Patreon: Untenable model for game development?

[Joshua Tree]

Refer to hobby creators of adult games on Patreon as the "western adult games industry" is so wrong though...

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

I don't think so.

Cracking down on games would also lead to cracking down on the other sexual things. That is a very large base of people they'd lose. And, technically speaking, a game having a patch isn't breaking the rules. They have no way to prove the developer made the patch. Thus no way to prove the developer broke the rules. They can't ban people for content not on their site, especially if they can't actually prove the developer had anything to do with it.

On a semi-related note. I would be interested to see if someone made an "incest roleplay" game. That would be a way to have a game not need a patch. Incest roleplay isn't against the rules. As "roleplay" isn't real.

So, I think the current balance will stay as is. Patreon will be the funding platform. Developers will make games. Patches will be made, if needed. And the base will keep fapping along to landlady game #165390.

All I can say is that when I had a Patreon page I was surprised by the rules. If you read them they're pretty broad, things like hosting games off-site, releasing games on Patreon that are not the true game, etc, were explicitly against the rules. My interpretation of those rules was that Patreon has wide latitude to do what they want.

 

[Joshua Tree]

All I can say is that when I had a Patreon page I was surprised by the rules. If you read them they're pretty broad, things like hosting games off-site, releasing games on Patreon that are not the true game, etc, were explicitly against the rules. My interpretation of those rules was that Patreon has wide latitude to do what they want.

They got those rules to cover their own asses when (I say when, not If, because it's just a matter of time) shit hit the fan. The more cover they got for their own asses, the less chance of being sued and dragged to court over "Timmy making mommy porn on his patreon". You see rules get iterated and changed on social media platforms all the time too. Like youtube in the "old days" was like the wild west, anything goes. These days not so much, it's about keep advertisers and payment processors happy and cover your ass from being dragged to court.

 

[Jofur]

Do you have solid evidence and proof of creators doing this?

I don't want to throw shade at people. But there are a few which get enough donations to live incredibly comfortable lives who spend 6+ months between releases that most hobbyist creators can finish in one. At that point I do think they are starting to take advantage of people's good will. Not saying that it's the norm or happens all the time like a lot of people seem to think every time there is a delay for a new release, but I think you have to be blind to not see it happen occasionally. My post was probably a bit badly written there.

Claiming creators paywall content because it get exclusive to the people who do pledge to them and not free to the ones that pirate their games is insane.

Patreon isn't a subscription platform, its a
"support platform for creators".

I don't really understand what you meant to say. I don't know where the pirate thing came from.

As for the whole support platform vs subscription platform, to me, when you start to have exclusive content, it becomes a subscription service, not a support platform. That was my point. Luckily it's not been a huge issue for porn games, I can only think of a couple I've personally played. It's more of an issue I've seen with stuff like SFM porn and YouTube creators.

 

[Deleted member 1536527]

things like hosting games off-site, releasing games on Patreon that are not the true game, etc, were explicitly against the rules.

Really? Can you please link that rule. I think that rule would depend on what the patrons are paying for exactly. Like if they are paying to get access to the patreon feed which has some bonus content, access to voting polls, access to early builds etc. I don't think in that case having the complete game publicly available off-site will be against the rules.

 

[Blaspheme]

At first, I liked the idea of crowd-funding, I was a Patreon until last year, and I did bought beta-access games on Steam. But after some unpleasant experiences, I got fed up with the whole thing. Paying for unfinished product encourage some devs (emphasis on "some") to promise unreasonable content or to unscrupulous practice.

As the OP pointed out, the system itself is perverse: the more you promise, the more Patreons you’ll have; the longer the development stage, the more money you get. When you release your game, your Patreons quit. Where’s the logic in that?

I’m also angry at the whole “VIP” system, where high-spending Patreons can add characters to the story or choose where the story is going is counter-productive and artificial. Good devs/studios are artists: for a game to be enjoyable, they need to convey emotions, to make people care about the characters and the story. You can’t have a random whale conflicting with your story telling.

As some of you have pointed out, 5$ a month end up being 60$ a year…which is the price of a brand new games by a big studio, with stunning graphics, voice-over, online content, and decent replayability. MMORPGs used to charge 10$ a month, but they provide a shitload of content, servers costs and have dozens of people working on updates…

Point being: I think the Patreon system does harm the industry. Some bad eggs make the whole industry looks bad, and as a result, some people who were inclined to give money won't do it anymore. Patreon should implement a system with a roadmap and responsibility for the devs.

 

[Joshua Tree]

I don't want to throw shade at people. But there are a few which get enough donations to live incredibly comfortable lives who spend 6+ months between releases that most hobbyist creators can finish in one. At that point I do think they are starting to take advantage of people's good will. Not saying that it's the norm or happens all the time like a lot of people seem to think every time there is a delay for a new release, but I think you have to be blind to not see it happen occasionally. My post was probably a bit badly written there.

As I said before, no matter how much income you get, you don't get more hours in a day. If you start make a game, and it take 6 months until next update. Then six months to next update there after, you see a pattern. If your support increase 10 fold between update 1 and whatever down the road, it doesn't make it any more likely, that a update will come sooner than before.

Also we got no idea where creators stand in their real life in regard of situation. There is a big difference between 17 yr old Randy making porn games as hobby while in school, and some 30+ something that have a good job, wife, kids, house, mortgage, whatever life thrown at them. Creators that post they will quit school (retarded), or quit their day job (also silly), and go full time if they get x support should never be taken serious. Bet your life on income through Patreon make adult games would a incredible dumb thing to do.

Also people have a tendency to start use words such as "not deserving" at creators once their support get at a certain level. Phrases such as "creator x deserve it more than creator y" is not that uncommon. How much money a creator get is really a non issue, because what other people spend their money on is out of your control. If you support a creator and you feel you don't get what you expected, then vote with your money..

 

[Joshua Tree]

At first, I liked the idea of crowd-funding, I was a Patreon until last year, and I did bought beta-access games on Steam. But after some unpleasant experiences, I got fed up with the whole thing. Paying for unfinished product encourage some devs (emphasis on "some") to promise unreasonable content or to unscrupulous practice.

As the OP pointed out, the system itself is perverse: the more you promise, the more Patreons you’ll have; the longer the development stage, the more money you get. When you release your game, your Patreons quit. Where’s the logic in that?

I’m also angry at the whole “VIP” system, where high-spending Patreons can add characters to the story or choose where the story is going is counter-productive and artificial. Good devs/studios are artists: for a game to be enjoyable, they need to convey emotions, to make people care about the characters and the story. You can’t have a random whale conflicting with your story telling.

As some of you have pointed out, 5$ a month end up being 60$ a year…which is the price of a brand new games by a big studio, with stunning graphics, voice-over, online content, and decent replayability. MMORPGs used to charge 10$ a month, but they provide a shitload of content, servers costs and have dozens of people working on updates…

Point being: I think the Patreon system does harm the industry. Some bad eggs make the whole industry looks bad, and as a result, some people who were inclined to give money won't do it anymore. Patreon should implement a system with a roadmap and responsibility for the devs.

Creators that make games that at large get impacted by votes and whales paying I stay away from. I want the game the creator is making not what Tom, Dick & Harry want to nut too.

Would you spend all your free time make an adult game for others to nut too without anything back out from it? While spending from your own pockets on graphic assets and everything else you would need in the process to make said game? How many of these adult games would we have around here if no monetizing at all was going on? Also, you don't have to pledge to a creator for years at end. Pledge for a couple months and move on to someone else. Eventually their creation trickle down to sites such as this for you to download regardless. It's not like the creators hold you at gunpoint yelling "pledge 4life".

The "why is there so few games meanwhile "I don't want to pay any" conflict you know. Early access games on steam come mostly from the need of the creators to get additional funding to complete the project. Some early access games also give you room to interact with the creators and help beta test and actually shape the game too.

 

[Jofur]

As I said before, no matter how much income you get, you don't get more hours in a day. If you start make a game, and it take 6 months until next update. Then six months to next update there after, you see a pattern. If your support increase 10 fold between update 1 and whatever down the road, it doesn't make it any more likely, that a update will come sooner than before.

My point was it's not actually 6/12 months worth of content. It's one or two months worth of content. It's especially noticeable if the creator released more frequent and bigger updates early in their game when they didn't have a huge audience yet. Game development takes time, I know, I've been working on and off for 2 years on my current game, but at some point it's just silly the tiny amount of progress that is made.

If you have burned out, or your day job/personal life is taking to much time away from your game, the honorable thing to do would be to halt the payments(especially if it's not your main source of income) until you sort stuff out or man up and admit you want to stop development.

 

[Ross_69]

Refer to hobby creators of adult games on Patreon as the "western adult games industry" is so wrong though...

Well, that is pretty much the state of majority of "western adult games industry" tho.

Vast majority of titles are funded by Patreon, then we have a few online porn games of questionable quality on Nutaku, and then... I think that's mostly it. There are hardly any legit game studios that create porn games in the west.

Only Japan has actual professional gamedevs developing and releasing full games.

 

[Joshua Tree]

If you have burned out, or your day job/personal life is taking to much time away from your game, the honorable thing to do would be to halt the payments(especially if it's not your main source of income) until you sort stuff out or man up and admit you want to stop development.

Do you know exactly how much spare time you end up with in a month to do with as you please? I don't.
If a creator spend the time he/she got available to work on their project. Why would I penalize them with withheld support? The danger sign is when they go all quiet, no sign of life, or updates what so ever. As long as I know they tinkering with their projects I don't really care the time it take. It's not a race..

 

[Blaspheme]

The "why is there so few games meanwhile "I don't want to pay any" conflict you know.

I understand devs are human beings too and need money and I do want to pay for my games. But the actual Patreon system doesn't work for me, because it's solely based on trust in the dev and once bitten, twice shy. There could be a biding roadmap to ensure the consistency of the game development.

I'm a professional freelance translator, when I accept a job, I sign a contract with extremely strict deadlines; when things don’t work as intended, I have to find a solution (most of the time involving an ungodly amount of coffee). And I get pay at the end of the project; sometimes, it means 4-6 months and a million words done before I can send an invoice...

 

[Joshua Tree]

I understand devs are human beings too and need money and I do want to pay for my games. But the actual Patreon system doesn't work for me, because it's solely based on trust in the dev and once bitten, twice shy. There could be a biding roadmap to ensure the consistency of the game development.

I'm a professional freelance translator, when I accept a job, I sign a contract with extremely strict deadlines; when things don’t work as intended, I have to find a solution (most of the time involving an ungodly amount of coffee). And I get pay at the end of the project; sometimes, it means 4-6 months and a million words done before I can send an invoice...

And what would you feel if someone just told you to hire some extra people to speed it up? You wouldn't mind to share some of your pay to make that happen would you?

If you want to pay for your games. Then just wait until they end up on Steam once they completed (whenever, and if possible), and by them there? Or tip the jar of the creator once it's completed. A couple months of the highest tier pledge should do it? No one forces people to pledge forever to these things.

I bought full games released on steam, boxed in a store or whatever. That let me down too, but it didn't put me off from buy more games later. It just made me more cautious in regard of research what I would be buying. I rather wait for reviews than buy into pre-orders. Whenever I buy into early access games, at least I do that with eyes wide open and expectations is more along the whatever happens, happens.

 

[rocketMonkey]

Patreon is a middleman, yes, but they are also the reason why the western porn game industry is stagnating. But people here aren't going to acknowledge that and will defend Patreon to their dying breath because a cock in the hand is worth two in the bush.

The reason why the western porn game industry is 'stagnating', as you say, is because there wasn't much of one to begin with.

Games/visual novels can be tagged R-18 and sold online and in stores with little-to-no issues in the Japanese market.
Meanwhile, in the West, when games are rated M (Mature 17+) or similar AND if they are porn games, it's much more difficult to find these in physical stores.

The (only real) alternative for a Western adult-game developer is to sell online. The problem is that few publishers exist for porn games (e.g. Nutaku), and few marketplaces exist for porn games (Steam only accepted adult games very recently).

So again, one of the few options for a Western adult-game developer is to publish their game on Patreon...



Now imagine, you are a game developer, would you rather spend the next 6 months building a non-adult game that can appeal to a bigger audience and has a higher success rate for you, financially.

or would you rather slave away the next 6 months working on an adult-game that only appeals to a subsegment of the gaming market, with little promise of even recouping your costs?



This dilemma is why established game developers don't go into the Western adult-game industry; there's no money to be made there.



Is the current Western adult game saturated with a lot of subpar games and subpar developers? Perhaps, that's because (a lack of) money attracts (a lack of) talent.

A platform like Patreon enables a flow of funds to indie and hobbyist developers, who, realistically, are the only ones who will develop these porn games.

So I would argue that Patreon is more a solution to the problem, rather than a part of the problem itself.

Could Patreon do better to aid the expansion of the Western porn industry? Sure they could. But remember, it's not their freaking job. It's not in their mission statement. After all, they didn't build the platform specifically for porn game developers.

 

[morphnet]

And there still isn't, but that's besides the point. You see causation, I see just correlation.

You're skipping a lot of historical context. PC gaming got its start from the video game crash of 1983. It wasn't until Sony and Microsoft entered the scene with the PS2 and Xbox that PC gaming started stagnating and needed Valve and Steam to come in to save it. I'd say that Patreon has more in common with Games For Windows than Steam, but the situation as a whole is really pretty apples to oranges.

I'm not saying Patreon is sat there, twisting it's mustache and cackling evilly, gleeful that it's actions have caused the porn game industry to be stillborn. As with most cases of corporations causing problem, the problems stem from not giving a shit more than malice. You say there would be no defending them if they set out to be the sole supporter of game devs, the fact of the matter is they did by virtue of

You must be registered to see the links

. Just because they might kind of wish that the creative class didn't include pornographic materials doesn't really help their case.

The problem is you keep saying "game" dev's as you did in your title but we are talking about "porn game" dev's here and not gaming dev's as a whole. That is like using "art" so compare the mona lisa and tatoos, even then tatoos are more widely accepted than porn games. They set out to get the general market and are now dealing with fringe groups from the different markets useing them too. So their payment model works very well for the mainstream groups of artists, film makers, musicians etc. If it doesn't work well for the porn game side of things and does work well with all the others then maybe you should look elsewhere for the problem, like people supporting bad habits.

 

[big numbers]

The power of cognitive dissonance is quite a remarkable thing.