Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread

[DarthSeduction]

In the more than a handful of occasions where creators were forced to change so far, a few went the "replace word" route and to be honest, it does not really work that well.

For example, you would need more than one option, as immersion wise its pretty harsh when you only ever hear the word Dad. No change ever, always the same, no pet name like changes, no Daddy.

Thats why I think the patch/mod way is the way to go, IF the creator does the mod/patch, and already has the story set up to work with it, meaning, they have innuendos and all that stuff in game already. Then just drop your patch/mod somewhere, and enjoy the thankfully still remaining anonymity when working with the internet. Its basically a underground way, which limits some kind of advertising, and would require a bit of a set up time first, but the people like/want/pay for the content that has been seen, so they might be lenient there.

The problem remaining (well one of them) is that the most tough conditions apply to new creators, as most probably dont want the hassle, dont have the playerbase, dont know where they could advertise the real version they create.

The only problem I see with that is how you'd both inform your players of its existence and keep it off of patreon so that they don't stumble on it. For instance, you couldn't launch a site that links to your patron, because they'll catch that, you also couldn't put the link to a site on your patreon, because they'll catch that. Essentially that limits people to places like this for their NSFPatreon releases. This would be fine for you and me and a couple thousand others. But it would never be enough. That said, if the mod is built into the game every potential player will now know that they can expect these genres from you in the future, they'll be interested in your games because of the taboo content in spite of the fact that you don't advertise it.

That is the most nefarious part of this. It limits our reach. I enjoy lots of games and content, but the intimacy and taboo nature of incest seems to be my most gracious trigger, so I look for it in games I download, and intend to include it in what I create. Now creators who will flout the rules will have a hard time reaching their audience, unless we somehow find a way to create a new slang term to get it past the filters. That is why I think the best route is to include it in the base game, because unless you already know about sites like this one, or are already following a developer, the only way you're going to find the content you really want is if its a choice in the content as provided.

 

[User_215882]

This site and discord are just two ways players and potential supporters can see or read what the game actually is about and learn about the patches to restore the game to its original content. So long as the dev doesnt actually advertise patches on their website or discord channels theres not much patreon can do since they still are within their TOS. I know discord invites are usually a part of a supporter tier, but they should be free for everyone.

 

[NaughtyScales]

You guys miss the point, if you put something on your personal site and it's optional, they can't do anything.
It's like with Steam games where adult content just blocket. Patreon just go over their heads, if they start ban peoples bc of content on personal sites. It's like if facebook or twitter will start ban peoples only bc they porn actors.
What tendency we see here? When Patreon will grow even bigger they will start ban any NSFW content, bc Family friendly platform bring more profint and better reputation in media.

 

[DarthSeduction]

You guys miss the point, if you put something on your personal site and it's optional, they can't do anything.
It's like with Steam games where adult content just blocket. Patreon just go over their heads, if they start ban peoples bc of content on personal sites. It's like if facebook or twitter will start ban peoples only bc they porn actors.
What tendency we see here? When Patreon will grow even bigger they will start ban any NSFW content, bc Family friendly platform bring more profint and better reputation in media.

No, you're the one missing the point. As was pointed out in their discussions with Faerin,

Spoiler: excerpt from Faerin message

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

If they get to it that's all they need to shut you down. So if you have it on another site you can't advertise it or link to it in any way. It would have to be something that people stumble upon in Discord or a Forum or Subreddit. At that point the content we truly want to make and share with the world wont be shared because it simply won't have the reach. So your choices still suck.

 

[NaughtyScales]

No, you're the one missing the point. As was pointed out in their discussions with Faerin,

Spoiler: excerpt from Faerin message

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

If they get to it that's all they need to shut you down. So if you have it on another site you can't advertise it or link to it in any way. It would have to be something that people stumble upon in Discord or a Forum or Subreddit. At that point the content we truly want to make and share with the world wont be shared because it simply won't have the reach. So your choices still suck.

Guidelines work only on content that placed in Patreon.
But still method that I say don't violate even with that interpretation.
1. You share in Patreon for pledges censored game (and to avoid misunderstanding, add on platform that it's Patreon friendly version/content)
2. In game (or in readme.txt) you have 2 links Support(Patreon) and Official site (no direct links to patch/mod)
And i don't invented this, this already works with DLsite, some flash games who dev not from JAP, sell censored version there. And on Official site you can get Uncensored patch, and here more serious than some Patreon site guidelines.
And again Steam, they don't care till you don't put direct link to patch or put any mention about it on their platform.

and on sites like f95zone dev or fans can promote Patch. For those who too lazy click and read official site.
So patron get what are promised on Patreon, and content don't violate any guidelines.

 

[Delmach]

No, you're the one missing the point. As was pointed out in their discussions with Faerin,

Spoiler: excerpt from Faerin message

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

If they get to it that's all they need to shut you down. So if you have it on another site you can't advertise it or link to it in any way. It would have to be something that people stumble upon in Discord or a Forum or Subreddit. At that point the content we truly want to make and share with the world wont be shared because it simply won't have the reach. So your choices still suck.

That was one of the messages I had collected, but you left out the other paragraph which could kinda negate it, this one:

"I can see a creator having a "dual" presence online: a website that hosts content that's considered violative to Patreon's guidelines, and a Patreon account where they fund content of a different theme -- but there is no link or relation between the two. As long as there's no "Check out my Patreon page here" on the hosting website, then it wouldn't be a violation."

And as proof there is Sexcurse studios, which recently went under suspension and is now operating on Patreon again, and on their website they just add a sentence "Weird, looks like this build needs a patch from somewhere..."

Also, on patreon in the comments section from said creator, people openly post links to the Lewdpatcher patch for the game. Im not saying its a 100% sure way this works, but I figured if they underwent a suspension and are now back again, the people that initatiated said suspension would probably monitor them a bit after they have their page restored.

Though you are right about a part, which is the advertising part. This, as I said before is the most inconvenient thing for new creators. But then again its not impossible, maybe even your clean variant of the game attracts people, and then you would have to leak the patch/mod yourself, or you can probably even say there is another version out there on Patreon, from someone that modified your game, be it yourself or actually someone else that restored the content, which also happened already.

Edit: (as if I didnt write enough, but one thing came to my mind) The advertising might even happen on its own, if there is a mention of a patch on any other Website or Lewdpatcher, that information probably does go around rather quickly nowadays. Thats even more fueled by the peoples desire to rub it into Patreons face right now, that we dont really want to comply with their arbitrary censorship.

 

[DarthSeduction]

That was one of the messages I had collected, but you left out the other paragraph which could kinda negate it, this one:

"I can see a creator having a "dual" presence online: a website that hosts content that's considered violative to Patreon's guidelines, and a Patreon account where they fund content of a different theme -- but there is no link or relation between the two. As long as there's no "Check out my Patreon page here" on the hosting website, then it wouldn't be a violation."

And as proof there is Sexcurse studios, which recently went under suspension and is now operating on Patreon again, and on their website they just add a sentence "Weird, looks like this build needs a patch from somewhere..."

Also, on patreon in the comments section from said creator, people openly post links to the Lewdpatcher patch for the game. Im not saying its a 100% sure way this works, but I figured if they underwent a suspension and are now back again, the people that initatiated said suspension would probably monitor them a bit after they have their page restored.

Though you are right about a part, which is the advertising part. This, as I said before is the most inconvenient thing for new creators. But then again its not impossible, maybe even your clean variant of the game attracts people, and then you would have to leak the patch/mod yourself, or you can probably even say there is another version out there on Patreon, from someone that modified your game, be it yourself or actually someone else that restored the content, which also happened already.

Edit: (as if I didnt write enough, but one thing came to my mind) The advertising might even happen on its own, if there is a mention of a patch on any other Website or Lewdpatcher, that information probably does go around rather quickly nowadays. Thats even more fueled by the peoples desire to rub it into Patreons face right now, that we dont really want to comply with their arbitrary censorship.

That really doesn't negate it. What they've done is similar to what I'm suggesting in general, in that they actively flout the rules by hiding that they are doing so. They are using a patch, but they aren't drawing that attention to it. Honestly they should try and censor their comments if they are too obvious. What that does say is that you could fund yourself through one game on patreon that does follow the guidelines, then simultaneously create other content on a site that doesn't link to your patreon and doesn't use anything from the game that is on patreon.

Guidelines work only on content that placed in Patreon.
But still method that I say don't violate even with that interpretation.
1. You share in Patreon for pledges censored game (and to avoid misunderstanding, add on platform that it's Patreon friendly version/content)
2. In game (or in readme.txt) you have 2 links Support(Patreon) and Official site (no direct links to patch/mod)
And i don't invented this, this already works with DLsite, some flash games who dev not from JAP, sell censored version there. And on Official site you can get Uncensored patch, and here more serious than some Patreon site guidelines.
And again Steam, they don't care till you don't put direct link to patch or put any mention about it on their platform.

and on sites like f95zone dev or fans can promote Patch. For those who too lazy click and read official site.
So patron get what are promised on Patreon, and content don't violate any guidelines.

The discussion makes very clear that as far as Patreon is concerned it doesn't matter where you host the content, if it is funded by their platform it is bound by their censorship. So, if you're the creator of a game that you're funding on Patreon, you cannot have a modification for that game that violates their guidelines on any site. They don't want you privately sharing it, for crying out loud.

I stress, I'm not supporting what Patreon is doing, I'm not trying to discourage content creators from flouting the rules. I simply believe that the best course of action is to not draw any attention to the fact that there's something that they should want to restrict. So, rather than leaving an evidence trail, you could put the content in the game. Similar to your idea about the Readme, you could simply package the offending script with the game in a seperate unused folder that they just have to copy and paste. Or, you could package both scripts under different names and make an in game choice determine it. The moment you host a separate download Patreon is seemingly willing to restrict you.

The fact that they haven't found whatever developer you follow's particular mod\patch doesn't meant hat they won't. Again I can't stress enough how unlikely it is that Patreon has it's employees actually playing this content. They are likely using an algorithm to search the pages for anything wrong while also relying on us to report violations. The sophistication of their algorithm is the only real worry. Is it capable of following a link and scanning the resulting page? If so, you can't risk a link. Is it looking at user comments? If so you can't have them talking openly about your patch on the page.

I'm not saying a patch isn't a solution. Its a great solution. I'm simply saying its difficult to draw attention to, and that it can expose your violations more simply. If the content is in the game already, hidden behind a choice that will stop people from reporting you, then you have a better chance of getting away with it while also ensuring that your fanbase knows what they can expect from you.

 

[NaughtyScales]

So, if you're the creator of a game that you're funding on Patreon, you cannot have a modification for that game that violates their guidelines on any site. They don't want you privately sharing it, for crying out loud.

That can't be possible and true. What are you doing outside patreon it's out off their concern. They don't have exclusive right on game that you deliver on Patreon and have no right put any limits to creating mods for your game.

 

[Sam]

That can't be possible and true. What are you doing outside patreon it's out off their concern. They don't have exclusive right on game that you deliver on Patreon and have no right put any limits to creating mods for your game.

It is true unfortunately. Even if it isn't on their platform, if you're funding 'forbidden' content, then they see it as grounds for suspension.

Third party sites like LewdPatcher allow developers to have plausible deniability, but if the site were to be actually owned by the developer then they could be in trouble.

 

[anne O'nymous]

That can't be possible and true. What are you doing outside patreon it's out off their concern. They don't have exclusive right on game that you deliver on Patreon and have no right put any limits to creating mods for your game.

It's like when you try to sell sex through a dating site. Whatever if you don't talk about it on the site, as long as you do it, it's against their rules and you'll be banned if they found about it.
The same apply to Patreon. As long as your game can have banned content, it's against their rules. But by chance creators aren't responsible for what the community do with their games.

 

[Delmach]

I still stand by all what was posted, you wont, to a very extremly high probability, be held responsible for what others do with your game. And I only said you could point out that someone out there mods/patches your game, even if its yourself, obviously dont say you did it, even if you did.

You should not directly post links to that yourself, on your patreon or your linked site from/to patreon. But a creator dropping a mod/patch on Lewdpatcher for example is "safe".

The quotation is for the very unlikely case that patreon says "we found out your game is patched to have content that violates their guidelines, its your fault for making that game or not somehow removing modability."

And if they do that they I can probably see one of those called shitstorms.

Another edit: In case of GDS, working on Chloe18, he, after being suspended, did this:

(question leading up to the explanation): Basically you have to make the patreon an empty shell that redirects to the website with the content ?

GDS explained:
Redirect to a forum, with no content, then the patrons need to link their PAtreon account so they can see a link and a password for my website, and agreed on several annoying messages that the game is not tied with Patreon.

And also said this afterwards:
The lady that banned me said it was ok, after refusing most of my proposals.

Not saying that anythings clear after Sexcurse and GDS continuing, but those two cases do point to it still working, but again nothings really guaranteed.
Also I do think the suspended cases are probably monitored for a while so I dont see why they could continue for weeks now.

 

[NaughtyScales]

Okay i will try my method, when I finish building my game xD
If not work i will write here )

 

[DarthSeduction]

I still stand by all what was posted, you wont, to a very extremly high probability, be held responsible for what others do with your game. And I only said you could point out that someone out there mods/patches your game, even if its yourself, obviously dont say you did it, even if you did.

You should not directly post links to that yourself, on your patreon or your linked site from/to patreon. But a creator dropping a mod/patch on Lewdpatcher for example is "safe".

The quotation is for the very unlikely case that patreon says "we found out your game is patched to have content that violates their guidelines, its your fault for making that game or not somehow removing modability."

And if they do that they I can probably see one of those called shitstorms.

Another edit: In case of GDS, working on Chloe18, he, after being suspended, did this:

(question leading up to the explanation): Basically you have to make the patreon an empty shell that redirects to the website with the content ?

GDS explained:
Redirect to a forum, with no content, then the patrons need to link their PAtreon account so they can see a link and a password for my website, and agreed on several annoying messages that the game is not tied with Patreon.

And also said this afterwards:
The lady that banned me said it was ok, after refusing most of my proposals.

Not saying that anythings clear after Sexcurse and GDS continuing, but those two cases do point to it still working, but again nothings really guaranteed.
Also I do think the suspended cases are probably monitored for a while so I dont see why they could continue for weeks now.

It likely isn't a human being that is monitoring these things, as I've said before. We have to remember we are dealing with a corporate entity. If it was a small forum like this, or a low subscriber subreddit then they might have human moderators, but on the scale of patreon its going to be bots and algorithms. The reason they're getting away thus far is simply because they haven't tripped the bot and there's been no white knight to report them.

It could all work out for the best. And yes, you could post a mod for it here or on lewd patcher under a pseudonym and maintain plausible deniability. But I really think those are unnecessary steps, if you are going to patch it anyways, why not package it with the game? Patreon isn't playing them. Patreon isn't even downloading them. They wouldn't waste that kind of money to have a human experience the content for every single hours long game. Either a choice in game, or a readme could alert people to it's presence. Thereby players would be aware of the content but it wouldn't need to be spoken about online where it could be found.

 

[Jim Webb]

So has anyone heard of MakerSupport?

You must be registered to see the links

It is the only alternative I have seen to Patreon that seems any good.
You keep 90% of the pledged money they take 5% and the remaining 5% is for transaction fees.
From what I have seen and been told they would have zero problem of having ANY Adult games on there site.

 

[Delmach]

Thats what I said as well a while ago, I kinda share your opinion on it, and so far most things do point out to them being reported by someone. Latest example is GDS, where apparently an automatic email came which even had necrophilia mentioned, which isnt in game. But they say better safe than sorry, suspend the website and then check on it.

But one thing is different, im not saying they arent playing them, im not saying they arent even downloading them, because I dont know or can be 100% sure there.

And heres why I have my doubts, which program would take nearly 3 months now (it started going down on the 18th october) to find, and im going by my own knowledge there, not even a dozen cases that violate their guidelines, while basically every second game in the "hidden" NSFW category would violate them.

Now lets assume human beings would really check them, the same kinda applies there, cant really work that slow (well maybe) but it just doesnt really add up or make sense, check more than 2 games in the NSFW and there you go.

What im trying to say is, the heck knows how they operate, no idea why some can indeed share their unwanted content on websites, but through a password check and relay to another site route, and others just say "it isnt connected to Patreon, they just pay for my hardware" while it clearly isnt. The last case also happened before the enforced guidelines, but it was a copyright thing, the creators do still use patreon.

This all does pretty much go in hand with how the community guideline people communicated with the creators though, as there was a wide variety of "ehh looks fine, continue with what you do" and "scrub your whole patreon page, delete all comments, change renders, basically change everything".

Darn, thought it would be a smaller wall of text this time, sorry 'bout that.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Thats what I said as well a while ago, I kinda share your opinion on it, and so far most things do point out to them being reported by someone. Latest example is GDS, where apparently an automatic email came which even had necrophilia mentioned, which isnt in game. But they say better safe than sorry, suspend the website and then check on it.

But one thing is different, im not saying they arent playing them, im not saying they arent even downloading them, because I dont know or can be 100% sure there.

And heres why I have my doubts, which program would take nearly 3 months now (it started going down on the 18th october) to find, and im going by my own knowledge there, not even a dozen cases that violate their guidelines, while basically every second game in the "hidden" NSFW category would violate them.

Now lets assume human beings would really check them, the same kinda applies there, cant really work that slow (well maybe) but it just doesnt really add up or make sense, check more than 2 games in the NSFW and there you go.

What im trying to say is, the heck knows how they operate, no idea why some can indeed share their unwanted content on websites, but through a password check and relay to another site route, and others just say "it isnt connected to Patreon, they just pay for my hardware" while it clearly isnt. The last case also happened before the enforced guidelines, but it was a copyright thing, the creators do still use patreon.

This all does pretty much go in hand with how the community guideline people communicated with the creators though, as there was a wide variety of "ehh looks fine, continue with what you do" and "scrub your whole patreon page, delete all comments, change renders, basically change everything".

Darn, thought it would be a smaller wall of text this time, sorry 'bout that.

You're right that we can't know anything for a 100% certainty, but asking your employees to experience or download adult content is incredibly murky territory, even if they actually are an adult company. Most large scale operations simply pull it down. If you challenge, then there might be an investigation, but only then. At that point its certainly more possible that someone will be asked to take the step of actually assessing the content. However, again, there are definite legal issues there. The employee would likely have to sign a few forms stating that they are comfortable with this duty, and even then, we are talking about an hours long commitment.

You are right, that if the number of cases is so small that it probably is all report based. If that's the case, then its fine to try and flout them the other way, I simply think its an extra step, plus an expense if you're hosting your own site.

 

[DarthSeduction]

So has anyone heard of MakerSupport?

You must be registered to see the links

It is the only alternative I have seen to Patreon that seems any good.
You keep 90% of the pledged money they take 5% and the remaining 5% is for transaction fees.
From what I have seen and been told they would have zero problem of having ANY Adult games on there site.

Another provider could work, however the current model of capitalism really makes a jump of this nature difficult to pull off. Hosting your content on Patreon comes with brand recognition and a large active customer base. Essentially, we would need not just one or two, but all content providers to jump ship.

Does it support paypal? That is a must. A payment method that doesn't involve peoples credit card information brings in a more willing customer base. I suppose a crypto currency could work as well, but I feel like they aren't really that stable and people aren't willing to invest in them in order to pay for content.

Then, last but not least, we would need some sort of assurance from MakerSupport that they wouldn't buckle to corporate pressure to censor content. Because if we were to invest in that move we would be vulnerable in ways we aren't now. There are plenty of content providers on Patreon who haven't been caught and who are doing just fine. Would a move to MakerSupport expose them to hardships they aren't currently facing?

 

[greyelf]

I think a number of people are getting hung up on what rights Patreon has to control the content of the end product (lets assume it's a release of a game) but are forgetting that one of the purposes of Patreon is to allow subscribers to fund the creation process.

Because Patreon is (mostly) targeting the creation process (not the end product) it is possible for them to have a greater say on what types of creation processes and what content types (created by those processes) they are willing to allow to be funded via their web-site. This is why they feel they have the rights to monitor end product hosted somewhere else when they believe that said end product was created using that funding.

 

[Jim Webb]

Another provider could work, however the current model of capitalism really makes a jump of this nature difficult to pull off. Hosting your content on Patreon comes with brand recognition and a large active customer base. Essentially, we would need not just one or two, but all content providers to jump ship.

Does it support paypal? That is a must. A payment method that doesn't involve peoples credit card information brings in a more willing customer base. I suppose a crypto currency could work as well, but I feel like they aren't really that stable and people aren't willing to invest in them in order to pay for content.

Then, last but not least, we would need some sort of assurance from MakerSupport that they wouldn't buckle to corporate pressure to censor content. Because if we were to invest in that move we would be vulnerable in ways we aren't now. There are plenty of content providers on Patreon who haven't been caught and who are doing just fine. Would a move to MakerSupport expose them to hardships they aren't currently facing?

To your first point I agree but I do not see any future on Patreon for Adult content of any kind so better to jump first until pushed. If it was me I would use both sites and try and move as many of my supporters from one site to the other

To your second I don't know I will try and find out my knowledge has come second hand I will contact the company and try and find that info.

Third point I do know as I Am aware that the company was started specificity because of the way Patreon has been acting remember it's not just Adult games they want gone, they have kicked off a lot of people from there platform for an myriad of reason none of them acceptable in my view.

 

[DarthSeduction]

To your first point I agree but I do not see any future on Patreon for Adult content of any kind so better to jump first until pushed. If it was me I would use both sites and try and move as many of my supporters from one site to the other

To your second I don't know I will try and find out my knowledge has come second hand I will contact the company and try and find that info.

Third point I do know as I Am aware that the company was started specificity because of the way Patreon has been acting remember it's not just Adult games they want gone, they have kicked off a lot of people from there platform for an myriad of reason none of them acceptable in my view.

I would have to read to know for a fact, but it's likely that Patreon will not allow you to use their platform while also trying to drag people to a competitor. In that instance, any dragging of your base will have to be done third party, for instance, here, on a subreddit, or on your personal blog or discord. If you could get away with the dual presence, sure, that's smart. Again, I'm not exactly worried about the current creators with a large fanbase. Ptolemy could make the switch and probably not lose a penny. But to any new developers who don't already have a fanbase Patreon offers stability.

And yes, Paypal is a make or break. Sadly.

Patreon happened to come out and say that they wouldn't censor adult content a year or so ago, didn't they? That's the major problem I have with enabling another company. Their assurances almost need to be binding, because it is the size and growth of Patreon that caused them to make this switch, what will stop this company from doing the same.