So let's see. Ocean makes Summer is gone and Where it all began on his own AFAIK. He's also one who's been accused of milking. His games were launched more or less 4 years ago (one end of 2018, another first quarter of 2019). But In that time, WIAB had the initial release that went to 0.6 which had 6194 renders. It then got reworked and the rework has 2354 renders. Then there is Summer is gone which has 9300 renders so far. So in 4 years Ocean rendered 17748 renders while also doing the writing. And that's him working alone and creating custom sets in some cases. Meanwhile in 3 years the Radiant team managed to render just 2401 renders. So like almost 9 times fewer renders. The game may be good but the excuse that they're somehow stretched thin doesn't fly. Whether someone pays for the game or not is irrelevant, facts are facts. This is milkinog the highest degree.
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I'm happy to support both Summers Gone and Radiant.
I actually do it with $, not claiming that my download of someone else's creation helps to pay their electricity, hardware costs, software and music licensing for example.
I know you are shocked to hear this, but people accuse Ocean of milking too - if you don't believe me, check out his thread because he did a new SG release yesterday.
It's just more of the entitled ones who take something for free and then complain about it, regardless of how good the creator is.
Imagine a hobo who dumpster dives for food behind a restaurant all the while complaining because they did not give him wine with his meal.
The hobo is, in fact, lucky to have gotten anything from the restaurant at all, let alone being thanked for taking a piss on their back steps.
Cheers to Radiant that has supporters who see past the hobo attacks and continue to support a creation that they enjoy.
It might shock you to read this, but I mentioned in my post that he gets accused of milking too. But clearly in your rush to be Captain Save a Hoe you didn't read very carefully. And the reason I posted the comparison in terms of the volume of renders done is precisely to show the difference between someone who does a lot of work and someone who just bilks people. I've seen people who pause billing on Patreon if they are unable to deliver for a while. Doubtful this has happened here. Also like I said, whether someone is paying or not is irrelevant. If it quacks like a duck...
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It's completely relevant. There are many games that have long time spans between releases and, as long as this is understood by a project's patrons, then by definition 'bilking', 'milking' etc isn't taking place. It's when someone takes, or actively solicits, patronage based on performance claims ("I'll deliver X amount of content with Y girls on Z date") and then repeated doesn't honor that commitment that we get into fraud territory.
People that aren't supporting a project don't really have any standing and their claims of 'milking' ring a little hollow.
So what would your definition of milking be then? Or I suppose it doesn't exist? I guess the saying "there is a sucker born every minute" applies.
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milking is just exploiting a game beyond its useful life, that is, extending things in a useless way just to get the most out of it, an example would be that game called "my pleasure" or dmd, but missing deadlines is usually not milking at least for me, it just means that the dev is irresponsible or has no idea what to do with his own game. At least that's what I think
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Great question.
Milking has historically meant using the rules and procedures meant to protect a system to, instead, manipulate the system for a desired outcome. If we focus on developers that actively solicit donations, milking would be:
- Promising a certain type and quantity of content by a particular date and repeatedly not delivering on those promises
- Continuing to accept this transactional, conditional patronage despite not delivering
- Playing on the innate goodwill of people to extend this situation as long as possible
Developers that make it clear that patronage is 'tipping', and will not let it affect their plans, are not 'milking' anyone.
And a person not supporting a project is not being 'milked' because they didn't pay for anything in the first place. Griping that someone is 'milking' without contributing, or making a good case, is like someone that complains to the newspaper company that their neighbor's newspaper wasn't delivered on time.
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That's another definition and agree completely with the idea that a concept can be run into the ground by 'milking'. What most people here seem to mean is when someone takes 'too long' to deliver content, often regardless of what the actual facts are.
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- Aug 19, 2019
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An excellent definition : See WVM, and the wagon train of excuses that BrainDrop has given over the past year or two. I'm sure we'll see that Milfy City update any day now, too.
There are, without question, sone definite milkers out there. This one doesn't feel like it, but it is a slow development cycle. I have ni idea where their bottleneck is. Could be hardware limitations, could be family or work obligations.
I certainly wish they were faster, I really like the way Maddie looks, and more Vanessa gets my approval.
Yeah OK, so 3 renders per day on average over 3 years is totally not taking people for fools. I mean denial is not just a river in Egypt. And they are still asking for MORE money. Stay salty. And keep paying.
" And a person not supporting a project is not being 'milked' because they didn't pay for anything in the first place. " I never said I was. I said the ones paying are.
"
Promising a certain type and quantity of content by a particular date and repeatedly not delivering on those promises
- Continuing to accept this transactional, conditional patronage despite not delivering
- Playing on the innate goodwill of people to extend this situation as long as possible "
Sounds like exactly what these guys are doing.
How could I possibly know what WVM is?
Sure I like the way the characters look, and the writing is OK but when you're taking in 6,000 a month you have no excuse. I mentioned above how Ocean works on 2 games and he delivered a damn lot more. Oh, and Ocean I seem to recall he was working a job too. Maybe even two, but don't quote me on that.
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There are a lot of games where the developer has a regular job and does game creation as a hobby, and they're not going to crank out 50 renders a day. This is fine as long as everyone knows that going in, because a lot of us don't care when the updates come out.Yeah OK, so 3 renders per day on average over 3 years is totally not taking people for fools. I mean denial is not just a river in Egypt. And they are still asking for MORE money. Stay salty. And keep paying.
" And a person not supporting a project is not being 'milked' because they didn't pay for anything in the first place. " I never said I was. I said the ones paying are.
"
Promising a certain type and quantity of content by a particular date and repeatedly not delivering on those promises
- Continuing to accept this transactional, conditional patronage despite not delivering
- Playing on the innate goodwill of people to extend this situation as long as possible "
Sounds like exactly what these guys are doing.
Denial is refusing to accept reality, but your read on this doesn't reflect what most of us think and care about.
I feel like there's a little truth to both sides here.
a) if a dev is honest about what they're doing, and people keep giving them money, that's entirely on the people giving them money.
b) if a dev is honest about what they're doing, but is dishonest with their motives, and is going slowly for the purpose of keeping a steady monthly income as long as people are hoping for a new release, that's on the dev.
Is it A or B here? I don't have the answer. Just positing.
a) if a dev is honest about what they're doing, and people keep giving them money, that's entirely on the people giving them money.
b) if a dev is honest about what they're doing, but is dishonest with their motives, and is going slowly for the purpose of keeping a steady monthly income as long as people are hoping for a new release, that's on the dev.
Is it A or B here? I don't have the answer. Just positing.
In the end, I've never been good with others telling me what to do with my $.
I choose who to support and when, much the same way I choose the car I want to buy and when.
I like Radiant and the story being told, so I will support it regardless of how many other people come to F95 and tell me what a bad idea that is.
I'll also offer what I call pro/con/pro feedback.
This means that I acknowledge the good and the bad in the creators I support.
Radiant received a decent update about 6 months after the last rev, and the dev's listened to their supporters and worked to give us improved communication.
Was the communication perfect - No.
Did the update give me as much triplet content as I wanted - No!
But there was enough content and improvement for me to continue to support them with $.
The constant accusations of milking are Silly and childish - and the self-appointed guardians of other people's $ are so often people who just come here to take something for free, then whine about it and complain when anyone else dissents.
At a certain point in time, once I know that the recording is broken and there is nothing for me to learn from a particular complainer, I just hit ignore and the noise level drops appreciably.
To those who are here to enjoy Radiant, Cheers!
I choose who to support and when, much the same way I choose the car I want to buy and when.
I like Radiant and the story being told, so I will support it regardless of how many other people come to F95 and tell me what a bad idea that is.
I'll also offer what I call pro/con/pro feedback.
This means that I acknowledge the good and the bad in the creators I support.
Radiant received a decent update about 6 months after the last rev, and the dev's listened to their supporters and worked to give us improved communication.
Was the communication perfect - No.
Did the update give me as much triplet content as I wanted - No!
But there was enough content and improvement for me to continue to support them with $.
The constant accusations of milking are Silly and childish - and the self-appointed guardians of other people's $ are so often people who just come here to take something for free, then whine about it and complain when anyone else dissents.
At a certain point in time, once I know that the recording is broken and there is nothing for me to learn from a particular complainer, I just hit ignore and the noise level drops appreciably.
To those who are here to enjoy Radiant, Cheers!
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I'm tempted to believe it is b) because what I know about game development does not line up with progress as I have seen here. Even for a solo dev. Look at the architect or the sexbot guy, or the two guys at summer heat. All very reliable about releases. Yet this dev only has excuses and can't or "won't" deliver and when they do it's perfectly serviceable but they say it will be a buggy mess and to please not release it here, they only want patrons (who at this point are sunk cost compliant) to have it. It all smells like rotten milk to me.
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There is some truth in several points here, I guess - even though this discussion seems to be slightly off topic.
People, who do not support a developer financially simply do not have any right to complain about being milked. Just because there aren't. They do not contribute anything and just get the game for free. So any protest about the milking is just pointless and ridiculous.
BUT: It is more than alright to warn potential supporters about the milking tendency of some developers, so that they don't fall into this trap, support that dev and then become milked. And that might also make that dev deliver again in order to not loose supporters but get some instead. So warning about a milker even if you do not pay him anything feels totally fine to me.
I cannot judge wether the developer of Radiant might be such a milker or not. I am just happy that another update has been released. And of course I am hoping for a shorter time until further releases. But I don't feel like having any right to complain.
People, who do not support a developer financially simply do not have any right to complain about being milked. Just because there aren't. They do not contribute anything and just get the game for free. So any protest about the milking is just pointless and ridiculous.
BUT: It is more than alright to warn potential supporters about the milking tendency of some developers, so that they don't fall into this trap, support that dev and then become milked. And that might also make that dev deliver again in order to not loose supporters but get some instead. So warning about a milker even if you do not pay him anything feels totally fine to me.
I cannot judge wether the developer of Radiant might be such a milker or not. I am just happy that another update has been released. And of course I am hoping for a shorter time until further releases. But I don't feel like having any right to complain.
This "argument" happens in nearly every single thread of every single popular game that runs past the expectations of the people who play it. There is always someone that is disappointed with how long they've had to wait... this is not in defense of the dev, or other games that break this rule, however, just an observation, and I find the whole thing tedious and pointless. It's unfortunate that other people might "forget" that they've subbed to a controversial patron, but it's not really any of your business to tell other people what to do with their money, and it shouldn't surprise you that some people are incapable of managing it, especially in this day and age.
- Jan 5, 2023
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How long is this game going to go on and on and on and on and on without some extensive content? This is getting to be rather ridiculous! This thread has 595 pages, and the game has about 30 minutes of content, right? What's that all about? (That might be a small exaggeration, but it's a SMALL exaggeration!) Come on, man, get with it! We are waiting, and have been waiting, VERY, VERY patiently!