Render Quality Vs Game delivery

[CheekyGimp]

As a developer, the biggest enemy is time! In a perfect world, there'd be no compromise between quality and getting a playable release out, so looking for peoples opinions on this one...
Every time I create an episode I tweak and re-tweak renders constantly trying to improve their quality, but with time constraints (and being a one-man development team with a full-time job), it is difficult to get every render perfect without spending months on a single episode, so just wanted to know what people think when it comes to quality versus getting releases out. Is "good enough" actually good enough or should we never compromise on quality, even if it means less gameplay per release or longer wait times between releases ??

Let me know your thoughts....

 

[CheekyGimp]

One example would be the below. The lighting is not "perfect" in this one (too much direct sunlight in an indoor scene), but as this is 1 of approx 50 renders in this episode, I decided in order to get an episode out (including the other 49 renders, the script, error checking, etc.), it was good enough, but continously second-guessing whether people would appreciate the extra time to get it (and the other 49 better) at the expense of smaller or less frequent releases ???

 

[Fasder]

Aim for perfection, settle for something less.

Perfection is objectively impossible to achieve, something you think is perfect might be utter shit to someone else and so forth.
I always try to do my best, and if I find that I'm tempted to cut corners then I sit back down and do the work. Sometimes though, you can get away with good solutions that are more "out of the box" to cut down on time.
I know what I can deliver in a month without burning myself out completely, so I use that as a goal for each release. This usually means around 95 or so renders for each release.
Sometimes I just can't get the light right and if I spend too much time on that particular scene I usually have to say fuck it and move on. Then I usually revisit them whenever I find the time for it.

On the other hand you seem to be making a VN when I'm not, so our experiences and development flow might differ.

 

[devilxxx]

Guessing by your text, you have something like a "default" setting for rendering images.

Then I would suggest you to think in fixed time slots.

You have a scene with text, programming and rendering images. For this you define a fix time slot you want to stay in. When you have finished all tasks in this time slot and still have enough time for optimizations, then optimize your images.

This way you should be able to stay in your release date and deliver good quality.

P.S. I think your sample image is good enough

 

[Oppai Auteur]

One example would be the below. The lighting is not "perfect" in this one (too much direct sunlight in an indoor scene), but as this is 1 of approx 50 renders in this episode, I decided in order to get an episode out (including the other 49 renders, the script, error checking, etc.), it was good enough, but continously second-guessing whether people would appreciate the extra time to get it (and the other 49 better) at the expense of smaller or less frequent releases ???

I have a habit of doing this myself with my own game, constantly second guessing when it comes to the look of the renders, not being happy with the final results but looking at this as someone who plays the games as well....

The example you've given here is one I wouldn't bother to complain about, hell if you didn't point it out I wouldn't even think to notice there is too much sunlight. When it comes to render quality I dont think people would fault you for these little issues.

I personally dont sit there playing a game looking for very tiny issue in each render. Its best to ease up a little when it comes to this matter, you should always make the game in a way that makes, you, the creator happy but worrying about perfection just leads to more problems.

It will never be perfect, perfect doesnt exist. I think devs have this idea that players care about every little thing, but they usually aren't so anal about tiny details...well most of them

......And if you want to feel better about your own renders, just look at the renders in my game, bad lighting and grain everywhere. You will feel so much better about your own work cause its way better than my shit, the difference is night and day lol

 

[W22N]

As most of the comments said, it depends mostly on you. Most people don't really see differences when it comes to something like lighting, that's usually something devs talk among themselves because they know the process behind it. And even then, if they're playing your game they'll have to really look for those imperfections, which is unlikely if they're invested in the game.

Unless it's resorting to 360p to render faster, then do whatever you're comfortable with, whether that's making your game as perfect as you can (for yourself, not for people that won't see the differences) or moving faster and outrunning frustration.

 

[reallybadman]

Speaking from the point of view of an average player, I never really pay much attention to 80% of the "filler" renders in games using 3D renders after the initial view. I usual give renders a glance and lose focus once beginning to read text and the renders tend to cycle through a couple of poses/facial expressions. While as the creator of the render you tend to notice any and every detail, others will hardly notice what you deem to be important enough to redo the entire thing.

The other 20%, which consist of sex scenes and major events, get more notice. It seems many players skip most content just to get to these scenes as quick as possible considering all the posts asking for cheats/saves/gallery. Extra attention to detail for these scenes seem like they would have the most impact for time investment.

I believe that focusing on quicker releases would be better for most projects. It keeps those who want more content happy and it would be less time spent for devs on rendering minor scenes so they can focus on other areas.

This is just my opinion and shouldn't apply to every project.

 

[CheekyGimp]

Speaking from the point of view of an average player, I never really pay much attention to 80% of the "filler" renders in games using 3D renders after the initial view. I usual give renders a glance and lose focus once beginning to read text and the renders tend to cycle through a couple of poses/facial expressions. While as the creator of the render you tend to notice any and every detail, others will hardly notice what you deem to be important enough to redo the entire thing.

The other 20%, which consist of sex scenes and major events, get more notice. It seems many players skip most content just to get to these scenes as quick as possible considering all the posts asking for cheats/saves/gallery. Extra attention to detail for these scenes seem like they would have the most impact for time investment.

I believe that focusing on quicker releases would be better for most projects. It keeps those who want more content happy and it would be less time spent for devs on rendering minor scenes so they can focus on other areas.

This is just my opinion and shouldn't apply to every project.

Good point you make regarding the quality for specific scenes mattering more. I'll bear that in mind. Thanks

 

[Jai Ho]

@Oppai Auteur - I like your humbleness. and I think you are right, most people are not as critical as we are to our own products. In my mind I make art and I (in theory) am making a VN. I am having too much fun making art at the moment to concentrate on my VN. The VN is going to be a job, the art is play and I can spend 2 days on a render if I want. Job vs play.... ummm yeah, i think i will make that kitty-girl riding a tiger render I've been thinking about...

@CheekyGimp In my opinion, unless there is a total failure of congruity I'd not worry about it. For example, the pic you posted is fine! UNLESS... you are telling me it is 3 in the morning in the dialog. I looked @Fasder and @CheekyGimp Patreon pages. Ugh! How can you keep up with a job, a Patreon page, AND ... Discord?!

Making a VN is a second job, make no mistake about it. Thumbs up to you guys that are actually doing it! It's alot of hard work. To reinforce what others have said, content is king, and as a user I rarely am interested in the artistic look of a render in a VN. Hey, I followed a guy for several months making a VN in Honey Select, and that stuff's crap (IMHO)! So a good / interesting story / game goes a long way!

 

[Oppai Auteur]

@Jai Ho Its always good to take some time to just make random renders for no reason lol

The idea of having to balance a day job with making games and trying to keep donators happy is one of the reasons that even though I’m making a game I don’t have a Patreon

Way too much pressure lol

 

[Fasder]

How can you keep up with a job, a Patreon page, AND ... Discord?!

Well, I don't have a job, there's even a line on my front page saying I'm unemployed.
Though, you did remind me that I needed to update the "About me" section so thanks for that.

 

[Gomly1980]

I'm more interested in content than how shiny it looks.

You could have the most glorious renders ever rendered, so majestic that even the blind could see their glory ..... means nothing if you only have a handful with no content.

Far too many people put too much stock in how good shit looks which is why we have such short updates. Renders take so long to do especially when people have full time jobs that they barely have time for anything else.

The problem there is someone has spent a month putting together something that took me 10 minutes to get through and then i've forgot about it and moved on to something else.

 

[OhWee]

Well, when I'm looking at a scene, I'm looking at the pretty girl in the foreground. I'm probably not going to remember what kind of flower is in the vase by her bed, or the pattern on the sheets. I may notice it occasionally, especially if it's unusual, but background filler is exactly that, filler.

So that's the sort of stuff I'd suggest not agonizing too much over. Good enough is perfectly fine here.

As for the girl in the foreground, just keep in mind that 'quality' is all over the map in these sorts of games, so if it's not perfect, that's OK. You'll learn a few things along the way that will make quality happen more naturally as you are continually work on and crank out new renders.

Some artists feel the need to go back and re-do renders in subsequent releases. If people didn't mind/liked them before, this isn't time well spent IMHO. Unless of course you've completely changed the 'look' of your game and they simply don't fit the new style anymore.

How the girl is put together can be a deal breaker though. Different people prefer different types, of course, but if she looks unnatural (hand on her hip sticking inside her torso, proportions off, pose looks uncomfortable, etc.), yeah that can put people off, so spending some extra time at the beginning to get him/her looking real good is time well spent. You'll be living with this character for the duration of your story as you put them in various situations, so you should like what you see.

So, in short, while 'good enough' might nag at your artistic sensibilities a bit, remember that you are telling a story, and you need to keep moving forward to get that story done. So do a good job, but be cognizant of your time investment. That 'last 5%' you are chasing is time that could be spent on a subsequent render/scene. It's all about time management.

 

[CheekyGimp]

Yea, the Patreon thing along with a full-time job is a lot to take on. If I could go back, I'd probably wait until I had a buffer of a few episodes before going onto Patreon just so I ha some fallback if time was a problem. At the moment, it's a struggle trying to get something (that I think is up to scratch) out in a month. I literally spend every free minute when I'm not in work developing the game (and took some holidays to get it finished on each of the last two months). But on the other hand, if I didn't have the Patreon pressure, I'd probably be doing one episode every 4 months, realize at that rate it'll take me years to finish the game and then give up, so at least it's keeping me actively working on it... Still enjoying it and not feeling burnt out yet (who needs t.v. and a social life right ? )

 

[GuyFreely]

As others have said, the major consideration is how long the average player will look at it. If it's a scene you use to deliver one or two lines of dialogue, it can be passable. Scenes that need extra attention: sex (no shit), the first time you see a character (at least the first time you get a good look), a sexy shot (could be subjective), a scene that is going to linger either because it has a lot of dialogue without changing or you come back to it more than once. Major issues to avoid (I still see them in games): Clipping, continuity problems (dark in one shot, light in the next, etc.), awkward (even impossible) poses, weird facial expressions. As long as you can avoid glaring issues that makes the average person stop and notice, you can probably get by.

Of course I'm full of shit because I'll spend hours on a shot that exists for one line of dialogue, so yeah.

 

[thecardinal]

Find a render method that works for you, then tweak and fine tune the hell out of it.

I render the characters either by themselves or with a prop, and layer it over a static background that is blurred with depth of focus. This render took me 5-10 minutes and I have a horrible desktop PC. Just play around with textures and find a setting that works for you. The lighting might not match up perfect, but I think with increased high quality character renders, your supporters and fans won't mind.

 

[xןʞ]

My advice for you is to focus on plot and story and try to do something different(even if you are making mom-son incest game #21041, present it with a different plot than "Owoooh You're Penis is so huuuGEge Max" like so many other ones.) Instead of worrying about having the "perfect" renders.

Take two examplse: Perverteer realized he should focus on writing and character development since he knew he hadno way to make good renders(he did most of his early work on a laptop with 3Delight) but ended up making enough to fund better hardware, and now makes 2k plus a month.

Meanwhile you have PhillyGames, who is great with his daz ability, but the reality is people play his game for the engaging plot and the fact that it is a game that does things differently than all the other games. He'll show me a test render and I constantly have to remind him that no one is going to notice that one of Carli's stockings is a bit off, or her hair is a smidge out of place when they are engaged in the plot.

Meanwhile you have some devs who have very good renders, but can't figure out more than basic engrish and have the most carbon copy plots you can find, and they wonder why they can't get patrons.

 

[Dr PinkCake]

My advice is to set a standard and try to stick to it. Sometimes you'll have to compromise quality for pushing a release. If you are doing a lot of renders (such as myself 1000+ frames per release) you can't do everything perfect. Even though that sexy pose is slightly off or the lighting isn't hitting the correct sweet spot, you must push forward.

To ease the weight on your shoulders, if you are doing the patreon thingy, be very clear with what your patrons can expect from you. Personally I've clearly stated that I won't promise release dates and given this as a rough estimate: "releases are approximately once every other month"; even if I likely will be finished before that deadline. Patrons should be aware of your philosophy and how much you can work as a developer. When a game becomes popular some eager fans (ironically often non-patrons) feel entitled to new updates at a regular schedule. When an update gets delayed they are the first ones to complain, bash the dev and call him a Patron milker. This is very disheartening to see, but stick to your guns and also be very transparent with your patrons.

 

[DarthSeduction]

As a developer, the biggest enemy is time! In a perfect world, there'd be no compromise between quality and getting a playable release out, so looking for peoples opinions on this one...
Every time I create an episode I tweak and re-tweak renders constantly trying to improve their quality, but with time constraints (and being a one-man development team with a full-time job), it is difficult to get every render perfect without spending months on a single episode, so just wanted to know what people think when it comes to quality versus getting releases out. Is "good enough" actually good enough or should we never compromise on quality, even if it means less gameplay per release or longer wait times between releases ??

Let me know your thoughts....

My thought is that I'd rather see the release as it is intended than to see it rushed or shorter. In fact, one of the problems a lot of developers face is that they aren't able to finish a release in a way that makes people want to come back. I follow quite a few in development games, and I can only think of a few that always do a good job of ending a release on a suspenseful note. Its one of the caveats of our release system that makes this necessary, but if your viewers aren't left waiting for more then they're gonna lose interest. I do wanna be clear though, when I say waiting for more, I'm not saying you should tease a sexual reward at the end of each release, but something narrative based should end each one out. Something that makes your players say, oh shit, what happens next? It can be any number of things depending on the character and the story. If it is incest based, having them get caught or nearly caught would be a good way to end a release, having a character reveal they're pregnant would be another, having a character taken away somehow, either kidnapped in a darker story, or taken home, like in DmD (one of few things that game does right). Now, they're not all gonna be that dramatic, but you should get the idea there.

And that is why the quality that matters most is your narrative. The narrative should always come first. And if you are consistent and good with your narrative, you constantly leave your players wanting more, then they'll wait an extra week or two to see a good release, because you'll have built that trust with them. If you release every 4 weeks but they're bored with your game because it's not leaving them wanting more, then you're going to lose them. Art quality is great, and it will definitely add to any experience, but at the same time, I'm still playing Sister, Sister, Sister, because there's always some evolution to the story to look forward to, being hinted at. Sister, Sister, Sister isn't even the best game out there for story, but it is one I can point to and say that it's been relatively consistent. However, its art sucks. Models look like dolls. So my point is, if you can keep me interested in your game, its far more valuable than keeping your game visually impressive. If you can do both then do both. But if you have to choose between one or the other for time constraints, narrative comes first.

 

[CheekyGimp]

Thanks folks. Love this forum!! Always get great advice and still pleasantly surprised how many people are willing to share insights and inputs.