VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ffive]

I think there's also a certain amount of self-hate and/or self-sabotage going on, whether or not Ian is aware of it. His dialog reads to me like he feels, somewhere deep inside, that Mina deserves better than him, so he lies and cheats and pushes her away.

Given his chosen course of action was neither to act like a decent person, nor to end the relationship cleanly if he thought he wasn't worthy of it, but instead to act out and repeatedly hurt his girlfriend to the point where it'd drive her to end things, Mina objectively does deserve better than him. Heck, probably anyone deserves better than him.

Mind you, i'd place large part of responsibility for this on Chuck's doorstep because he's the one who apparently taught Ian to prioritize his own needs and whims above all else, and probably had large share in shaping how Ian views women... but at the end of the day if i'm supposed to buy the idea of "oh but Ian is acshually such sensitive and good boy down inside" the game is half-heartedly trying to sell me, then i'm consequently going to saddle his firmly with ultimate responsibility for his own behavior, and what sort of a person he chooses to be.

 

[Ottoeight]

That's still a low blow. Imagine learning that your best friend hooked up with your ex RIGHT AFTER you broke up. It would certainly leave a bad aftertaste in my mouth. I could still imagine Ian reacting somewhat positively since he's so attached to MC, but it could also be beginning of unnecessary drama.

That's why Edwin - not being an idiot - hasn't told Ian yet. Maybe by the end of the story.

 

[el_pejelagarto]

Yeah, Ian might be a total "fuckboy" on a potential redemption arc, depending on the choices you make. But let’s be real—getting with Mina is a messed-up thing to do, no matter how you look at it. Sure, it’s just a game, and I get the fun in exploring all the different options, but if this kind of situation played out in real life? That’s a hard no.

Going after your friend’s girlfriend while they’re still together—or even right after they break up—is just fucked up. It’s not even about whether your friend is a great person or a total jerk; it’s about respect. Doing that feels like a betrayal of your friendship, and it almost always creates a mess. Feelings get hurt, people lose trust, and you end up looking as an opportunistic douchebag

At the end of the day, it’s not just about what’s "allowed" or not—it’s about having some decency. If someone values their friendships, they don’t go there. Simple as that.

 

[MagicMan753]

I disagree with this whole thing that what our MC is doing with Mina is wrong. Maybe in real life this would be messed up and not cool, but in games ans in this game, i think its fine. I doubt Ian will have a problem once he finds out, he is still hooking up with multiple girls and he didn't have any remorse or sadness after the breakup with Mina. So I think Ian will be cool with it, and I think when Mina was getting treated poor and then started to catch atlctual feelings for our MC, I don't think what we are doing with Mina is a messed up thing at all.

 

[Ottoeight]

Yeah, Ian might be a total "fuckboy" on a potential redemption arc, depending on the choices you make. But let’s be real—getting with Mina is a messed-up thing to do, no matter how you look at it. Sure, it’s just a game, and I get the fun in exploring all the different options, but if this kind of situation played out in real life? That’s a hard no.

Going after your friend’s girlfriend while they’re still together—or even right after they break up—is just fucked up. It’s not even about whether your friend is a great person or a total jerk; it’s about respect. Doing that feels like a betrayal of your friendship, and it almost always creates a mess. Feelings get hurt, people lose trust, and you end up looking as an opportunistic douchebag

At the end of the day, it’s not just about what’s "allowed" or not—it’s about having some decency. If someone values their friendships, they don’t go there. Simple as that.

I guess some players haven't realised that if Edwin has had sex with Mina, she hasn't become his girlfriend yet. They're just banging, and Mina knows about Edwin and Felicia. They either are fuckbuddies or casual lovers - non exclusives: as she says, she wants to experiment, for now.

 

[ffive]

Going after your friend’s girlfriend while they’re still together—or even right after they break up—is just fucked up. It’s not even about whether your friend is a great person or a total jerk; it’s about respect.

These things are directly related. If your friend is a total jerk, why do you act as if respecting him or continuing to be friends with him is the proper and "decent" course of action here?

Being friends is a choice, just like being a jerk is. You can very well choose to stop associating with someone who is a horrible human being, if they show themselves to be such. One could even make a point that it's acting like they still deserve respect and friendship and thus enabling them further that's the fucked up thing to do.

Ian will potentially readily have a threesome with his girlfriend's best friend and his "best buddy" while his girlfriend is asleep drunk right there in next room. Dude doesn't deserve any respect or any room to call anyone a douchebag.

(to be clear, neither does Edwin nor Felicia in this particular scenario)

 

[misfolk]

That's why I like this game: you can have nuanced conversations about characters like Killian who are not two-dimensional collections of tropes. He's a terrible son, a worse boyfriend, and even though he realizes he's one he'll do nothing to change himself. But at the same time he's the best friend Edwin could wish for. Not the best influence, certainly, but if push comes to shove and Edwin needs his help, Ian'll say "I'm in" before hearing what the actual problem is. Loyalty like this is rare, which is why Edwin is so apprehensive about his relationship with Mina.

Why is Ian so self-destructive, though? My guess is because he's afraid of failure. Life at its worst is swell for Killian, it's not like he has to strive to survive. He's got a swanky apartment, a well-paid job that is not that strenuous, enough cash and charisma to pump and dump a new girl every night out. His mom might consider him a loser, but how many losers can live a life like that? Yes, it feels empty sometimes, but he can fix that by drinking another shot and not answering his mother's calls.

Mina breaking up with him reminds him of this. She's a living proof he's a bad boyfriend. It's one thing to pick a girl up, let her cook you breakfast in the morning and then ghost her. You're a dick, but you planned to be a dick. But this time he wasn't horrible enough for that. He tried to be a boyfriend, and it turns out he's not good enough. Why get a degree and a serious job if your employer will fire you just like Mina dumped you? Just more fuel for those considering you a failure.

 

[Elduriel]

Why is Ian so self-destructive, though? My guess is because he's afraid of failure.

not a bad take... he can't fail if he doesn't even try

 

[Takkatakka]

Why is Ian so self-destructive, though?

Because he doesn't need to pull himself together, because he has a pretty easy and lazy life right now and isn't wanting anything.

 

[Ottoeight]

Because he doesn't need to pull himself together, because he has a pretty easy and lazy life right now and isn't wanting anything.

I'd say that Uncle Chuck is responsible for this.

I might add that he never felt that his parents love him no matter what he does. You might say that Victoria is his "adoptive" mom.

 

[Takkatakka]

I'd say that Uncle Chuck is responsible for this.

I might add that he never felt that his parents love him no matter what he does. You might say that Victoria is his "adoptive" mom.

Chuck is certainly enabling and encouraging it.

And his parents (especially his mother) probably screwed him over as well. He hardly knows what love actually is and how it feels. So that screwed his relationship with Mina as well.

 

[ename144]

Can anyone share next update previews from patreon. How many % are done? Can we expected a update this year or its going to be 2025.

There are no official percentages, but you can find the latest Dev Diary (and my graphical translation) here. If you want a quick estimate, late December is possible but early 2025 is probably more likely.

 

[Ozymandias037]

So...if he self-reflects he hooks up with the person who is slightly closer to him? Is that the difference here?

No, the differences go considerably beyond that. If he self-reflects, he talks to Alice about why she's sleeping with him and what he wants out of life. If he doesn't self-reflect, he teases Amber then gets a call from Uncle Chuck encouraging him to embrace his desires, whatever they may be. Similar concepts either way, but vastly different direction.

I was going to say that maybe sleeping with the maid instead of the hairdresser is some twisted form of seeking comfort from the only woman in his life (besides Edwin's mom, who is very much off limits for this type of comfort) who demonstrates any kind of care for his well-being? (That's not a passive-aggressive question mark; rather it is an indication that I'm not actually sure the statement is accurate.) It could also be more self-sabotaging self-fulfilling prophecy behavior. Something along the lines of "I am unhappy about the conclusions I reached when I took a good hard look at myself. If I'm an awful person, then by God I'll act like one."

But I also don't remember the conversation between Ian and Alice, so maybe I'm just completely wrong here.

Given his chosen course of action was neither to act like a decent person, nor to end the relationship cleanly if he thought he wasn't worthy of it, but instead to act out and repeatedly hurt his girlfriend to the point where it'd drive her to end things, Mina objectively does deserve better than him. Heck, probably anyone deserves better than him.

Mind you, i'd place large part of responsibility for this on Chuck's doorstep because he's the one who apparently taught Ian to prioritize his own needs and whims above all else, and probably had large share in shaping how Ian views women... but at the end of the day if i'm supposed to buy the idea of "oh but Ian is acshually such sensitive and good boy down inside" the game is half-heartedly trying to sell me, then i'm consequently going to saddle his firmly with ultimate responsibility for his own behavior, and what sort of a person he chooses to be.

I agree with all of this. I wasn't trying to imply that Mina doesn't deserve better than Ian. She absolutely does. Anyone does. Ian treated her horribly and leaving him was the right choice. I also think that it's definitely possible we'll see some kind of redemption arc for Ian where he realizes what a dick he's become and chooses to change -- or a tragic turn of the same arc where he chooses not to. Maybe depending on interactions with Edwin, or maybe just at TD's whims. But regardless, I agree that Ian alone is ultimately responsible for his own actions, with perhaps some collateral blame for Chuck and Ian's parents for molding him into the person he has become.

That's why I like this game: you can have nuanced conversations about characters like Killian who are not two-dimensional collections of tropes. He's a terrible son, a worse boyfriend, and even though he realizes he's one he'll do nothing to change himself. But at the same time he's the best friend Edwin could wish for. Not the best influence, certainly, but if push comes to shove and Edwin needs his help, Ian'll say "I'm in" before hearing what the actual problem is. Loyalty like this is rare, which is why Edwin is so apprehensive about his relationship with Mina.

Why is Ian so self-destructive, though? My guess is because he's afraid of failure. Life at its worst is swell for Killian, it's not like he has to strive to survive. He's got a swanky apartment, a well-paid job that is not that strenuous, enough cash and charisma to pump and dump a new girl every night out. His mom might consider him a loser, but how many losers can live a life like that? Yes, it feels empty sometimes, but he can fix that by drinking another shot and not answering his mother's calls.

Mina breaking up with him reminds him of this. She's a living proof he's a bad boyfriend. It's one thing to pick a girl up, let her cook you breakfast in the morning and then ghost her. You're a dick, but you planned to be a dick. But this time he wasn't horrible enough for that. He tried to be a boyfriend, and it turns out he's not good enough. Why get a degree and a serious job if your employer will fire you just like Mina dumped you? Just more fuel for those considering you a failure.

This is my favorite thing about this game! The characters are realistic, fleshed-out people that have more than one aspect to their personalities, complex motivations, and both flaws and virtues. Very few things in this game are black-and-white, and that's wonderful, because in that gray area is where we find the most interesting stories.

 

[Diegoz]

thank you

 

[ffive]

I was going to say that maybe sleeping with the maid instead of the hairdresser is some twisted form of seeking comfort from the only woman in his life (besides Edwin's mom, who is very much off limits for this type of comfort) who demonstrates any kind of care for his well-being?

That's more or less my reading of it, too. Though of course, Ian doubling down on treating that "childhood comfort figure" like a fuck toy to be mocked and humiliated does very effective job of undoing whatever sympathy he'd d generate with such a move. Even if he may operate from position of "oh but that's what she likes!"

 

[Turret]

Chuck is certainly enabling and encouraging it.

And his parents (especially his mother) probably screwed him over as well. He hardly knows what love actually is and how it feels. So that screwed his relationship with Mina as well.

Very much so. It has been mentioned and hinted at several times in the game that Vicki was far more a mother to Ian than his real mom. (He might even have a slight crush on her) What little motherly love Ian got most came from Viktoria, a bit from Alice and nothing from Grace. Grace, Ian´s mom, is the coldest character of some importance in the game and that says something!
Kat, Warren or Chuck might have skewed and partly fucked up emotions, but they feel. Sophia is an eccentric nerd and might be overabstracting her feelings, but she has them. August and Otto are hardened criminals, but they feel friendship and fatherly love too.
But Grace? Any time we saw her, there was nothing, just calculation.

 

[Leinad_Sevla]

Talk about timing: just as we are discussing Ian and the way he behaves and treats Mina in particular and women in general, I reach a part of the game where Hana says this:

 

[BowWow1815]

Mina is going to end up as a Carnation or a House Girl if she isn't careful.

 

[ffive]

But Grace? Any time we saw her, there was nothing, just calculation.

Then again, we see her for whole five minutes if that, so that's not exactly telling us much. The only thing we learn about her is that she never liked Edwin.

 

[Takkatakka]

Then again, we see her for whole five minutes if that, so that's not exactly telling us much. The only thing we learn about her is that she never liked Edwin.

Didn't we see her meeting with Victoria on one of the sneak peeks? So we'll probably see more of her in the new update.