Alphaeboy

Active Member
Jul 22, 2019
631
978
Confessions:
1. I like the Hana sex scene but I gotta admit The Birthday grinding still turns me on more.
2. I'm excited to have sex Mina and want more content with the side girls
3. I have a weird attraction to bad bitches or bad women I hate them for their actions but damn they're hot as fuck and wanna hate bang them.
The List goes to: Kathleen
Katrina "No More Money"
Quinn "BADIK"
 

Alphaeboy

Active Member
Jul 22, 2019
631
978
That's why I think the best solution as an author is always to make immediately clear what is your vision, and your long term plans, with your story and direction. If you don't, unfortunately, some people will feel compelled to pester the author to fulfill their fetish-du-jour - because that's what matter, to hell with authorial intent, I guess. In our case TD was very clear from the start on this subject, and this kept the background noise at least manageable - not ideal ("ok, but what if..."), but better than the alternative in any case.
The Author made a long post about it weeks ago and people are still bitching lol. However, the last update just came out a few days ago and there is more incest content on there so some people are satisfied.
 

Zerorox

Active Member
Dec 5, 2021
690
1,115
Confessions:
1. I like the Hana sex scene but I gotta admit The Birthday grinding still turns me on more.
2. I'm excited to have sex Mina and want more content with the side girls
3. I have a weird attraction to bad bitches or bad women I hate them for their actions but damn they're hot as fuck and wanna hate bang them.
The List goes to: Kathleen
Katrina "No More Money"
Quinn "BADIK"
I'm in love with Kathleen character
For me Katrina is the only reason to play NMM (still for Me she's simlyfied version of Kathleen, but I don't care)
Never played BADIK (playing on Android, it's Just too heavy for my Phone lol)

That's the Characters you want to remain tough and cruel by your brain for the sake of immerse, and want them to soften to you by your heart cause of... Ego?
Some "dark romance" or dunno...
(sorry for English)
 

Turret

Forum Fanatic
Jun 23, 2017
4,231
7,240
I guess you never played Mina route?
Because she's in the top 3 with Hana and Felicia. It kind of been to messed up ruining their relationship on purpose and then kissing her and groping her ass while doing the script play practice and hanging around her.
Oh, I did! But as you yourself mentions it, going for Mina and ruining her relationship with your best friend (While Ian does most of it himself, it still is an asshole move by Edwin) is something I only did to see that path. In my personal canon playthrough I do everything to help Ian and Mina, not going after her.
And this dick move you have to do to get into a relationship with Mina is why it is lower ranked than Hana and Felicia. Felicia´s marriage is mostly a contract both sides can disolve and they live rather separate lives already.
 

Alphaeboy

Active Member
Jul 22, 2019
631
978
Oh, I did! But as you yourself mentions it, going for Mina and ruining her relationship with your best friend (While Ian does most of it himself, it still is an asshole move by Edwin) is something I only did to see that path. In my personal canon playthrough I do everything to help Ian and Mina, not going after her.
And this dick move you have to do to get into a relationship with Mina is why it is lower ranked than Hana and Felicia. Felicia´s marriage is mostly a contract both sides can disolve and they live rather separate lives already.
Yeah but Ian and Mina relationship isn't doing so well either to the point it have to you to help them.
 
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Zerorox

Active Member
Dec 5, 2021
690
1,115
Ahah, Ian made as MC's Best friend (really good friend tbh) intentionally, good thing that moral choises isn't problem for MC on (asshole) Kathleen maxed route :KEK:

Still I have diff 3 saves with MC as good guy but balanced to be on Kathleen good side :oops:
 

Zerorox

Active Member
Dec 5, 2021
690
1,115
Oh, I did! But as you yourself mentions it, going for Mina and ruining her relationship with your best friend (While Ian does most of it himself, it still is an asshole move by Edwin) is something I only did to see that path. In my personal canon playthrough I do everything to help Ian and Mina, not going after her.
And this dick move you have to do to get into a relationship with Mina is why it is lower ranked than Hana and Felicia. Felicia´s marriage is mostly a contract both sides can disolve and they live rather separate lives already.
On my Canon playthrough I help Mina/Ian break up and then friendzone her last moment... :KEK:
 

Zerorox

Active Member
Dec 5, 2021
690
1,115
This is definitely a game truly deserving of the top spot on this site.
Yeah, for now it's in my Top 10 (1st place for the moment, cause of Character development)
And I don't even like HS renders, but OMG characters made with love, reminds Me of hours/days/weeks spent in char creation prog of HS, perfect! (that's the reason why I dislike HS renders, got bored to death by it)
 

Takkatakka

Engaged Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,072
9,913
Yeah, for now it's in my Top 10 (1st place for the moment, cause of Character development)
And I don't even like HS renders, but OMG characters made with love, reminds Me of hours/days/weeks spent in char creation prog of HS, perfect! (that's the reason why I dislike HS renders, got bored to death by it)
I said it before: I'm not the biggest fan of the overall style, but the facial expressions and the way the frames are done, is exceptional. Even in scenes in which there aren't actual animations the frames flow into each other during dialogue scenes in such a way that they almost feel animated.
 

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,428
14,189
Yet another dev diary today!
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To complete the numbers TD gave us, our intrepid devs have added 214 statics, 2 animations and 4410 words in the two weeks since the last diary. That's an average of 107 statics, 1 animation and 2205 words per week. Overall, TD and GIL are now averaging ~96 statics, 2.4 animations and 2600 words per week since work on Chapter 4 Part 2 began. Here are the charts:
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I had thought Veronica's portion of this update was meant to be a relatively minor event, but apparently that was not the case. How much of a difference would including it make? Well, let's see.

As you can see (assuming the charts are loading correctly now), static progress remains consistent while animation and word progress has tailed off a bit. If I were to guess, that's probably a result of the nature the content they've been working on. It sounds like the next two weeks will probably be more animation heavy, but it's possible I'm misinterpreting that. Either way, if TD's guess is accurate and the miscellany adds another week or, that suggests Update 2 would probably release around the end of March/start of April *if* Veronica's material gets pushed back to Update 3.

If, on the other hand, Veronica's material stays in Update 2, we're looking at a longer delay. The devs have ben working on Mina's content since around the first week of February and they're still 2 weeks to go. At a rough guess (assuming the remainder is animation heavy), Mina's content probably tips the scales at approximately 480 statics, 18 animations and 17 kilowords. Based on their overall average, a similar sized event for Veronica would would take 5-8 weeks to complete. That would delay the release to the late May/early June range - though as usual take these guesses with a healthy dose of skepticism.

So I can understand TD's concern. Personally, I'm happy to wait for my favorite girl, but I'm also willing to postpone Veronica's turn for the next update; I'll trust TD's judgement of which is better for both the sake of the meter and the sake of the fans. (The only thing I'm leery of is leaving material to short, standalone update because those tend to grow in the telling.)

I am, however, glad TD and GIL are mulling over how to get the most bang for their development hour. I've thoroughly enjoyed the game so far so I trust anything the devs spend time on will be worth the effort, but I do think there's a real value in weighing the cost/benefit of scenes in mind. Even good games can loose focus if you get too bogged down in details, and the longer the development takes the more likely we are to encounter a disruptive fluke. Rushing this game would be a tragedy, but keeping it lean is probably a good thing.

After all, if the devs get all the way to the end and feel like they missed some important opportunities, they can always go back and release a 'Director's Cut' patch. As long as the basic game did justice to the story and characters, I'd certainly be down for getting a little more of it retroactively.
 

selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
943
After all, if the devs get all the way to the end and feel like they missed some important opportunities, they can always go back and release a 'Director's Cut' patch.
This.

I was about to voice some topics which seem to be related to TD1900 and GIL3Ds internal discussions as concerns / criticism of my own for a while now, just never found the time and/or occasion.
Let me be clear on this: i personally don't care how long a single update takes, be it two or four or six months, as long as the content justifies the development time; on the contrary i am rather wary of shorter update circles like one or two months since they often only feature the next "fuck scene of the month with one girl of the cast" made from devs with no idea of how and when to bring their game to an end. Those devs just tend to ride the wave as long as possible, and when this wave dies off, often their games meet a sudden death too. This is clearly not the case with PC.

However, in my personal life i tend to be extremely cautious to invest effort in projects exceeding a mid-term (let's say over five years) timescale, because, let's be real, life is unpredictable. There may be changes in our private, professional and societal lives which render once highly important issues meaningless. So kudos to everyone who committs themselves to a long term goal or project, because those guys and girls are bold.

With no intention to lecture both devs on how to structure their workschedule and workload, i want to share my opinions (from a total laymans point of view, mind you) alongside one or two examples which stem back to ch4upd1 and beyond.

IIRC TD1900 once stated in a post how he usually (correct me if i'm wrong) is ahead GIL3D writingwise, which is of course on the one hand natural, because he needs to provide his graphical artist with the narrative framework, but on the other hand seems to indicate (without shifting any blame) that the capacity to churn out graphics is the limiting factor in the progression of the game.

It is my understanding (again: correct me if i am wrong) that especially creating animations is a very time-consuming and challenging process.
Now, if your animations are your pride and joy and the very reason to create this game, by all means carry on with them. But if you kinda feel obliged to include animations because it's 2023 and the audience kinda expect them to be in games nowadays, i would consider cutting back on them if this would facilitate to reach your goals regarding the game.
To quote Takkatakka on this:
Even in scenes in which there aren't actual animations the frames flow into each other during dialogue scenes in such a way that they almost feel animated.
So PC is one of the rare games which don't need to rely on shiny animations, because its storyboarding is just that good.
Without able to proof it with numbers, i do also believe that older chapters didn't contain as much animations as the newer ones, and they were of no worser quality.
To me animations were always just the cherry on top, so if you offer me one more scoop of icecream in my serving instead of that cherry i'd take the former any day.

I already did praise PC as a game with nearly no useless fillers, virtually every line and image serves a purpose inside it's narration with only some minor and one very notable exception: Lucys and Harpers sex scene.
In my understanding it served as a stage to provide a little background to those two side characters and of course to get them some naughty action to cater to the connoisseurs of Lucy and Harper (which at least in Lucy's case is true for me).
However, from my point of view, it was to over 90% the literal definition of fanservice and it still boggles my mind how much effort and time went into a scene which was a) only fully available to those players who chose the 'Voyeur' trait and b) could have been cut down by at least 50% with no harm.
Now this wouldn't have been an issue if i wouldn't had the -perhaps false- impression, our author was cutting corners in that update elsewhere. A suspicion which is at least partly backed up by TD1900s own confession that there sometimes tends to be an imbalance of content while an update progresses.

I don't envy any developer of a game who would like to include this feature or that content, but has to make the decision to cut off some of the planned stuff (ORS's Ed path comes to mind) and i still hope and trust our creators can include all of their envisioned content, but if you guys would hold a poll i'd rather have a the equivalent of a comic book with a good story than a half baked try to emulate a movie.

TL;DR
If at any time hard choices regarding PC future development have to be made, i -personally- consider cutting back on it's animation load as the least detrimental.
 

Biscardone

Member
May 2, 2020
109
549
So I can understand TD's concern. Personally, I'm happy to wait for my favorite girl, but I'm also willing to postpone Veronica's turn for the next update; I'll trust TD's judgement of which is better for both the sake of the meter and the sake of the fans. (The only thing I'm leery of is leaving material to short, standalone update because those tend to grow in the telling.)

I am, however, glad TD and GIL are mulling over how to get the most bang for their development hour. I've thoroughly enjoyed the game so far so I trust anything the devs spend time on will be worth the effort, but I do think there's a real value in weighing the cost/benefit of scenes in mind. Even good games can loose focus if you get too bogged down in details, and the longer the development takes the more likely we are to encounter a disruptive fluke. Rushing this game would be a tragedy, but keeping it lean is probably a good thing.

After all, if the devs get all the way to the end and feel like they missed some important opportunities, they can always go back and release a 'Director's Cut' patch. As long as the basic game did justice to the story and characters, I'd certainly be down for getting a little more of it retroactively.
Absolutely agreed. Personally, I'm in for the long run, but I can see how the motivation of a dev / author working on the same game for years could wane, and I can't see a worst fate for Pale Carnation to be rushed out of the door just to end it. So, I'm all for TD and GIL to revise their workflow to their advantage. I'm sure not many players would agree, but I would even accept some retroactive revisions / streamlining of the already released content, if it brought benefits for future releases - especially to avoid branching paths snowballing into an avalanche. Any author knows that seeking perfection is a fruitless, maddening, self-destructive effort; while not yielding to mediocrity, humans have to strive for the nearest approximation thereof. And it's fine!
 

TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
792
7,464
I just want to say, cutting corners is the last thing either GIL or I will do. We (in part) do this for our own satisfaction, desire to work together, and love for the process. My approach to making a visual novel has been about balance. You can always do better, you are always improving... so it's about finding the sweet spot between what's important to you, what you are satisfied presenting to the world, and getting things done at a reasonable pace. That has been our philosophy since the start, and it is why you'll never see us go back and "remaster" anything while there's still a long road ahead of us. Every update you get better; if you're a perfectionist, it would just simply never end.

With that in mind, animations tend to be a trade off. They take time to make, but they also make some of that time back from the huge swathes of text they eat up which would otherwise require static images, while adding immense production value to the project. If the script gets to a point where not doing an animation would be a glaring omission, that would not sit well with either of us. I just love GIL's animations. It's one of the things I derive great joy from, so I don't want less of them.

Instead, our discussion(s) center around my side of the things: the way scenes are paced, designed, and structured. In my pursuit to make a perfect game for me, I have a tendency to complicate scenes, which ends up running contrary to my own selfish goal when things begin to play out unevenly. selberdreher is astute when he mentioned exhibition 2; the free roam section served the purpose of continuing the club as a character, but things suffered in the back half. There was certain potential developments in the Felicia and Rosalind events that I would've like to portrayed, but ended up not doing so because of a combination of fatigue and our desire to actually see people playing our hard work. That's another impetus for the discussion: beyond finishing at a sustainable pace, releasing has become an enjoyable stage of the creative process for us.

I mean, it's not like very many people are complaining about the time our updates take; in fact, most people tell us to take our time, but it can't be discounted just how much seeing people playing, reacting, and enjoying your work is good for the soul. Having people discuss an update is like a renewal of spirit. It's invigorating, educational, and is overall good for the health of the project. I would veeeeeery much like to be a 3 updates a year kind of game. However, I also recognize that being rigid with frequent updates is not the solution, because cutting an update at an undue time just adds to more operational downtime over the long run with testing and PR'ing and other stuff.

So, I really do just think the answer is reining in my impulse to get fucking crazy at the first chance I get.

Take two of my favorite scenes for example: the Felicia sex scene in Elias' office and Mina's "all you can eat buffet." The Felicia scene has a ton of branching: vaginal or anal, and then positional choices after that. The Mina one is a lot more straight forward, you just choose the kind of tone you take with her and how you finish. I love both these scenes, but there is an argument to be made that a more unified, singular Felicia scene would've been more potent than any individual branch while also taking less work.

Anyone got any thoughts on that?
 

RHFlash

Active Member
Apr 4, 2018
698
945
Anyone got any thoughts on that?
My opinion is to do more singular unified scenes like Mina’s. The first reason is because it takes less work as you stated, which allows you to either release faster or have more time to add more to the update. The second reason I’m going to call camouflage. If you put in the extra work to give a scene branching outcomes, like the Felicia scene, it can still feel like one scene. When the buildup to the scene, the setting, and the characters involved are all the same, two different paths in a scene can feel too similar and your brain sees them as two parts of one whole. For example, if you forced the player to view the anal variation and then let’s say the next day Felicia called Edwin over under some pretense then had a bit of dialogue, and then the vaginal scene ensued but say in the kitchen or pool or wherever, that to me seems more satisfying because there’s more of a distinction between the scenes. For those reasons I would personally recommend limiting branching in scenes. The Felicia scene was one of the best in the game though confirmed.
 

sunaboz

Member
Donor
Jun 25, 2018
489
1,789
(...)
a more unified, singular Felicia scene would've been more potent than any individual branch while also taking less work.

Anyone got any thoughts on that?
I disagree with RHFlash.

It might be more potent but in the end we're just observers and the VN is even less of a game than it was. I ignore "kinetic novels" because I might as well watch porn, PC on the other hand is the best porn game because it really is a game. We have tons of things to do and many paths (and sex positions) to take and this is why it's so replayable. I know that many players won't notice all the branching and all your hard work and think that an update was rather short but just as many should appreciate it. /IMO
 
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