Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread

[fauxplayer]

I still cant believe how lazy Dark Silver was when it came to all of this. He knew, or should have known, about the enforcement of the TOS and that he would definitely be under review if he did not at least make his page vanilla. Then on top of that he didn't already consider making his game patreon friendly? I mean the guy is/was making enough cash on patreon to put resources into making the patreon friendly release while (maybe) having the game mod friendly for his supporters who wanted it as it was. I don't like seeing devs go under, but its seriously very difficult to feel sorry for the ones that are right now when it was known for months what would happen.

On the other hand, given what we know about him, it's pretty easy to believe Dark Silver was too lazy and/or egotistical to do the extra work of trying to make his page patreon friendly.

But I do agree... There are still brand new incest-themed games being posted to Patreon all the time, and there are several games where it seems like the dev is just hoping no one will notice...? If you're making real money from a game, it seems worth it to put everything off until your page is TOS-compliant.

 

[bluehound36]

That's a good point. I'm sure it doesn't help though that the title is big brother. Yes, we, having played the game, know its a play on the voyeurism aspect of the game, but the reviewers are gonna see the word brother in an erotica title and immediately be suspicious.

That also speaks to the strong belief I have though that Patreon isn't seeking out violative content. If they were he'd have gone down in the initial purge. Someone has to have reported it, likely for the youthful characters, but could be for the incest as well.

No, the fact they're actively looking outside of their own site to find reasons to ban the devs is a violation of their own privacy protections for the devs on their site. What happens on patreon is their business, outside of it, is not. Nobody reported it, they are looking themselves on sites like this and others. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a few rats (patreon moderators) on here under profiles that have been active trolls in some of the threads.

 

[Ignazzio]

No, the fact they're actively looking outside of their own site to find reasons to ban the devs is a violation of their own privacy protections for the devs on their site. What happens on patreon is their business, outside of it, is not. Nobody reported it, they are looking themselves on sites like this and others. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a few rats (patreon moderators) on here under profiles that have been active trolls in some of the threads.

Patreon can do whatever they want on their site. If game is bad for their image as a company, they can remove it without problem. Popular games like BB or DMD can be banned just for their titles not to say about content. Sure is that it looks like they really hired some people

 

[User_215882]

It would make sense with DMD if Patreon staff did monthly checks on pages where they were recently suspended to see if they are still in compliance with the TOS. From what I read, the dev was literally asking to get banned by stating how you can restore the banned content on his patreon page. Like seriously dude don't do that. At best drop some hints, but don't do it on your page. That's what discord and emails are for.

 

[bluehound36]

Patreon can do whatever they want on their site. If game is bad for their image as a company, they can remove it without problem. Popular games like BB or DMD can be banned just for their titles not to say about content. Sure is that it looks like they really hired some people

That's what I'm saying, they can do that. But only that which is directly ON their site. They can't pull something from somewhere else, like here for example, as their reason. The content on THEIR site is that which they can take action against. Outside of it, they're crossing a line that concerns their own TOS and privacy policies.

 

[Ignazzio]

That's what I'm saying, they can do that. But only that which is directly ON their site. They can't pull something from somewhere else, like here for example, as their reason. The content on THEIR site is that which they can take action against. Outside of it, they're crossing a line that concerns their own TOS and privacy policies.

Yes, but if game is everywhere on the internet every month, named Big Brother with incest description and link to Patreon it's a problem for them. I wouldn't really care and found any reason to stop it. Like they did. It's crappy for DS and us but without alternative it's like fighting with Youtube or Google. Theoretically possible but just theoretically

 

[anne O'nymous]

That's what I'm saying, they can do that. But only that which is directly ON their site. They can't pull something from somewhere else, like here for example, as their reason.

Of course they can do it ! You can be forbidden to enter a private building because of your behavior outside of this building, and it's the same for a web site. As long as it look like you use them to fund a game which have content they don't want, they can decide to kick you out, whatever you have mention the game on their site or not.
You can always try to sue them for this, but who will do it ? It will cost more than you earn for your game and you don't even have the guaranty to win the case in the end of the years long process to the sentence. So nobody will do it

 

[Barioz]

No one consider 2 girls as incest but simple lesbian play. It's totally vanilla. Real porn can have young looking actresses as they are always over 18 due to be real. I think that lolis might be the scariest thing for such a site. No one deals with underage porn or even accusation.

The thing is real incest would be present in porn if it was allowed. But obviously noone wants to get arrested for it. So they fake it. Same goes for the underaged looking girls.

Still games are not real. Laws can't be used for completely fictional and virtual content. Let's say I play a shooter and kill someone with a gun. Does the police come to my place and arrest me for virtually killing pixels? No, they won't. So if two fictional characters in a computer game are fictionally related and do fictional virtual incest stuff, no law gets broken. The only thing relevant would be youth protection, meaning no underaged people have access to the game.

And even if someone comes up with some complete BS story that it's against a law for this and that reason, you can just say all the characters in the game are fictional virtual actors who are not really virtually related to each other but play a fictional, virtual role. Just like they do it in porn.

 

[fauxplayer]

Is anyone else kinda relieved that the DMD and BB takedowns will finally (hopefully?) force game developers to find another suitable platform where we no longer have to deal with patches and TOS bullshit? I mean, I feel bad for devs whose income stream is being cut off, but it's not like they didn't have any warning. Patreon wants to be a leader in the "support the artist" space and wants to discard some of the seedier adult content (incest, rape) so that they can bring on more venture capital dollars. They do NOT want to be known as the go-to place for porn games. That makes sense. It sucks that they couldn't work with devs to find solutions and instead they're hanging them out to dry, but I get it. So... someone will come along with a better model for supporting games like these, and the sooner the better. Today's events will make it sooner, and that might be a good thing.

 

[bluehound36]

Of course they can do it ! You can be forbidden to enter a private building because of your behavior outside of this building, and it's the same for a web site. As long as it look like you use them to fund a game which have content they don't want, they can decide to kick you out, whatever you have mention the game on their site or not.
You can always try to sue them for this, but who will do it ? It will cost more than you earn for your game and you don't even have the guaranty to win the case in the end of the years long process to the sentence. So nobody will do it

The people in question, cleaned up their shit as they were requested however. Thus, they had no reason to do this other than facing a legal issue themselves or just to be complete dicks. Now, if they had continued their behavior on patreon itself then it would be warranted. But you are right, nobody is going to file a suit for that, too much money, time and effort.

 

[fauxplayer]

The thing is real incest would be present in porn if it was allowed. But obviously noone wants to get arrested for it. So they fake it. Same goes for the underaged looking girls.

Still games are not real. Laws can't be used for completely fictional and virtual content. Let's say I play a shooter and kill someone with a gun. Does the police come to my place and arrest me for virtually killing pixels? No, they won't. So if two fictional characters in a computer game are fictionally related and do fictional virtual incest stuff, no law gets broken. The only thing relevant would be youth protection, meaning no underaged people have access to the game.

And even if someone comes up with some complete BS story that it's against a law for this and that reason, you can just say all the characters in the game are fictional virtual actors who are not really virtually related to each other but play a fictional, virtual role. Just like they do it in porn.

I 100% agree with everything you said, but what does any of this have to do with "laws"?

 

[wrx21]

Is anyone else kinda relieved that the DMD and BB takedowns will finally (hopefully?) force game developers to find another suitable platform where we no longer have to deal with patches and TOS bullshit? I mean, I feel bad for devs whose income stream is being cut off, but it's not like they didn't have any warning. Patreon wants to be a leader in the "support the artist" space and wants to discard some of the seedier adult content (incest, rape) so that they can bring on more venture capital dollars. They do NOT want to be known as the go-to place for porn games. That makes sense. It sucks that they couldn't work with devs to find solutions and instead they're hanging them out to dry, but I get it. So... someone will come along with a better model for supporting games like these, and the sooner the better. Today's events will make it sooner, and that might be a good thing.

i'm affraid that it will cause counter effect where many devs will just give up..

 

[User_215882]

For a US based company, the only kind of (fictional) content that patreon would actually get in trouble for is **********. I don't know about other countries abroad, but the US government isn't going to crack down on fictional incest between 18 plus characters. Some crazies might try to push their agenda, but those crazies tend to be into some kinky shit themselves. If it did there would have been no way GoT would have actually been allowed to air in the United States, but since its fictional it gets a pass.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Is anyone else kinda relieved that the DMD and BB takedowns will finally (hopefully?) force game developers to find another suitable platform where we no longer have to deal with patches and TOS bullshit?

They search for the said suitable platform since the start of the problem... and still haven't found it. What Patreon do is kind of unique, it's not just a web site. They offer (well, more "paypal" provide) a virtual account which can be "divided" before ending in your bank account, so you can easily fund team project. They provide some help with legal issue (fiscal procedures and things like this). They offer some guaranty regarding the pledge to limits the risk of frauds.
They also have (had !) a reputation, which is important. Whatever you pledge $1 or $50, it's your money and you want to be sure that it will goes to the creator, not on the site account.

It's not that they don't want to move, I'm sure that a lot of them are searching hard. No, it's just that they can't move, there isn't another site like the Patreon pre ban hammer.

 

[smnb]

That's what I'm saying, they can do that. But only that which is directly ON their site. They can't pull something from somewhere else, like here for example, as their reason. The content on THEIR site is that which they can take action against. Outside of it, they're crossing a line that concerns their own TOS and privacy policies.

From their TOS:

We can terminate or suspend your account at any time at our discretion. We can also cancel any pledges and remove any content or rewards at our discretion.

So it's not like they couldn't get rid of anyone, anytime they want and for any reason.

Still games are not real. Laws can't be used for completely fictional and virtual content.

Of course they can, if they're written to include fictional stuff. While it may sound stupid, it's actually happening. E.g. for the "underage" stuff, as far as I know, it should be no no in whole EU for "realistic renders" (or something like that) and some countries already went even further to include innocent drawings and stuff. So anything is possible.

 

[fauxplayer]

They search for the said suitable platform since the start of the problem... and still haven't found it. What Patreon do is kind of unique, it's not just a web site. They offer (well, more "paypal" provide) a virtual account which can be "divided" before ending in your bank account, so you can easily fund team project. They provide some help with legal issue (fiscal procedures and things like this). They offer some guaranty regarding the pledge to limits the risk of frauds.
They also have (had !) a reputation, which is important. Whatever you pledge $1 or $50, it's your money and you want to be sure that it will goes to the creator, not on the site account.

It's not that they don't want to move, I'm sure that a lot of them are searching hard. No, it's just that they can't move, there isn't another site like the Patreon pre ban hammer.

Thanks for that explanation. I guess I was just hoping that the ban-hammer would create the necessary vaccum for something to take its place, but you're right--establishing a space that extends beyond "pay to play" and actually provides fraud protection, legal help, etc, would be quite an undertaking. But where there is a will (and $$$), there's a way

 

[Barioz]

I 100% agree with everything you said, but what does any of this have to do with "laws"?

Because platforms like Patreon might also come up with some legality excuses or things like that.

Of course they can, if they're written to include fictional stuff. While it may sound stupid, it's actually happening. E.g. for the "underage" stuff, as far as I know, it should be no no in whole EU for "realistic renders" (or something like that) and some countries already went even further to include innocent drawings and stuff. So anything is possible.

Yeah, the stupidity is a real problem. Like it's allowed to virtually murder and massacre an entire city with everything going deep into details like exploding bodies, flying extremities and stuff as long as it gets an Age 18 rating (or R-rated or however it is called in different regions), but as soons as nudity is involved the gates of hell seem to be opened when asking the responsible people.

 

[fauxplayer]

For a US based company, the only kind of (fictional) content that patreon would actually get in trouble for is **********. I don't know about other countries abroad, but the US government isn't going to crack down on fictional incest between 18 plus characters. Some crazies might try to push their agenda, but those crazies tend to be into some kinky shit themselves. If it did there would have been no way GoT would have actually been allowed to air in the United States, but since its fictional it gets a pass.

Correct. I'm not quoting your response to argue your point at all, so please don't think I'm replying to you specifically, but only to make a broader point that this whole issue has nothing to do with laws and what is legally allowed (in terms of what is or isn't legal content for Patreon to host, or for PayPal to process). Commenters on this thread have cited video games depicting murder as some kind of comparison. Apples and oranges. Companies making ultraviolent videogames judge the market and know that while there might be controversy around the latest release of GTA or whatever, that controversy helps them sell more product. Does anyone think for a moment the suits at Rockstar Games were worried about legal questions of depicting illegal actions?

Patreon is not making these decisions out of any concern about the US government cracking down on them for allowing fictional games containing incest. It is simply about their intent to project a more wholesome face to their investors as they expand and to ensure the Patreon brand is not associated with socially questionable sex content.

Jesus, it sounds like I'm defending Patreon. I don't mean to. I just guess that I understand why Patreon has decided not to lead a crusade protecting the legal "rights" of entrepreneurs to develop fictional games depicting illegal sex acts. Patreon can attract a lot more money overall by purging any content that would make a team of investors in suits squirm. Hopefully an established site will see the revenue potential and create a similar structure that welcomes this kind of content. It will take time, but there's too much money to be made to ignore.

 

[DarthSeduction]

So over on dev hub I heard DS is talking to maker support! DMD just got hit too, so if both of them go there we might have a new, more supportive platform soon!

 

[knerre]

So over on dev hub I heard DS is talking to maker support!

I believe MakerSupport is using Stripe to process fees by letting users connect their account to Stripe. They have a list of prohibited businesses and it includes adult content: Pornography and other obscene materials (including literature, imagery and other media); sites offering any sexually-related services such as prostitution, escorts, pay-per view, adult live chat features (

You must be registered to see the links

) So my understanding is that creators and pledgers are dealing directly with Stripe, MakerSupport isn't the go-between. Any adult developer will likely run into trouble.

I've been reading up a bit on payment gateways. My understanding is that most big porn companies use a high risk gateway like CCBill to process credit cards. So unless MakerSupport, or any other platform adds that option, the problem with censorship remains.