Unity Price for Freedom: Avarice [Build 37.2] [Team Dead Deer]

[TheOtherDragonborn]

Ok, must have been a bug on my end. Sorry if I came off harsh about it, I really like her character. If she'd said, "Hey, by the way, I'm a demon, wanna have sex?" I'd have said, cool, let's do it, but she turned all evil. It kinda made me sad/angry.
Other than that, the game looks great so far.

Aren't those understandable (and intentional) reactions to her revealing herself as a demon though? As a plot device, it clearly communicates that she doesn't value you past what you can do for her (at least initially), which isn't an uncommon theme in this universe.

Admittedly, it does have a distinctly different flavor than the rest of the other intimate scenes and might put some people off if they think that non-con will be predominant. Given the game's clear efforts toward story and lore depth up to that point though, I think it serves its purpose to intrigue the player long enough to meet the primary companions.

 

[Kristovpher]

Aren't those understandable (and intentional) reactions to her revealing herself as a demon though? As a plot device, it clearly communicates that she doesn't value you past what you can do for her (at least initially), which isn't an uncommon theme in this universe.

Admittedly, it does have a distinctly different flavor than the rest of the other intimate scenes and might put some people off if they think that non-con will be predominant. Given the game's clear efforts toward story and lore depth up to that point though, I think it serves its purpose to intrigue the player long enough to meet the primary companions.

Except there are people who this kind of scene sprung on them out of nowhere would be extremely harmful. That's why we have tags, to let people know what they are getting into. I probably still wouldn't have liked it if the rape tag had been there, but I wouldn't have had the reaction I did. Imagine that for someone who had experienced it in real life?

 

[Horakoeri]

It's a pity there is no crack for version 29.1 of the game.

Its a pity people have a lack of either shame or patience.

 

[Axismundi]

Except there are people who this kind of scene sprung on them out of nowhere would be extremely harmful. That's why we have tags, to let people know what they are getting into. I probably still wouldn't have liked it if the rape tag had been there, but I wouldn't have had the reaction I did. Imagine that for someone who had experienced it in real life?

The thing to remember with tags is that they are more for advertisement than warning (though they can certainly be used as such). And as someone who likes non-con in any form in their porn games, that scene didn't even register as anything that would warrant that type of tag. A little forced, to be sure, but if I was looking for the rape tag specifically and this is all the game had, I would be extremely disappointed. On the flip side, if someone was trying to avoid the tag and it was applied to the game for that one scene, then a lot of people would miss this gem of a game because they'd think the game would have heavy themes of rape.

MrCrazy brought up a good point in the major/minor tag system, but I feel like that could bloat the tag system way out of proportion with all the changes to the tag UI. The only solution I can think of is requesting another tag like "light non-con" or something similar.

As always, when you're downloading porn games from a pirate site, you're kind of rolling the dice on what you get when you press download.

 

[TheOtherDragonborn]

Except there are people who this kind of scene sprung on them out of nowhere would be extremely harmful. That's why we have tags, to let people know what they are getting into. I probably still wouldn't have liked it if the rape tag had been there, but I wouldn't have had the reaction I did. Imagine that for someone who had experienced it in real life?

You make a fair point, though I also think a tagging system needs to have some flexibility to remain useful. Regarding the written rules (which do currently infer that a fetish needs to be predominant to be tagged), the current tags seem appropriate. I also think most people use tags to filter for games with certain themes, which would be misleading in this case.

Compared to games that have that tag on f95, the single scene with Lady wolf is incredibly tame (there is no violence involved beyond restraint, and the non-con is genuinely arguable by the end). The game's more violent themes are also made abundantly clear through the combat before that point, which I hope would give some warning to someone with that history playing an adult game. Maybe a good compromise would be to add a warning to the OP for that first scene? I still think that might be unnecessary, but given the game's massive reach and appeal, it isn't unreasonable to think that might cause others grief.

I hope that scene didn't sour the rest of the game for you, as the companion relationships are some of the most genuinely satisfying I have seen in games. I genuinely wish Hiho could be a party member in a game like Baldur's gate 3.

 

[TheOtherDragonborn]

The thing to remember with tags is that they are more for advertisement than warning (though they can certainly be used as such). And as someone who likes non-con in any form in their porn games, that scene didn't even register as anything that would warrant that type of tag. A little forced, to be sure, but if I was looking for the rape tag specifically and this is all the game had, I would be extremely disappointed. On the flip side, if someone was trying to avoid the tag and it was applied to the game for that one scene, then a lot of people would miss this gem of a game because they'd think the game would have heavy themes of rape.

MrCrazy brought up a good point in the major/minor tag system, but I feel like that could bloat the tag system way out of proportion with all the changes to the tag UI. The only solution I can think of is requesting another tag like "light non-con" or something similar.

As always, when you're downloading porn games from a pirate site, you're kind of rolling the dice on what you get when you press download.

That moment when someone responds to a post just before you, saying the exact same things but better worded, but just late enough that it doesn't load until you finish writing your own response.

 

[HeroicHeretic]

Yeah well I know some survivors of abuse, overall, I think it's... kind of a bad choice as first ( potential ) sex scene?
It's prolly partly due to the dev team being less experienced with entry and gameflow in video games back then, but.. I dunno, maybe it's time to change the beginning a bit, put that scene waaaaay back, or make it VERY CLEARLY avoidable ( Without stabbing ), anything, really.

Just think it's a very unlucky scene to be pretty much the first thing you see.

Or you could add mild tags in the actual game description in the OP, like "Beware, there may be some ( avoidable ) not entirely consensual scenes in this game".

 

[MrCrazy123]

Yeah well I know some survivors of abuse, overall, I think it's... kind of a bad choice as first ( potential ) sex scene?
It's prolly partly due to the dev team being less experienced with entry and gameflow in video games, but.. I dunno, maybe it's time to change the beginning a bit, put that scene waaaaay back, or make it VERY CLEARLY avoidable ( Without stabbing ), anything, really.

Just think it's a very unlucky scene to be pretty much the first thing you see.

Or you could add mild tags in the actual game description in the OP, like "Beware, there may be some ( avoidable ) not entirely consensual scenes in this game".

I do agree with this person despite my previous post on this specific issue. At that point it's not really about tags but about content warning that could potentially bother some people who have already had difficult lives.

Which is an entirely different (and valid) issue.

 

[Axismundi]

I don't think you could push back the scene. The allure of the interaction is that the main character is being sexually taken advantage of by someone he thought he could trust. If you're already aware of what Lady Wolf is, then it loses a lot of impact, and the developer did give a way out if the situation wasn't your cup of tea. It's an important scene since it sets up the starting plot and "antagonist" (or primary love interest, if you're like me). And putting a warning for a one-off scene (that has an out) can lead to the same problem as the tag situation. Or having something pop up right before the scene to inform you of the incoming situation would ruin the twist.

The big thing to note is that they do give you an out. If stabbing your would-be assailant is also too much for you, then the game might be a bit too dark on the whole for your tastes. While almost all the other sexual interactions are (mostly) sweet, the tone of the story is filled with violence, deceit, and the price of war.

I understand where you're coming from. But all alternative situations might give people the wrong idea of the game or ruin any twists. It sounds like this might be a deal-breaker for you (and that's completely ok; not every game is for every person). We've all had games that tickled our fancy, only to not be what we were looking for. The only thing you can really do in that situation is move on and try to find something else that aligns more with your taste.

 

[HeroicHeretic]

Look, I'm sorry, I know this is a porn site... but if a story needs potential sexual abuse / rape to "get a point across", it's just bad writing. I know rape as part of "intricate stories" is all the rage ever since Game of Thrones, but come the fuck on, you can write a good story and get your points and atmosphere across without RAPE.

Yeah, I know this game CERTAINLY isn't the worst offender in this department, but really, "bUt wE nEeD pOtEnTiAl rApE tO dRiVe hOmE oUr pOiNt" as excuse NOT to possibly rework a, in comparison to pretty much all other scenes, questionable scene? Rape as plot twist? Yeahno.

Nope. I mean you can use that argument, sure, but I won't buy it, and I'd insist it's just shit writing ( Especially when comparing it to some of the well written wholesomeness ). Not that I need to. I can't force anyone do to anything anyway.

 

[Valaska]

Look, I'm sorry, I know this is a porn site... but if a story needs potential sexual abuse / rape to "get a point across", it's just bad writing. I know rape as part of "intricate stories" is all the rage ever since Game of Thrones, but come the fuck on, you can write a good story and get your points and atmosphere across without RAPE.

Yeah, I know this game CERTAINLY isn't the worst offender in this department, but really, "bUt wE nEeD pOtEnTiAl rApE tO dRiVe hOmE oUr pOiNt" as excuse NOT to possibly rework a, in comparison to pretty much all other scenes, questionable scene? Rape as plot twist? Yeahno.

Nope. I mean you can use that argument, sure, but I won't buy it, and I'd insist it's just shit writing ( Especially when comparing it to some of the well written wholesomeness ). Not that I need to. I can't force anyone do to anything anyway.

I mean, I guess that means we're just a shittily written game then. I'm willing to accept that before censorship of what we can or cannot write, thematically, narrative elements, etc.

 

[HeroicHeretic]

Yeah right, disregard -everything- I said and just focus on that one bit that hurt your feelings.
Completely deny even the slightest possibility that the first writing your team has done might NOT have been their best, and has since improved.
Deny even the slightest possibility that someone, at some point, wanted an extra edgy and dramatic intro for the attention, or had a lack of better ideas than rape.

I've mentioned that other content is well written in the same fucking post.

Violence, torture, mature content in general doesn't equal bad writing. But some things do. And the general trend of adding -some- kind of rape or at least suggested rape because otherwise your series, film or game isn't dark enough, is definitely.... questionable to say the least, and not a testament to quality writing.

But honestly completely disregarding any constructive criticsm or suggestions in the last dozen posts in this thread as a developer and deciding to be butthurt about a specific part of it is kind of a weak move.

But be like that if it helps you cope, go ahead, knock yourself out.

 

[DrLizardman]

SO I am a bit confused, do I need the walkthrough if I don't have the full game? I was following quest in order but the 2nd quest after the prologue requires a quest that is patron only.

 

[Kristovpher]

It is hard to adjudicate. I found the scene very rapey, the violence was implied heavily that if you didn't do what she wants, she'd kill you. I went back and found the point where you can reject her, you essentially have to be "no fuck you" from the very moment of her reveal, stab her, and have her completely ignore it. Then afterwards if you reveal what she is to your friend it's game over as she kills you both. I've gotten to the town with her threatening me again, the only reason I'm considering continuing to play is because people are saying it's good.
Can anyone let me know if these arbitrary game-overs continue throughout the game?

Regarding the tags. I've thought for a while that a minor/major tag would be good, considering the complaints about some tags I see in many games, ie if a game has even one scene that is vaguely NTR some people won't play the game. Other tags I've specifically played a game for and found it was one scene.

 

[Axismundi]

But honestly completely disregarding any constructive criticsm or suggestions in the last dozen posts in this thread as a developer and deciding to be butthurt about a specific part of it is kind of a weak move.

But be like that if it helps you cope, go ahead, knock yourself out.

To be fair, you're not giving constructive criticism but requesting changes to or the removal of content that you don't like. I personally love the Lady Wolf scene as a narrative point and is what got me interested in the story (its the hook, so I hope so), and while the changes you want would improve the game for you, they would lessen the game for me (one man's trash and all that). The things that can be considered constructive, like the major/minor tag system, are out of the developer's control, and should be directed at F95 itself. so there's no point in getting angry at them for that.

 

[deck]

We understand the non-con aspect of this scene can be damaging for some people, that's why we recently added the stabbing opt-out. It's the first dialogue choice and should be pretty obvious, but maybe we should add more options to stab her later if you change your mind? Like others have said, having any kind of warning would ruin this twist that establishes Lady Wolf's character, so we don't plan to change the prologue much at this point.

Then afterwards if you reveal what she is to your friend it's game over as she kills you both. I've gotten to the town with her threatening me again, the only reason I'm considering continuing to play is because people are saying it's good.
Can anyone let me know if these arbitrary game-overs continue throughout the game?

Those game over are pretty much all in the prologue (except when you lose in combat of course). We plan to have an actual fight with LW if you reveal her identity to Sa'id, instead of a boring game over like now.

SO I am a bit confused, do I need the walkthrough if I don't have the full game? I was following quest in order but the 2nd quest after the prologue requires a quest that is patron only.

You can tell which quest are patreon only in the "requirements" part of the walkthough. All companions first quests are free, and quite a few others.

 

[Valaska]

Yeah right, disregard -everything- I said and just focus on that one bit that hurt your feelings.
Completely deny even the slightest possibility that the first writing your team has done might NOT have been their best, and has since improved.
Deny even the slightest possibility that someone, at some point, wanted an extra edgy and dramatic intro for the attention, or had a lack of better ideas than rape.

I've mentioned that other content is well written in the same fucking post.

Violence, torture, mature content in general doesn't equal bad writing. But some things do. And the general trend of adding -some- kind of rape or at least suggested rape because otherwise your series, film or game isn't dark enough, is definitely.... questionable to say the least, and not a testament to quality writing.

But honestly completely disregarding any constructive criticsm or suggestions in the last dozen posts in this thread as a developer and deciding to be butthurt about a specific part of it is kind of a weak move.

But be like that if it helps you cope, go ahead, knock yourself out.

It's the first dialogue choice and should be pretty obvious, but maybe we should add more options to stab her later if you change your mind? Like others have said, having any kind of warning would ruin this twist that establishes Lady Wolf's character, so we don't plan to change the prologue much at this point.

So first and foremost, the current narrative through is where it will remain. But to addend what Deck said, in the narrative department, the scene will not be changing further beyond grammatical and proofreading. There will be a complete NSFW-filtered version of the game, though, which will not depict the scene itself.

Even in that version, the scene will have played out the same, the effects will be defined and the narrative will move forward as if the scene happened, though again it won't be depicted in that SFW version of the game.

It is how it is. The Main Character lived through that experience, he is helpless against her, and is uncertain if anyone may or may not be her at any time. It is why he is remaining under heel. Redic is either a survivor of a traumatic event, a man who was laid low after fighting back and shown he is helpless, or a man who was into it but showed full well that it was not for him and that LW is going to use him for her benefit.

Is it dark? Yes. Can you make it less dark by being a more willing Redic? Mildy. Can you stab her and stop the scene fullstop? Yes.

Might you be a bit too afraid that she'll rip you to pieces if you resist her... yeah, those feelings are appropriate to that situation. And while I empathize with you, having gone through CSA myself as a child in which I defended myself, I will not be removing this narrative theme from the game.

 

[Chad54321]

Maybe instead of changing it, you can add something to it.
Adding the ability to stab her is a good alternative, but what if we could do something more... subtle?
For example, throughout the prologue you can find hints that Lady Wolf isn't who she says she is (the lock she busted, her reaction to you killing the large amount of bandits at the entrance, her taking the book you found). So what if the third option isn't to oppose her, but to impress her?

For example, in that situation instead of submitting or attacking, you show her how perceptive and cunning you are.
So if you noticed all these things, and acted in certain ways, this could culminate in that scene as more of a persuasion moment from games like fallout new Vegas.
My favorite moments from that game were the dialogue choices you had in confrontations,
the one against Launius, Ulysses, Joshua Graham and the big MT scientists. Specifically Ulysses if you find his tapes, where you need to remember what he said in them in order to persuade him.

Something like that could be a way to get the scene without it being too forceful; You look at the busted lock, you lie to Sa'id and say that you broke the lock instead, you fight the bandits at the entrance and maybe make other choices, and all of those can add points in an invisible meter that when achieved unlock a dialogue option in Lady Wolfs scene, in that dialogue you have to say the correct things to impress her. If you fail to impress her, you continue as you normally would. But if you succeed?
You get an alternative's scene where instead of being a bit forceful, she's more suggestive then dominant about it, but she lets you opt out if you don't want to.

You're still forced to work for her, but she might respect you a bit more if you continue the scene with her.

That's just my two cents about it, still a great scene to me.

 

[Valaska]

Maybe instead of changing it, you can add something to it.
Adding the ability to stab her is a good alternative, but what if we could do something more... subtle?
For example, throughout the prologue you can find hints that Lady Wolf isn't who she says she is (the lock she busted, her reaction to you killing the large amount of bandits at the entrance, her taking the book you found). So what if the third option isn't to oppose her, but to impress her?

For example, in that situation instead of submitting or attacking, you show her how perceptive and cunning you are.
So if you noticed all these things, and acted in certain ways, this could culminate in that scene as more of a persuasion moment from games like fallout new Vegas.
My favorite moments from that game were the dialogue choices you had in confrontations,
the one against Launius, Ulysses, Joshua Graham and the big MT scientists. Specifically Ulysses if you find his tapes, where you need to remember what he said in them in order to persuade him.

Something like that could be a way to get the scene without it being too forceful; You look at the busted lock, you lie to Sa'id and say that you broke the lock instead, you fight the bandits at the entrance and maybe make other choices, and all of those can add points in an invisible meter that when achieved unlock a dialogue option in Lady Wolfs scene, in that dialogue you have to say the correct things to impress her. If you fail to impress her, you continue as you normally would. But if you succeed?
You get an alternative's scene where instead of being a bit forceful, she's more suggestive then dominant about it, but she lets you opt out if you don't want to.

You're still forced to work for her, but she might respect you a bit more if you continue the scene with her.

That's just my two cents about it, still a great scene to me.

Something like that might work but the reason Clementine does what she does is because Redic was seeing through her. Which is extraordinarily rare for her, but Redic didn't/couldn't understand the full breadth of it. Just something was off about Clementine. So the reason she did what she did, so fast, was because she was in fact impressed and saw through Redci's suspicion.

Which is another element of... yes, Redic plays the game and plays it well, but he is the Rook/Bishop while Lady Wolf is the grandmaster who controls the game... though I can take that suggestion into consideration. She is looking to put him into place and test him and his character to see if she is worth engineering/working with.

Sa'id failed her test, Redic is the next best thing.

I think with the second scene and the rest ofthe content I think it's shown she gives him a lot of leash. She stays mostly out of his business otherwise.

 

[Chad54321]

Something like that might work but the reason Clementine does what she does is because Redic was seeing through her. Which is extraordinarily rare for her, but Redic didn't/couldn't understand the full breadth of it. Just something was off about Clementine. So the reason she did what she did, so fast, was because she was in fact impressed and saw through Redci's suspicion.

Which is another element of... yes, Redic plays the game and plays it well, but he is the Rook/Bishop while Lady Wolf is the grandmaster who controls the game... though I can take that suggestion into consideration. She is looking to put him into place and test him and his character to see if she is worth engineering/working with.

Right, but impressing her in what way?

There is something I noticed about Lady Wolf, she is a master at strategic thinking and manipulation, but is vulnerable to blunt guesswork.
Specifically, When Redic makes an educated guess and "hovers over target", Lady Wolf has a harder time concealing her reactions. For example, when asking her why she would need Moira's support against Kimber, trying to extract information from her fails, but making a correct educated guess actually helps Redic catch something from her reaction.

Or

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So if Redic takes her by surprise like that, and impresses her more than she expected, and show that he is willing to be at least somewhat receptive to her, it might be possible for her to decide to take a different approach to Redic. So she might try something more subtle then simple submission In order to increase the chance of him wanting to work for her of his own desire, and to reduce the chance of him wanting quit working for her if she viewed him as a possible and potential asset.

After all, even a trained dog might bite the hand that feeds if bad treatment is all he knows.

I think with the second scene and the rest ofthe content I think it's shown she gives him a lot of leash. She stays mostly out of his business otherwise.

I think this also shows' how her opinion of Redic changes throughout the story.
The more Redic achieves, the more he impresses her. And this changes the way she treats him, from a tool to a potential partner. That's why I suggested that idea, to show the potential "planting of the seed" (Giggity) for that path.
Because honestly, there is a lot more to Lady Wolf that nobody sees. And I'd like to some more stuff like that to be in the story, since she's a pretty interesting character when you dig deeper in it.