Problems working with artists

[Ambir]

Thank you for your explanation. I see now that I was wrong. You're not indies at all, you're just a bunch of soulless corpos who haven't become organized yet. It's nothing but risk management and ROI for you. No wonder artists want nothing to do with western porn games.

You are wrong.

I understand why you would view me as such, but I very much desire to make the best games that I can for my players.
In fact, the entire reason why I started making adult games was that I felt that there were not enough good adult games, and I wanted to make good games for everyone to enjoy. It's a bit of an ambitious goal, especially given how inexperienced I was, but it's what drove me to make games, and I still believe in that vision.

Edit: In fact, I kinda lied. Yes, I want to make good games for others to enjoy, but the person I seek to impress is myself first and foremost. No matter what other people think, I will not be satisfied until I make games that I myself deem good. It's just how it is, you can't always please others. If I make things I believe are good, then at the very least, I will have reached my objectives. Should that not prove to be enough, then I will move on to some other occupation.

There is that saying... "you get what you pay for".. If you want to comission work. Make sure you flesh out what you want so the arist know exactly what they sign up for. Also don't go with the cheapest offer you can find. Check out their reputation and try get some referals too.

Comission artwork for a entire game wouldn't come at the cost of several hundred USD, it would come at the cost of several thousand if the artist is serious enough. Also don't pay up front.

I agree with this. Good art is expensive. If you underpay your artists, they will probably bail.

 

[morphnet]

No it isn't, it just flat out doesn't exist. Market implies people buying and selling things, which is not the same as giving donations.

You mean buying and selling to the general public like steam has only just started to do? and platforms like itch.io that sell games not just accept donations? That sounds like a market.

quick edit : a link from this site listing some of the game from here for SALE on steam.
https://f95zone.to/threads/well-known-games-from-here-on-steam.35272/

 

[anne O'nymous]

No it isn't, it just flat out doesn't exist. Market implies people buying and selling things, which is not the same as giving donations.

So what Winged Cloud and Winter Wolves, to name only the two must known here, aren't from the West anymore, or perhaps that they never sold a single title ? And what about publishers, like MangaGamer by example ?

 

[toolkitxx]

So I have been working towards making an adult porn parody game for a few months now, but I have run into a bit of a snag: Artists doesn't want to draw what they've been commissioned to. How common is this, or do I just have bad luck?

For reference, I get together with the artist and talk about what I'd expect of them and what I'd be paying them (commission prices, not patreon shares, since that is nonexistent). And that I need them for a long term project. All of this is agreed upon. Up until they quit.

I had one artist who quit, leaving me with a bunch of paid artwork that has absolutely 0 value to me now since I want it all to look to be drawn from the same artist. Then I got two artists who could emulate eachother's artstyles somewhat well, starting over from the beginning. One artist quit and the other is AWOL. And the fourth artist who is a background artist that worked at the same time as the previous two, did the same.

Is this just... A thing that commonly happens? I am several hundred dollars down in commission fees, and all I want is art for this game that I'm making. Like, the background artist's work is the only thing I can save, since at least that can be emulated a bit more easier (and won't draw the same kind of attention as the character art anyhow).
I have always been against paying artists in patreon shares when there isn't any successful patreon already ongoing, but I have sort of learned that paying them commission fees is just fucking dangerous...

Your problem isnt really related to artists per se - but how you approach the entire process here.

This is a business decision thus it requires professional setups. Professional means eye to eye , contracts - the whole shebang. Even contracts will not make you 100% safe from a disgruntled person (Breeding Season comes to mind) but will at least minimize your losses in cases of non-delivery or disagreement about what was delivered. It is simply very naive how some people deal with this.

There is a huge difference between a random person that creates art and a professional artist for hire. The latter will not even fight a contract (simple

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)- quite the contrary usually. They will appreciate a contract since it also saves them from spending needless hours and energy on the wrong stuff. If you cant afford real contracts and/or cant afford to pay the real bucks for an artist you need to revisit your business model.

P.S. Ideally you should look for graphics designers who also provide general art. They are professional enough to understand your needs and are used to client relationships over periods and not just one shot agreements.

 

[anne O'nymous]

There is a huge difference between a random person that creates art and a professional artist for hire. The latter will not even fight a contract (simple

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)- quite the contrary usually. They will appreciate a contract since it also saves them from spending needless hours and energy on the wrong stuff.

A random person can sometimes be someone who want to start a professional career, but want to see if he can effectively deal with it before he quit his job. Thus, they aren't necessarily all bad (I know, it's not what you said). But this doesn't mean that one shouldn't sign an effective contract even with them.
After all, talking about contract is also a way to not loose time with people who don't worse it. When you approach the artist, you insist on the fact that you want a contract, and look at the way he will react. Those who aren't reliable know it, and they'll do their best to make you change your mind and don't pass this contract. And you, you'll just stop loosing your time with this person and search someone else.

 

[IvoryOwl]

If you want to ensure that they do not bail for whatever reason then you need a contract, nothing else will really work unless by some miracle you find a hard working one.

I fail to see how a contract would improve things...

Let's assume things go wrong, even with a signed paper. Taking them to court for bailing on their contract requires a lawyer and a lawyer requires money. Is it really worth it the time, money and headache to press charges in this situation? The OP is already several hundred dollars short from the commissions (gone wrong), I don't think he wants to spend more than necessary...

I guess I can kind of see what Anne O'nymous means - pressing for a contract will make some think twice before committing, as there are legal repercussions involved. However, if the OP has no real intentions of following it through then that's just a bluff. If they call you out on your intentions and bail anyway, not a whole lot you can do...

Also, what do you do in a situation where the artist is from a different country? How would you even take them to court? I reckon it's easier to press charges against a company than a lone individual, especially one from another country, who is subject to different laws and regulations...

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

Is it really worth it the time

Yes, if the project is big enough.
Also you don't need those who will bail from a contract, they will more than likely be useless anyway.

where the artist is from a different country?

Depending on how big the project is, you or them can board a plane and in a couple hours signing stuff together.

How would you even take them to court?

If it's not in some boonies, easily enough. There is more than one court in the world.

subject to different laws and regulations...

That's what lawyers are for.

As you suspected it may not be worth doing unless a lot of money is involved, but it is still an effective method to make people do the shit they're supposed to. For small projects it will be more effective to either learn shit themselves, or keep meticulously looking for a suitable individual. (which may or may not take you forever)
Or maybe one could try local art schools, maybe you can fish for some newbies willing to try their skills?
Knowing a person in RL surely will increase their reliability... in theory at least.

 

[toolkitxx]

I fail to see how a contract would improve things...

Let's assume things go wrong, even with a signed paper. Taking them to court for bailing on their contract requires a lawyer and a lawyer requires money. Is it really worth it the time, money and headache to press charges in this situation? The OP is already several hundred dollars short from the commissions (gone wrong), I don't think he wants to spend more than necessary...

I guess I can kind of see what Anne O'nymous means - pressing for a contract will make some think twice before committing, as there are legal repercussions involved. However, if the OP has no real intentions of following it through then that's just a bluff. If they call you out on your intentions and bail anyway, not a whole lot you can do...

Also, what do you do in a situation where the artist is from a different country? How would you even take them to court? I reckon it's easier to press charges against a company than a lone individual, especially one from another country, who is subject to different laws and regulations...

A contract has many forms. Even the agreement to follow the rules here can be called a form of contract. I even linked an easy example of a very basic contract in my earlier post for the artist. Contracts require negotiation - another thing professionals understand (like anne O'nymous ) which is actually the part where most things fall apart. Once a half-decent agreement is found both sides need this contract simply to document the actual agreement as the human brain tends to forget or has a tendency to modify the info - a brain is not a standardized storage unfortunately.

Your question shows what i called 'naive' for developers in my earlier post . Any time money changes forth and back you have a proper business transaction. So you have to think in Business terms and processes which means: this stuff has to be thought of before you actually do it and not in the process or afterwards. People have moved wares by ship and airplane etc for many many years and there are international laws that also control this for digital stuff. That is what you pay a lawyer for - to ensure that you have someone who actually understands all the legal implications of your dealings.

 

[Joshua Tree]

A contract make both parties held accountable. Breaking said contract is a good way for that party to end up with a bad reputation, and get harder to enter similar in the future. It get harder to refute claims of "he just mad, disgruntled, etc etc". On the other hand, people that just out to scam you doesn't really care if the monetary value not that big, bcause they know for you to do something about that, it will end up cost you more in legal fee's than it's worth. That is why it's so important to find serous artists to start with, and then pay the increased cost for doing so.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I fail to see how a contract would improve things...

As I said, at first it improve things by filtering.

Let's assume things go wrong, even with a signed paper. Taking them to court for bailing on their contract requires a lawyer and a lawyer requires money.

Well firstly this "signed paper" reduce the risk for things to go wrong. And this reduction of the risk cost you nothing.
Secondly a lawyer is just a professional like any other. You pass a contract with him, and this contract can perfectly say that you'll pay it once the case closed. I don't know for your country, but it's relatively common in Europe ; after all, he's a lawyer, he know exactly what to do to force you to keep your part of the contract.
Thirdly, the judgment can perfectly include the payment of your expenses ; if you win of course, and since there's a contract and you've a lawyer, I don't see why you wouldn't win.
Fourthly, the need for a lawyer also apply for the artist you pass a contract with.
Fifthly, like Joshua Tree said, an artist that have been sued because he didn't respected a contract will have a hard time to continue working as freelancer.
Sixth, at worse you do like if you haven't past a contract with him, therefore nothing. Because yes, it's still an option. Obviously it's a bit useless, but it's not because you past a contract with him, that you have the obligation to force the artist to respect it and sue him if he don't.

I guess I can kind of see what Anne O'nymous means - pressing for a contract will make some think twice before committing, as there are legal repercussions involved. However, if the OP has no real intentions of following it through then that's just a bluff. If they call you out on your intentions and bail anyway, not a whole lot you can do...

And so what ? The worse that can happen for OP is to end loosing again the money he gave to the artist. And that's all. But in the same time, having a contract will limit the risk for this worse to happen.
It's like a seat belt. It's not because you use it, that you'll not die if your car crash. But because you use it, the risk for you to die are lower.
And I guess that, after having been scammed third time, it's all what OP ask for, a way to lower the risk to be scammed again.

 

[Anorak]

Well this thread got away from me a little bit. I haven't signed any actual papers or contracts, but made sure me and the artists understood eachother and what was expected. There were requirements on my end too of course which I strived to uphold. I do respect artists a great deal.

And as to if artists keep leaving me is my own fault, that is something that's of course a possibility, though I don't consider myself that difficult to work with. And I am paying them fairly, most of them came to me with their own comission prices that I followed. I've even paid in advance for several of them, and I try to do what I can to help them out.
It just feels like how you think you can do something, but when it comes down to it you procrastinate until you just won't do it anymore. I would know that feeling well, I've felt it often. Not in regards to this game however...

So now I'm stuck with artwork from several different artists, only the background art is what I can still use, and several hundred dollars short.

 

[toolkitxx]

Well this thread got away from me a little bit. I haven't signed any actual papers or contracts, but made sure me and the artists understood eachother and what was expected. There were requirements on my end too of course which I strived to uphold. I do respect artists a great deal.

And as to if artists keep leaving me is my own fault, that is something that's of course a possibility, though I don't consider myself that difficult to work with. And I am paying them fairly, most of them came to me with their own comission prices that I followed. I've even paid in advance for several of them, and I try to do what I can to help them out.
It just feels like how you think you can do something, but when it comes down to it you procrastinate until you just won't do it anymore. I would know that feeling well, I've felt it often. Not in regards to this game however...

So now I'm stuck with artwork from several different artists, only the background art is what I can still use, and several hundred dollars short.

The 'understanding' part was what I have been mainly referring to. I was born and raised in one country but spend most of my adult life in different countries. That has really taught me one thing in particular: Even if you seem to speak the same language you will not have the same understanding of things. Languages are filled with words that cant be tied down to a singular fixed meaning. Some languages are more complicated in that matter than others. But even languages that are considered to be great for technical purposes due to their large amount of vocabulary fail in the same way.

When you ask me or someone else 'do you understand?' or 'do you agree?' we will in more than 99% of all cases have differences in what we actually understood and agreed on

 

[Ambir]

anne O'nymous toolkitxx

Just one thing to keep in mind. Most starting devs don't have huge projects. When your total budget is around 3000$ to make a game, it can be quite hard to get the money to deal with contract stuff. So while I 100% agree with the idea of getting a contrat, I think that for most people, aside from drafting it themselves, there is not much else they can do, because their projects are simply not big enough, and they just don't have the means to deal with legal matters.

And as to if artists keep leaving me is my own fault, that is something that's of course a possibility, though I don't consider myself that difficult to work with. And I am paying them fairly, most of them came to me with their own comission prices that I followed. I've even paid in advance for several of them, and I try to do what I can to help them out.
It just feels like how you think you can do something, but when it comes down to it you procrastinate until you just won't do it anymore. I would know that feeling well, I've felt it often. Not in regards to this game however...

I understand that it can be hard, but please don't fall into the trap of thinking that all artists are bad. These were not the right people for you, and just as they were not right for you, you were not right for them. It's easy to fall into this idea that we are perfect and that the others are to blame (or at least, to be unable to figure out where we went wrong and to quickly dismiss that idea and to just put the entire blame on the others), however I believe mistakes like this one are good to learn, so it is best to do your utmost to learn from it and see what you can do to make things better next time. It might take you time to figure out where you personally went wrong, but it is worth giving it some thought, I promise.

So now I'm stuck with artwork from several different artists, only the background art is what I can still use, and several hundred dollars short.

When making projects, you will face tons of problems. They just pile up ceaselessly. You can't get stopped just because something went wrong. What you need to do is figure out what is at the root of the problem and solve that.

Here, your problem is not that you paid money for things you don't use. People do that all the time and it's not the biggest problem ever (I mean, think about the amount of steam games people buy and never use...). No, your issue is that you thought you would be able to get your art like you wanted it, and maybe even that you thought that it wouldn't be so hard to get it, and now you are faced with the problem of how to get art once again, because the solution you had didn't work.

Last time, your solution was to hire someone else to make the art for you. You tried that with four different artists and it didn't work. I would say that this calls for you to step back and analyse the situation, so that you can figure out how to move from there.

I don't know what is the answer that you need, but there are a lot of options for you now. You just need to keep an open mind, otherwise you might dismiss some options that could change your life for the better.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Just one thing to keep in mind. Most starting devs don't have huge projects. When your total budget is around 3000$ to make a game, it can be quite hard to get the money to deal with contract stuff.

I've been freelancer for something like 10 years. The first contract I made sign was a photocopy of a generic contract I found in a book ; by chance I became more professional with time And as he said, toolkitxx gave you a link to a contract. Plus, there's tons of others that can be found online.
What I mean, is that you don't need a lawyer to pass a contract, nor to write it, and anyway there's lawyers, and law students, who wrote dozen of them and put them available online for people like you. As long as the contract is signed, it's a valid contract. I'm even sure that there's now ways to legally, and at a really low cost, sign them numerically if the artist really live too far away.

 

[Anorak]

When you ask me or someone else 'do you understand?' or 'do you agree?' we will in more than 99% of all cases have differences in what we actually understood and agreed on

I understand the intricacies of other languages actually, how different meanings can get warped or lost entirely, and that laguages aren't able to be translated 1:1.
However, I did have an implicit understanding with them all that I wanted their art for the long haul and they'd keep being paid for it. And NOT, say, paying them so that they'd later disappear for 3 months and I'M the asshole for asking what happened more than once, since I would be bothering them.

 

[Anorak]

I've been freelancer for something like 10 years. The first contract I made sign was a photocopy of a generic contract I found in a book ; by chance I became more professional with time And as he said, toolkitxx gave you a link to a contract. Plus, there's tons of others that can be found online.
What I mean, is that you don't need a lawyer to pass a contract, nor to write it, and anyway there's lawyers, and law students, who wrote dozen of them and put them available online for people like you. As long as the contract is signed, it's a valid contract. I'm even sure that there's now ways to legally, and at a really low cost, sign them numerically if the artist really live too far away.

Yeah, and I would have no qualms signing a legally binding contract for this, I do want to put the effort in and get the game going and pay what I'm owed to the artists. I just sort of don't get exactly what's needed to make a contract legal. Is it just to find a lawyer or something to make a document valid, or could I write something like that example myself?

 

[toolkitxx]

I understand the intricacies of other languages actually, how different meanings can get warped or lost entirely, and that laguages aren't able to be translated 1:1.
However, I did have an implicit understanding with them all that I wanted their art for the long haul and they'd keep being paid for it. And NOT, say, paying them so that they'd later disappear for 3 months and I'M the asshole for asking what happened more than once, since I would be bothering them.

None of them actually 'committed' properly - that is what i get from your description. As Ambir stated too: there seems to be a pattern that should make you suspicious and take a step back to analyze the situation with a view from the outside.

Something is fundamentally wrong if the same thing happens several times to one and the same person. These kind of agreements require at least 2 persons and the only person's behaviour you can actively change is your own behaviour. Once or twice is a coincidence - more is a pattern. Patterns can be broken.

 

[Anorak]

None of them actually 'committed' properly - that is what i get from your description. As Ambir stated too: there seems to be a pattern that should make you suspicious and take a step back to analyze the situation with a view from the outside.

Something is fundamentally wrong if the same thing happens several times to one and the same person. These kind of agreements require at least 2 persons and the only person's behaviour you can actively change is your own behaviour. Once or twice is a coincidence - more is a pattern. Patterns can be broken.

That all sounds great, and I don't know how easy I am to work with/for, but I at least respect the artists and pay them what they asked. So I don't quite see what to do here other than get an actual contract. Or am I just thick, and don't understand what you're telling me?
I have gone over rather critically my own dealings with the artists, and I know I'm the only one able to speak to it now, but I'd have to say I was rather positive towards their work and downright understanding. Hell, one artist didn't want me to repeatedly message them, so I make sure not to leave a message with less than 3 days downtime in between when I don't get a reply. That's the artist I already paid, btw.

 

[toolkitxx]

That all sounds great, and I don't know how easy I am to work with/for, but I at least respect the artists and pay them what they asked. So I don't quite see what to do here other than get an actual contract. Or am I just thick, and don't understand what you're telling me?
I have gone over rather critically my own dealings with the artists, and I know I'm the only one able to speak to it now, but I'd have to say I was rather positive towards their work and downright understanding. Hell, one artist didn't want me to repeatedly message them, so I make sure not to leave a message with less than 3 days downtime in between when I don't get a reply. That's the artist I already paid, btw.

Maybe i wasnt precise enough - this isnt about you being 'too thick'.

It is commendable that you try to respect the artists wishes but you seem to set their priorities above your own in this context. You have the overall oversight and artistic idea and the overall schedule - not the artist you task with doing something. To keep a schedule on the entire project requires you to make hard , clear lines in terms of what, when, where. You not calling /contacting them is bad when you deal with someone who hasnt worked for/with you before.

The contract i linked was to show you that contracts can be self-made and as simple as the example. Contracts dont have to include a monetary aspect. They are about defining those what, when , where etc in a form hat doesnt leave room for interpretation about them. In words many dont like: you are the employer (at least in terms of this particular part). Your job is to make deadlines, enforce them and also to define intermediary steps to avoid something being worked on that cant be used once it is finished. It is common - every freelancer who has ever worked on something as simple or complex like a website can tell you too - to have steps between start and finish of a given part of your project. That includes art and graphics. Artists come in a variety of flavours. Artists that insist on 'creative freedom' in terms of not being willing to follow deadlines and at least a very basic project organisation are simply not meant to be tasked by you.

 

[Joshua Tree]

That all sounds great, and I don't know how easy I am to work with/for, but I at least respect the artists and pay them what they asked. So I don't quite see what to do here other than get an actual contract. Or am I just thick, and don't understand what you're telling me?
I have gone over rather critically my own dealings with the artists, and I know I'm the only one able to speak to it now, but I'd have to say I was rather positive towards their work and downright understanding. Hell, one artist didn't want me to repeatedly message them, so I make sure not to leave a message with less than 3 days downtime in between when I don't get a reply. That's the artist I already paid, btw.

Imho. When you commission work don't pay all in advance/up front. Half'n Half,and rest uppon completion works though. I got no idea how much art you did commission from each artist though. When talking about a entire game it sounds like a lot though. Did they know it was for a entire game? Out of curiosity, do you have any example of what they did?