Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.13a] [Vénus Noire]

[monk_56]

T51bwinterized

Damn. Another great read.

"being influenced by certain people who don't have Rowan's interest at heart" - * Glares nervously at rein's 3 castel NPCs*

 

[T51bwinterized]

Taking another second to rant, because nerd reasons. The problem of utility as power is really important to global political history. Best exemplified in "The Problem of Generals".

Basically, insofar as a head of state is concerned, an army general is inherently a source of utility and of power threat. Unless the head of state plans to command the army itself (Costly in terms of time and power/Runs risks if you are a bad general), it is optimal to find a talented person to command one or more of your armies. The larger or more modern the state, the more nessacery it becomes.

In this position, the general has the utility of having someone talented control the armies for you extending your ability to exercise or defend yourself or your interests (either personal or national depending on how self intirested you are). Several factors will make this utility rise. The more talented they are comparable to other potential generals, the more their utility rises. It means they are better at using force. A second factor is how much you need your armies. If you are a small state defended diplomatically, armies are less important and a general has less utility. If you are a large state you have some need for generals categorically. And if you are in a state of war, the utility of a general rises relative to the state of the war.

But, generals are also dangerous and often in ways directly proportional to their utility. Generals command the power to threaten the head of state in the form of force. And a particularly popular or prestigious general will often have widespread public support, giving them leeway to utilize power against the state without backlash from the populace or selectorate and with miltiary backing. The prestige of particularly vital or victorious generals and the trust of soldiers in them over the state will rise particularly in wartime. Furthermore, the same skill and intelligence in warfare that make a general skilled often can be translated into threat to you in the field or (less directly) into political cunning.

So, the constant question every head of state with notable generals has at all times is at what point does the danger of keeping a general in place outweigh the utility they offer relative to a different general? There are other factors in place (the dangers in removing a general who is popular or politically powerful regardless of their threat to you), but the utility/danger question is the main one.

We've historically seen many many examples of this problem in action. It's less common in civilian governments or constitutional systems because state development is an inherent counterweight to the threat of coups. But, it's still endemic:

Spoiler: Extended diversion into Roman History

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Then we get to the modern era. Where in WW1, a little known fact is that the governments of all of the central powers had effectively been taken over by generals by around 1917. The Kaiser was made a puppet figure by Ludendorf and Hindenburg, who ran the state and could have overthrown him or turned him into a permenant puppet at will.

Spoiler: Extended discussion of Marshall Zhukov and Stalin

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Basically, long rant done. If you can't see any parallels in this schpiel to the way that both the Twins AND the State of Rosaria have treated Rowan, you aren't paying much attention.

 

[ReaperMan30]

Enabling console with the mod installed currently crashes the game with an error at start.

Spoiler: Error

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Fixed it for myself via commenting out the label line, but I haven't seen those scenes in question yet or much of your mod's code so dunno if that's the actual solution I should have used. It runs now, at least. XD



There's a list of current console commands in the post linked in my sig. If anything doesn't work, just tell me.

could you let me know the console command for alexia? It doesn't work for the current list

 

[Semantics]

could you let me know the console command for alexia? It doesn't work for the current list

All four of the Alexia codes in my list worked for me. What issue are you having with which command? Or is it a command you want me to find and add to the list?

 

[Carso150]

as i see this this general problem only happens in absolute goverments like monarquies, empires or modern dictatorships, like you have never heard of the US getting a military coup (you do have certain generals becoming presidents but they have to run through the civilian channels to reach that power)

 

[rivon]

Basically, long rant done. If you can't see any parallels in this schpiel to the way that both the Twins AND the State of Rosaria have treated Rowan, you aren't paying much attention.

Tbh Rosaria nobles did exactly the bad move. They could knight him and give small fief of land. Thereby making mute any complains that he didnt get any reward for his service. At the same time he would be ruling two or three villages on the border fighting with orc tribes being no threat to anyone.

The whole idea of Rosaria nobility don't elevate lower classes in to the ranks of knight doesn't stand the test of history or logic.
The way Rosaria portrayed its in constant war with orcs and other creatures meaning constant casualties.
Real medieval state constantly needed more man power to fill up the ranks of professional military man.
Which get constantly depleted. The main case of loses is war attrition.
If you look in to casualties during any military campaign you will notice that majority of man died not from direct combat but through mundane diseases and bad conditions.

And only real mobile effective force in medieval times is knight regiments.
I recommend this article:

You must be registered to see the links

Basically because war was so cruel, they have to Force rich peasants who had money to arm themselves and can afford horse in to position of knight and grant them low noble title.

People usually dont understand that being relatively safe peasant actually much better option then being rank and file "noble knight" Who gonna last till next battle or guaranteed till first defeat.

Again if you think its just european situation no here is the same social class in russia :

You must be registered to see the links

Successful military carer in medieval times was a guaranteed noble title... if you survive.
And its dubious honor for many, you can gain same social position of power being merchant, in the same time you eat well, you sleep in bad and not in a harm way everyday.

 

[AlexWildfire]

Tbh Rosaria nobles did exactly the bad move. They could knight him and give small fief of land. Thereby making mute any complains that he didnt get any reward for his service. At the same time he would be ruling two or three villages on the border fighting with orc tribes being no threat to anyone.

The whole idea of Rosaria nobility don't elevate lower classes in to the ranks of knight doesn't stand the test of history or logic.
The way Rosaria portrayed its in constant war with orcs and other creatures meaning constant casualties.
Real medieval state constantly needed more man power to feel up the ranks of professional military man.
Which get constantly depleted. The main case of loses is war attrition.
If you look in to casualties during any military campaign you will notice that majority of man died not from direct combat but through mundane diseases and bad conditions.

And only real mobile effective force in medieval times is knight regiments.
I recommend this article:

You must be registered to see the links

Basically because war was so cruel, they have to Force rich peasants who had money to arm themselves and can afford horse in to position of knight and grant them low noble title.

People usually dont understand that being relatively safe peasant actually much better option then being rank and file "noble knight" Who gonna last till next battle or guaranteed till first defeat.

Again if you think its just european situation no here is the same social class in russia :

You must be registered to see the links

Successful military carer in medieval times was a guaranteed noble title... if you survive.
And its dubious honor for many, you can gain same social position of power being merchant, in the same time you eat well, you sleep in bad and not in a harm way everyday.

I belive we are the point were suspension of disbelief is needed , the developers cant know every little thing about certain topics, and at this point whats done is done. One can make up a thousand different reasons for why Werden has a broom handle up his behind while in the topic of rowan but in the end the answer is a flowery "because game happens"

Why does the rogue of the Hero party apparently has no close by allies than could help him? Cause then game would not happen, why a single noble with a foot up his ass managed to block Rowan getting some kind of reward? , cause game would not happen, why do the twins zig zag on competence levels? Cause if the game would end very quickly if they where the hyper competent versions all of the time, or the beserker and the wanna be all the time.

The point, its a fantasy world with magical fay wolf people and dragon centaurid creatures made around the idea a supposed hero gets corrupted and screws everyone including itself until the writers decide it went far enough for him to go from "pick being a good guy and get a kick to the groin" to "pick your fights carefully and you will win against the twins", real life history and logic can not be aplied.

 

[FormerlyknownasOlheden]

What the heck? It says that Alexia is ready for work, but I can't find any way to actually send her to work anywhere? Am I missing a button somewhere or is there a prequisite I haven't fulfilled somehow?. Sorry folks, did try to search for it but Alexia and Job/seemed to generic to get any good matches.

 

[Enigmanic]

What the heck? It says that Alexia is ready for work, but I can't find any way to actually send her to work anywhere? Am I missing a button somewhere or is there a prequisite I haven't fulfilled somehow?. Sorry folks, did try to search for it but Alexia and Job/seemed to generic to get any good matches.

While on the castle map screen, look in the lower righthand corner. You should see the button to set Alexia's job for the week.

 

[FormerlyknownasOlheden]

While on the castle map screen, look in the lower righthand corner. You should see the button to set Alexia's job for the week.

Sigh. I wish I did. But there's no such thing there unfortunately. I guess a bug? Thanks for your help anyway.

And just because I said that it showed up. Huh. Thanks again.

 

[rivon]

I belive we are the point were suspension of disbelief is needed , the developers cant know every little thing about certain topics

Sure some suspensions of disbelieve should always be applied.
i only go there because Winter is so in depth with his storytelling.
He obviously want to make as engaging/believable story as possible.
And i happen to know a thing or two about medieval warfare I try to point out at some social/economical facts revolving around it so that he can maybe take them in to account in the future.

, why do the twins zig zag on competence levels?

This is actually much more concerning thing for me. I felt that as well sometimes they feel incompetent and another time they omni present force you can not much. that's not right.

 

[AlexWildfire]

This is actually much more concerning thing for me. I felt that as well sometimes they feel incompetent and another time they omni present force you can not much. that's not right.

I acepted it has a unfortunate but unavoidable situation with the game, the twins need to be powerful enough to explain why rowan can just off them and end the game, but also incompetent enough to actually need him and be off his hair most of the time, there is probably a balance there, but with the event based system there would always be a disconnect unless for example half of adras stuff just got locked after he started studying actual tactics and history.

But then we have the main story events has the main perpetrator of inconsistency, Adras starts off brutish and basically a beserker, ok then, after the taking of the keep there is, or was ,a comment about how he is learning and "how old adras would not have cared for history" , and come rastadel he is back in the "i dont do much else other than running straigh ahead". To that point, ok, fair enough, he is learning but still has the fire on his blood come actual battle. the sister i will not even write the name cause i will butcher it comes out the worst in my opinion, i rarely do alexia maid events so i dont see much of her, but she has even worst jumps, she goes from being a wanna be with more power than capability, playing with the small fish stuff and having a castle worth of people she can ribon into submission, to "i actualy knew you were going to do this and punish you for trying it". i cant complain about the werden route stuff to much, makes sense i guess, girl escapes, somehow apears in rastadel, maybe sister put a few more eyes on rowan, dont explain how she is perfectly fine and you dont get any bad has long has you dont pick werden, but game choices, if we nitpick every non complete submission choice would suck. I guess we can only wait for the game to progress , the problem might be the writers being limited with only doing the first arc so they can give us to much or advance the twins to much in any direction leading to them coming off has both omni present and incompetent.

 

[Rein]

Balanacing the twins power and competence is... Difficult. Primarily because if Rowan is rebelling against the twins, it shouldn't always be a 100% sure thing.

If it's not a sure thing, then there is a chance of him being discovered.

If he's discovered, it would make sense for the twin to punish him.

BUT the game's main loop assumes Rowan goes into the field to follow the twins' orders, and the twins trust he'll further his agenda.

So if Rowan were to constantly rebel against the twins, why the hell would they keep trusting him with anything?

This is most jarring if Rowan gets caught with Helping Helayna escape. At the moment he gets a slap on the wrists and it's back to business afterwards. (I actually had an idea for this, to add some proper consequence, and as I write this, I got another idea how to implement it even better. So good thing we started this conversation.)

As far as Delane goes, it's painfully obvious Rowan had something to do with her escape if anyone is paying attention, as Tarish directly mentions the noblewoman to Andras, and later joins the twins. The twins let it slide once - once.

As for Andras... He has many hats to wear, depending on what the plot needs him to do at the moment. It might result in inconsistency over different events.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

In regards to the twins keeping Rowan in check: It seems to me that it is mostly Jezera's job to keep an eye on Rowan and watch him for any shenanigans, and it is Andras's job to threaten horrible repercussions for betrayal. But the twins also fully expect Rowan to try to betray them. They know Rowan isn't REALLY on their side. And Jezera seems to enjoy the game of it, particularly when she sees her self as winning that battle of wits.

When Rowan is testing the Amulet and tries to talk one of the the maids over to his side Jezera catches him. But this is such a minor infraction she doesn't even see any need to levy any threats. Her response is more along the lines of "I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. Come on up your game Rowan."

If Rowan gets caught helping Helayna escape, it a bigger act of defiance and he successfully pulled it off. So this does warrant a bigger response. But Helayna isn't really important to the twins. She's more of a toy, and potentially an extra leash on Rowan. But losing her isn't a big deal. Perhaps the punishment should be more than a slap on the wrist to remind him who's in charge, but not too much more because this is still with in the realm of what they expect Rowan to do. Heck, some of Cla'Min's schemes could potentially rise to this level of undermining the twins when she puts her her own profits over benefits to Bloodmeen. I could see some other characters rising to around this level of insubordination as well. I imagine it is pretty par the course for an army of Chaos.

But if Rowan sides with Werden, now it is a big deal. Now he has successfully pulled off a betrayal that posses an actual threat to their plans. It's time to bring the hammer down. They need to dish out a punishment severe enough that will give Rowan pause should he ever consider doing something like this again. Honestly I'm surprised that didn't actually do something to Alexia in this case. After all that was the major threat they've been using to keep him in line this whole time. It would even have to be something too bad, just enough so show him they were serious. It would even work along side the Delane treatment, with them letting Rowan know that Alexia actually got off pretty easy....this time...

 

[monk_56]

Jynx_lucky_j

Conversely, you bring the hammer down too hard and you reach Rowan's Snapping point. Whether that is good or bad for the twins is pretty much a wild card and honestly will probably be based on which player choice pathing you are on based on the rest of the story and likely concluded during the Epilogue: Slave, Overlord, vs. Sabotage.

Do they:
1) Break him like they want to?
2) Lose his willingness to assist them? Or to live completely.
3) Cause him to move forward by starting to rebel in earnest more expeditiously.

It is beyond a reasonable doubt that he is a key asset for the Twins at this point. Every one of their major triumphs was steeped in his involvement regardless of whether he sabotaged it a little bit or not. They have a lot to lose by truly antagonizing Rowan and if they don't realize it at this point post Rasteld they are stupider than I thought.

It would be far more sensible for them to hedge their bets instead of going all in on a poke the Rowan with a punishment stick stratagem. They have done that before in relation to staying their hand with more minor betrayals. Will they do that again on the Werden path? No probably not; I reckon the Twins are thinking like you are and they've already pushed too hard with Dealne / the city-wide rape. Somethings gotta give- and unless you are strictly following the Slave paths in most of narrative arcs- I don't see it ending up in clear a win for the twins.

Rein talking about Hel content is making me less and less excited about my Sub. I don't really see why its so Jarring that he is helping Hel escape- she is a small fish- its not like its a major sabotage of one of their major plans. Its just Rowan with his typical hero act trying to save his student from incredible suffering. Sure she could go tell everyone what was down there- but so could the other 100 or 1000s of characters that are loosely involved with castle Bloodmean.

I was so excited for new Hel content- but if a lot of it is going to be punishment stuff I guess I hope Winter keeps working on Liurial content for a good long time or that Winter disagrees with Rein about what would be valuable in regards to telling Hels story.

 

[DoisacChopper]

my orcs dont seem to want to recruit past 30, i have space for 320 ? even if some are used like in mines and it starts recruiting again it stops at 30

 

[Rein]

I was so excited for new Hel content- but if a lot of it is going to be punishment stuff I guess I hope Winter keeps working on Liurial content for a good long time or that Winter disagrees with Rein about what would be valuable in regards to telling Hels story.

Be at ease, I am not involved in Hel's rework. And what I was refering to was sexual content should the player help Helayna escape, or should Alexia's involvement in it remain hidden.

I think people will like it.

my orcs dont seem to want to recruit past 30, i have space for 320 ? even if some are used like in mines and it starts recruiting again it stops at 30

Yeah it's probably broken as heck. We were tinkering with the orc code during the skill rework, but it wasn't ready on time, so it got pushed. That and no tech update means we're swimming in money in the current release.

It will not last, don't worry about it.

 

[errte13]

I'm expecting the twins to convert Rowan to the chaos side, enticing him that life at their side is better than life under what'shername, the goddess of the order. Maybe keep putting him in situation where he makes moral decisions between a bad choice and an even worse choice, and gradually warp his values. I'm sure Jezera would be up to the task, corrupting a hero seems right in her alley. But Rowan's value will not stay high as time goes on, IRC Andras tries to learn strategies from Rowan, eventually Andras will be proficient enough that Rowan won't be a key value in twins plan anymore.

 

[monk_56]

I'm expecting the twins to convert Rowan to the chaos side, enticing him that life at their side is better than life under what'shername, the goddess of the order. Maybe keep putting him in situation where he makes moral decisions between a bad choice and an even worse choice, and gradually warp his values. I'm sure Jezera would be up to the task, corrupting a hero seems right in her alley. But Rowan's value will not stay high as time goes on, IRC Andras tries to learn strategies from Rowan, eventually Andras will be proficient enough that Rowan won't be a key value in twins plan anymore.

The Goddesses' name is Solansia.

If that is their angle they are doing a really fucking bad job. They treat Rowan like garbage. Legitimately tempting things are denied, whilst the twins constantly shit on his life and try to take his wife from him. The one time I felt truly tempted in Seeds from the perspective of a hero is the Helenya Arc. Where there was a protective story beat in addition to the lust / love or friendship vibe conflicting with a morality decision.

I can only think of two events where Jezera is trying to use straight Honey instead of a mixture of Vinegar/ Honey or straight up Vinegar to keep Rowan on her side- the dinner she arranged for Rowan and Alexia if both have low corruption around week 30; and the dinner she had with Rowan after you take two Villages.

Maybe we will see more of that strategy in the NPC arcs the twins have with Rowan.

The idea of Andras ever being as good at strategy as Rowan is . Might as well rename Andras Gary Stu at that point. I do see your the point a little; all characters should grow- but viewing Rowans power growth / utility as static while Andras' as dynamic to the point of making Rowan obsolete to the twins seems hyperbolic. Wouldn't be very good story-telling at any rate.

 

[errte13]

The Goddesses' name is Solansia.

Thanks.

If that is their angle they are doing a really fucking bad job. They treat Rowan like garbage. Legitimately tempting things are denied, whilst the twins constantly shit on his life and try to take his wife from him. The one time I felt truly tempted in Seeds from the perspective of a hero is the Helenya Arc. Where there was a protective story beat in addition to the lust / love or friendship vibe conflicting with a morality decision.

I can only think of two events where Jezera is trying to use straight Honey instead of a mixture of Vinegar/ Honey or straight up Vinegar to keep Rowan on her side- the dinner she arranged for Rowan and Alexia if both have low corruption around week 30; and the dinner she had with Rowan after you take two Villages.

Maybe we will see more of that strategy in the NPC arcs the twins have with Rowan.

It's been a while since I've played the game, didn't Jezera also rewarded Rowan with her spymistress? But yes, from what I remember, the twins are pretty antagonizing to Rowan or at least try to enforce dominance on him. Maybe it's an additional reason to use Rowan, other than his tactician skills, the twins thought they are not really fit to build up their own army due to their personality (unwilling to be seen the inferior in power dynamic) and let Rowan handle the dirty work.

The idea of Andras ever being as good at strategy as Rowan is

Wasn't Andras described as brilliant even though he is thuggish? If he's talented, then he likely learn it pretty quickly.

Might as well rename Andras Gary Stu at that point

Obvious weakness I think the twins have is that they are beings of chaos, and they may self sabotage due to their nature. Like Jezera killing the elf leader when she was trying to get an alliance.

all characters should grow- but viewing Rowans power growth / utility as static while Andras' as dynamic to the point of making Rowan obsolete to the twins seems hyperbolic

Rowan is described as normal person, though competent and ready to get dirty to win, I don't see him growing strong fighting prowess wise or become super tactician able to predict 10 moves in advance. IMO, he'll find value by making his own allies, that are more into him than being loyal to the twins (Cla Min with goblins, the sorceress, the old orc if you convince Delane ...). Though I don't think the twins will let him do that.