- Oct 17, 2017
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My planned resolution of the Act 1 Liurial arc should be entirely predictable exclusively using the details from the 4 main events already in place.
Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.11a Patreon] [Vénus Noire]
Honestly, I doubt either is outright a spy. (Though I haven't played the latest release yet, so any new events might contain further crumbs I'm not operating with.) X'zaratl's whole schtick being an act would make her "I'm a Rowlexia shipper!" redesign a lot weirder and less interesting. They could maybe write it so these two things aren't mutually exclusive, but her acting as NTR route detox makes that pretty hard to do. (This is never mind the fact that it would have to completely invalidate her functioning AS a detox mechanic, I assume? Since I don't go those routes, my only experience with that is from skipping through the sex scene via the replay mod.)
As diebesgrab notes, Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan (He has some earlier scenes that brush up against that, but nothing nearly as overt as Liurial). "Character tries to spy on dominant character by pretending to be submissive to them, gets caught and dominated harder" can definitely work (Filiane is my favorite Bunny Black 2 character for a reason), but putting her in that Intro To BDSM role and re-writing her scenes to contain actual aftercare makes it a lot harder to do that in a satisfying way.
However, this all ignores that there's a third option. Either or both could be part of Jezera's plans without being her agent. It's entirely possible Jezera passed on Liurial knowing she'd probably seek Rowan as her next choice instead of going to Andras, at which point Jezera can try to use Liurial (knowing or not) as an in. Or as just another hostage to threaten should Rowan think about betraying the twins. Meanwhile if Jezera wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia (Spoiler: Yes), X'zaratl's obsession with their relationship and desire to "broaden" it is a useful secondary angle of attack. Even if the couple resists Jezera's "I want you to be my toys" line of corruption, X'zaratl's earnest fangirling corruption could soften them up for her.
There's a lot of grey between "spy" and "not part of Jezera's plans to screw with Rowan/Alexia."
As diebesgrab notes, Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan (He has some earlier scenes that brush up against that, but nothing nearly as overt as Liurial). "Character tries to spy on dominant character by pretending to be submissive to them, gets caught and dominated harder" can definitely work (Filiane is my favorite Bunny Black 2 character for a reason), but putting her in that Intro To BDSM role and re-writing her scenes to contain actual aftercare makes it a lot harder to do that in a satisfying way.
However, this all ignores that there's a third option. Either or both could be part of Jezera's plans without being her agent. It's entirely possible Jezera passed on Liurial knowing she'd probably seek Rowan as her next choice instead of going to Andras, at which point Jezera can try to use Liurial (knowing or not) as an in. Or as just another hostage to threaten should Rowan think about betraying the twins. Meanwhile if Jezera wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia (Spoiler: Yes), X'zaratl's obsession with their relationship and desire to "broaden" it is a useful secondary angle of attack. Even if the couple resists Jezera's "I want you to be my toys" line of corruption, X'zaratl's earnest fangirling corruption could soften them up for her.
There's a lot of grey between "spy" and "not part of Jezera's plans to screw with Rowan/Alexia."
monk_56
Active Member
- Apr 26, 2021
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Damn you winter. Now you've got me like.....
And very nervous for a bad end I won't like
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monk_56
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The only current way to get the detox event is by going all in on and proccing the rest of the X'zaratl events. You need a lot of X'zaratl influence points to get the event to go off. It doesn't curretly have any relation to NTR- its just a long term plan for the event to have multiple triggers- and NTR pathing will be one of them. I do hope they loosen the proverbial "reins" on getting the Guilt_Solutions X'zaratl event to proc though- it is so hard to encounter unless you play with high levels of degeneracy. I can think of lots of reasons Rowan could be feeling guilty that Alexia could be whipping him for- without getting to 30 guilt or w/e.
I don't think anyone considering X as having alterior motives believes she is a spy for the twins or anything- rather that she may have her own personal motive that goes beyond the scope of what is obvious to the players and we might get hit by like a long con at the end of her arc. Like the rhyming couplet at the end of an English sonnet- it may reverse the whole narrative in some interesting way.
Ah, I conflated the two character conversations. Honestly, given how much time I spend reloading the page as opposed to actually being able to read it, I'm surprised I wasn't even further muddling things.
Edit: That said, a previous point in the X'zaratl discussion was her being or not being "on Rowan's side." I think my thought process still holds there. I think even if she has further, hidden considerations or reasons (Probable, that's what character arcs are about), having her not at least THINK she's on Rowan/Alexia's side weakens the interesting direction her re-write went.
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monk_56
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Right- I agree. I think she is on their side 100%. But there are underlying motivations we don't understand and they may conflict with Rowans goals or create some other layer of drama- even if she wants to be good to them. If that makes any sense?
Also: Quote: " Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan " Semantics; you sir are hilarious and accurate ;-p
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Mmushy
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- May 5, 2020
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I agree with the theory Futacubus is doing the long con. I think she wants a demon child with Rowan
Jynx_lucky_j
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- May 1, 2021
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I might not have explained myself very well so just for some clarification:
I don't think Liurial is in anyways a spy in the same way Shaya is a spy, she isn't a trained agent or anything. My thought was that she was she pretty much exactly as she appears to be. However I thought that Jezera had in fact got to her first and became her mistress. Jezera then tells Liurial to visit Rowan and tell him her story, and then she is to serve him and simply report back to Jezera if she sees anything unusual while serving Rowan. In this theory, Liurial is 95% genuine. But of course I believe it even less now that T51bwinterized has made his post, but that was my thought process.
As for X'zaratl I think she is largely working independent of the twins but its fine because her goals are friendly to the twins' goals. She clearly wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia but in her mind she is doing it for their own good. Their relationship would be sooo much better and strong if it was just like in her erotic fanfics. Of course how Rowan and Alexia feel about that depends largely own you own individual playthrough, but I think it is safe to say that the Rowan and Alexia from the prologue would not be down for whatever X'zaratl's end game is. What I'm trying to say is X'zaratl my think she is on their side, but that isn't something she can just decide herself if they disagree.
I don't think Liurial is in anyways a spy in the same way Shaya is a spy, she isn't a trained agent or anything. My thought was that she was she pretty much exactly as she appears to be. However I thought that Jezera had in fact got to her first and became her mistress. Jezera then tells Liurial to visit Rowan and tell him her story, and then she is to serve him and simply report back to Jezera if she sees anything unusual while serving Rowan. In this theory, Liurial is 95% genuine. But of course I believe it even less now that T51bwinterized has made his post, but that was my thought process.
As for X'zaratl I think she is largely working independent of the twins but its fine because her goals are friendly to the twins' goals. She clearly wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia but in her mind she is doing it for their own good. Their relationship would be sooo much better and strong if it was just like in her erotic fanfics. Of course how Rowan and Alexia feel about that depends largely own you own individual playthrough, but I think it is safe to say that the Rowan and Alexia from the prologue would not be down for whatever X'zaratl's end game is. What I'm trying to say is X'zaratl my think she is on their side, but that isn't something she can just decide herself if they disagree.
diebesgrab
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- Feb 25, 2019
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If X’zaratl doesn’t have ulterior motives I’m gonna be super disappointed in the writers, given the way they’ve portrayed demons in general and succubi in particular. I don’t think the fangirl schtick is necessarily an act—it’d be way too obvious of one, if it were—but I think she definitely wants things for herself that the reader isn’t yet privy to, and I’d also be surprised if it were just a kid—again, that would be too clumsily foreshadowed if that were the only thing she was after. Given what we’ve seen of her character both before and after the rewrite, I’d say she’s playing her own game in this war entirely separate from what Jezera, Andras, or Rowan are doing, but I couldn’t tell you what as yet.
As you said, "I imagine" that goes for both of us but in different direction because as you state "I saw no indication that his transformation was meant to be a long term change", there is still no indication of the contrary, X'zaratl is still the only "Sexual Demon" that have both sexes openly (the pair extra arms count if we are mainly focus of genitalia?) while the rest of them seems to be corrupted by the normies >:v by showing openly sexual preferences. Maybe X'zaratl is the example of what a conservative of their species is, by showing their original biology as they are while the rest of the youngs perverted in the habits and customs of the normies because this youngters see them exotic, based in what you wrote "In fact there is a new X’Zaratl scene in which she explains that for them the concept of being one gender or another is a foreign concept to them."; so X'zaratl could be a conservative of their people with a long age comes with a mind that resist changes while the youngsters are showing sexual preferences... There is a possibility that this Demon Dude just have take chocolate ice cream but never Vainilla flavor... And he was corrupted by Rowan ;v... Just remember, the fun of this game and mainly central theme is basically corruption, and developers never said that Rowan (the so called "Hero") can corrupt someone else for good or evil or stupid purposes (the last one i put it because i remember discussing last night in whatsapp about philosophy, and why stupidity was worse than evil
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Did you try yet the Game Over Guide - Early Game Guide?... Old but helps a lot... My recommendation is to ignore the desires of Andras of conquer by using brute force, it's more difficult at the beginning by the chances of random ways of succeed in collection of resources to waste them only in a pathetic military force by the stupids desires of the most dumb of the twins...
ReaperMan30
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- Sep 1, 2017
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As T51bwinterized preparing for Helayna plot line update .
I wanted to make my comprehensive take on what i think can be improved with Helayna content.
We don't have yet preview of what Winter think he gonna change with Helayna plot line and more importantly how extensive this changes gonna be.
But here is my take
In general
I dislike idea of her completely losing her mind the moment she done the ring and not having at least some self awareness.
Art and writing should try to convey more complex emotions than fuck doll happy getting off.
Art direction from Winter in my opinion should concentrate more on Helayna conflicting emotions.
Her fear, hesitation, shame, self loathing (she basically should be disappointed with herself as she failed to resist) and her hidden desires amplified by the ring influence. Have to show her inner struggle with ring that compels her to obey.
Her desperately trying to get control back over her body and mind. Illustrate her mental collapse basically how she get consumed by lust.
Sommy should try to visualize in her Facial expressions how ring influence breaks her.
I think it will help if during scenes perspectives switch from Rowan to Helayna and back (her Point of view).
Obviously its much harder pulling off but again that is the point of rework and improvement.
That will give some punch and drama to the events.
Its pivotal point in her story Ark i think it needed to get extra attention form Sommy and Winter.
Making the hole thing more emotionally charged.
And speaking about some scenes in particular:
1) Raeve keep
During her capture she break immediately and give no resistance. It feels anti climactic somehow.
Scene with orcs/ knights should be more about her disgust and shame fighting with her lust emanated from the ring.
This will be much better dynamics then rag doll submission.
Culminating with her finally being defeated by her lust completely by the end of the scene.
Orc should be more abusive. She just killed some of them during castle assault they want to take there revenge on her.
Signaling Rowan that he should step up. That would be more dramatic even tragic.
And not just "its hot in armor" and "please take me i'm yours"
2) Helayna escape
Disproportionate options.
While when Alexia help Helayna escape we get the hole loads of content:
Rowan punishing Alexia/She get thrown to Wulump and then Andras helps himself with her.
On Rowan road on the other hand we get nothing , obviously no one going to do it because there is nothing to see.
Maybe include at least one sex scene on Rowan road?
Rowan see her being humiliated by orcs in the Arena.
Orcs mock her and give her Practice wooden sword and some skimpy armor and urge her to try and fight them and if she wins they will "let her go".
Will be nice and dirty. Obviously she fails and get gang banged. This will illustrate her desperate situation and prompt good natured player to help her escape.
3) Helayna rape dinner.
The only thing we get from this scene is Helayna being humiliated.
Helayna in love with Rowan right? Andras and Jazera aware of that. This why they put this show.
Twins aim at Rowan here not at Helayna. If so lets play this card.
Helayna should be more emotional about being fucked in front of her idolized hero.
Usual game.
Her trying to hide her face in hands Andras not so gently removing those hands.
She communicate with Rowan asking him not to watch.
Basically more interaction with two people this scene is all about!
She threw her head back while cuming.
Andras grab her hair showing her face "let him see your face whore."
This kind of things. Make Andras more Cruel and aggressive as he IS. Every simp hate Andras for that so make him more Assholish here. He would not miss the opportunity to throw it at Rowan.
4) I hope there will be Helayna bad ending when she fail to escape.
If Rowan didnt provide her with potions or failed to retrieve her armor.
She get captured by some roaming gang of monster (trolls or ogres) in wasteland.
I wanted to make my comprehensive take on what i think can be improved with Helayna content.
We don't have yet preview of what Winter think he gonna change with Helayna plot line and more importantly how extensive this changes gonna be.
But here is my take
In general
I dislike idea of her completely losing her mind the moment she done the ring and not having at least some self awareness.
Art and writing should try to convey more complex emotions than fuck doll happy getting off.
Art direction from Winter in my opinion should concentrate more on Helayna conflicting emotions.
Her fear, hesitation, shame, self loathing (she basically should be disappointed with herself as she failed to resist) and her hidden desires amplified by the ring influence. Have to show her inner struggle with ring that compels her to obey.
Her desperately trying to get control back over her body and mind. Illustrate her mental collapse basically how she get consumed by lust.
Sommy should try to visualize in her Facial expressions how ring influence breaks her.
I think it will help if during scenes perspectives switch from Rowan to Helayna and back (her Point of view).
Obviously its much harder pulling off but again that is the point of rework and improvement.
That will give some punch and drama to the events.
Its pivotal point in her story Ark i think it needed to get extra attention form Sommy and Winter.
Making the hole thing more emotionally charged.
And speaking about some scenes in particular:
1) Raeve keep
During her capture she break immediately and give no resistance. It feels anti climactic somehow.
Scene with orcs/ knights should be more about her disgust and shame fighting with her lust emanated from the ring.
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Culminating with her finally being defeated by her lust completely by the end of the scene.
Orc should be more abusive. She just killed some of them during castle assault they want to take there revenge on her.
Signaling Rowan that he should step up. That would be more dramatic even tragic.
And not just "its hot in armor" and "please take me i'm yours"
2) Helayna escape
Disproportionate options.
While when Alexia help Helayna escape we get the hole loads of content:
Rowan punishing Alexia/She get thrown to Wulump and then Andras helps himself with her.
On Rowan road on the other hand we get nothing , obviously no one going to do it because there is nothing to see.
Maybe include at least one sex scene on Rowan road?
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Orcs mock her and give her Practice wooden sword and some skimpy armor and urge her to try and fight them and if she wins they will "let her go".
Will be nice and dirty. Obviously she fails and get gang banged. This will illustrate her desperate situation and prompt good natured player to help her escape.
3) Helayna rape dinner.
The only thing we get from this scene is Helayna being humiliated.
Helayna in love with Rowan right? Andras and Jazera aware of that. This why they put this show.
Twins aim at Rowan here not at Helayna. If so lets play this card.
Helayna should be more emotional about being fucked in front of her idolized hero.
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Her trying to hide her face in hands Andras not so gently removing those hands.
She communicate with Rowan asking him not to watch.
Basically more interaction with two people this scene is all about!
She threw her head back while cuming.
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4) I hope there will be Helayna bad ending when she fail to escape.
If Rowan didnt provide her with potions or failed to retrieve her armor.
She get captured by some roaming gang of monster (trolls or ogres) in wasteland.
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- Oct 17, 2017
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Absent any of your specific scene ideas, I think that the failure of what you're saying is that Helayna's narrative exists both for herself and in the context of a larger and more complete narrative. In a story that is about Helayna, her own struggles and conflict vs the ring must always be at the forefront. And that material is there...in the second half of her story. But Helayna losing her mind in the early stages of her capture exists as much as a narrative conundrum for other charachters as for herself. And to that end, the emphasis ought to be on the elements that highlight that struggle.
I also think such a thing actually risks cheapening the story, because it lacks conceptual vision. What does a person do when confronted with the concept of the self as a non-actor? How does one mentally confront their past actions when they truly had no agency? Do they even comprehend it as being an extension of the self? So over-emphasizing the extent of agency and "losing the struggle" runs a risk of turning a more novel concept into something more standard. It also provides something of a conceptual safety blanket. "She really did always have a choice, so there is no need to truly reckon with an absence of free-will".
Basically, what you describe would turn Helayna's story (insofar as she is a charachter with a story that isn't Rowan's) into something like a story about becoming corrupted (which we have plenty of). But, Helayna's story isn't a corruption story.
This is, I think, a major reason why lots and lots of suggestions people make for narrative here and elsewhere don't end up getting accepted. A story element or story beat may or may not be pleasurable in of itself. But, it exists for a narrative purpose, and all these narrative purposes intersect. So most of the time, when I or other people on the team are considering certain story beats the question we often ask is "to what end?"
monk_56
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- Apr 26, 2021
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I for one hope Hels story rework focuses on adding to her knight pathing.
Hel is my favorite character and the narrative of her just becoming some sort of cum-dump for the ring as a foil for the evilness of the twins and the orcs just makes me sad / is boring. Her "bad end" pathing is fleshed out enough- with tons of content and narrative.
Her knight pathing (non-escape) is relatively cursory with lots of room for growth into a romance with a healty dose of narrative tension arising out of her trying to understand if she has her feelings b/c of the ring or b/c of herself.
Hel is my favorite character and the narrative of her just becoming some sort of cum-dump for the ring as a foil for the evilness of the twins and the orcs just makes me sad / is boring. Her "bad end" pathing is fleshed out enough- with tons of content and narrative.
Her knight pathing (non-escape) is relatively cursory with lots of room for growth into a romance with a healty dose of narrative tension arising out of her trying to understand if she has her feelings b/c of the ring or b/c of herself.
- Oct 17, 2017
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Because I know there are people here who'd enjoy it, let me give you an example of how such a methodology worked in the Liurial example.
I started by asking myself a basic question. What is Liurial's story abiut and what is her narrative functions in other stories.
There were my pre-rework answers.
Liurial: Her narrative in of itself is about a sort of transaction. She has certain needs and is willing to take a leap of faith to fulfill said needs. Rowan is the one she desires to make the transaction with because he has the power to fulfill those needs. Her story is that leap of faith.
Rowan: To Rowan, Liurial represents the positive side of the duality of his role in Bloodmeen. He is simultaneously empowered and disempowered and the existence of subordinates in social positions and sexual partners who are submissive to him represents one form of perks.
Alexia: To Alexia, Liurial represents a confrontation with Rowan and Power. Unlike other sexual conquests for Rowan, Rowan has Liurial explicitly because she is in his power. Thus she forces Alexia to have a stance on the relationship of Rowan's power and their relationship visa vie Rowan (and Alexia) sleeping with Liurial.
The Twins: Surprisingly nonplussed with no reac
What we see here is that the intended purpose of Liurial is a statement about Rowan and Power. The more he engaged with Liurial the more he engaged with his own power.
So, the next step when designing the story is asking how to improve on those elements of the story.
Thus:
- Liurial's motives for entering the deal and the broader picture of what she wants and needs has become better defined and more complex. In the process, allowing more room for that transaction and her relationship to that transaction to evolve in interesting ways. That way her story is a more complete story even if just through her eyes.
- Rowan's relationship with Liurial has been defined to be more clearly an act of power, because it now required him to use his power to secure her. And subsequent sex scenes have greater emphasized possessiveness (even in the vanilla scenes), emphasizing the social power inherent in her aquisition. Thus making her narrative more clearly a parallel to Rowan's evolving social role.
- Her Maledom scenes have been reworked so it more clearly has an arc to it. If they're supposed to be the psychosexual component of Rowan being put in a position where he has a submissive woman at his be ck and call for the first time. Then:
1. Since players should be able to define Rowan's sexuality, players should actually have a choice to define if Rowan actually engages her sexually and how.
2. For people who want Mdom scenes should start with emphasizing Rowan being a novice to the role and have an echoing narrative if Rowan getting as comfortable with his sexual power as he is getting with the power aspects of his dual social role.
- You guys will see more with Alexia soon here, but I've been very focused on the question of "What is the relationship between Alexia and Rowan's growing position of influence?"
- With the twins, it felt off that they didn't have a reaction to Rowan's social position evolving. Are they happy with him indulging in the power aspects? Do part of them feel threatened? Is it both? Neither? Thus I felt that Jezera should be added as an antagonist to the arc so there is a relational aspect. As Rowan is both empowered and disempowered, in what ways is he able to sustain his power from the threat of disempowerment? How does this aspect evolve?
I started by asking myself a basic question. What is Liurial's story abiut and what is her narrative functions in other stories.
There were my pre-rework answers.
Liurial: Her narrative in of itself is about a sort of transaction. She has certain needs and is willing to take a leap of faith to fulfill said needs. Rowan is the one she desires to make the transaction with because he has the power to fulfill those needs. Her story is that leap of faith.
Rowan: To Rowan, Liurial represents the positive side of the duality of his role in Bloodmeen. He is simultaneously empowered and disempowered and the existence of subordinates in social positions and sexual partners who are submissive to him represents one form of perks.
Alexia: To Alexia, Liurial represents a confrontation with Rowan and Power. Unlike other sexual conquests for Rowan, Rowan has Liurial explicitly because she is in his power. Thus she forces Alexia to have a stance on the relationship of Rowan's power and their relationship visa vie Rowan (and Alexia) sleeping with Liurial.
The Twins: Surprisingly nonplussed with no reac
What we see here is that the intended purpose of Liurial is a statement about Rowan and Power. The more he engaged with Liurial the more he engaged with his own power.
So, the next step when designing the story is asking how to improve on those elements of the story.
Thus:
- Liurial's motives for entering the deal and the broader picture of what she wants and needs has become better defined and more complex. In the process, allowing more room for that transaction and her relationship to that transaction to evolve in interesting ways. That way her story is a more complete story even if just through her eyes.
- Rowan's relationship with Liurial has been defined to be more clearly an act of power, because it now required him to use his power to secure her. And subsequent sex scenes have greater emphasized possessiveness (even in the vanilla scenes), emphasizing the social power inherent in her aquisition. Thus making her narrative more clearly a parallel to Rowan's evolving social role.
- Her Maledom scenes have been reworked so it more clearly has an arc to it. If they're supposed to be the psychosexual component of Rowan being put in a position where he has a submissive woman at his be ck and call for the first time. Then:
1. Since players should be able to define Rowan's sexuality, players should actually have a choice to define if Rowan actually engages her sexually and how.
2. For people who want Mdom scenes should start with emphasizing Rowan being a novice to the role and have an echoing narrative if Rowan getting as comfortable with his sexual power as he is getting with the power aspects of his dual social role.
- You guys will see more with Alexia soon here, but I've been very focused on the question of "What is the relationship between Alexia and Rowan's growing position of influence?"
- With the twins, it felt off that they didn't have a reaction to Rowan's social position evolving. Are they happy with him indulging in the power aspects? Do part of them feel threatened? Is it both? Neither? Thus I felt that Jezera should be added as an antagonist to the arc so there is a relational aspect. As Rowan is both empowered and disempowered, in what ways is he able to sustain his power from the threat of disempowerment? How does this aspect evolve?
monk_56
Active Member
- Apr 26, 2021
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T51bwinterized
Some interesting layers to unpack there. Thanks for the thoughts; I would be very, very interested to see a simmilar breakdown of narrative functions for Hel. Thanks for giving us forum dwelling Liurial fans something to mull over.
1) I love that you always consider underlying motivations when character-creating; particularly in relation to their sexualities.
I feel like there is a lot of pressure on Seeds to just include random Character x Character scenes "b/c hot" as fan service- and it often makes 0 sense. I'm glad the dev team is somewhat resistant to that 'porn first story second' mentality.
2) Both of Liu's new scenes are godlike. Choosing a route with her is difficult to say the least.
3) I hadn't been considering the power dynamic aspect of the narrative in regards being simultaneously empowered vs disempowered within the meta-context of the story; and that is pretty cool.
Some interesting layers to unpack there. Thanks for the thoughts; I would be very, very interested to see a simmilar breakdown of narrative functions for Hel. Thanks for giving us forum dwelling Liurial fans something to mull over.
1) I love that you always consider underlying motivations when character-creating; particularly in relation to their sexualities.
I feel like there is a lot of pressure on Seeds to just include random Character x Character scenes "b/c hot" as fan service- and it often makes 0 sense. I'm glad the dev team is somewhat resistant to that 'porn first story second' mentality.
2) Both of Liu's new scenes are godlike. Choosing a route with her is difficult to say the least.
3) I hadn't been considering the power dynamic aspect of the narrative in regards being simultaneously empowered vs disempowered within the meta-context of the story; and that is pretty cool.
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Enabling console with the mod installed currently crashes the game with an error at start.
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Fixed it for myself via commenting out the label line, but I haven't seen those scenes in question yet or much of your mod's code so dunno if that's the actual solution I should have used. It runs now, at least. XD
There's a list of current console commands in the post linked in my sig. If anything doesn't work, just tell me.