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Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread

Ignazzio

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So it does have incest. It might be a great opportunity to change our market a lot. From small monthly payments to a normal sale. We could have a normal market like Japanese with some quality games not addicted to Patrons demands. Actually I more and more like it. I've heard that Dots is also planning to move there tho I'm not sure about him
 

DarthSeduction

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So it does have incest. It might be a great opportunity to change our market a lot. From small monthly payments to a normal sale. We could have a normal market like Japanese with some quality games not addicted to Patrons demands. Actually I more and more like it. I've heard that Dots is also planning to move there tho I'm not sure about him
 

Ignazzio

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Hmm... Maybe I'm wrong then. I've heard it somewhere on discord. I don't think our games which are created with monthly updates in mind fit well Gamejolt but new projects would be cool. Tho I doubt it's proper replacement for Patreon for now.

News: Big Brother 0.13 will be the last version of Big Brother. Glamour is taking its place
 

DarthSeduction

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Hmm... Maybe I'm wrong then. I've heard it somewhere on discord. I don't think our games which are created with monthly updates in mind fit well Gamejolt but new projects would be cool. Tho I doubt it's proper replacement for Patreon for now.

News: Big Brother 0.13 will be the last version of Big Brother. Glamour is taking its place
The biggest issue is that the developers need an income while they're developing. So either they'd need to charge a fuckton up front, turning people off, or they'd need a monthly sub system.
 

ASLPro3D

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When I was writing it I wasn't really thinking about the claire scene either. My own project actually starts with a sexual assault in that context. I was more talking about how you treat the demon princess. And yes, you're right that the bestiality isn't depicted, but I wasn't sure you weren't planning on exploring it further. It would really be sad to see you censored. You're one of my favorite creators at the moment. Have you considered moving to a more accepting platform?
Honestly, never personally viewed the scene with the Syrina as one of sexual violence committed against her, as she really never puts up a fight and submits... I suppose it could be viewed that way by some if they wanted to really look hard enough at it, but for me... it is only a story that doesn't involve real people.

That would be like the main character pulling out a gun and shooting someone are they really accountable for murder when no one was really killed?

As for the implied bestiality, I've not really considered exploring it far enough to show it... I plan to have it mentioned and referenced, but haven't really thought much about showing it. Sometimes situations can have a far bigger impact on a reader or a player if you allow them the freedom to use their own imagination, giving them the ability to script the scene within their own heads and drawing their own conclusions can create a more personal event and a much more memorable experience for them than anything I could ever show them.

I am not sure that a more "accepting" platform exists out there... we still live in the "Dark Ages" where society continues to paints a stigmata on anything classified as "porn", so my work will always be subjected to criticism and lobbied for censorship.

"Wicked Choices" for me was and continues to be a castaway story for me... it was put together with the sole intention of seeing if people would be interested in a game utilizing my writing rather than using any of my much better and more developed stories and failing at independent game making.

While I think "Wicked Choices" is good, and I am extremely grateful and thankful that so many have accepted it as well as they have, it really isn't one of my better stories or work and look forward to completing "Wicked Choices" so that I can start showing off some of my much better stuff.

My goal is, as it always been when starting this venture, find out if there is a value in pursuing a place for myself in the independent game market and, if so, use the income to pull together a better and more professional team to form a company and business that will create a higher end product that currently isn't available on places like Patreon to share with people the worlds that exist in this noggin of mine. ;)
 
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DarthSeduction

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Honestly, never personally viewed the scene with the Syrina as one of sexual violence committed against her, as she really never puts up a fight and submits... I suppose it could be viewed that way by some if they wanted to really look hard enough at it, but for me... it is only a story that doesn't involve real people.

That would be like the main character pulling out a gun and shooting someone are they really accountable for murder when no one was really killed?

As for the implied bestiality, I've not really considered exploring it far enough to show it... I plan to have it mentioned and referenced, but haven't really thought much about showing it. Sometimes situations can have a far bigger impact on a reader or a player if you allow them the freedom to use their own imagination, giving them the ability to script the scene within their own heads and drawing their own conclusions can create a more personal event and a much more memorable experience for them than anything I could ever show them.

I am not sure that a more "accepting" platform exists out there... we still live in the "Dark Ages" where society continues to paints a stigmata on anything classified as "porn", so my work will always be subjected to criticism and lobbied for censorship.

"Wicked Choices" for me was and continues to be a castaway story for me... it was put together with the sole intention of seeing if people would be interested in a game utilizing my writing rather than using any of my much better and more developed stories and failing at independent game making.

While I think "Wicked Choices" is good, and I am extremely grateful and thankful that so many have accepted it as well as they have, it really isn't one of my better stories or work and look forward to completing "Wicked Choices" so that I can start showing off some of my much better stuff.

My goal is, as it always been when starting this venture, find out if there is a value in pursuing a place for myself in the independent game market and, if so, use the income to pull together a better and more professional team to form a company and business that will create a higher end product that currently isn't available on places like Patreon to share with people the worlds that exist in this noggin of mine. ;)
That moment when one of the best writers in porn gaming claims that this isn't even their best work...

Can't wait to see what you can bring us man. Seriously, Wicked Choices is a bit odd, sure, but as far as writing goes its definitely the most polished I can think of. I agree that we do live in a sort of modern victorian era, where people pretend sex is a big taboo, not meant to leave the bedroom. I hope we are getting better as time goes on. I think the Internet has done a lot to help us come out of our shells, but, especially in america, the stigma around sex in culture is still pretty strong.
 
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ASLPro3D

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That moment when one of the best writers in porn gaming claims that this isn't even their best work...
Wow... *blushes* ...I am not really sure about that, but thank you for the compliment!!

Can't wait to see what you can bring us man. Seriously, Wicked Choices is a bit odd, sure, but as far as writing goes its definitely the most polished I can think of.
Honesty, I stress a lot about the story as it was sort of created on the fly for me and not as developed as some of the other stories that I want to do... I only spent around a year or two of plotting out the story, whereas the other stories I long to really tell have been worked on between 10 to 20 years and is far, far more expansive in storytelling than what you see with "Wicked Choices".

I agree that we do live in a sort of modern Victorian era, where people pretend sex is a big taboo, not meant to leave the bedroom. I hope we are getting better as time goes on. I think the Internet has done a lot to help us come out of our shells, but, especially in America, the stigma around sex in culture is still pretty strong.
I agree, we've come a long way as a society in the acceptance of sex and sex related products, but there is still a long way in which to go. As long as tight-wad, think-they-know-better-for-you groups continue to have a say and have people caving into their stupid demands things won't change.

As long as today's wishy-washy, impressionable generation of "let's jump on the latest bandwagon" so we can raise our fists and pretend we know what we are doing exists and continues to choke on the "blue pill" that tight-wad, stuffy old people feed them to further their "let's save the world from themselves" agenda, the longer this society will continue to collapse and no longer be free from the restraints and shackles we willingly affix to ourselves... but hey, that is another discussion entirely! ;)
 

DarthSeduction

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Wow... *blushes* ...I am not really sure about that, but thank you for the compliment!!



Honesty, I stress a lot about the story as it was sort of created on the fly for me and not as developed as some of the other stories that I want to do... I only spent around a year or two of plotting out the story, whereas the other stories I long to really tell have been worked on between 10 to 20 years and is far, far more expansive in storytelling than what you see with "Wicked Choices".



I agree, we've come a long way as a society in the acceptance of sex and sex related products, but there is still a long way in which to go. As long as tight-wad, think-they-know-better-for-you groups continue to have a say and have people caving into their stupid demands things won't change.

As long as today's wishy-washy, impressionable generation of "let's jump on the latest bandwagon" so we can raise our fists and pretend we know what we are doing exists and continues to choke on the "blue pill" that tight-wad, stuffy old people feed them to further their "let's save the world from themselves" agenda, the longer this society will continue to collapse and no longer be free from the restraints and shackles we willingly affix to ourselves... but hey, that is another discussion entirely! ;)
Its really not though. More people need to take a step back and see the whole picture. If you want to address an issue, literally any issue, be it gay rights, black lives matter, the dreamers, censorship, whatever, you need to step back and look at the underlying causes. You need to see and accept the economic struggles and their effect on crime, you need to understand and fight the effects of religion in politics, you need to understand and see the effect of money in politics as well. Fixing any one issue is like putting duct tape on a cracked dam. It'll never hold and another leak is bound to spring up in its place. We need to fix the system itself.
 
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ASLPro3D

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Its really not though. More people need to take a step back and see the whole picture. If you want to address an issue, literally any issue, be it gay rights, black lives matter, the dreamers, censorship, whatever, you need to step back and look at the underlying causes. You need to see and accept the economic struggles and their effect on crime, you need to understand and fight the effects of religion in politics, you need to understand and see the effect of money in politics as well. Fixing any one issue is like putting duct tape on a cracked dam. It'll never hold and another leak is bound to spring up in its place. We need to fix the system itself.
You said it much better than I did and are right... people aren't stopping, taking a step back and looking at the whole picture... they just launch themselves full-tilt into something, without stopping to think about the impact as a whole, only looking for the cultural impact at the moment.
 

anne O'nymous

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3.) On the subject of the aforementioned Banking, Patreon must adhere to the principles set forth by their Internet Merchant Account/Banking Institution, as well as, any principles and limitations that they agree to when conducting business with ANY merchant accounting business (such as PayPal)... these institutions and banks are very clear in what they will or will not allow in the matter of "High Risk Adult Content/Products" and Patreon must adhere to those limitations or risk losing their Internet Merchant Account and money charging processes... and, I assure you, the limitations and penalties ARE severe!!!
Yes and no, because you forgot a fact : Patreon host adult content since their start, but the creators of said content can use the subsidiary company of Paypal since only one and half a year. This mean that :
1) Paypal don't care if the site host adult content, as long as they don't have to deal with it themselves. During almost three years, they worked with Patreon, knowing that they hosted adult content, and the only thing they did was to refuse to be part of the transaction for this content. And yes, they knew, because during all these years Patreon fought to change this situation, until Paypal finally agreed to do it indirectly.
2) If Paypal decided to step out and stop the agreement between their subsidiary company and Patreon, it would be a step back for Patreon, but that's all. They already know how to deal with direct bank to bank transactions, because it was what they did before. So, they wouldn't need to kick out some creators. Same if Paypal decided that their subsidiary company wouldn't deal anymore with "extreme" adult content.
 

ASLPro3D

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Yes and no, because you forgot a fact : Patreon host adult content since their start, but the creators of said content can use the subsidiary company of Paypal since only one and half a year. This mean that :
1) Paypal don't care if the site host adult content, as long as they don't have to deal with it themselves. During almost three years, they worked with Patreon, knowing that they hosted adult content, and the only thing they did was to refuse to be part of the transaction for this content. And yes, they knew, because during all these years Patreon fought to change this situation, until Paypal finally agreed to do it indirectly.
2) If Paypal decided to step out and stop the agreement between their subsidiary company and Patreon, it would be a step back for Patreon, but that's all. They already know how to deal with direct bank to bank transactions, because it was what they did before. So, they wouldn't need to kick out some creators. Same if Paypal decided that their subsidiary company wouldn't deal anymore with "extreme" adult content.
Actually, you are entitled to your opinion, however it isn't entirely correct... PayPal does care about their image and with the recent press that Patreon received over their botched idea of charging fees to customers rather than on the creators, put Patreon more fully on the radar of groups that are likely to create trouble when discovered that Patreon's content also include hardcore adult content and resulting pressure would likely cause PayPal to harden their stance and efforts to avoid public outcry.

What Patreon has been able to accomplish with PayPal in being able to conduct transactions for adult services is notable and unique, try doing it on your own and see how long your PayPal account would remain active... it wouldn't, trust me, I know from experience.

PayPal must adhere and remain faithful to their Terms of Service contract that they have all potential merchants agree too, it only takes the fact that those terms are being ignored for Patreon from anyone in the media to create a hassle that PayPal would seek to avoid.
 
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anne O'nymous

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PayPal does care about their image and with the recent press that Patreon received over their botched idea of charging fees to customers rather than on the creators, put Patreon more fully on the radar of groups that are likely to create trouble when discovered that Patreon's content also include hardcore adult content and resulting pressure would likely cause PayPal to harden their stance and efforts to avoid public outcry.
Sorry, but it's a total none sense. Patreon changed their guideline at the end of October, and hardened their action slowly but surely since this date, while their failure with the fees was at the start of December.
Who's the secret owner of a time travel machine ? Paypal or Patreon ?


What Patreon has been able to accomplish with PayPal in being able to conduct transactions for adult services is notable and unique, [...]
Must be why, like I said, Patreon had to fought during three years to achieve it...


PayPal must adhere and remain faithful to their Terms of Service contract that they have all potential merchants agree too, it only takes the fact that those terms are being ignored for Patreon from anyone in the media to create a hassle that PayPal would seek to avoid.
It would be right if Patreon ignored them, which isn't the case. For adult content, Patreon use Braintree, not directly Paypal, as stated by the agreement between Patreon and Paypal. That Patreon failed hard with their communication, alright. Stating that "creators with the Adult Content flag can accept payments from patrons using PayPal!", which isn't technically the truth, wasn't the best thing to do. And it's probably the same thing for their interface.
But this was one and half a year ago, and it made enough noise around the world to come back to the Paypal active watch team. Like this noise included some weird things, which can still be easily found nowadays, Paypal knew that they made a not really good decision. If they really wanted to move, they would have done it before, not let their reputation slowly go down. Like you said yourself, they are fast to react... and 18 months isn't fast at all.

As for the reserve, Patreon provided it as part of the , and if Braintree wanted to raise the said reserve, it shouldn't be a problem either, since Patreon achieved to raise (some source say goes up to $70) in the middle of September. The simple fact that they achieve to raise this amount mean that the reserve isn't a real problem. If it wasn't the case, the investors wouldn't have take the risk. Note that the main investor is the same in both case, so they are fully aware of the situation, since the first raising was clearly done, at least partially, to cover the reserve asked by BrainTree.
Regarding BrainTree, Patreon strictly follow :
We can sometimes minimize our financial exposure enough to allow merchants with high-risk business models to process with us. Two of the most common ways we do this are covered below.
Require a personal or corporate guarantee
[...]
Establish a reserve

[...]
Rules which don't include restriction regarding the content. After all, BrainTree is here to let Paypal have a part of the high-risk transaction cake...

So, once again, why Patreon changed their rules in October ? It's clear that they strictly enforce them now because of all the noise their move made, but it still don't explain why they initially did it. And, no, it wasn't because of Paypal... I understand that you dislike them a lot, but it's not enough to goes against the facts...
 
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ASLPro3D

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I am not going to keep arguing a point with you, suffice to say that no time machine was required, as it was likely that Patreon was undergoing (in October) a required scan of their SSL and their website was flagged as having violating material on it or that the website scanned failed to pass encryption and security, at which point, after an investigation is performed and a report is issued to the credit transaction merchant account and to the website informing if they passed or failed...

You are free to hold Patreon to blame, because honestly, they are to blame for allowing that content in the first place when it clearly violates their own terms of service... either way it is happening... I was merely pointing out that there are other likely culprits contributing for the need to crack down on offenders... nothing more, nothing less... the bottom line is, I honestly don't care. :)
 
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miserab

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So, what does a dev need to do to not fall on the wrong side of Patreon? I'm gearing up to make a game, and I don't wanna get wrecked. What are the popular kinks that Patreon doesn't call the whaaambulance over?
 

Ignazzio

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You can't use incest, bestiality, rape and your characters have to look like adults. In fact it doesn't seem like they care much about rape ingame content so far. Incest and underage is forbidden and hunted
 

DarthSeduction

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So, what does a dev need to do to not fall on the wrong side of Patreon? I'm gearing up to make a game, and I don't wanna get wrecked. What are the popular kinks that Patreon doesn't call the whaaambulance over?
HIDE YO KIDS HIDE YO WIFE... oh... sorry replace those with incest and bestiality. I'd also avoid sexual assault but that's more just a personal choice. Best Advice I can give you if you do include incest, or bestiality, make your title clean and keep the words brother sister mother father aunt uncle grandma grandpa and any other iterration of those words or of familial ties ie twin, off of your page. Refer to your characters by their names. Name your characters. I love getting to name my characters as much as the next guy when I play, but when it comes to Patreon you need to be able to talk about a character by name.

Do all that and you should stand a chance in any reviews. If you wanna be really thorough write all your incest content into a separate script and make a conditional statement look for it, if it exists, incest, if not, no incest. Bam. Me, I'm just writing my incest as an option from the start. If they want it they can have it, if not they don't. I'll refer to mom as colbie and dad as frank and I'll never mention that Alexis and Alexander are Twins. Their aunt, caitlyn will be caitlyn.
 

miserab

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See, this is what I keep telling people. Even if every game with incest is purged, other devs will just step in to fill the void. There's just too much money to be made.
 

Ignazzio

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But no one with serious intent to live from development will do so. You just can't risk and right now this risk isn't even mediocre but huge. It's not worth it to make some cash and dissapear from Patreon
 

ASLPro3D

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It could also be the case that Patreon is looking to sell and they are cleaning up their image in preparation.
That is entirely a possibility as well, or their investors are seeking that the site be cleaned up, contingent on them depositing the seed money...

Personally, there are just so many things that are wrong with Patreon's software itself and I find it incredible to believe that there are investors out there pumping so much into an incomplete website... for example, F95 has a better tracking system for comments, replies and likes than Patreon has... Patreon is a completely nightmare sometimes to figure out who posted what and where... and sometimes you aren't even notified that someone commented in the Community area of your own page.

Then there is the problem with multiple creator projects... only one person has access to the website... any additional co-creator has to pledge to be a member to be able to handle things like technical support... unless of course you want to provide the main info to the site, giving the co-creator complete access to all of your banking information...

Like I said, there is so much stuff that is wrong with that site still, that honestly if a competitor came along, they could easily put Patreon out of business and make all of that seed money completely and totally useless...
 
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