sexypeanut

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Jun 30, 2020
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Just played the game.

It's an interesting twist to play (under) the evil side. In the beginning, I thought Rowan would right away start an undercover resistance. As you play, it seems he gets more comfortable with what he's doing.
I like the script - the Twins, but especially the girl, are more than meets the eye. They're not simple 'Saturday morning cartoon' villains, but well-thought characters with plans. Playing as Rowan, you feel the practical impotence of trying to work against them. That kind of mental oppression will certainly take a toll on him, Alexia and others.
It's great to see other races and to possibly fuck them (the blonde elf! So nice).
This will certainly be on my watch list!

Now, on what I didn't like too much:
1. The art style difference. The characters look like X during normal scenes but, in the sexy ones, they are drawn pretty differently. This diminishes the immersion a bit. The sorcerer looks like 3 different people during the gameplay...
1a. Halayna (the pink-haired girl with Aerith vibes) has a too large forehead, doesn't she? It's a bit unnerving.
2. No way to repeat/rewatch scenes. I hope this will be implemented soon.
3. You cannot visit the upgrades you build, except in random events. This is pretty limiting! I was expecting to visit the brothel and have scenes with the new character there.
4. Your inventory and skills never change. There's nothing to buy or sell, nor ways to increase - or even use! - the skills.
5. The lack of a minimap. After your first weeks, the surroundings of the castle are explored and you have to move further to explore. After the random event at the end of the week, you already forgot where did you explore previously and spend time going to places you've already been.
6. I can visit the female Twin, but there's nothing there to do.
7. Some scenes have no art, like the half-elf in the mine and Alexia rewarding you.

And two personal requests:
a. I want more sexy scenes with the sorcerer! Dunno if it's possible, but having her mellowing a bit? She's quite the sociopath right now :p
b. The game warning you that Alexia's path with a chosen job won't go further. I've had the game repeat the 'control three elements at the same time' repeat thrice...

---

Finally, a plea for help: I'm at the 50th week and I have absolutely no idea how to bring a new race to the alliance. how do you do it?
 
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05841035411

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Finally, a plea for help: I'm at the 50th week and I have absolutely no idea how to bring a new race to the alliance. how do you do it?
50th week? Cutting things a bit close, I see, but still doable...

There's an orc camp in the upper left of the map, just past the abbey; you're going to have to settle their leadership struggle, which is centered around a captured noblewoman. After introducing yourself to the rival powers, explore the camp to find her cage; from there, you have three choices.

Persuade her to accept Ulcro, which will require gifts (you can get some from Jezera and Clionha, as well as having Ulcro raid a bit) to improve her circumstances and a couple of conversations ruminating on all of the power she'd have at her fingertips.

Mindbreak her with a succubi and give her to Batri, as well as raid frequently to improve his prestige in camp, and have Greyhide make him some new weapons.

Earn her trust, and talk her into escaping - either honestly, which will cause a major disaster that will end with an angry Tarish in charge, or as part of a trap to kill both leaders and put a grateful Tarish in charge. I'm pretty sure this also requires some preparations as well, but I'm not familiar with them since neither option is my cup of tea.

With a bit of luck, you should be able to do it in about five weeks? Do save first, though; visiting Delane involves a skill check, and you don't want to end up with a game over on week 60 because you failed it too many times.
 
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Rein

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As one of the players that doesn't like futa content, if Rowan and Alexia spurns her advances as before, will it continue to gate X'Zaratl's (non-sexual event / scenes) content as before?
X'zaratl being your BFF (even if you don't know it yet), understands that her futa cock might be a little weird at first, so she doesn't hold it against you if you don't jump on it straight away.

To answer your questions - generally speaking refusing X'zaratl won't block her nonsexual scenes. She also has scenes where her futanari cock isn't a focus of (Look: Virility Treatment), but in general, people who pursue a sexual relionship with her should get accustomed to seeing X'zaratl wanting to use said futa dick on someone.
 
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manscout

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Jun 13, 2018
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None of this is worth it if things just go back to the way they were before Rowan left his cell - if that happens, he's just a coward who should have chosen a more dignified death. He can't just ensure the Twins lose, because the Twins would have lost already without him. He has to make sure that the right people win as well, and that means someone who understand that there were more flaws to the old system than "peasants rising above their station".

And as for the Twin's benevolence... Are the Twins immortal? Unbeatable? Is suffering them for a year or five that much worse than a tyrannical or incompetent king from years years past? I mean, I could easily picture Andras ordering one out of every five villages razed in response to a peasant insurrection - but truly, the Twins really do seem preoccupied with what's right in front of them. This isn't an assault from an army of Skordreds, intent on remaking the world - it's an army "lead" by people interested in their own amusement and self-aggrandizement, who see this as a sort of game that lets them demand everyone kneel before them. Andras might be a butcher who kills half the people he wanders across, but that's a problem for the capital - everyone outside his eyesight will likely be fine. Jezera might demand that every pretty boy and girl in the kingdom be brought to her for inspection, but it amounts to a petty distraction at most; she loses interest in her toys quickly, and she leaves them in good enough condition that they can still work afterwards.

And if this was them "playing nice", if they were only holding back enough to get a single, semi-functioning country before demanding that everything past it be burnt... Well, frankly, the Twins are still in a terrible position without him. Their army of orcs are the remnants from the last army to try this "conquer the world" shtick, and were already being harried to destruction by Prothea already when you found them. Daenara was described as an army of her own, and is still out there, as are the other armies. And the Twins have lost the advantage of surprise - the other kingdoms are going to switch to a war footing now.

If the Twins aren't willing to be "reasonable", to stick to things that are appalling-but-not-quite-past-Rowan's-line, then he can simply quit, and those atrocities will be prevented as his side falls apart without him. And yeah, they'll kill him for it, possibly Alexia as well. But they'll still lose. He doesn't need to empower people like Werden to make that happen.
I do not think it is quite correct to assume the Twins would have already failed without him, I think it is a safe bet to say everything up to Raeve's keep would have gone exactly the same and it was much more about them testing Rowan as an agent rather than needing him as one. Even after that I'd say things would have gone similarly, the orcs would have been recruited, the Rastedel army heading towards Raeve's keep would have still been sniped, it would just probably not have been quite as clean. Same even for the actual conquest of Rastedel, Jezera had agents in the city long before Rowan step foot in it, without Rowan maybe they don't manipulate the coup into happening at such a perfect timing, but they would have still had the forces to conquer the city.

Being able to protect Alexia and mitigating the Twins' damage have been Rowan's personal justifications from day 1, but it only really works because of the assumption that he couldn't have really stopped any of what they have done up to this point, which I do think is true. But at some point Rowan's impact as an asset will stop being about just making things easier for the Twins and will start being about actually enabling them to achieve things they wouldn't be able to without him, and I think that starts with Rowan eliminating capable opposition. The question becomes about for how long Rowan can justify what he's doing as being the lesser evil.

Of course this goes back to the meta-level discussion that this is a videogame and we know Werden and Marianne won't be as critical as that, but narratively speaking, the idea that making sure Werden and Marianne die pathetically without being able to lift as much as a finger against the Twins was the first real thing they maybe wouldn't have been able to do without Rowan is a little interesting.
Just as a point of order, though - it was still "his" nobles who feasted at multiple points during Rastadel's plotline in the middle of a famine, and who offered up a lot of stupid ideas when things started going wrong (admittedly, while they were panicking). To say nothing of the fact that Raeve was amongst his men.

He might believe they need to be better, but he certainly seems more compromising on this point than he is with the peasants.

I just don't see those measures holding after wartime unless he redistributes the actual land, the basis of feudal power. And I just don't see the other nobles accepting that level of power over them - it's something they'd hold dearer than their own lives, as it's the core of what makes their families important. Even they don't care about themselves, they still care about their families.
My impression is that Werden is uncompromising with the notion that peasants shouldn't challenge nobles because he prizes the maintenance of order above all else, not because he is particularly more cruel or demanding with the peasants in an individual level. This doesn't help much during peace times where the peasants are the only ones suffering and Werden needs to negotiate for the support of the nobility, but I do expect better from his leadership during war times.

Of course that might not mean much for you since you are mostly focused on meaningful lasting transformations when it comes to the results of the game, but I never really thought that far ahead when trying to come up with merits for Werden's route, just them being able to keep the kingdom from being quite as destroyed during the war is as far of a reach as I could picture.
Historically speaking, taking the city without sacking it was probably a fantasy to begin with. As much as Rowan rages, prior to the modern era, this was just how things were done; sacking "only" half the city would have been kinder than anyone would have expected (and one reason I'm glad to be living in the modern era, even if I think social media is going to get us all killed).

He might have lost sight of this in the moment, but what he really wanted was for Rastadel to be taken mostly intact - and that's what he got (ironically, the most damage done was probably at the hands of the fire he set). The people who didn't want to fight to the bitter end appear to have made it to safe zones, and the tools necessary to keep the city running weren't outright destroyed. Did it look as pretty as he had hoped? No, obviously not. This is still an army of demons and orcs taking a major human settlement. But for all his PTSD, he still saved a hell of a lot of people doing it this way.

And, sack aside, what comes after the sack? Are the Twins really in charge of the city now? Or did they hand things off to a human governor (handpicked by Rowan, no less, if he doesn't go with Werden) who lacks their particular tastes and need merely ensure that the quotas are met and the rebels are cowed? Because it looks like they're still going to be reigning from Bloodmeen, and from Jezera's dismissive comments regarding governors, don't really care how the city is run. If the twins are going to be like a hurricane, tearing up a region before blowing past, that might not even be the worst of things - it tears apart the old order, lets Rowan set a framework for a new one, and leaves it to its own devices while a new shiny object catches the Twins eye.

Of course, it's probably not going to be that clean. They probably are going to make new demands of the city that Rowan will be loathe to grant. But how much Rastadel and the other occupied territories suffer is probably going to come down to how well he can manage the Twins - and that, in turn, is easier if they don't treat everything he says as a plot because he let Werden go.

But, that aside, this also presupposes that the Twins stay in charge - but Rowan has recruited plenty of people who are personally loyal to him, and only to the Twins by extension. If he so chooses, he does have the tools he needs to launch an internal rebellion, one that would doom the Twins cause - he's not yet in a position where he could take over with any hope of defeating the humans as well, but he can certainly ensure the Twins lose without relying on Werden.

A rotten peace is worse than a chaotic world, because a chaotic world will always stabilize with time (at least when we're talking about humans); absent external intervention, someone eventually crawls the to the top of the ashes, and forces everyone else into line. It may be costly, it may be painful, and the new peace may be a bitter one, but a new society always rises from the old - humans are fundamentally social creatures who don't enjoy killing each other all the time. The only question is whether the pain is worth it, and from the glimpse we got at the capital, it certainly looks worth it now.

Of course, it would obviously be better to minimize the pain and chaos that replacing the old order would entail. Which is why it's important that Rowan make things as clean as possible, something that a campaign of active resistance from Werden would seem to work against.

I'm thinking more of the long-term consequences here than the short-term tragedies. Essentially; will the Twin's influence fundamentally change these communities, or simply subject them to temporary suffering? When the Twins die or are defeated, will these villages have internalized anything from being ruled by Chaos, or will it have been no different than having a particularly cruel lord for a generation?

If there's no fundamental transformation, then whether the mountain duchy holds out or not makes little difference outside of the strategic considerations - they're going be suffering from the war either way. If rule by the Twins did cause them to break more permanently from Solansia's orders, then keeping them from that would present a more meaningful distinction.

One complication here is that nobody in the game (other than Skordred and some orcs) truly follows or cares about "Might Makes Right" - Rowan certainly doesn't, and he's the one running things. The Twins were inclined to cast it aside. Some characters in the game do advocate for it, but always defer back to Rowan because, well, he's the warlord here, and he's actively managing things.

"Might Makes Right" may be their justification, but what it becomes in practice is making cases to Rowan, who chooses based on what he thinks is best. This doesn't differ significantly from an absolute monarchy; the only difference is that Rowan rules by right of continued success, and everyone is free to appeal to him without needing a noble title to back them up.

Of course, it'd completely fall apart after the death of Rowan and the Twins, as a power struggle tears things apart in the absence of a single clear successor, but... Well, that gets back to the part where they don't really follow "Might Makes Right" - if the game went on long enough, they'd certainly ensure that there was an heir competent enough to claim things on their own merit.

I disagree, personally; life as a refugee in that situation would be horrible. They'd literally have nothing but the clothes on their back, be weakened from the long march out of the kingdom, and almost certainly lack any useful skills (a craftsman without their tools isn't much of a craftsman, and they'd be trying to break into an established market without any capital). Most of them would die; those that don't, would be surviving on charity that can't deal with the number of victims.

And this is setting aside the fact that they would be treated with scorn and suspicion by the people they fled to; a country will pat itself on the back for accepting a handful of refugees, but once there are enough that it takes actual effort to do the right thing, they start to resent them and look for excuses to force them along. This is before the rumors start spreading about spies and shapeshifters hiding amongst the refugees, waiting to take down the kingdom by surprise like they took down Rosaria.

Meanwhile, those that stayed... Well, I wouldn't expect it to go well for them, necessarily. But I expect that they'll have homes and food, and that jobs (real jobs, not slave jobs) will soon be arranged for everyone as soon as they work out how much economic capacity was burnt out of the place. And as time goes on, things will go back to relative normal as routines resume, people adapt to their new neighbors, and the Twins learn how much they can play with the city before it starts causing them more problems than fun. As for where things go from there... Well, that depends on the war, I suppose.
I won't breakdown the rest of your post because I agree with some of the stuff and for the ones I don't I feel discussing it by parts would have me repeating previous points, so instead I'm gonna focus on the general picture and I think that a critical source of disagreement for me is that I think your arguments place too much importance on the "top level management" and not enough importance on the "middle level management" and on the culture that dictates their actions.

What I mean by this is that, sure the Twins are only two people and they aren't chaos fanatics, so upending every form of artificial order existing in the world is not something they are really interested in. But some of their followers are, and the Twins still preach "might makes right" as the source of their legitimacy, even if they start going down a more feudal route with titles, their presented rationale is never "accept our titles because it is for the greater good" but "accept our titles because we are stronger than you and so we can command whatever we want". To me this is an important distinction in the ethical foundation of any society.

Take as an example the governing of Rastedel, even if Rowan could somehow get the Twins to make a public announcement fully endorsing his chosen governor and saying their word is law, that wouldn't stop other believers of "might makes right" to still be willing to challenge Jacques or Patricia, specially if they actually tried to reach for more humanitarian values, because they think themselves stronger than these pathetic humans and they would only take direct orders from the Twins or someone stronger than them, of course the Twins could take offense to this and slaughter that person for their impertinence, but they could also agree with their argument and patronizingly tell the human governor they are being too soft, as we have seen such situations play out in the Twins' own castle and Rowan struggling to maintain a chain of command.

And this is all assuming the issues were even being brought up to the big shots like Rowan or Jacques/Patricia, a city the size of Rastedel will have plenty of nameless administrators that will be even further removed from the Twins and have even less power and legitimacy to keep their underlings from challenging them, and this is still assuming most of the city staff won't be replaced by orcs and demons that subscribe to "might makes right" and are absolutely fine with many civical transgressions that could occur under their watch. You can argue Rastedel will eventually reach a new balance and "get used to their new neighbours", but I really don't think any new status quo will leave them much better than slaves, with constant rapes, thefts, and other forms of abuse going completely unpunished by the new authorities, with or without the Twins' involvement.

I simply do not think a society holding to principles of "might makes right" (even if said principles aren't being taken to their logical extreme) can scale to functional leadership of a city the size of Rastedel, it would require a revolution led by iconic leadership championing more communal values, which the Twins aren't because they are outwardly impulsive, selfish, and imoral fucks.
 

gamingdevil800

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Of course, Marianne is a powerful individual who can greatly enhance any force she's part of, and Werden appears to be one of the few competent generals employed by the Six Realms. Well, Five Realms now. I don't doubt their ability to make military contributions. But...

For the first question, does everything end when peace is restored? Do the famines end? Are the dead peasants resurrected? The burnt villages rebuilt, the sacked manors refurnished? There's going to be a long reconstruction period, both for the pre-existing problems and the new ones the Twins built. And when that happens, who is Werden going to favor? The nobles who he relies on support, and who are at the head of Solansia's Order? Or the peasants, who are the ones who can barely survive the remaining season and need immediate aid? And even if he isn't cruel and short-sighted enough to stiff them, can the same be said for every noble at his side, who he relies on to carry out his suggestions for how to handle their own territory? Because they didn't exactly make a great impression back in Rastadel.

And, for that matter... Does the Kingdom's own wishes even matter after this? Because it was already deep under Prothea's influence before this - and now, Prothean troops are going to be at the front of retaking it. The food and supplies to rebuild probably aren't going to be locally sourced either. After something like this, will they be able to maintain even the fiction of independence, or will the decisions made on the ground instead be made in some far-flung court that's more preoccupied with their own problems? Even for rebels with the best of intentions, such arrangements don't tend to work out well for the freedom fighters. At worst, the puppet regime ends up with all the aid going to prop up their own power while their chosen favorites live a life of luxury, and the rubble never gets rebuilt at all.

None of this is worth it if things just go back to the way they were before Rowan left his cell - if that happens, he's just a coward who should have chosen a more dignified death. He can't just ensure the Twins lose, because the Twins would have lost already without him. He has to make sure that the right people win as well, and that means someone who understand that there were more flaws to the old system than "peasants rising above their station".

And as for the Twin's benevolence... Are the Twins immortal? Unbeatable? Is suffering them for a year or five that much worse than a tyrannical or incompetent king from years years past? I mean, I could easily picture Andras ordering one out of every five villages razed in response to a peasant insurrection - but truly, the Twins really do seem preoccupied with what's right in front of them. This isn't an assault from an army of Skordreds, intent on remaking the world - it's an army "lead" by people interested in their own amusement and self-aggrandizement, who see this as a sort of game that lets them demand everyone kneel before them. Andras might be a butcher who kills half the people he wanders across, but that's a problem for the capital - everyone outside his eyesight will likely be fine. Jezera might demand that every pretty boy and girl in the kingdom be brought to her for inspection, but it amounts to a petty distraction at most; she loses interest in her toys quickly, and she leaves them in good enough condition that they can still work afterwards.

And if this was them "playing nice", if they were only holding back enough to get a single, semi-functioning country before demanding that everything past it be burnt... Well, frankly, the Twins are still in a terrible position without him. Their army of orcs are the remnants from the last army to try this "conquer the world" shtick, and were already being harried to destruction by Prothea already when you found them. Daenara was described as an army of her own, and is still out there, as are the other armies. And the Twins have lost the advantage of surprise - the other kingdoms are going to switch to a war footing now.

If the Twins aren't willing to be "reasonable", to stick to things that are appalling-but-not-quite-past-Rowan's-line, then he can simply quit, and those atrocities will be prevented as his side falls apart without him. And yeah, they'll kill him for it, possibly Alexia as well. But they'll still lose. He doesn't need to empower people like Werden to make that happen.



Historically speaking, taking the city without sacking it was probably a fantasy to begin with. As much as Rowan rages, prior to the modern era, this was just how things were done; sacking "only" half the city would have been kinder than anyone would have expected (and one reason I'm glad to be living in the modern era, even if I think social media is going to get us all killed).

He might have lost sight of this in the moment, but what he really wanted was for Rastadel to be taken mostly intact - and that's what he got (ironically, the most damage done was probably at the hands of the fire he set). The people who didn't want to fight to the bitter end appear to have made it to safe zones, and the tools necessary to keep the city running weren't outright destroyed. Did it look as pretty as he had hoped? No, obviously not. This is still an army of demons and orcs taking a major human settlement. But for all his PTSD, he still saved a hell of a lot of people doing it this way.

And, sack aside, what comes after the sack? Are the Twins really in charge of the city now? Or did they hand things off to a human governor (handpicked by Rowan, no less, if he doesn't go with Werden) who lacks their particular tastes and need merely ensure that the quotas are met and the rebels are cowed? Because it looks like they're still going to be reigning from Bloodmeen, and from Jezera's dismissive comments regarding governors, don't really care how the city is run. If the twins are going to be like a hurricane, tearing up a region before blowing past, that might not even be the worst of things - it tears apart the old order, lets Rowan set a framework for a new one, and leaves it to its own devices while a new shiny object catches the Twins eye.

Of course, it's probably not going to be that clean. They probably are going to make new demands of the city that Rowan will be loathe to grant. But how much Rastadel and the other occupied territories suffer is probably going to come down to how well he can manage the Twins - and that, in turn, is easier if they don't treat everything he says as a plot because he let Werden go.

But, that aside, this also presupposes that the Twins stay in charge - but Rowan has recruited plenty of people who are personally loyal to him, and only to the Twins by extension. If he so chooses, he does have the tools he needs to launch an internal rebellion, one that would doom the Twins cause - he's not yet in a position where he could take over with any hope of defeating the humans as well, but he can certainly ensure the Twins lose without relying on Werden.



Personally, I don't mind the idea of another scene like the destruction of the army that could be prevented if you sided with Werden, and think it could enhance the narrative. But, like you say, that would make it more a bright spot on an otherwise doomed timeline in my eyes. In terms of things that might otherwise give me pause... Maybe the Dark Elves demanding the genocide of the Elves as terms for an alliance insisted upon by Jezera? Maybe?

A likable character surviving on Werden's route while dying on others sounds perfectly reasonable to me, though. That tends to be a good vehicle for conveying tragedy (an important element of this story), and it's a tool that's already been used; I like both Jacques and Patricia, but one of them will always die.



On the one hand, the idea of continuous benefits sounds good to me, but on the other... It strikes me that it would be easy for this to become an "informed attribute" at best, and outright counterproductive at worst. I mean, what does that continuous stream look like in terms of mechanics? Lowered thresholds for certain checks, maybe? But that's something that could easily be overlooked.

But it's pretty easy to imagine why this prolonged war would involve a lot more dead orcs on your part (mechanically, lowered recruitment numbers), depopulated villages (lower gold income), and a host of war-related expenses (higher upkeep). And it's still your army taking the brunt of this. But hamstringing your own success doesn't really sound like a fun game, so... I don't know how to make this fun, mechanically coherent, and continuous. Narratively speaking, "only shows up at key moments" sounds like the better way to go.



Just as a point of order, though - it was still "his" nobles who feasted at multiple points during Rastadel's plotline in the middle of a famine, and who offered up a lot of stupid ideas when things started going wrong (admittedly, while they were panicking). To say nothing of the fact that Raeve was amongst his men.

He might believe they need to be better, but he certainly seems more compromising on this point than he is with the peasants.



I just don't see those measures holding after wartime unless he redistributes the actual land, the basis of feudal power. And I just don't see the other nobles accepting that level of power over them - it's something they'd hold dearer than their own lives, as it's the core of what makes their families important. Even they don't care about themselves, they still care about their families.

A rotten peace is worse than a chaotic world, because a chaotic world will always stabilize with time (at least when we're talking about humans); absent external intervention, someone eventually crawls the to the top of the ashes, and forces everyone else into line. It may be costly, it may be painful, and the new peace may be a bitter one, but a new society always rises from the old - humans are fundamentally social creatures who don't enjoy killing each other all the time. The only question is whether the pain is worth it, and from the glimpse we got at the capital, it certainly looks worth it now.

Of course, it would obviously be better to minimize the pain and chaos that replacing the old order would entail. Which is why it's important that Rowan make things as clean as possible, something that a campaign of active resistance from Werden would seem to work against.



I think the cat's out of the bag at this point. Even if Werden was inclined to keep his mouth shut, every noble at the lodge saw him accuse Rowan and lock him up - and even if his camp doesn't talk, there were plenty of people who saw him at the sack, and at the following festivities. It would be extremely strange if they were able to keep the person running things anonymous now that they've taken a city of Rastadel's size.



I'm thinking more of the long-term consequences here than the short-term tragedies. Essentially; will the Twin's influence fundamentally change these communities, or simply subject them to temporary suffering? When the Twins die or are defeated, will these villages have internalized anything from being ruled by Chaos, or will it have been no different than having a particularly cruel lord for a generation?

If there's no fundamental transformation, then whether the mountain duchy holds out or not makes little difference outside of the strategic considerations - they're going be suffering from the war either way. If rule by the Twins did cause them to break more permanently from Solansia's orders, then keeping them from that would present a more meaningful distinction.



One complication here is that nobody in the game (other than Skordred and some orcs) truly follows or cares about "Might Makes Right" - Rowan certainly doesn't, and he's the one running things. The Twins were inclined to cast it aside. Some characters in the game do advocate for it, but always defer back to Rowan because, well, he's the warlord here, and he's actively managing things.

"Might Makes Right" may be their justification, but what it becomes in practice is making cases to Rowan, who chooses based on what he thinks is best. This doesn't differ significantly from an absolute monarchy; the only difference is that Rowan rules by right of continued success, and everyone is free to appeal to him without needing a noble title to back them up.

Of course, it'd completely fall apart after the death of Rowan and the Twins, as a power struggle tears things apart in the absence of a single clear successor, but... Well, that gets back to the part where they don't really follow "Might Makes Right" - if the game went on long enough, they'd certainly ensure that there was an heir competent enough to claim things on their own merit.



I disagree, personally; life as a refugee in that situation would be horrible. They'd literally have nothing but the clothes on their back, be weakened from the long march out of the kingdom, and almost certainly lack any useful skills (a craftsman without their tools isn't much of a craftsman, and they'd be trying to break into an established market without any capital). Most of them would die; those that don't, would be surviving on charity that can't deal with the number of victims.

And this is setting aside the fact that they would be treated with scorn and suspicion by the people they fled to; a country will pat itself on the back for accepting a handful of refugees, but once there are enough that it takes actual effort to do the right thing, they start to resent them and look for excuses to force them along. This is before the rumors start spreading about spies and shapeshifters hiding amongst the refugees, waiting to take down the kingdom by surprise like they took down Rosaria.

Meanwhile, those that stayed... Well, I wouldn't expect it to go well for them, necessarily. But I expect that they'll have homes and food, and that jobs (real jobs, not slave jobs) will soon be arranged for everyone as soon as they work out how much economic capacity was burnt out of the place. And as time goes on, things will go back to relative normal as routines resume, people adapt to their new neighbors, and the Twins learn how much they can play with the city before it starts causing them more problems than fun. As for where things go from there... Well, that depends on the war, I suppose.
 
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kiljaeden

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If you care about Rowan and Alexia only and nobody else I think killing of Werden and Marienne is a good thing. Eventually our couple will take over everything and nobody important can oppose them. Don't forget that Alexia is becoming an overpowered sorceress and she will be the key to overthrow twins. Also pretty much everybody in the twins' castle prefers Rowan over twins as far as I know. In this situation there is no reason to keep any strong figure alive in Rastadel. I am sure that devs will make an ending with Rowan and Alexia are ruling over everybody with a soft dictatorship.
 

05841035411

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I do not think it is quite correct to assume the Twins would have already failed without him, I think it is a safe bet to say everything up to Raeve's keep would have gone exactly the same and it was much more about them testing Rowan as an agent rather than needing him as one. Even after that I'd say things would have gone similarly, the orcs would have been recruited, the Rastedel army heading towards Raeve's keep would have still been sniped, it would just probably not have been quite as clean. Same even for the actual conquest of Rastedel, Jezera had agents in the city long before Rowan step foot in it, without Rowan maybe they don't manipulate the coup into happening at such a perfect timing, but they would have still had the forces to conquer the city.

Being able to protect Alexia and mitigating the Twins' damage have been Rowan's personal justifications from day 1, but it only really works because of the assumption that he couldn't have really stopped any of what they have done up to this point, which I do think is true. But at some point Rowan's impact as an asset will stop being about just making things easier for the Twins and will start being about actually enabling them to achieve things they wouldn't be able to without him, and I think that starts with Rowan eliminating capable opposition. The question becomes about for how long Rowan can justify what he's doing as being the lesser evil.

Of course this goes back to the meta-level discussion that this is a videogame and we know Werden and Marianne won't be as critical as that, but narratively speaking, the idea that making sure Werden and Marianne die pathetically without being able to lift as much as a finger against the Twins was the first real thing they maybe wouldn't have been able to do without Rowan is a little interesting.
They could probably have taken Raeve's Keep on their own, but I don't know that they could have gone past that. Bear in mind that their original plan was "Ally with the Dark Elves, then march on Prothea", which... Well, if they could have pulled it off, they'd have conquered the Six Realms. It's just that they had about a 0% chance of doing that. Plus, both of the Twins were rather overconfident prior to that; Jezera thought she'd have the Dark Elves eating out of her hand, but lost her temper and killed an important negotiating partner, while Andras had dreadfully underestimated what the Prothean legions could accomplish prior to actually reading a book.

As for the resources they had at hand... They had a small band orcs that Andras kept killing for failing him, Jezera's band of eclectics, a few mages of dubious loyalty, the ruins of an evil castle, and Cla-Min. No scouts, no cubi, and no equipment. If they wanted to build a secret society, that would probably be enough to make some serious headway, but to openly conquer a kingdom? It would have been a fantasy without a hero, and a whole lot of luck.

Plus, they were pretty panicked at Astarte; Jezera's first thought was to retreat, while Andras would have brashly thrown his life away in a doomed battle. They had the tools to win without him, but not the knowledge of how - it was only by Rowan breaking down the situation that Jezera realized how powerful her contribution to the battle could be. Andras wouldn't have been interested or able to talk things out like that.

And while I say that "they had the tools", I'm not so certain of that in practice - they were able to get an Orc army because Rowan was able to settle things in an Orc way, ensuring the legitimacy of their warchief. If it needed to be left to Andras, he probably would have just killed one, and intimidated the other - leaving the followers of the losing side discontented and not truly loyal to the chief who now appears weak in the eyes of the tribe. It would be a smaller, weaker army, when they were already outnumbered on the field.

Prior to Astarte, Rowan's contribution was really just to make the Twins a credible power at all, organizing what they already had - but Astarte is where he really started to make the Twin's dreamed conquest a reality, instead of just speeding up something that could have happened without him.


My impression is that Werden is uncompromising with the notion that peasants shouldn't challenge nobles because he prizes the maintenance of order above all else, not because he is particularly more cruel or demanding with the peasants in an individual level. This doesn't help much during peace times where the peasants are the only ones suffering and Werden needs to negotiate for the support of the nobility, but I do expect better from his leadership during war times.

Of course that might not mean much for you since you are mostly focused on meaningful lasting transformations when it comes to the results of the game, but I never really thought that far ahead when trying to come up with merits for Werden's route, just them being able to keep the kingdom from being quite as destroyed during the war is as far of a reach as I could picture.
I agree that Werden doesn't seem particularly cruel to me; cold and callous, yes, as one can see from his conversation with Rowan as they burn the homes near the wall, but I never got the impression that he particularly enjoyed being a heel.

But his philosophy still has a disproportionate impact on the peasantry because he can enforce it on peasants in a way that he cannot do unto his peers. If a peasant rises above his station, he can push them back into the ground, even if it's one of the Six Heroes; if a fellow noble decides to throw a feast every evening, the most he can do is give them dark looks and snide comments. Heck, such a noble might even have more soft power than him because they're networking at the capital constantly, while he's the irritation who keeps demanding difficult changes to protect the kingdom.

In another light, it's an example of how an uncompromising philosophy that doesn't consider the specifics of the problem can cause a hell of a lot of harm despite the best of intentions. Just how Werden inadvertently launched the events of the game when he ensured Rowan would be sent back to the farm with no protection, honestly.

As far as the second paragraph goes, though - you'd be right. I don't care that Werden means well, just what the outcomes are likely to be. It does raise another thought on my part, though; how our different views on the Twin's success without Rowan weigh on the value of Werden. From my perspective, Rowan could have ended this already by dying, so saving Werden is just an ill-considered half-measure on his part; a sop to his conscience because he couldn't go all the way. But if the Twins could have taken Rastadel without him, then he did indeed have a meaningful impact on the war situation that outweighs his own contributions to the Twins cause.

(Of course, if they could have won without him, then he really didn't need to beat himself up that much after Astarte and Rastadel, but... Details. He has no way of knowing the answer either way.)

I won't breakdown the rest of your post because I agree with some of the stuff and for the ones I don't I feel discussing it by parts would have me repeating previous points, so instead I'm gonna focus on the general picture and I think that a critical source of disagreement for me is that I think your arguments place too much importance on the "top level management" and not enough importance on the "middle level management" and on the culture that dictates their actions.

What I mean by this is that, sure the Twins are only two people and they aren't chaos fanatics, so upending every form of artificial order existing in the world is not something they are really interested in. But some of their followers are, and the Twins still preach "might makes right" as the source of their legitimacy, even if they start going down a more feudal route with titles, their presented rationale is never "accept our titles because it is for the greater good" but "accept our titles because we are stronger than you and so we can command whatever we want". To me this is an important distinction in the ethical foundation of any society.

Take as an example the governing of Rastedel, even if Rowan could somehow get the Twins to make a public announcement fully endorsing his chosen governor and saying their word is law, that wouldn't stop other believers of "might makes right" to still be willing to challenge Jacques or Patricia, specially if they actually tried to reach for more humanitarian values, because they think themselves stronger than these pathetic humans and they would only take direct orders from the Twins or someone stronger than them, of course the Twins could take offense to this and slaughter that person for their impertinence, but they could also agree with their argument and patronizingly tell the human governor they are being too soft, as we have seen such situations play out in the Twins' own castle and Rowan struggling to maintain a chain of command.

And this is all assuming the issues were even being brought up to the big shots like Rowan or Jacques/Patricia, a city the size of Rastedel will have plenty of nameless administrators that will be even further removed from the Twins and have even less power and legitimacy to keep their underlings from challenging them, and this is still assuming most of the city staff won't be replaced by orcs and demons that subscribe to "might makes right" and are absolutely fine with many civical transgressions that could occur under their watch. You can argue Rastedel will eventually reach a new balance and "get used to their new neighbours", but I really don't think any new status quo will leave them much better than slaves, with constant rapes, thefts, and other forms of abuse going completely unpunished by the new authorities, with or without the Twins' involvement.

I simply do not think a society holding to principles of "might makes right" (even if said principles aren't being taken to their logical extreme) can scale to functional leadership of a city the size of Rastedel, it would require a revolution led by iconic leadership championing more communal values, which the Twins aren't because they are outwardly impulsive, selfish, and imoral fucks.
I think you're underestimating the power of cultural inertia here, though. These are almost exclusively human settlements, who have held to Solansia's order for generations, and from a historical perspective, it is far more common for conquerors to adopt the culture of the culture of their new land than the converse. If the people at the top are actively disinterested in changing that culture, I just don't see how it happens, especially in less than a generation's time.

I mean, is anyone in Rastadel particularly interested in adopting "Might Makes Right"? We could repeal the laws on murder tomorrow, but that doesn't mean we're suddenly living in The Purge - so long as humans just aren't that interested in wantonly slaughtering each other, the fact that something becomes possible doesn't mean that it will happen. And it doesn't even look like things went that far; remember how Rowan can decide to give a village to a mercenary instead of an orc, and justify it because he's still the stronger than either of them? He still makes the rules; the place isn't in a state of anarchy during the occupation regardless of what philosophy the Twins embrace, and I strongly doubt that he's interested in having his governor displaced by force. I doubt the Twins do, either; they know all too well that it's a quick path to having a disloyal governor, considering their approval rating amongst the city. And within the city, the words of the governor are law. They have to be, or else there's functionally no governor in a situation like this. Neither Jacques nor Patricia are interested in having their staff picked by force instead of their usual selection process.

And this is further discounting the likelihood that the Twins are willing to make special exceptions for their richest, most productive territory. Even if they would encourage a more lawless philosophy in the countryside, they're not going to appreciate the workshops that make their luxuries shutting down for stupid reasons. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up learning a new lesson from the expense of getting Rastadel back into working order. Not that they won't just push it all on to Rowan, of course, but at least remember it the next time they consider smashing something expensive.

The most I see changing in Rastadel over the course of a year is that the truly useless nobility, the ones whose only worth is their name, losing what they have left. People like Patricia would be fine, because they have useful skills and those they've worked with know it. People like Werden would still command the loyalty of their retainers because they've earned it, while people like Delane can still charm people into listening to her. People like Raeve, who was only ever followed for his family name... Well, they'll sink to where they should be in a world without the power of a noble title. That's the kind of thing that can change in the course of a single generation, but I doubt that it's a change many people would mourn.

(What does "Might Makes Right" even look like outside of Orcs, for that matter? They do ritualized duels, but it doesn't seem like the rest of the Chaos races necessarily interpret it the same way.)
 

phupdup

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Oct 24, 2019
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I really don't think you want to go back to that one. They were just starting to restructure their building code, and that was two or three versions back. I haven't gotten around to playing this one to see what they might have borked this time.

Apparently forge is bugged. Funnily the forge was already bugged and someone provided a fix https://f95zone.to/threads/seeds-of-chaos-v0-2-62b-venus-noire.26/page-400#post-4371662 . It's from an older version tho, so could break something if used on the current version
 
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manscout

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(What does "Might Makes Right" even look like outside of Orcs, for that matter? They do ritualized duels, but it doesn't seem like the rest of the Chaos races necessarily interpret it the same way.)
That is honestly a great question, I don't think the game has explored much of what exactly the more chaotic kingdoms really look like. Most representants of chaos we see in the game are rather individualistic, operating as outlaws, or part of small communities.

I assume that it would mean there is no force of law that cannot be overruled by right of conquest (meaning if someone does something underhanded or forbidden to seize power, that cannot be held against them on principle alone). It is not that I don't think a "Might Makes Right" empire couldn't exist, but that such an empire would consist of smaller communities, each tightly controlled by a tribal leader who swears fealty to an emperor that is presented as many times their superior. That way even if control of a small tribe is upturned internally, that could never lead to thoughts of insurrection against the emperor himself. The issue to me is that I do not see how a "Might Makes Right" system of any kind could translate into functional urban administration, city politics often revolve around complex organizational issues that benefit more from stable protocols than the arbitrary decisions of individual administrators, and the later sound more likely to happen in "Might Makes Right".

As for the rest of the post, you made some good points and I don't think I have much to add. At most I think it should be kept in mind that certain elements of the cultures in SoC are tied to factual power because magic. As in, priests of Solansia can receive real power just by staying true to her will, same for priests of Kairos. Even if the Twins aren't fanatics themselves and they are occupying a traditionally human kingdom, it might be in their best interest to crush Solansian presence in the kingdom to avoid potentially dangerous religious insurgency, and they might have to listen to the Kairos hardliners because they might have real power to actually back any demands they make to the Twins.
 

05841035411

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That is honestly a great question, I don't think the game has explored much of what exactly the more chaotic kingdoms really look like. Most representants of chaos we see in the game are rather individualistic, operating as outlaws, or part of small communities.

I assume that it would mean there is no force of law that cannot be overruled by right of conquest (meaning if someone does something underhanded or forbidden to seize power, that cannot be held against them on principle alone). It is not that I don't think a "Might Makes Right" empire couldn't exist, but that such an empire would consist of smaller communities, each tightly controlled by a tribal leader who swears fealty to an emperor that is presented as many times their superior. That way even if control of a small tribe is upturned internally, that could never lead to thoughts of insurrection against the emperor himself. The issue to me is that I do not see how a "Might Makes Right" system of any kind could translate into functional urban administration, city politics often revolve around complex organizational issues that benefit more from stable protocols than the arbitrary decisions of individual administrators, and the later sound more likely to happen in "Might Makes Right".
I can imagine some Chaos societies dealing with this a bit better than others; we don't know much about the goblin tribes, for instance, but they revere trickiness and sneaking, while looking down on "big man strength" and "cheating magic". Their case could be a mirror of Tarish's, where you can, technically, just go up and shank the leader - but nobody will respect that victory, and will choose to follow someone else who better matches their picture of the "strongest".

In this case, being able to work well with others becomes a high-priority skillset, because it's no longer about individual strength per se, but "might" in the sense of "how many people can you talk into following you". Making sound judgments for the good of the whole translates well into overseeing a large community, and is conducive to that task - right before you make a selfish judgment to unseat a rival, but that happens in human cities often enough as-is. So long as it's not taken too far, it's a manageable problem.

As for the rest of the post, you made some good points and I don't think I have much to add. At most I think it should be kept in mind that certain elements of the cultures in SoC are tied to factual power because magic. As in, priests of Solansia can receive real power just by staying true to her will, same for priests of Kairos. Even if the Twins aren't fanatics themselves and they are occupying a traditionally human kingdom, it might be in their best interest to crush Solansian presence in the kingdom to avoid potentially dangerous religious insurgency, and they might have to listen to the Kairos hardliners because they might have real power to actually back any demands they make to the Twins.
Do we know enough about magic in Seeds of Chaos to say that definitively? I recall the Cliohna talking to Alexia about communing and channeling, referencing both divine and chaotic entities, but it didn't really sound like belief was necessarily a prerequisite. Of course, what with Cliohna despising Solansia, that might only reflect Chaos's side of the ledger - it'd make sense to me that they're a bit looser about that sort of thing.

And from the Church taking in magically gifted individuals from a young age, it doesn't seem that belief on its own carries any particular power (indeed, we've seen a number of devout individuals on both sides who don't get any power for it, while we've seen more skeptical individuals like that one kid with the adventuring party granted power anyway), but rather that the Church goes out of its way to acquire people who can channel divine energy.

I do agree that the Twins have an active incentive to persecute the Solansian faith, however; it represents something intrinsically opposed to them that people can rally around. But it would be enough to go after the symbols of the faith and the priests, I think - uprooting the culture itself is more trouble than its worth, especially if they want these places functional during the war.
 

T51bwinterized

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As a brief aside, most of the ambiguity that brings up is intentional. The power relationship between the twins and the Program Priesthood and the Cult of Chaos is something I definitely want to explore further. More then that, I want to give players a chance to take the society they're building down multiple different paths to see the extent that this kind of counterfactual might change the world .

I'm not going to dole out definitive answers in this question.

However one of the core problems is a question I've been eager to explore.

What is the moral character of revolutionary violence? If an existing society is bad but in a stable way, what is an appropriate ethical response? How might different types of revolutionary response differ morally? I don't think it's an issue with clear answer, and I think it'd be bad for any of the SoC team to insist there is a moral clarity.
 

05841035411

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As a brief aside, most of the ambiguity that brings up is intentional. The power relationship between the twins and the Program Priesthood and the Cult of Chaos is something I definitely want to explore further. More then that, I want to give players a chance to take the society they're building down multiple different paths to see the extent that this kind of counterfactual might change the world .
As an aside, I actually got a bit of an SMT vibe when I first saw the setting - Solansia and Kharos both represent some pretty unpleasant extremes, but... Trying to go down the middle leaves you with no patron in a world where the others get superpowers.

Though at least unlike SMT, trying to go down the middle road doesn't leave the world completely screwed! At least, not that we can see yet.

I'm not going to dole out definitive answers in this question.

However one of the core problems is a question I've been eager to explore.

What is the moral character of revolutionary violence? If an existing society is bad but in a stable way, what is an appropriate ethical response? How might different types of revolutionary response differ morally? I don't think it's an issue with clear answer, and I think it'd be bad for any of the SoC team to insist there is a moral clarity.
...This game is going to make me look like some kind of extremist just because I'm more focused on the end result than the horrors I'm unleashing each day, isn't it >_> . I swear my Rowan is low-corruption! It's just that, well, revolution is a messy and unpleasant business, and the best way to do the least harm is to ensure it's over as quickly as possible, regardless of the costs...

Jokes aside, though, one thing I enjoy about this game is how it can ask a question like that alongside Rowan being offered all sorts of debauchery, so that we can distinguish between a Rowan who decides that the ends justify the means and a Rowan who's just a plain bad person; a Rowan who decides that destroying Delane's mind is an acceptable sacrifice from one who seduces Juliet purely to hurt her father.

Though, just to chime in on one possibility presented by the game; I think Jacques had a pretty good idea going there, one better than working with the Twins to conquer the world... But I do wonder if it would have worked out in practice. Could he have ever launched a coup if it weren't for the Twins? Would Prothea really have let him get away with it (sincere question, not rhetorical - I don't really know how hardline they are)? Once the crisis is past, would his reforms persevere or would the castes harden again to freeze out the limited social mobility he'd earned? Reform is basically always preferable to revolution, but only if there's a realistic chance of reform, instead of having it dangled like a carrot always just out of reach.

I mention this because it's an added tragedy to the game if Rowan ended up burning down a genuine solution to Rosaria's problems, even if he had little choice in the matter. I still think that all of... This, would be justified if there's a better world at the end of it, but it would still be regrettable that it displaced a cleaner path forward.
 
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T51bwinterized

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I quite like Jacques. And I'm not going to imply anything sinister about him. But when considering the desireability of his ideas one does have to look at the relationship between the messenger and his message....perhaps as well the way he delivers the message.
 

New Kid

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On the subject of the "we don't know how the twins would fare without Rowan's help", we can make an educated guess by listening to the lore of the past wars, which say that Rastedel was never taken by demons. It's clear that Andras isn't the sharpest one around and relies solely on his brute strength to get things done, while Jezera paints herself as a master manipulator but her temper actually gets the better of her at times and makes her botch some important matters as what happened with the dark elves, and her "panicking" at Astarte. So yeah, without Rowan I highly doubt they would manage to take Rastedel and even in the unlikely event they did, they wouldn't be able to hold if for long.

Let's not forget that the forces of chaos also have their own quarrels too, it's not just human society. The 2 warring Fey factions, the orcs and even those chaos cultists don't seem to be on the same page for what they want after the things settle down. It's much easier to keep different views together during wartime while you still have a common enemy, but after that I suppose that civil war will follow inside our own ranks depending on what we do, hell I think that at some point even the twins will turn on each other and force us to choose a side.
 

T51bwinterized

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The twins have several advantages distinct from Rowan that gives them a leg on prior demon lords.

- The huge tactical and strategic advantage of the portal network that Jezera constructed.
- The relative proximity to the prior war and ability to catch the Solansians with their pants down.
- The fact that there are *two* of them (with complimentary skill sets) and they aren't murdering each other. Unheard of.

But they have distinct disadvantages too.

- Neither is as powerful as their father
- Their half demon heritage gives them trouble recruiting chaos races relative to full demons
- The forces of chaos were also badly harmed by the war.

Is that enough to win without Rowan? Well that's the question, isn't it?
 
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RedPillBlues

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I have plans for events I like to call xzaratl NTRdetox - one for jezera/alexia route, one for Andras/alexia. Xzaratl in general is planned to be more reactive to what's going on with alexia and rowan than any other character. It's one of the reasons her introduction is so weighty - so more attention could be put into optional reaction events than a linear xzaratl progression plotline.
If thats the case, any chance on her getting her hands on an opposite one of those dick growth potions?
 

05841035411

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I quite like Jacques. And I'm not going to imply anything sinister about him. But when considering the desireability of his ideas one does have to look at the relationship between the messenger and his message....perhaps as well the way he delivers the message.
Oh, I don't think his world would be perfect either - like Rowan thought to himself, his ideal world was one for people who got to talk philosophy in secret clubs, not really one for the common peasant, and it was pretty clear that he was still detached from the reality of poverty. Not to mention that for all his talk about the importance of real-world experience, it was pretty clear he didn't have much of his own. But... I do think it's the best that one could get for a feudal society like theirs. The people in charge have to be educated, and that's a privilege that only nobles and wealthy merchants can afford. Even if social mobility only exists for the middle and upper classes, that's still enough to ensure that the people in charge won't be complete disasters.

And his sales pitch about how everyone benefits when the person doing the job is actually capable of doing the job... Well, there's a lot of truth to that. It does invite a lot of other questions about deciding who should be in charge of things, but it's better than what they're currently doing.
 
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manscout

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Jun 13, 2018
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As a brief aside, most of the ambiguity that brings up is intentional. The power relationship between the twins and the Program Priesthood and the Cult of Chaos is something I definitely want to explore further. More then that, I want to give players a chance to take the society they're building down multiple different paths to see the extent that this kind of counterfactual might change the world .

I'm not going to dole out definitive answers in this question.

However one of the core problems is a question I've been eager to explore.

What is the moral character of revolutionary violence? If an existing society is bad but in a stable way, what is an appropriate ethical response? How might different types of revolutionary response differ morally? I don't think it's an issue with clear answer, and I think it'd be bad for any of the SoC team to insist there is a moral clarity.
I suppose that for an uncompromising deontologist, a revolution would always be moral once all other more peaceful options were exhausted, as something "wrong" should not be ignored no matter the cost to fix it (funny enough this would lend itself well to a "Might Makes Right" philosophy, for if my values enable me to become mightier than my opponents then they are the "right" way and a victorious revolution would be proof of that).

For a hardcore utilitarianist, the answer would be "only god knows". There would exist an ideal moment in time where the costs of maintaining an outdated power structure would outweigh the costs of a revolution in a quantifiable manner, but good luck ever figuring out when that would be.

Somewhere in the middle, I believe a good moral heuristic is to consider how the revolution relates to the sovereignty of the people affected by it, which to me creates the following ranking:
1. A genuine revolution (ample popular participation and it reflects the conscious needs of the population rather than mere manipulation).
2. A coup orchestrated by domestic factions
3. A coup orchestrated by foreign powers
4. Conquest/Colonization

A genuine popular revolution would in type be the least reproachable one (although ideally violence of any sort would be a last resort), as long as the popular revolution wasn't centered around a manipulated mob mentality and the outlined goals of the revolution were not needlessly cruel in nature, I think such a revolution could be violent without becoming necessarily immoral, for it would be the people's own decision, their values would decide if a conflict that concerns their lives would be worthwhile.

Something orchestrated by domestic factions is generally not more than a power struggle among elites, but at least as long as said elites are domestic, they will to some extent reflect the local values of the people's shared culture in their goals. This logic unfortunately doesn't hold very well as societies increase in size and the cultural divide between the powerful and the powerless widens, which causes people to be led into shedding blood for causes they do not truly share.

Something orchestrated by foreign powers is always tainted by less than altruistic interests, and it requires an impossible ammount of authority over morals and values. It is only better than outright conquest/colonization because it goes through a bit of a filter with whatever local arm the foreign powers are working with.

I don't think I need to make much of a case against conquest/colonization, enough genocides have been commited under the guise of "civilizing the savages", claiming to know what's better for a people other than yours requires an impossible ammount of authority over morals and values, and if the only way you can convince them is through violence and oppression then you are probably defeating your own point.

As for how all of this relates to the game, Jacques' plot falls somewhere between a 2 and a 3. In his head it was probably a 2 since he might have thought he was in charge, but he had to be really naive to not realize it was gonna be a 3 (if not straight up a 4). Even if Jacques still manages to get a good ammount of meritocratic reforms since that's something that would be in line with Kairos philosophy, it would still be at the expense of having invited demons into his home and letting them potentially push and force any number of unwanted cultural changes into the local population. For that reason I would not excuse or justify Jacques' revolution as having a chance of being a moral one, even if it ends up having a positive side to it.

To me Jacques goes down as the man who got so obssessed with having the right to ascend that he ended up selling out everyone else in his kingdom for it.
 

05841035411

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I suppose that for an uncompromising deontologist, a revolution would always be moral once all other more peaceful options were exhausted, as something "wrong" should not be ignored no matter the cost to fix it (funny enough this would lend itself well to a "Might Makes Right" philosophy, for if my values enable me to become mightier than my opponents then they are the "right" way and a victorious revolution would be proof of that).

For a hardcore utilitarianist, the answer would be "only god knows". There would exist an ideal moment in time where the costs of maintaining an outdated power structure would outweigh the costs of a revolution in a quantifiable manner, but good luck ever figuring out when that would be.

Somewhere in the middle, I believe a good moral heuristic is to consider how the revolution relates to the sovereignty of the people affected by it, which to me creates the following ranking:
1. A genuine revolution (ample popular participation and it reflects the conscious needs of the population rather than mere manipulation).
2. A coup orchestrated by domestic factions
3. A coup orchestrated by foreign powers
4. Conquest/Colonization

A genuine popular revolution would in type be the least reproachable one (although ideally violence of any sort would be a last resort), as long as the popular revolution wasn't centered around a manipulated mob mentality and the outlined goals of the revolution were not needlessly cruel in nature, I think such a revolution could be violent without becoming necessarily immoral, for it would be the people's own decision, their values would decide if a conflict that concerns their lives would be worthwhile.

Something orchestrated by domestic factions is generally not more than a power struggle among elites, but at least as long as said elites are domestic, they will to some extent reflect the local values of the people's shared culture in their goals. This logic unfortunately doesn't hold very well as societies increase in size and the cultural divide between the powerful and the powerless widens, which causes people to be led into shedding blood for causes they do not truly share.

Something orchestrated by foreign powers is always tainted by less than altruistic interests, and it requires an impossible ammount of authority over morals and values. It is only better than outright conquest/colonization because it goes through a bit of a filter with whatever local arm the foreign powers are working with.

I don't think I need to make much of a case against conquest/colonization, enough genocides have been commited under the guise of "civilizing the savages", claiming to know what's better for a people other than yours requires an impossible ammount of authority over morals and values, and if the only way you can convince them is through violence and oppression then you are probably defeating your own point.

As for how all of this relates to the game, Jacques' plot falls somewhere between a 2 and a 3. In his head it was probably a 2 since he might have thought he was in charge, but he had to be really naive to not realize it was gonna be a 3 (if not straight up a 4). Even if Jacques still manages to get a good ammount of meritocratic reforms since that's something that would be in line with Kairos philosophy, it would still be at the expense of having invited demons into his home and letting them potentially push and force any number of unwanted cultural changes into the local population. For that reason I would not excuse or justify Jacques' revolution as having a chance of being a moral one, even if it ends up having a positive side to it.

To me Jacques goes down as the man who got so obssessed with having the right to ascend that he ended up selling out everyone else in his kingdom for it.
Jacques has no idea that his coup is going to be hijacked by demons, though? He had most of the pieces in place without Rowan (though he needed Astarte to weaken Marianne enough to make it feasible), and when he did work with Rowan, he thought he was only working with his own countryman. He didn't find out about the demons until the coup was already over, and he was being told to submit to them or watch the city be razed.

Really, it's more a case of "A country weakened by internal strife ends up conquered by a rival power keen to take advantage".

(funny enough this would lend itself well to a "Might Makes Right" philosophy, for if my values enable me to become mightier than my opponents then they are the "right" way and a victorious revolution would be proof of that).
It reminds me of the Mandate of Heaven; my revolution against the old dynasty clearly proves they have lost Heaven's favor (as well as the natural disasters that happened around that time, which are clearly a symptom of the mandate's loss and not, say, the reason why a bunch of peasants are now starving and angry), and the fact that I triumphed over them is proof that I've won the new mandate.

I guess "Might Makes Right" did work out in our own history at one point, then?... /joking
 
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