Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.10] [Vénus Noire]

[kurupt87]

I'm not going to go super far into this. But, if a dom can only be concerned with only their own pleasure, does mean that any Dom who tortures a sub with forced orgasm is a sub?

Obviously not, the dom does it for his/her own pleasure.
That this act also involves the sub's pleasure is entirely secondary and is there only to either make the sub look bad, like "look how pathetic you are, to cum like that with what I just did to you" or to make the dom feel powerful, "I did that to you only using my foot, you loser, imagine what the rest of me might be like."

Is giving oral sex to a ties up person nessacerily a submissive act? Would Jezera be a sub if she tied up Alexia and ate her out?

Necessarily, no. But, when it isn't the scene and tone make it very bloody obvious.
The only real dom reason to do it is to go down the mind-break/corruption route of someone in sexual denial.
Assuming no relationship/emotional connection, there are far better ways to either make the dom feel powerful or the sub feel controlled. Especially oral on a woman, you can't even really threaten with teeth like you could on a man.
Apart from the dom actually enjoying eating pussy of course - again, that the sub might enjoy it is entirely secondary.
Or perhaps that cunni is an especial weakness/kink of Alexia's.

I think what you're getting mixed up with is the word pleasure.
In my original explanation I used the word pleasure to mean "getting what you want in a sexual encounter" and not physical sexual enjoyment.
How a dom views pleasure of his/her sub. Pleasure in the sub can be enjoyable to the dom because the sub is controlled by it, not because they're enjoying it and having a good time (that'd be for someone in a relationship).
Have you ever read Wheel of Time? I will assume you have and will recall to you one of the Forsaken, I think Semirhage, whose most effective method of torture was pleasure. It can be used to control a person, just like pain, and is much more difficult to resist (it's just realistically much harder to find and deliver pleasure than it is pain but, cheaty magic OPOP).
So, sexual enjoyment/pleasure inflicted on a sub by a dom is done to control them, not to make them happy.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Obviously not, the dom does it for his/her own pleasure.
That this act also involves the sub's pleasure is entirely secondary and is there only to either make the sub look bad, like "look how pathetic you are, to cum like that with what I just did to you" or to make the dom feel powerful, "I did that to you only using my foot, you loser, imagine what the rest of me might be like."


Necessarily, no. But, when it isn't the scene and tone make it very bloody obvious.
The only real dom reason to do it is to go down the mind-break/corruption route of someone in sexual denial.
Assuming no relationship/emotional connection, there are far better ways to either make the dom feel powerful or the sub feel controlled. Especially oral on a woman, you can't even really threaten with teeth like you could on a man.
Apart from the dom actually enjoying eating pussy of course - again, that the sub might enjoy it is entirely secondary.
Or perhaps that cunni is an especial weakness/kink of Alexia's.

I think what you're getting mixed up with is the word pleasure.
In my original explanation I used the word pleasure to mean "getting what you want in a sexual encounter" and not physical sexual enjoyment.
How a dom views pleasure of his/her sub. Pleasure in the sub can be enjoyable to the dom because the sub is controlled by it, not because they're enjoying it and having a good time (that'd be for someone in a relationship).
Have you ever read Wheel of Time? I will assume you have and will recall to you one of the Forsaken, I think Semirhage, whose most effective method of torture was pleasure. It can be used to control a person, just like pain, and is much more difficult to resist (it's just realistically much harder to find and deliver pleasure than it is pain but, cheaty magic OPOP).
So, sexual enjoyment/pleasure inflicted on a sub by a dom is done to control them, not to make them happy.

Okay, so say you're in a relationship with a sub. She loves you and you love her. She likes it that you're dominant in charge. You tell her that you want to do so a scene with her that night and that she is expected to cuff herself to the bed and gag herself. You come home, and reveal you went out and bought that sex toy she was excited about and then use it on her. She cums many times while bound and her body is being toyed with. Then, you let her out of the restraints and tell her you love her.

Are you the dom or the sub in this encounter?

 

[T51bwinterized]

Wait are you implying you can't also be in a romantic relationship with a sub too? BRO. That's pretty sus right there.

 

[kurupt87]

You do realise that basically everything you've said is because you've chosen for Rowan to be sexually submissive, right?

That list was demonstrating the imbalance in content availability between dom and sub Rowan, not that I got the scenes.

As I said later in the post you quoted, I have two playthroughs.
One where he is dom and is played as a power fantasy avatar for me, the player, and unfortunately gets very little content. Those five characters worth from my list.
Perhaps I could add some characters from the other list if I don't read the text but that pretty much defeats the purpose of the medium, and it's too bloody late now that I already have anyway.

And one where he is sub and is played as a victim of a perverse god that has some control of him, me the player, and can barely turn around before a new cunt that I, the player, force him to much on with attendant Queen to worship appears, with the odd cock to salivate over too - which is sometimes attached to the aforementioned Queen's. I don't really enjoy this playthrough, far far too much femdom.
I'd much rather I force him to bend over for some manly NPC dude who can be an impromptu stand in for me, the player, than some chick. Femdom over a guy leaves nobody in the scene for me to empathise with.

My problem isn't that the submissive content exists for those that want to play Rowan that way.
My problem is that the submissive content so heavily outweighs the dom content.

 

[errte13]

As far I am concerned, the dominant is the one who is leading, all other points, being self serving or loving etc, are irrelevant to the definition being dominant.

 

[Snugglepuff]

and unfortunately gets very little content.

That's been covered in this thread before, and even very recently.

 

[T51bwinterized]

That list was demonstrating the imbalance in content availability between dom and sub Rowan, not that I got the scenes.

As I said later in the post you quoted, I have two playthroughs.
One where he is dom and is played as a power fantasy avatar for me, the player, and unfortunately gets very little content. Those five characters worth from my list.
Perhaps I could add some characters from the other list if I don't read the text but that pretty much defeats the purpose of the medium, and it's too bloody late now that I already have anyway.

And one where he is sub and is played as a victim of a perverse god that has some control of him, me the player, and can barely turn around before a new cunt that I, the player, force him to much on with attendant Queen to worship appears, with the odd cock to salivate over too - which is sometimes attached to the aforementioned Queen's. I don't really enjoy this playthrough, far far too much femdom.
I'd much rather I force him to bend over for some manly NPC dude who can be an impromptu stand in for me, the player, than some chick. Femdom over a guy leaves nobody in the scene for me to empathise with.

My problem isn't that the submissive content exists for those that want to play Rowan that way.
My problem is that the submissive content so heavily outweighs the dom content.

Okay, but how do relationships work? Are Daddy Doms not dominant because they derive enjoyment from caring for their subs?

 

[kurupt87]

Okay, so say you're in a relationship with a sub. She loves you and you love her. She likes it that you're dominant in charge. You tell her that you want to do so a scene with her that night and that she is expected to cuff herself to the bed and gag herself. You come home, and reveal you went out and bought that sex toy she was excited about and then use it on her. She cums many times while bound and her body is being toyed with. Then, you let her out of the restraints and tell her you love her.

Are you the dom or the sub in this encounter?

Without more context it's hard to say - why am I doing this? Is it her birthday, has she been a good pet, am I just a loving husband? etc

But, I'm inclined to say that I'd be the dom because I'm the one who has decided what is happening, I want to grant her sexual pleasure.
But, on a dom scale of 1 to 10 it'd be a 1 - not really any different dom-level-wise from a normal sexual encounter between two people that don't know what they want. The only thing spicing it up is the paraphernalia.
Not bothered because it is too tame to be interesting sex wise, all the scene's power and passion would come from the emotional connection, not the action.

So, I'm in charge which makes me the top but, all I'm getting out of it is giving pleasure to the one I love. Not hugely satisfying, on the lustful level that the dom/sub dynamic exists on.
This example is a mashup of making love and bondage dom/sub, it is perfect for those two involved (because it is their emotions in play) but for everybody else as voyeuristic observers it is worse than pure love making or pure BDSM (the lovey side makes the BDSM tame, the BDSM makes the love making too freaky).

The love and emotional bond between them enable the sub and dom to do things for each other that they would not for another.

Wait are you implying you can't also be in a romantic relationship with a sub too? BRO. That's pretty sus right there.

No, that is not what I am saying.

 

[kurupt87]

Okay, but how do relationships work? Are Daddy Doms not dominant because they derive enjoyment from caring for their subs?

They are less dominant, they are not not dominant though - it's a scale. This is obvious dude.

Compare Qail (I think? the adventurer party dude that Rowan can bend over for) to Andras.
Andras is obviously more dominant than Qail but Qail himself is obviously dominant.

 

[T51bwinterized]

They are less dominant, they are not not dominant though - it's a scale. This is obvious dude.

Compare Qail (I think? the adventurer party dude that Rowan can bend over for) to Andras.
Andras is obviously more dominant than Qail but Qail himself is obviously dominant.

Is he? He's more "Domineering", but he'd actually be a pretty horrible dominant in most respects. His basic problem is that he has no self-regulation. Is a dominant with a more aggresive persona but weak self regulation more dominant?

And if going out of your way to pleasure the sub when you're the one in the dominant position is still an act of dominance (just less so according to you), how is it different if Rowan has Shaya bound up and he chooses to impose pelasure on her. Wouldn't that still be a dominant act according to your definition?

Regarding if Daddy Doms are less dominant let's do another hypothetical.

We have two doms and two subs.

Dom A is a Daddy Dom who excersizes power with sweetness and care and is always concerned about her pleasure. But, he has a lot of power. He controls her orgasms at all times, has rules for her day to day life, decides her appearance, has rules about how she talks, etc etc.

Dom B is like a domineering dude who likes to force his sub to have sex in the positions he likes so he gets more pleasure. but, otherwise is unconcerned with exercising power on his sub.

Degree of Power and Control vs Motive/Emotional Reaction to it. What makes for the greater degree of dominance?

 

[pppjjj]

Dom A is a Daddy Dom who excersizes power with sweetness and care and is always concerned about her pleasure. But, he has a lot of power. He controls her orgasms at all times, has rules for her day to day life, decides her appearance, has rules about how she talks, etc etc.

I'd say that' s abuse though, as there is such a thing as excess of dominance.
It s fine in a game, but not irl.

 

[T51bwinterized]

I'd say that' s abuse though, as there is such a thing as excess of dominance.

Depends on the sub. I've had subs in the past who'd balk at that, but also others who really get into that kind of excessive amount of control. As a general rule though, such a thing is more common in a married D/s dynamic where it can be more effortlessly extended to home life.

Also more common in short bursts. A sub who finds that enjoyable for a short time frame might not find it enjoyable for a longer time frame.

Still, the basic RACK principle applies. If she A. understands the challenges associated B. knowingly consents to them C. He executes the role without deviation and with basic concern for her mental safety, it's not an abuse of power.

 

[pppjjj]

The real question is: why bother if you don't like the content?
There are many other games you can play that might appeal you better.
If your problem is not having enough Mdom just go look for Mdom content, as easy as that.
You don't want to because you like the characters? Write a goddamn fanfiction about Rowan fucking everyone in the ass. problem solved.

 

[Ano85]

Alright, I think it's pointless to argue linguistics here. You have your own meaning/picture of what dom and sub is and I guess I understand it.

I was trying to describe Greyhide's personality. I think it's entirely possible that he is just like that. The way he described his past shows he likes tenderness a lot. The conflict with his being and culture is his baggage, not his sexuality. He seems to be comfortable with it for the most part, considering how quickly he accepts that he is into men as well.

I do concede that Rowan defaults to submissive there even tho he wouldn't have to.

 

[pppjjj]

Depends on the sub. I've had subs in the past who'd balk at that, but also others who really get into that kind of excessive amount of control. As a general rule though, such a thing is more common in a married D/s dynamic where it can be more effortlessly extended to home life.

Also more common in short bursts. A sub who finds that enjoyable for a short time frame might not find it enjoyable for a longer time frame.

Still, the basic RACK principle applies. If she A. understands the challenges associated B. knowingly consents to them C. He executes the role without deviation and with basic concern for her mental safety, it's not an abuse of power.

Yeah obviously, everyone gets off from different things.
I kind of forgot some people consent to that, I guess I would never so I kind of skipped over that. I am stupid like that ahahah

 

[T51bwinterized]

Alright, I think it's pointless to argue linguistics here. You have your own meaning/picture of what dom and sub is and I guess I understand it.

I was trying to describe Greyhide's personality. I think it's entirely possible that he is just like that. The way he described his past shows he likes tenderness a lot. The conflict with his being and culture is his baggage, not his sexuality. He seems to be comfortable with it for the most part, considering how quickly he accepts that he is into men as well.

I do concede that Rowan defaults to submissive there even tho he wouldn't have to.

Counterpoint A: When spending time with complain-y pirates, torturing them with semantics is the best way to do it.
Counterpoint B: I think he's actually not saying the thing he thinks he's saying though. What he wants is more sexual content around Rowan being a Bastard. Of which there is some, but even most of the content where he's dominant he isn't.

That's deliberate. It's act 1. Makes more sense for Rowan to move from dominant but kind towards a bastard over time, even if a player is running a more top-y Rowan.

No comment on the Greyhide stuff. I don't write that, and don't even really read the sexual content.

 

[Semantics]

Counterpoint A: When spending time with complain-y pirates, torturing them with semantics is the best way to do it.

...Oh my, this just got weird for me.

That's deliberate. It's act 1. Makes more sense for Rowan to move from dominant but kind towards a bastard over time, even if a player is running a more top-y Rowan.

Question for if it's a known (And shareable) plan yet: Will this move toward being a bastard be something done through choices (In any form, be it overall, per character, or whatever) or by corruption score? I assume the latter, since I think there was mention in-thread of corruption being linked to Rowan going dom previous posts and corrupt Rowan is more bastard at various points, but curious.

 

[kurupt87]

Is he? He's more "Domineering", but he'd actually be a pretty horrible dominant in most respects. His basic problem is that he has no self-regulation. Is a dominant with a more aggresive persona but weak self regulation more dominant?

Yes, aggression is the core emotion of dominance. How he regulates it is entirely irrelevant to how dominant he is - it will only impact how effective he is at obtaining it (and it won't impact him much negatively at all, he is seemingly physically all-powerful (30 might check what), has no laws like rape to worry about and is seemingly completely without compassion for the feelings of others (which makes sense, it is the core emotion of submission)).

And if going out of your way to pleasure the sub when you're the one in the dominant position is still an act of dominance (just less so according to you), how is it different if Rowan has Shaya bound up and he chooses to impose pelasure on her. Wouldn't that still be a dominant act according to your definition?

Because of who Shaya is. She is a prostitute, she has had hundreds if not thousands of cocks up her quim. Swimming pools worth of spunk. Putting your mouth/tongue on that is utterly repulsive, imagine a sponge soaked in cum, an immensely submissive thing to do - akin to coprophilic ass eating. And, all for money.
Once a prostitute, always a prostitute - no one can come back from that. She is inherently worthless, damaged goods, disgusting. A beautiful looking toy to use, fuck and discard.

Not to mention the fact that Rowan has ZERO reason to give any fucks about her feelings at all. She is a complete stranger to him and a prostitute - she is simply a living onahole.

You cannot equate your previous example of hypothetical me with my hypothetical girlfriend/wife with your new example of Rowan and this stranger prostitute. There is ZERO overlap here, other than both examples involve two humans, one male and one female.

The only reason to care about the feelings of this prostitute stranger is if Rowan is driven by compassion, the submissives driving emotion.

I'd make the same mileage argument about Jez too but she seems to be almost a pure lesbomancer, so she kinda gets away with it. Not too sure on that though, I've seen almost 0 of her content having no interest in femdom.

Regarding if Daddy Doms are less dominant let's do another hypothetical.

We have two doms and two subs.

Dom A is a Daddy Dom who excersizes power with sweetness and care and is always concerned about her pleasure. But, he has a lot of power. He controls her orgasms at all times, has rules for her day to day life, decides her appearance, has rules about how she talks, etc etc.

Dom B is like a domineering dude who likes to force his sub to have sex in the positions he likes so he gets more pleasure. but, otherwise is unconcerned with exercising power on his sub.

Degree of Power and Control vs Motive/Emotional Reaction to it. What makes for the greater degree of dominance?

Does it matter? I'd say B but practically there's not really much in it.
A is more of just a controlling personality, much of what you outline isn't sexual. His preference for dom is a function/offshoot of his overall desire to control everything. Or perhaps, his need to sexually dominate but not break the law expresses itself differently.
Whereas B is purely sexual, and seeing as we're talking about dom/sub in the sexual realm, he is therefore more dom.
Including everything sexual and non-sexual, A is more dominant.

Obviously in all of these examples willing consent is assumed.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Yes, aggression is the core emotion of dominance. How he regulates it is entirely irrelevant to how dominant he is - it will only impact how effective he is at obtaining it (and it won't impact him much negatively at all, he is seemingly physically all-powerful (30 might check what), has no laws like rape to worry about and is seemingly completely without compassion for the feelings of others (which makes sense, it is the core emotion of submission)).


Because of who Shaya is. She is a prostitute, she has had hundreds if not thousands of cocks up her quim. Swimming pools worth of spunk. Putting your mouth/tongue on that is utterly repulsive, imagine a sponge soaked in cum, an immensely submissive thing to do - akin to coprophilic ass eating. And, all for money.
Once a prostitute, always a prostitute - no one can come back from that. She is inherently worthless, damaged goods, disgusting. A beautiful looking toy to use, fuck and discard.

Not to mention the fact that Rowan has ZERO reason to give any fucks about her feelings at all. She is a complete stranger to him and a prostitute - she is simply a living onahole.

You cannot equate your previous example of hypothetical me with my hypothetical girlfriend/wife with your new example of Rowan and this stranger prostitute. There is ZERO overlap here, other than both examples involve two humans, one male and one female.

The only reason to care about the feelings of this prostitute stranger is if Rowan is driven by compassion, the submissives driving emotion.

I'd make the same mileage argument about Jez too but she seems to be almost a pure lesbomancer, so she kinda gets away with it. Not too sure on that though, I've seen almost 0 of her content having no interest in femdom.


Does it matter? I'd say B but practically there's not really much in it.
A is more of just a controlling personality, much of what you outline isn't sexual. His preference for dom is a function/offshoot of his overall desire to control everything. Or perhaps, his need to sexually dominate but not break the law expresses itself differently.
Whereas B is purely sexual, and seeing as we're talking about dom/sub in the sexual realm, he is therefore more dom.
Including everything sexual and non-sexual, A is more dominant.

Obviously in all of these examples willing consent is assumed.

Wonderful. You're the best one since dick potion guy. Respond to this in full later.

 

[pppjjj]

As far as "mileage" goes, shouldn't Rowan be the most disgusting person in the game?
He fucks everything with a hole.
If diseases were in the game, Rowan would be a walking STD.
Nasty.
But let me get at you on semantics for a sec. No one is inherently (=intrinsically) worthless as being a (here fictional) human makes you automatically have human worth. What you describe as worthless not intrinsic, but an external point of view, as it is what you think of her. Therefore it is a given attribute and not an intrinsic one.