Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.10] [Vénus Noire]

[monk_56]

I for one hope Hels story rework focuses on adding to her knight pathing.

Hel is my favorite character and the narrative of her just becoming some sort of cum-dump for the ring as a foil for the evilness of the twins and the orcs just makes me sad / is boring. Her "bad end" pathing is fleshed out enough- with tons of content and narrative.

Her knight pathing (non-escape) is relatively cursory with lots of room for growth into a romance with a healty dose of narrative tension arising out of her trying to understand if she has her feelings b/c of the ring or b/c of herself.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Because I know there are people here who'd enjoy it, let me give you an example of how such a methodology worked in the Liurial example.

I started by asking myself a basic question. What is Liurial's story abiut and what is her narrative functions in other stories.

There were my pre-rework answers.

Liurial: Her narrative in of itself is about a sort of transaction. She has certain needs and is willing to take a leap of faith to fulfill said needs. Rowan is the one she desires to make the transaction with because he has the power to fulfill those needs. Her story is that leap of faith.

Rowan: To Rowan, Liurial represents the positive side of the duality of his role in Bloodmeen. He is simultaneously empowered and disempowered and the existence of subordinates in social positions and sexual partners who are submissive to him represents one form of perks.

Alexia: To Alexia, Liurial represents a confrontation with Rowan and Power. Unlike other sexual conquests for Rowan, Rowan has Liurial explicitly because she is in his power. Thus she forces Alexia to have a stance on the relationship of Rowan's power and their relationship visa vie Rowan (and Alexia) sleeping with Liurial.

The Twins: Surprisingly nonplussed with no reac

What we see here is that the intended purpose of Liurial is a statement about Rowan and Power. The more he engaged with Liurial the more he engaged with his own power.

So, the next step when designing the story is asking how to improve on those elements of the story.

Thus:

- Liurial's motives for entering the deal and the broader picture of what she wants and needs has become better defined and more complex. In the process, allowing more room for that transaction and her relationship to that transaction to evolve in interesting ways. That way her story is a more complete story even if just through her eyes.

- Rowan's relationship with Liurial has been defined to be more clearly an act of power, because it now required him to use his power to secure her. And subsequent sex scenes have greater emphasized possessiveness (even in the vanilla scenes), emphasizing the social power inherent in her aquisition. Thus making her narrative more clearly a parallel to Rowan's evolving social role.

- Her Maledom scenes have been reworked so it more clearly has an arc to it. If they're supposed to be the psychosexual component of Rowan being put in a position where he has a submissive woman at his be ck and call for the first time. Then:
1. Since players should be able to define Rowan's sexuality, players should actually have a choice to define if Rowan actually engages her sexually and how.
2. For people who want Mdom scenes should start with emphasizing Rowan being a novice to the role and have an echoing narrative if Rowan getting as comfortable with his sexual power as he is getting with the power aspects of his dual social role.

- You guys will see more with Alexia soon here, but I've been very focused on the question of "What is the relationship between Alexia and Rowan's growing position of influence?"

- With the twins, it felt off that they didn't have a reaction to Rowan's social position evolving. Are they happy with him indulging in the power aspects? Do part of them feel threatened? Is it both? Neither? Thus I felt that Jezera should be added as an antagonist to the arc so there is a relational aspect. As Rowan is both empowered and disempowered, in what ways is he able to sustain his power from the threat of disempowerment? How does this aspect evolve?

 

[monk_56]

T51bwinterized

Some interesting layers to unpack there. Thanks for the thoughts; I would be very, very interested to see a simmilar breakdown of narrative functions for Hel. Thanks for giving us forum dwelling Liurial fans something to mull over.

1) I love that you always consider underlying motivations when character-creating; particularly in relation to their sexualities.

I feel like there is a lot of pressure on Seeds to just include random Character x Character scenes "b/c hot" as fan service- and it often makes 0 sense. I'm glad the dev team is somewhat resistant to that 'porn first story second' mentality.

2) Both of Liu's new scenes are godlike. Choosing a route with her is difficult to say the least.

3) I hadn't been considering the power dynamic aspect of the narrative in regards being simultaneously empowered vs disempowered within the meta-context of the story; and that is pretty cool.

 

[Semantics]

Seeds of Chaos Extended Scene Replay Mod
by MonkOne​

Features:

• Add all scenes in Walkthrough file to scenes replay.
• Option to filterout NTR and/or gay scenes in scenes replay.

Download:

• Attachment

Install:

• Extract downloaded archive into game folder(where executable file is).

Changelog:
Version 0303M:

• Update to game version 0.3.03. All new scenes with cg and new cgs added to replay.

Spoiler: Older

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Preview View attachment 1144925

Enabling console with the mod installed currently crashes the game with an error at start.

Spoiler: Error

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Fixed it for myself via commenting out the label line, but I haven't seen those scenes in question yet or much of your mod's code so dunno if that's the actual solution I should have used. It runs now, at least. XD

Does anyone know the new console commands? How do I adjust alexia's stats?

There's a list of current console commands in the post linked in my sig. If anything doesn't work, just tell me.

 

[rivon]

I see that you envisioned different angle to Helayna story.
Your desire to create interwoven story arcs is commendable so in my opinion human interaction in many ways more chaotic and not always driven by pure purpose and meaning.
I'm sure you know what you are doing and i'm looking forward to see how you will rework and advance Helayna arc!

My actual idea about Helayna path with Rowan not claiming her was to emphasis her being abused and powerless.
Some of my points that nothing to do with corruption still stands:
1) I still think that orcs should treat Helayna harshly for killing some of there comrades if Rowan didn't step up and take her under his protection (orcs are not kind of heart in best situations). And that should be more clearly stated or even better illustrated.
2) Helayna escape
It's fact that there is no reward for people choosing path with Rowan helping Helayna escape. I believe there should be something rewarding in this path otherwise what is point for people to do it?
3) And Helayna more directly interacting with Rowan at dinner sex scene while Andras fuck her is also probably right move...

- You guys will see more with Alexia soon here, but I've been very focused on the question of "What is the relationship between Alexia and Rowan's growing position of influence?"

This is for sure a distancing factor.
With Rowan getting more and more power Alexia purpose getting less and less meaningful.
She has to step up her game.

As Rowan is both empowered and disempowered, in what ways is he able to sustain his power from the threat of disempowerment? How does this aspect evolve?

It seems obvious... there are always people unhappy with current rulers. And considering twins let's just say problematic temper.
Rowan with his growing influence will be the natural unifying point for everyone not happy with Twins rule inside castle.
This is his way of not getting disempowered. His less volatile personality always be a better alternative. Even orcs will more likly turn to Rowan to resolve there problems then to Andras to be mutilated or worse. He is in a perfect position to be a power broker in factions war inside castle (if our story telling evolve to this point in the future).

 

[T51bwinterized]

Well, the twins have a competing set of incentives. They want Rowan to be useful in a managerial and agent role, and a useful manager and agent is inherently powerful or else their usefulness is limited. They also want Rowan to be, if not loyal to them specifically, then at the very least enmeshed in the sex and culture of the castle and giving him some element of agency and power is useful to that end.

But, Rowan is a potential power player in the castle with motives that don't always intersect with theirs. Not only that, but Rowan is also an actor who has motive to explicitly work against the twins, if left to his own devices. But, the major factor that reduces their incentive to disempower him is that he's not an explicit threat of harm to them, because their power over life and death for both him and his wife is so absolute and because their power to spy on him far outweighs his power to spy on them.

Spoiler: Spoilers for the new version

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So it's not per se that Rowan's friendships and position as a rallying point to the castle's cooler heads is his primary form of power. There is a component of gathering allies, but it's still early in that process. Yet, he is definitely growing in influence, and that is a form of power. But, Rowan and his social power are more complex then merely "gathering allies".

It's worth also noting that while players on both rebelious and non-rebelious paths might see the arc as a straightforward growth in Rowan's power, some choices by the players (in particularly engaging with the twins in dynamics, being influenced by certain people who don't have Rowan's interest at heart, and the twins gaining influence on people he's emotionally ttaced too), might produce a scenario where Rowan is simultaneously falling deeper under their power, offsetting any gains.

 

[monk_56]

T51bwinterized

Damn. Another great read.

"being influenced by certain people who don't have Rowan's interest at heart" - * Glares nervously at rein's 3 castel NPCs*

 

[T51bwinterized]

Taking another second to rant, because nerd reasons. The problem of utility as power is really important to global political history. Best exemplified in "The Problem of Generals".

Basically, insofar as a head of state is concerned, an army general is inherently a source of utility and of power threat. Unless the head of state plans to command the army itself (Costly in terms of time and power/Runs risks if you are a bad general), it is optimal to find a talented person to command one or more of your armies. The larger or more modern the state, the more nessacery it becomes.

In this position, the general has the utility of having someone talented control the armies for you extending your ability to exercise or defend yourself or your interests (either personal or national depending on how self intirested you are). Several factors will make this utility rise. The more talented they are comparable to other potential generals, the more their utility rises. It means they are better at using force. A second factor is how much you need your armies. If you are a small state defended diplomatically, armies are less important and a general has less utility. If you are a large state you have some need for generals categorically. And if you are in a state of war, the utility of a general rises relative to the state of the war.

But, generals are also dangerous and often in ways directly proportional to their utility. Generals command the power to threaten the head of state in the form of force. And a particularly popular or prestigious general will often have widespread public support, giving them leeway to utilize power against the state without backlash from the populace or selectorate and with miltiary backing. The prestige of particularly vital or victorious generals and the trust of soldiers in them over the state will rise particularly in wartime. Furthermore, the same skill and intelligence in warfare that make a general skilled often can be translated into threat to you in the field or (less directly) into political cunning.

So, the constant question every head of state with notable generals has at all times is at what point does the danger of keeping a general in place outweigh the utility they offer relative to a different general? There are other factors in place (the dangers in removing a general who is popular or politically powerful regardless of their threat to you), but the utility/danger question is the main one.

We've historically seen many many examples of this problem in action. It's less common in civilian governments or constitutional systems because state development is an inherent counterweight to the threat of coups. But, it's still endemic:

Spoiler: Extended diversion into Roman History

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Then we get to the modern era. Where in WW1, a little known fact is that the governments of all of the central powers had effectively been taken over by generals by around 1917. The Kaiser was made a puppet figure by Ludendorf and Hindenburg, who ran the state and could have overthrown him or turned him into a permenant puppet at will.

Spoiler: Extended discussion of Marshall Zhukov and Stalin

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Basically, long rant done. If you can't see any parallels in this schpiel to the way that both the Twins AND the State of Rosaria have treated Rowan, you aren't paying much attention.

 

[ReaperMan30]

Enabling console with the mod installed currently crashes the game with an error at start.

Spoiler: Error

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Fixed it for myself via commenting out the label line, but I haven't seen those scenes in question yet or much of your mod's code so dunno if that's the actual solution I should have used. It runs now, at least. XD



There's a list of current console commands in the post linked in my sig. If anything doesn't work, just tell me.

could you let me know the console command for alexia? It doesn't work for the current list

 

[Semantics]

could you let me know the console command for alexia? It doesn't work for the current list

All four of the Alexia codes in my list worked for me. What issue are you having with which command? Or is it a command you want me to find and add to the list?

 

[Carso150]

as i see this this general problem only happens in absolute goverments like monarquies, empires or modern dictatorships, like you have never heard of the US getting a military coup (you do have certain generals becoming presidents but they have to run through the civilian channels to reach that power)

 

[rivon]

Basically, long rant done. If you can't see any parallels in this schpiel to the way that both the Twins AND the State of Rosaria have treated Rowan, you aren't paying much attention.

Tbh Rosaria nobles did exactly the bad move. They could knight him and give small fief of land. Thereby making mute any complains that he didnt get any reward for his service. At the same time he would be ruling two or three villages on the border fighting with orc tribes being no threat to anyone.

The whole idea of Rosaria nobility don't elevate lower classes in to the ranks of knight doesn't stand the test of history or logic.
The way Rosaria portrayed its in constant war with orcs and other creatures meaning constant casualties.
Real medieval state constantly needed more man power to fill up the ranks of professional military man.
Which get constantly depleted. The main case of loses is war attrition.
If you look in to casualties during any military campaign you will notice that majority of man died not from direct combat but through mundane diseases and bad conditions.

And only real mobile effective force in medieval times is knight regiments.
I recommend this article:

You must be registered to see the links

Basically because war was so cruel, they have to Force rich peasants who had money to arm themselves and can afford horse in to position of knight and grant them low noble title.

People usually dont understand that being relatively safe peasant actually much better option then being rank and file "noble knight" Who gonna last till next battle or guaranteed till first defeat.

Again if you think its just european situation no here is the same social class in russia :

You must be registered to see the links

Successful military carer in medieval times was a guaranteed noble title... if you survive.
And its dubious honor for many, you can gain same social position of power being merchant, in the same time you eat well, you sleep in bad and not in a harm way everyday.

 

[AlexWildfire]

Tbh Rosaria nobles did exactly the bad move. They could knight him and give small fief of land. Thereby making mute any complains that he didnt get any reward for his service. At the same time he would be ruling two or three villages on the border fighting with orc tribes being no threat to anyone.

The whole idea of Rosaria nobility don't elevate lower classes in to the ranks of knight doesn't stand the test of history or logic.
The way Rosaria portrayed its in constant war with orcs and other creatures meaning constant casualties.
Real medieval state constantly needed more man power to feel up the ranks of professional military man.
Which get constantly depleted. The main case of loses is war attrition.
If you look in to casualties during any military campaign you will notice that majority of man died not from direct combat but through mundane diseases and bad conditions.

And only real mobile effective force in medieval times is knight regiments.
I recommend this article:

You must be registered to see the links

Basically because war was so cruel, they have to Force rich peasants who had money to arm themselves and can afford horse in to position of knight and grant them low noble title.

People usually dont understand that being relatively safe peasant actually much better option then being rank and file "noble knight" Who gonna last till next battle or guaranteed till first defeat.

Again if you think its just european situation no here is the same social class in russia :

You must be registered to see the links

Successful military carer in medieval times was a guaranteed noble title... if you survive.
And its dubious honor for many, you can gain same social position of power being merchant, in the same time you eat well, you sleep in bad and not in a harm way everyday.

I belive we are the point were suspension of disbelief is needed , the developers cant know every little thing about certain topics, and at this point whats done is done. One can make up a thousand different reasons for why Werden has a broom handle up his behind while in the topic of rowan but in the end the answer is a flowery "because game happens"

Why does the rogue of the Hero party apparently has no close by allies than could help him? Cause then game would not happen, why a single noble with a foot up his ass managed to block Rowan getting some kind of reward? , cause game would not happen, why do the twins zig zag on competence levels? Cause if the game would end very quickly if they where the hyper competent versions all of the time, or the beserker and the wanna be all the time.

The point, its a fantasy world with magical fay wolf people and dragon centaurid creatures made around the idea a supposed hero gets corrupted and screws everyone including itself until the writers decide it went far enough for him to go from "pick being a good guy and get a kick to the groin" to "pick your fights carefully and you will win against the twins", real life history and logic can not be aplied.

 

[FormerlyknownasOlheden]

What the heck? It says that Alexia is ready for work, but I can't find any way to actually send her to work anywhere? Am I missing a button somewhere or is there a prequisite I haven't fulfilled somehow?. Sorry folks, did try to search for it but Alexia and Job/seemed to generic to get any good matches.

 

[Enigmanic]

What the heck? It says that Alexia is ready for work, but I can't find any way to actually send her to work anywhere? Am I missing a button somewhere or is there a prequisite I haven't fulfilled somehow?. Sorry folks, did try to search for it but Alexia and Job/seemed to generic to get any good matches.

While on the castle map screen, look in the lower righthand corner. You should see the button to set Alexia's job for the week.

 

[FormerlyknownasOlheden]

While on the castle map screen, look in the lower righthand corner. You should see the button to set Alexia's job for the week.

Sigh. I wish I did. But there's no such thing there unfortunately. I guess a bug? Thanks for your help anyway.

And just because I said that it showed up. Huh. Thanks again.

 

[rivon]

I belive we are the point were suspension of disbelief is needed , the developers cant know every little thing about certain topics

Sure some suspensions of disbelieve should always be applied.
i only go there because Winter is so in depth with his storytelling.
He obviously want to make as engaging/believable story as possible.
And i happen to know a thing or two about medieval warfare I try to point out at some social/economical facts revolving around it so that he can maybe take them in to account in the future.

, why do the twins zig zag on competence levels?

This is actually much more concerning thing for me. I felt that as well sometimes they feel incompetent and another time they omni present force you can not much. that's not right.

 

[AlexWildfire]

This is actually much more concerning thing for me. I felt that as well sometimes they feel incompetent and another time they omni present force you can not much. that's not right.

I acepted it has a unfortunate but unavoidable situation with the game, the twins need to be powerful enough to explain why rowan can just off them and end the game, but also incompetent enough to actually need him and be off his hair most of the time, there is probably a balance there, but with the event based system there would always be a disconnect unless for example half of adras stuff just got locked after he started studying actual tactics and history.

But then we have the main story events has the main perpetrator of inconsistency, Adras starts off brutish and basically a beserker, ok then, after the taking of the keep there is, or was ,a comment about how he is learning and "how old adras would not have cared for history" , and come rastadel he is back in the "i dont do much else other than running straigh ahead". To that point, ok, fair enough, he is learning but still has the fire on his blood come actual battle. the sister i will not even write the name cause i will butcher it comes out the worst in my opinion, i rarely do alexia maid events so i dont see much of her, but she has even worst jumps, she goes from being a wanna be with more power than capability, playing with the small fish stuff and having a castle worth of people she can ribon into submission, to "i actualy knew you were going to do this and punish you for trying it". i cant complain about the werden route stuff to much, makes sense i guess, girl escapes, somehow apears in rastadel, maybe sister put a few more eyes on rowan, dont explain how she is perfectly fine and you dont get any bad has long has you dont pick werden, but game choices, if we nitpick every non complete submission choice would suck. I guess we can only wait for the game to progress , the problem might be the writers being limited with only doing the first arc so they can give us to much or advance the twins to much in any direction leading to them coming off has both omni present and incompetent.

 

[Rein]

Balanacing the twins power and competence is... Difficult. Primarily because if Rowan is rebelling against the twins, it shouldn't always be a 100% sure thing.

If it's not a sure thing, then there is a chance of him being discovered.

If he's discovered, it would make sense for the twin to punish him.

BUT the game's main loop assumes Rowan goes into the field to follow the twins' orders, and the twins trust he'll further his agenda.

So if Rowan were to constantly rebel against the twins, why the hell would they keep trusting him with anything?

This is most jarring if Rowan gets caught with Helping Helayna escape. At the moment he gets a slap on the wrists and it's back to business afterwards. (I actually had an idea for this, to add some proper consequence, and as I write this, I got another idea how to implement it even better. So good thing we started this conversation.)

As far as Delane goes, it's painfully obvious Rowan had something to do with her escape if anyone is paying attention, as Tarish directly mentions the noblewoman to Andras, and later joins the twins. The twins let it slide once - once.

As for Andras... He has many hats to wear, depending on what the plot needs him to do at the moment. It might result in inconsistency over different events.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

In regards to the twins keeping Rowan in check: It seems to me that it is mostly Jezera's job to keep an eye on Rowan and watch him for any shenanigans, and it is Andras's job to threaten horrible repercussions for betrayal. But the twins also fully expect Rowan to try to betray them. They know Rowan isn't REALLY on their side. And Jezera seems to enjoy the game of it, particularly when she sees her self as winning that battle of wits.

When Rowan is testing the Amulet and tries to talk one of the the maids over to his side Jezera catches him. But this is such a minor infraction she doesn't even see any need to levy any threats. Her response is more along the lines of "I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. Come on up your game Rowan."

If Rowan gets caught helping Helayna escape, it a bigger act of defiance and he successfully pulled it off. So this does warrant a bigger response. But Helayna isn't really important to the twins. She's more of a toy, and potentially an extra leash on Rowan. But losing her isn't a big deal. Perhaps the punishment should be more than a slap on the wrist to remind him who's in charge, but not too much more because this is still with in the realm of what they expect Rowan to do. Heck, some of Cla'Min's schemes could potentially rise to this level of undermining the twins when she puts her her own profits over benefits to Bloodmeen. I could see some other characters rising to around this level of insubordination as well. I imagine it is pretty par the course for an army of Chaos.

But if Rowan sides with Werden, now it is a big deal. Now he has successfully pulled off a betrayal that posses an actual threat to their plans. It's time to bring the hammer down. They need to dish out a punishment severe enough that will give Rowan pause should he ever consider doing something like this again. Honestly I'm surprised that didn't actually do something to Alexia in this case. After all that was the major threat they've been using to keep him in line this whole time. It would even have to be something too bad, just enough so show him they were serious. It would even work along side the Delane treatment, with them letting Rowan know that Alexia actually got off pretty easy....this time...