a heavy toll on her - without her doing something beneficial for society like policemen etc. So a guy would accept a traumatized girl who didnt even do it for a good cause.

If she consciously and freely decides to use her pussy in a loveless calculating way to get what she wants, it should be obvious how this will cause havoc in a relationship. Manipulation³ incoming. Also how could somebody expect from a girl to do sex without emotion 10 times a day with strangers and then do the same thing with her husband in a warm and loving way, unaffected by the 10:1 conditioning. Woman are not robots who are unaffected by their doings, and having something as intimate as sex with strangers is not like serving hotdogs to them. I don't buy the modern idea that its just a job.

I think whoever has spoken to women who were prostitutes for a while instantly recognizes their jaded scared hearts, cold from all the unnatural intimate acts.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Either or I would say. At least so far we only know that she is very desperate and fears for the well-being of her child, so she does what she thinks she has to. I also think she is a lot more of a deviant than she seems to let on, but we will see if I'm right with that further down the line, I guess.

Of course for MC as is she is simply too old and I don't think she is looking into ever starting a serious relationship with him. So in terms of the game that might not happen. For the MC Hana or Mina (so far) are probably the best options for a serious relationship.

Yeah, I also think the game strongly shows Roses awakening sexual degeneracy.

Otherwise I wrote more about Rose and the problems her behaviour will cause above. Not even mentioning the potential effects on her daughter later - like with MC and his mother.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[Wallet]

Hey, Started playing this game a bit ago and enjoying it so far. Just a quick question though.
Can you get locked out of content?

Currently just finished the Diner scene before the first week 1 end, and Rosalind is asking if im still up for helping her win. There's 3 options with one of them being [full deal]. If I select that would I be locking myself out of other content with the other girls?

 

[Bill Temple]

Have ugly tats like Harper.

Just out of curiosity: the problem is the wabori (japanese art style), horimono (full body tattoo), or tattoos at all?

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Hey, Started playing this game a bit ago and enjoying it so far. Just a quick question though.
Can you get locked out of content?

Currently just finished the Diner scene before the first week 1 end, and Rosalind is asking if im still up for helping her win. There's 3 options with one of them being [full deal]. If I select that would I be locking myself out of other content with the other girls?

The 'full deal' doesn't lock you out of other content afaik. You can definitely get locked out of content though by for example choosing not to go the 'full deal' route, not choosing similar decisions with other girls, or just not having enough LI points. Not sure if you can see everything/almost everything in 1 playthrough. Best option for that is probably using the walkthrough mod and getting a headache by trying to figure out a perfect way with the pdf walkthrough. Worst case you can always see the scenes in the gallery with the gallery unlocker of one of the mods.

 

[TD1900]

Just out of curiosity: the problem is the wabori (japanese art style), horimono (full body tattoo), or tattoos at all?

The problem is Red's broke-ass brain.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

Soldiers were discussed before. Let me add policemen to the mix. They are inherently risking their lives for their job, so they should never have relationships, or marry, or have children, right? How arrogant is for them to weigh so much on the shoulders of their dear ones, right?

Risking your life at your job is fundamentally a different kind of burden to impose on your loved ones as having sex with other people at work. I suppose the word arrogance could be applied equally, but it feels a bit off since generally risks of death do not carry any benefit to the recipient, whereas while I assume the majority of sex work isnt pleasurable for the woman, I'm sure a fraction is. It's also just different at a basic level, we all know sex is special no matter how hard people try and trivialize or commodify it.

Summarizing: the profession by itself is not the issue. People, context and circumstances are the issue.

I can very comfortably say I would never get in a real world relationship with anyone who has sex for work, no matter how amazing their personality aside from that work may be. The fact that they have sex outside the relationship may not be an issue for you, but it is for me, and probably others.

Having said that, that doesn't prevent me from enjoying the in game characters, particularly Felicia, and imagining a fantasy relationship with them.

 

[Turret]

Thanks for answering!

I totally forgot about that part of Rose. The manipulator is strong in her. Absolute no-go. I liked her sticking with a man through very difficult times. Its rare since a while. Also her submissiveness and until then seemingly sleeping sexuality.

I voiced my opinions on Feli and Mina enough already, but the cheating wish on her part seems to be because of wanting to understand why Ian cheated all the time. True_Degenerates post showed the CG where she at least paints it like that in the bathtub with MC.
I think the crucial question in regards to a girl cheating on her BF/husband is: do girls cheat if they still view their man as desirable? or is it a sign she lost interest/respect/love already and is looking for a substitute?
and
why would a girl cheat once but not again a second time? especially if she sees you forgive her, even though cheating was clearly an absolute no-go from the beginning
Is there sexual acts she could have done before meeting you which you couldnt look past?

Hi and thank you too for your back answer!

As for Rosi, like I wrote in earlier posts, I admire sticking with her husband, like you said it is rare today, even if that piece of s... did not earn that steadfastness. Also her fighting for her daughter and I understand why she tries everything to win with the abyssal deck she got dealt by fate. But how and how much she tries to manipulate is the dealbreaker for me in Rosi´s case.

Mina wanting a planned cheating is the dealbreaker for me. Cheating is already one in most cases for me, but the planning part makes it worse in my opinion! Mina does not want a hall pass or swinging, something you could discuss about beforehand and decide together if you two do it or not. She wants to cheat, which is the wrong choice from the start, no matter the reason.

I answer your question about me being able to possibly forgive a cheating even if it is a no go for me in one with the Mina stuff. First as mentioned before chearing is a no go for me. That said, I´ve been around quite a bit in my life so far. I have seen many beautiful places and meet really nice people I remember fondly, but I have also seen places and people which were the opposite and I certainly did not search for this to happen.

There are all kinds of people out there and among them are most definitely some "predatorous players", men (and a lesser amount women) for whom homewrecking and getting/seducing others to cheat is a deplorable hobby. Some of these sharks have taken it to a shady artform, who can influence even very firm and steadfast persons if the situation helps them.
So while I hope and am reasonable sure my better half and/or I would not falter under heavy "assault"/seduction attempts, we are all human and 100% sureness is not in the cards except one day we all have to die.
So I might be able to forgive her a completely out of norm one-nightstand or "holiday of craziness", she would have difficulties to explain to herself as well, if she comes clean of her own choice.

But I could and would not forgive further cheating, hiding it or planned cheating. It is one thing if she possibly succumbed because everything conspired against her, a timespan which will never repeat itself due to singular circumstances and a whole other thing if there was planning, it kept ongoing a long time or such stuff.
I hope this explains my standpoint on this and why Mina´s pre-planned, maybe hidden cheating she wants to do is anathema for me relationshipwise.

As for sex acts done before meeting me which I could not look past, that depends. If she did it as a curious testing of the the waters or a dare, sin of the youth style, then it is the past and has no bearing on our relationship.
It would be different if she has a preference for a sex act I cannot stand at all or could not care less for. This could be a dealbreaker, but less because of the act itself, but because it is doubtful we would be much compatible in bed and/or mindset.

 

[riggs4714]

The moment I saw Kathleen's veiny titties, was all in.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Hi and thank you too for your back answer!

As for Rosi, like I wrote in earlier posts, I admire sticking with her husband, like you said it is rare today, even if that piece of s... did not earn that steadfastness. Also her fighting for her daughter and I understand why she tries everything to win with the abyssal deck she got dealt by fate. But how and how much she tries to manipulate is the dealbreaker for me in Rosi´s case.

Mina wanting a planned cheating is the dealbreaker for me. Cheating is already one in most cases for me, but the planning part makes it worse in my opinion! Mina does not want a hall pass or swinging, something you could discuss about beforehand and decide together if you two do it or not. She wants to cheat, which is the wrong choice from the start, no matter the reason.

I answer your question about me being able to possibly forgive a cheating even if it is a no go for me in one with the Mina stuff. First as mentioned before chearing is a no go for me. That said, I´ve been around quite a bit in my life so far. I have seen many beautiful places and meet really nice people I remember fondly, but I have also seen places and people which were the opposite and I certainly did not search for this to happen.

There are all kinds of people out there and among them are most definitely some "predatorous players", men (and a lesser amount women) for whom homewrecking and getting/seducing others to cheat is a deplorable hobby. Some of these sharks have taken it to a shady artform, who can influence even very firm and steadfast persons if the situation helps them.
So while I hope and am reasonable sure my better half and/or I would not falter under heavy "assault"/seduction attempts, we are all human and 100% sureness is not in the cards except one day we all have to die.
So I might be able to forgive her a completely out of norm one-nightstand or "holiday of craziness", she would have difficulties to explain to herself as well, if she comes clean of her own choice.

But I could and would not forgive further cheating, hiding it or planned cheating. It is one thing if she possibly succumbed because everything conspired against her, a timespan which will never repeat itself due to singular circumstances and a whole other thing if there was planning, it kept ongoing a long time or such stuff.
I hope this explains my standpoint on this and why Mina´s pre-planned, maybe hidden cheating she wants to do is anathema for me relationshipwise.

As for sex acts done before meeting me which I could not look past, that depends. If she did it as a curious testing of the the waters or a dare, sin of the youth style, then it is the past and has no bearing on our relationship.
It would be different if she has a preference for a sex act I cannot stand at all or could not care less for. This could be a dealbreaker, but less because of the act itself, but because it is doubtful we would be much compatible in bed and/or mindset.

Enjoyed reading that.

Fully agree on Mina. Refreshing to see someone seeing it like that. While its probably supposed to be calming that she found the cheating shitty, its just an horrible character trait to deliberately choose to plan and go through with something that malicious. What will stoke her curiosity next? Jesus, dont let her watch Hannibal Lecter.

Feel the same about what you wrote about Rose.

I think the conscious homewrecking thing is a female past time. Men wreck homes by just not caring about it and wanting to fuck that woman, but the desire to trump over another woman by taking the man from her is a really womanly thing in my books. But maybe I have too good views on men - given all the netori games.

What you wrote on cheating is interesting. Years ago I had similar views. Now it would be a absolute end - even if its an unfortunate situation like you described. Thats actually why I think being "controlling", even though everyone and their mother tries to shame men for it, is a good thing and a sign of care and love. You try to protect the treasured relationship with your woman by not allowing her to get into situations where there is a heightened risk of falling pray to such "overwhelming seductive situations" - like clubs, girls nights out, drinking, vacations with just girlfriends. I know, archaic views, but they were popular views for good reason back then.

Same with trying to preempt situations were rape could happen. I'd rather not be in a situation where I have to decide if I can continue living with a girl for which sex has become a thing of horror. I rather say "no, you wont go there alone at night dressed like that - if you want our relationship to continue."

Sex acts: also no problem if she participated in 2 girls 1 cup, or went to the cemetery occasionally?

What was the for you subjectively most beautiful place you liked?

 

[DarkLords00]

It's always interesting to see the kind of discussions you guys get up about this game.

That is quite easy to answer. I am a rather laidback person and there is not much which can really alienate me, but there are some principles I do not move an inch.
I do not abide
- Chronical lying, which to a certain point include so called "white lies". I am honest and straight when it comes to questions, I expect my partner to be so as well. We can talk about anything and solve it, no lying required at all. Certainly there are some small, little secrets every person has and some things you say due to politeness, that is not the point. But for the big questions impacting a relationship honesty is king, even if the questions are "delicate".
- Disrespect from either side. Since we talk here about porn shots and prostitution, let us stay with this. I would expect the partner involved in it to be stopping this "work" due to respect for the developing relationship and love interest. If both partners discuss it and come to the common made solution that he or she can continue or start to do it at a later date in the relationship, that is another thing. The pair discussed and decided in a partnership(!) how it goes onward, as it should be. If it means a stop of the sexual work or a continuation that is the pairs question to answer together.
- Backhandedness and obfuscation, unsurprisingly related to the points above. To put in pointedly, her being a brazen slut is not the issue if you know BEFORE fully commiting! You know what the situation is and you can decide if it is a dealbraker for you or not. Learning afterwards piecemeal is a no go.
Same with cheating. It should not happen, but we all are human. An unplanned one-nightstand or a "weekend/holiday of craziness" due to some predatorous player should never happen and would hurt like hell, but I could forgive it if she comes clean on her own and it was a onetime thing. Even a late confession on her own would not be "ok", but acceptable, you know what I mean.
A complete no go would be a hidden ongoing affair or a forced by circumstances confession.

So for me in PC Rosalind and Mina are already out, Felicia depends on how she develops further and Dalia we do not know enough about to say so. While I understand Rosi´s reasoning and her crappy situation, she tries too much manipulation in the background for me to consider her relationship material.
Mina struck out with her "bucket list". Not only is the list hidden for the most part, but the explicitely "wanting to cheat" part! Mina is not wanting a hall pass or so, but explicitely wanting to cheat. A hall pass or swinging is something you can talk about and decide to do it or not, that is ok in my book, a pair deciding how "adventurous" they want to be.
But planned cheating as Mina wants to do, nope, as I wrote above that breaks it for me.
Felicia is still realtionship material, even more so as the game goes on. When we play her path, it becomes clear Feli would not even be at the club, if Elias was not such a complete idiot who cheats on her and disrespects Feli massively. Had Elias helped Felicia save her hometown school, which he could have handled easily and even made great PR with it, we would never have met Felicia at all or only as a friend of Mina.

So I want to ask you, if Mina and Rosalind are out for you according to what you expressed here; Why isn't Felicia disqualified also?

Last I checked:
-She is also a cheater
-She planned to do it (As revenge for the Art school situation)
-She is a total Nympho

Personally, I wouldn't want a romantic relationship with any of the characters IRL for different reasons.(After all this is why videogames and stories exist, no? To experience what you would not normally do or see in real life) but I am curious to see why do you think that Felicia could be relationship material when she is vindictive enough to sell herself to damage her husband reputation.

And to clarify, I am not arguing Elias didn't deserve it but just as with Ian and Mina, we did not see the full extent of their relationship.

Sorry if I came off as facetious or condescending I am just legitimately curious.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

It's always interesting to see the kind of discussions you guys get up about this game.



So I want to ask you, if Mina and Rosalind are out for you according to what you expressed here; Why isn't Felicia disqualified also?

Last I checked:
-She is also a cheater
-She planned to do it (As revenge for the Art school situation)
-She is a total Nympho

Personally, I wouldn't want a romantic relationship with any of the characters IRL for different reasons.(After all this is why videogames and stories exist, no? To experience what you would not normally do or see in real life) but I am curious to see why do you think that Felicia could be relationship material when she is vindictive enough to sell herself to damage her husband reputation.

And to clarify, I am not arguing Elias didn't deserve it but just as with Ian and Mina, we did not see the full extent of their relationship.

Sorry if I came off as facetious or condescending I am just legitimately curious.

Regarding Felicia,

Last I checked:
-She is also a cheater
-She planned to do it (As revenge for the Art school situation)
-She is a total Nympho
-She is a total Smokeshow
-She is down for group sex orgies

We all know these professed moral codes can crumble pretty quickly when the girl is hot enough

 

[Deleted member 5730975]

-She is a total Smokeshow
-She is down for group sex orgies

We all know these professed moral codes can crumble pretty quickly when the girl is hot enough

Same can be said about Mina though. For the group sex we need to ease her into it but she will get there. And in terms of attractiveness it is subjective but I think she is better looking than Felicia.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

We all know these professed moral codes can crumble pretty quickly when the girl is hot enough

Especially if they continue to look like that well into their 50s

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

Same can be said about Mina though. For the group sex we need to ease her into it but she will get there. And in terms of attractiveness it is subjective but I think she is better looking than Felicia.

Indeed, just like my hatred of anime is subjective. To each their own.

THough I wish we were talking about Mina in this sentence, her personality would be a lot more fun for a group.

 

[redknight00]

Just out of curiosity: the problem is the wabori (japanese art style), horimono (full body tattoo), or tattoos at all?

The colors, they are just awful and i don't know what it's supposed to be.

 

[Idontplay]

I would agree (no, I totally agree), but "de gustibus not disputandum est" so if she likes her tattoo, she can keep them and I will keep another woman.

 

[Turret]

Wow, so many questions, so few time

While its probably supposed to be calming that she found the cheating shitty, its just an horrible character trait to deliberately choose to plan and go through with something that malicious. What will stoke her curiosity next? Jesus, dont let her watch Hannibal Lecter.

It is this casual pettiness coming through, no matter how much Ian derserved it and pulling his best friend into this mess as well, is the main kicker for me. While part of it is her inexperience with Life, this strucks a wrong chord with me, since the reason for it is so weak.

You try to protect the treasured relationship with your woman by not allowing her to get into situations where there is a heightened risk of falling pray to such "overwhelming seductive situations" - like clubs, girls nights out, drinking, vacations with just girlfriends. I know, archaic views, but they were popular views for good reason back then.

I see your point on this. My take on this can be a bit flippantly compressed into a quote from an old song: "So, Darling, save the last dance for me!" Especially if we both are in attendance and can look out for each other.

So I want to ask you, if Mina and Rosalind are out for you according to what you expressed here; Why isn't Felicia disqualified also?
Last I checked:
-She is also a cheater
-She planned to do it (As revenge for the Art school situation)
-She is a total Nympho

Last I checked:
-She is also a cheater
-She planned to do it (As revenge for the Art school situation)
-She is a total Nympho
-She is a total Smokeshow
-She is down for group sex orgies

We all know these professed moral codes can crumble pretty quickly when the girl is hot enough

Felicia´s situation is a bit different. As far as we know, we would never have met Feli as anything else than Mina´s friend had Elias not done what he did. Felicia even put up with being cheated on by Elias until the Art school situation happened, which was a really big action of disrespect and kicking her metaphorically as a bonus!
Even if their marriage is more a business situation, what Elias did was complete ...! He had to know that Felicia would be passionate about her former Art School, being a prize-winning artist herself. Saving or reopening that school is something which would not have inconvenienced Elias, he is that rich and also given him great PR! In addition, he would have gained Feli´s complete and utter loyalty, despite his continued cheating on her.
Elias showed such utter disrespect and disdain for her and their marriage in that situation that I fully understand her desire for revenge. Her cheating is more a side effect of her revenge plan, would she see other options without cheating being better or higher probability of success she would do so. That she has great sex with the MC and in some other situations is a bonus for her, since she has a high sex drive.
Feli did not start cheating for such "casual", petty reasons as MC has a nice dick, she wanted to see how cheating is or just for fun and diversity, but as means to an end (which she tells the MC). While I do not like that she cheats here, that is a different situation to other cheating.
It is one thing if there is a pair living together without big problems and suddenly bam, one of them cheats and another if your partner treats you like dirt and you are finally fed up.
Hope this explains it a bit, I do not know if all arguments come across right in English.

As for Feli being a Nympho or Hedonist, this is something she does not hide. So we can decide before going fully into a relationship if we are ok her being like that and we can discuss with her how we could live together.

 

[Onesandzeroes]

This game is actually too funny sometimes

 

[Biscardone]

...

...

Thanks to you both for your answers! Pardon me if I don't reply to your messages point by point; I'm already verbose as is, and I don't want to repeat treaded ground too much. I'll just ask to consider the following.
Many of the points you raised about sex workers can be reduced to a single fundamental point: coercion, explicit or implicit. The fact that many sex workers (actors or prostitutes) have horror stories derive, in my opinion, mostly from the fact that they cannot choose clientele or exercise "service agreement", or even require a modicum of empathy during the act. But this isn't, or at the very least it shouldn't be, a given for their profession: it's a matter of circumstance.
As for the implicit value of sex, well, I don't think there is any in the act itself. People give it value. And that's where things get fuzzy: if you're sharing a "special moment" with someone you love, you and your partner are giving value to it. But one partner may want a quickie, or may experience some "sexual fatigue", or have unfulfilled fantasies ("you have betrayed me in your mind!" scenarios). Do these things devalue sex? And from the flip side, what about a couple's previous relationships, do the sex they had (the amount of which will inevitably grow in time) devalue the sex they are having now? In my opinion, the value of sex is to be given and agreed by both partners; that's why being a sex professional does not implicitly and necessarily debase the act itself. Still, I recognize this is mostly a grey area, and I can see people disagree; or as we said, not wanting a relationship at all, it's perfectly fine and understandable.
All in all, sex work (and sex, by extension) isn't something to be romanticized; but it's equally wrong to "demonize" it. As we said, it's always better to avoid extremes and apply some finesse to one's judgment. The game, even with a "novelized" view of reality, provide ample thinking material about the aforementioned matters, and this is something I think we can all agree upon being so good about it, even with our different views on things.