Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.13a] [Vénus Noire]

[FoxOfEmbers]

[Chi-Pa-Pa]

The way I see it, the twins *will* ultimately lose. Maybe a truly loyal Rowan *can* prevent it, but I am not actually sure about that.

But not before they wreck havoc and cause entire Provinces to fall and maybe even severely damage the Kingdom.
The entire first Act will still work without Rowan, just not as optimal.
I think the issue with them is not the buildup, but the foundation. The Twins clash and I honestly think their will be a lot of infighting. Which leads to instability, which will lead to defeats, which will cause even more instability. Until all falls apart.

Rowans job, in my opinion, is not to lead them to victory. But to use his guile to kept everything together and prevent the instability.
But, since I think the Twins and Chaos itself is the root of instability, I think the Twins *will* fall, the question is only if Bloodmeer will fall with them.

Like I said earlier, in my view Chaos wants/is change and thus a true victory is impossible if you try to build it on Chaos. Eventually you have to transform into an orderly state - and thus Solansa smiles.

(Disclaimer: I am probably when it comes to usual fantasy depiction of Chaos vs Order, In favor of Order. That can, of course, color my view.)

 

[the-god-destroyer]

While Rowan is imprisoned for months, the twins filled the base on they own, with soldiers, spies, succubi, mages and merchants on their own, without Rowans help. They conquered a few territorities, which they can do through their numbers plus their gamechanger, without Rowans help.
What did Rowan do? He helped open the brigde so seize a fort that was infiltrated by spies anyways. He recruited an orc camp which was willing to join the twins anyways, it just had to settle leadership (and without Rowan, Bartri would've smashed Ulcros, got Delane and eagerly provided his troops for Andras). Regarding Goblin Town, Tue-Row was eager to join the twins, he would've outplayed Zii-Zii and already betrayed Che-Lin. Rowans presence merely meant a different leader could rise atop. Finally, in Rastedel, the soldiers were a bit weakend and badly situated, but the twins overtook the capital anyways.
In summary, Rowan merely sped the inevitable up. The twins aren't as experienced, but they know how to get allies and learn, regardless of Rowans presence.

The narrative of them being incompetent and Rowan doing everything misleads into the common power fantasy trope, but it doesn't apply here. Rowan is very limited in what he can do and the twins are very industrious. The fun part of the game is that the twins provide so many tools for Rowan to overcome obstacles in several ways. Not the other way around, that the twins would lose without amazing godlike Rowan doing things no one else could think of.

ok multiple things wrong here. the orcs and goblins were not eager to join the twins and didn't even know about them and if Batri did defeat Ulcros then his orc army would be dead plus Bartri does NOT know how to do strategy and is slow as hell and if tru row saw what they did to rowan his godman IDOL who he literally dedicated his entire LIFE to then he would instantly be against the twins and Batri only helped the twins AFTER rowan depending on the route got him the girl Ulcros wanted to marry no the twins didn't get all that by themselves while rowan was in the dungeon rowan did he got the finances for it he got the stuff for it and they didn't conquer a few territories either and no that fort DIDNT already have spies in it they were sent in BY ROWAN and without him opening the gate they would have had to break it down and take way more loses and even risk someone warning the capital which would've ruined the twins entire plan. and no the soldiers weren't badly situated heck it only got that way after the king killed himself and ROWAN was the only reason a entire rebellion didn't start before the twins arrived plus he stopped a criminal organization and capture a key weak point that let the twins capture the capital easily and even made sure one of the most powerful nobility who could push back the invasion wasn't alive something their spy friends couldn't even do which is the only reason the twins army could even approach the capital heck if the king didn't kill himself the guards wouldn't have been dealing with half the capital burning and half the city rebelling which he wouldn't have killed himself if rowan didn't help the coppers or corrupt the nobles and he was even holding back the rebels from capturing more of the capital.

 

[kratosz]

Rowan a cuck.

 

[Gicoo]

[...]

Some punctuation for this wall of text would help a long way.

Orc camp and Goblin town would be very eager to join the twins because they share a common goal. Orcs, Goblins and Demons hate humanity and want to overthrow it. The most likely to become leader without Rowan manipulating also happen to be very war-hungry.

Orcs didn't know about them? As soon as Andras scouts would find them and Andras would met them, they would learn about it. Also, they already mentioned knowing the Demons and merely didn't join immediatly because there was a civil dispute that had to be solved first. Why would Bartris orc army be daed if he defeated Ulcros in a fair duel thats natural for orc leadership?
The events that take place in the game would roughly take place as well if Rowan was absent, with a few minor variances and slowdowns. Regarding Rastedel, the humans were already planning to overthrow the current rulers and planned to do a coup, so Jezeras spy would have informed the twins and they would use a good opportunity. With Rowan it just happens to be a bettter opportunits.
Overall, Rowan is a boon for the twins, but not a necessity. I'd argue the teleportation magic is much more valuable than he could ever be, it entirely shreds the usual approach of war.

 

[the-god-destroyer]

Some punctuation for this wall of text would help a long way.

Orc camp and Goblin town would be very eager to join the twins because they share a common goal. Orcs, Goblins and Demons hate humanity and want to overthrow it. The most likely to become leader without Rowan manipulating also happen to be very war-hungry.

Orcs didn't know about them? As soon as Andras scouts would find them and Andras would met them, they would learn about it. Also, they already mentioned knowing the Demons and merely didn't join immediatly because there was a civil dispute that had to be solved first. Why would Bartris orc army be daed if he defeated Ulcros in a fair duel thats natural for orc leadership?
The events that take place in the game would roughly take place as well if Rowan was absent, with a few minor variances and slowdowns. Regarding Rastedel, the humans were already planning to overthrow the current rulers and planned to do a coup, so Jezeras spy would have informed the twins and they would use a good opportunity. With Rowan it just happens to be a bettter opportunits.
Overall, Rowan is a boon for the twins, but not a necessity. I'd argue the teleportation magic is much more valuable than he could ever be, it entirely shreds the usual approach of war.

ok so just LYING now about what i said cause you cant actualy do any research or read. and no the goblins are not fucking war hungry they just want some land and to live a peaceful life so thats another lie and no only the woman orc knew about the twins the others didnt and now your contradicting yourself plus you said theyd learn about it yet they know it in your mind so howd they learn something that supposedly know? and no the goblins WOULDNT be very eager to join the twins cause AGAIN you idiot tru row DEDICATED HIS ENTIRE LIFE AND BEING TO ROWAN heck he literaly said himself that he would already be dead if rowan didnt inspire him and wouldnt join the twins without rowan. and i NEVER said Batris would be dead because of the duel for the love of fuck learn to read. I SAID he would be dead because he knows no strategy and is slow so if he took over the army then without the capital being weakened the twins entire orc army would be DEAD because the general wouldnt be dead and the rebels would be put down by the general and again the woman orcs didnt wanna join cause there was a civil war in their clan and no its not common for orc leadership to do duels heck Ulcro didnt even wanna fight and just wanted to live in peace with a human woman so now your just generalizing all orcs into one group same with the goblins who only one group and that was zi zi wanted war tru row and the other goblin group didnt want war and just wanted land or their history to not be forgotten.

 

[Oriandu]

They already recruited many able people from all races and kept the castle running. If it wasn't Rowan, it would be someone else. He is useful, but not indispendable. They can muster the numbers and have telportation fields as a gamechanger. They couldn't do it as effectively without Rowan, but they could do it.

Nah. Without Rowan they wouldn't have amounted to anything. The reason being are the twins themselves and not their capabilities. Rowan is useful in four main ways.

1. First, he possesses an instinctual understanding of strategy. Andras may be better suited to lead an armada made of orcs and monsters on the field but without someone like Rowan to guide where and how they are deployed the twin's forces would be wasted in vain attempts to destroy local forts. Remember that the twins' first mission for Rowan was the destroy a singular, relatively weak fortress, which indicates that they are both completely incapable of the minutia necessary to run a military.
2. Second, Rowan is an adept warrior with a lot of experience under his belt and the natural charisma necessary to lead. Where he goes people follow and neither of the twins possess this ability. Andras is too much of an immature bully who is only able to maintain control over the orcs due to intimidation and power being something they respect, and Jezera is an untrustworthy, reactive, childish brat who relies too heavily on seduction and violence as a crutch when she doesn't get her way. If left up to Jezera or Andras the Bloodmeen forces would be a mess because no one would trust each other.
3. Third, Rowan has connections. He's one of a handful of people who can walk into a seedy pub and a castle and know exactly who to talk to in order to get things done. Rowan is known by reputation alone to the highest royal halls, to the lowest backstreet pub, to the grungiest orc camps, to the secretive goblin clans and he is respected.
4. Fourth, he possesses a very broad skill set due to how he became a hero in past wars. He was a commoner who ascended through the ranks and because of this he's good at a lot of the important aspects of waging war. He was chosen because, unlike anyone else, he is as close to a perfect general as you're likely to find.

Now that my tldr; paragraphs are out of the way... it leads to one relatively simple reason why the twins would never ascend past local threat without Rowan specifically: they're not capable of true leadership. A decent sized chunk of Rowan's time is spent keeping the twins from murdering, raping, and otherwise brutalizing potential allies. If the twins actually managed to bring together the handful of people it would require to copy Rowan's skillset they would be presented with two main problems. The first is that the twins would, inevitabtly, start screwing with them in ways that would undermine their work. The second is that the twins aren't capable of building an environment where there would be any reason to trust one another so the Rowan replacements would be in a state of constant paranoia. The outside third reason is that if they decided to go with someone else they'd have to kill Rowan because it would only be a matter of time before he got involved and out thought, out fought, and out strategized the twins.

 

[Gicoo]

[...]

How do you get land? Through war, specifically by allying with like-minded races. The twins are the rising power, just as Tue-Row is about to be crowned. You think he would stay out of it if the twins ask for an alliance?

Of course all the orcs have heard of the twins, hence they comment on it when Rowan approaches them.

The twins wouldn't suicide into Rastedel. They would have their troops in spies in order before they attack. Which they just did.

You hyperfocus on Rowan because he happens to be the point-of-view MC who is positioned narratively to be at the center of each conflict. But this doesn't conclude that without him, these conflicts wouldn't be solved. They would, just at a slower pace and with someone less ideal.

Oriandu: Total agreement that Rowan is useful and often competent. Doesn't mean the twins couldn't be sufficiently successfull, they have extremely powerful and vast tools, allies and are also able to learn and improve. So I don't get your second paragraph, the twins have builded infrastructure and a very well working base entirely without Rowan.

Obviously, with Rowan present, we can rush through the conquest a bit faster and have the narrative reason that he solves they problem, else we wouldn't have a game. The twins can't be perfect, else Rowan would be superfluous, but this musn't lead into the wrong conclusion that they couldn't succeed without him.

 

[Miriada]

I think the game is clear in various ways that the Twins wouldn't amount to more than local threats without Rowan. Him failing and dying early is among the better (ethically) endings with the best ending being refusing to serve.

Anarcho-communist Rowan is best Rowan

 

[the-god-destroyer]

How do you get land? Through war, specifically by allying with like-minded races. The twins are the rising power, just as Tue-Row is about to be crowned. You think he would stay out of it if the twins ask for an alliance?

Of course all the orcs have heard of the twins, hence they comment on it when Rowan approaches them.

The twins wouldn't suicide into Rastedel. They would have their troops in spies in order before they attack. Which they just did.

You hyperfocus on Rowan because he happens to be the point-of-view MC who is positioned narratively to be at the center of each conflict. But this doesn't conclude that without him, these conflicts wouldn't be solved. They would, just at a slower pace and with someone less ideal.

Oriandu: Total agreement that Rowan is useful and often competent. Doesn't mean the twins couldn't be sufficiently successfull, they have extremely powerful and vast tools, allies and are also able to learn and improve. So I don't get your second paragraph, the twins have builded infrastructure and a very well working base entirely without Rowan.

Obviously, with Rowan present, we can rush through the conquest a bit faster and have the narrative reason that he solves they problem, else we wouldn't have a game. The twins can't be perfect, else Rowan would be superfluous, but this musn't lead into the wrong conclusion that they couldn't succeed without him.

ok so your a foaming at the mouth idiot plus no you don't JUST get land through war maybe do more research before you say a blatant lie heck even the game itself disproves your bullcrap as tru row or zi zi gain land from a marriage and even irl you can get land without war there's even an entire fucking site where you can pay for land heck what the hell do you think your doing when you buy a house with a yard? that your fucking the yard and waging war with neighbors or something? war isn't the only way the get land in any universe where you can get a house. and yes he most likely would stay out of it plus they killed his fucking idol who he DEDICATED HIS ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE TO I've had to repeat this shit 3 times now cause you wanna lie over and over again and why would he agree when he has a civil war going on that is bigger and more complicated then the orcs one? like heck he would've died before the twins even capture the capital same with the orc tru row from assassination and the orcs from getting ambushed because AGAIN they don't know strategy and with the ones who do know strategy the veterans the orcs would and will die off plus some of the veterans were powerful enough to take the throne but didn't want to lead. and you really think Rastedel would fall that easy? dude the twins that even have half the army kharns or whatever his name was even with rowan helping them and the twins would've lost triple the amount of resources they did at the very first fortress plus without rowan they would have had to break down the gate and almost all of their army would be dead at that point which means they would have to build it up again and that is if they even survive training plus near that point Andras had a course set up that killed almost all the orcs they were training and only because of rowan intervening did it stop heck without rowan they would have even half the troops they did to attack the capital which would make them out numbered and out skilled because rowan wouldn't have secured the holes in the capitals defenses or killed the general and the king wouldn't of died so the capital would be in way better condition and have all their troops ready heck and we aren't even considering how many monasteries rowan capture or mines or villages which under the twins without rowan would've been destroyed and conquered and the capital would know about the demons and send troops to kill them heck the only reason they failed in the game is because rowan was their directing where to place troops how to attack when to attack heck even the twins and their subordinates admitted that without rowan they would've most likely died or been pushed back so far they had to rebuild from the ground up.

 

[Chris20]

My god, what is this? an international geopolitical debate? The post-nut clarity hits hard i see

 

[the-god-destroyer]

My god, what is this? an international geopolitical debate? The post-nut clarity hits hard i see

its nowhere near about that its about the game.

 

[Oriandu]

My god, what is this? an international geopolitical debate? The post-nut clarity hits hard i see

I mean, the game does engage in international politics in between moments of watching big dumb red guy waving his dick at things.

 

[Love120]

In the end, everything comes to a simple conclusion: the twins need Rowan as much as he needs them. Whoever needs the other more is the player's personal opinion. This is simply a very toxic relationship. Don't try to find logic in it... and this is a porn game, too. XD (One with a really good narrative.)

 

[the-god-destroyer]

ima go to sleep see yall

 

[Oriandu]

In the end, everything comes to a simple conclusion: the twins need Rowan as much as he needs them. Whoever needs the other more is the player's personal opinion. This is simply a very toxic relationship. Don't try to find logic in it... and this is a porn game, too. XD (One with a really good narrative.)

It really doesn't come down to that simple conclusion at all. Without the twins Rowan would be living a quiet, happy life with Alexia in their village. Maybe she would sometimes perform dances, maybe they would have kids. Dunno, but they were doing very well before red and purple wandered into town.

 

[Love120]

Not to criticize or anything, but what you're alleging would ignore Rowan's feelings that he hints at at the beginning of the game. Rowan wasn't happy with his life. I'm not going to deny that without the twins he could have some peace of mind, but that feeling would still be there, denying him true happiness. After all, Rowan wasn't happy at all with how he was displaced after the death of the demon king. In the end, without the twins, would he have had a quiet, normal life? Yeah, but a happy life? I highly doubt it. That feeling that he should have achieved more would always be there, weak but constant.

 

[bratkoratko]

Since you're all talking about endings, I'm curious how it will be handled in terms of the plot if Rowan ends up being brainwashed—whether by Clionha, Shaya, or maybe even both, lol. Will his relationship with them have any impact on the larger story, or will it just get brushed off as side content

 

[Chris20]

It really doesn't come down to that simple conclusion at all. Without the twins Rowan would be living a quiet, happy life with Alexia in their village. Maybe she would sometimes perform dances, maybe they would have kids. Dunno, but they were doing very well before red and purple wandered into town.

Maybe, but it was a bitter sweet ending since we can see in the game that Rowan wanted to become a knight but was denied the opportunity since the current system was *absolutely* opposed to this, the current status quo dont allow the people to strive and have better opportunities, it is an artificial ¨stability¨; sure, he was happy living with his wife, but deep down he felt rejected.

 

[Oriandu]

Not to criticize or anything, but what you're alleging would ignore Rowan's feelings that he hints at at the beginning of the game. Rowan wasn't happy with his life. I'm not going to deny that without the twins he could have some peace of mind, but that feeling would still be there, denying him true happiness. After all, Rowan wasn't happy at all with how he was displaced after the death of the demon king. In the end, without the twins, would he have had a quiet, normal life? Yeah, but a happy life? I highly doubt it. That feeling that he should have achieved more would always be there, weak but constant.

Having misgivings about life is normal and it wouldn't have stopped him from living a happy life with Alexia. Rowan would not be a monolith, he would change as his life continued and eventually how he was treated at the end of the war wouldn't have mattered as much as it faded into the background of a life filled with friends, family, and peace.

 

[AlexWildfire]

...

Please, for the love of all that is holly, if you are not going to use punctuation at least separate the paragraphs so its readable, otherwise nobody can read that