VN Ren'Py Seeking Closure [v0.7.1] [Captain Crystallo]

[Dessolos]

but in all seriousness yeah I feel shitty about cheating on Julia and im a non immersive player. You have to be a monster to feel something about it

 

[AnonW123]

This post was initially only meant for my Patreon, but I might as well share it here too.
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Welcome to my open development discussion!

As we’re approaching the end of Part 1, it’s time for me to decide how I’m going to tackle a lot of the issues that have been bugging me for the last couple of months. If I want to make any notable changes to the first half of the game, it has to be now since I don’t want to return to Part 1 once it’s out (outside of the necessary bug fixes, obviously).

Throughout Seeking Closure’s existence, the main three critiques I received were:

1. I hate that Julia is the default girlfriend in the present timeline.
2. Being in the present feels confusing since I, as the player, have no idea what happened in the past so I don’t know which decisions to make.
3. I want to spend more time in the present to get the story going and have a reason to care about the characters introduced there.

The second and third points contradict each other, so with that alone – I can’t please everyone, but there are still changes I can introduce to ensure the game is more enjoyable for players who will discover it in the future here or on Steam.

It’s fair to assume that if you’re reading this, you’re already invested enough to stick with the game even if I keep everything as it is, but I need to consider future players as well.

When I devised my visual novel initially, making Julia the mandatory girlfriend felt like the only “right” choice for the story I wanted to tell. However, after 18 months of development, I regret this decision, particularly since I want to place as big of an emphasis on “player choice” as I can.

In my original storyboard, I wanted to add one chapter in the Present for every two spent in the Past until it catches up to the “current day”. This would allow me to give all the necessary backstory while also developing the characters introduced in the Present. Since I didn’t have any experience creating a story like this, the concept looked fine on paper.

However, I quickly realized that I’d written myself into a corner since it’s not possible to spend a lot of time in the Present timeline without other characters (or the MC) referencing past events. Nevertheless, I couldn’t freely reference the Past since you as the player haven’t experienced it yet and didn’t make the choices that will shape it. This wouldn’t have been an issue in a kinetic novel, but that’s not what I’m doing here.

Chapter 4 was already a bit messy. Even though it didn’t force you to commit to anything, you can have Fleur/Susan/Micaela show renewed interest in you (based on your choices in previous chapters), but since it’s possible to be completely done with them by the end of Part 1, their behavior can make 0 sense in retrospect depending on your decisions.

As such, I decided to stick to the Past timeline until it’s finished to avoid making that issue even bigger. This resulted in all the girls that are only included in the Present feeling forgotten and it will be an uphill battle to make the players care about them later, which is an issue since they have an important role to play in the story.

Another point of critique is the hairstyles of the girls from the past being very different in the present. Similar to most people, I prefer their past looks too, but at the same time, it would be weird if most of them kept the same hair for 5 years. On the other hand, is realism important in this case if the new hairstyle makes people like them less? I honestly don’t know and I might resolve this problem in a poll on a girl-by-girl basis.

With all of that being said, I’m currently considering several options while I gradually speed up development for Chapter 8.

1. Keep everything as is. The laziest option, but one that a lot of existing fans and supporters will likely prefer since they’ve already played through all the problematic parts. However, I obviously would like to receive more supporters over time, so it’s not the optimal solution for me.
2. Only make minor tweaks throughout Part 1, changing and expanding some of the dialogue to be less confusing and/or committal, while also adding more options to abandon paths that you’re no longer interested in.
3. In addition to the above, rework the Julia-related content in Part 1 to make her an optional girlfriend and have a separate choice at the start of Part 2 (or in the end of Part 1) for players who will continue their old saves.
4. Remove all the “Present day” scenes outside of arriving at the hotel and having the “flashback”, while keeping (and adding more) scenes of meeting Julia to build up her character without making her MC’s girlfriend by default. As such, at the start of Part 2, it’ll be up to you if Julia comes with you as your friend or love interest. Another benefit of this approach is that when you start talking to the present-day versions of all the girls, you’ll have full information on how your relationship developed and if you’re still interested in them. The downside is – it makes the story more linear, removing most of the “What happened? How did it come to this?” intrigue from the present timeline. However, since it isn’t delivered in a compelling manner already, maybe it’s not that big of a loss. If you’re a returning player, another drawback is that you’ll have to replay most of the scenes from Chapters 1 and 4 in Part 2, which will feel wonky and immersion-breaking if you continue your old save(s).
5. Reframe the entire story and finish everything in the past, pretending the present timeline never existed, as the MC gets to ride into the sunset at the end of his vacation. This option completely abandons the premise of the story I wanted to tell, but I’m thinking about it for two reasons. Firstly, since there are no signs of the war ending anytime soon, I have no idea how long I’ll manage to avoid getting enlisted into the military against my will. As such, I can disappear any day without warning and you won’t get any closure for the game at all. Secondly, the current projections are that I’ll have electrical power for only about 6-8 hours out of 24 a day, starting from November, and if that happens, this will bring the development process to a near complete halt. I don’t want to choose this option, but if the consensus is “better an unplanned ending than no ending at all”, then maybe it’s the “right” thing to do.

My mind has been split between all these different options for months now and I still can’t commit to a single direction since all of them have significant drawbacks.

As such, if you have any thoughts on the matter, or if you would like to suggest a completely different option, I’m open to hearing you out (even if it’s related to something relatively small like the hairstyle dilemma). That doesn’t mean I’m going to do what someone else tells me to, but it might help me make a decision, while I continue to work on Chapter 8 since most of it is set in stone regardless of anything discussed above.

A part of me didn’t want to write this post since I don’t want to disappoint and upset people who will provide solid arguments that I won’t listen to (since it’s impossible to satisfy everyone), but I still decided to publish it in hopes of gaining some unique insight that I’m lacking at the moment.
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I think you've probably made up your mind by now but I'll add my two cents.

With respect to Points 4 and 5 :

It doesn't make sense to abandon your entire premise to address criticisms. There will always be criticisms and you can't satisfy everyone and that includes you yourself as the dev. There will be things that you wish you hadn't done or just can't seem to get right no matter what you do.

The game attracted me based on the premise of exploring a story back and forth across two different timelines. That makes it seem more unique than a lot of other avns for me. I prefer the original approach of spend some time in the present then go to the past and vice versa as opposed to the current approach of trying to wrap up everything in the past.

My suggestion is focus in the present on the new mystery which you hinted at (why everyone is brought back) and on the Mc interacting with the new characters. You can minimize the interaction with the past characters until a choice is made in the past that would inform a scene in the present.


With respect to Points 2 and 3 :
I agree with this. I like Julia as a potential Li but being forced into the relationship with her from the start isn't great. It forces the Mc to cheat if he likes any of the other Lis. Since this isn't a harem game (or full harem) choices have to be made.


I want to say that you have my prayers,wishes,hopes with respect to the war situation. I hope you stay safe and free. The fact that you are able to keep going under such conditions speaks to your inner strength.

Good luck with the game.

 

[Captain Crystallo]

I think you've probably made up your mind by now but I'll add my two cents.

With respect to Points 4 and 5 :

It doesn't make sense to abandon your entire premise to address criticisms. There will always be criticisms and you can't satisfy everyone and that includes you yourself as the dev. There will be things that you wish you hadn't done or just can't seem to get right no matter what you do.

The game attracted me based on the premise of exploring a story back and forth across two different timelines. That makes it seem more unique than a lot of other avns for me. I prefer the original approach of spend some time in the present then go to the past and vice versa as opposed to the current approach of trying to wrap up everything in the past.

My suggestion is focus in the present on the new mystery which you hinted at (why everyone is brought back) and on the Mc interacting with the new characters. You can minimize the interaction with the past characters until a choice is made in the past that would inform a scene in the present.


With respect to Points 2 and 3 :
I agree with this. I like Julia as a potential Li but being forced into the relationship with her from the start isn't great. It forces the Mc to cheat if he likes any of the other Lis. Since this isn't a harem game (or full harem) choices have to be made.


I want to say that you have my prayers,wishes,hopes with respect to the war situation. I hope you stay safe and free. The fact that you are able to keep going under such conditions speaks to your inner strength.

Good luck with the game.

Greatly appreciate both the detailed feedback and the kind words.

I have a clearer idea of what I'm planning to do, but it never hurts to get another perspective especially since I haven't implemented any changes yet, as I'm focusing on making Chapter 8 for now.

 

[Zorro#34]

Right now Julia is the best implementation of a "Current GF" I ever saw, with most other options being in the past, allowing the player to "explore options" without cheating. However, with how much screentime she has, her being the current GF is her only advantage, and the choice between her and the favourite Past girl is really tough, which is what makes it interesting.

If she's just a friend, there is really 0 reason for the player to choose her. To remain competitive in that case, she needs much more screentime than she has now, creating unnecessary work. Also, the premise of "the past and the present" loses a lot if all of the real options are in the past.

 

[byaaahh]

If she's just a friend, there is really 0 reason for the player to choose her.

I don't entirely agree. If she's strictly locked as a friend, then sure.

However, if the kiss on the coffee date determine if she is your girlfriend, then you can uncover the past while remaining relatively close to the story as it is now. If you choose the hug, you have a friend to support MC and avoid forced infidelity if you don't want to pursue her path.

 

[flaviopaganini]

Right now Julia is the best implementation of a "Current GF" I ever saw, with most other options being in the past, allowing the player to "explore options" without cheating. However, with how much screentime she has, her being the current GF is her only advantage, and the choice between her and the favourite Past girl is really tough, which is what makes it interesting.

If she's just a friend, there is really 0 reason for the player to choose her. To remain competitive in that case, she needs much more screentime that she has now, creating unnecessary work. Also, the premise of "the past and the present" loses a lot if all of the real options are in the past.

If the developer creates in the next episodes a solid flashback showing how she helped us recover mentally, it will add a lot. It would be great because it would make us develop a bond with an LI from the past while also forming a connection with the person who helped us survive mentally, emulating exactly the feeling the MC would have had at that time.

 

[Zorro#34]

However, if the kiss on the coffee date determine if she is your girlfriend

Yeah, that'd appease everyone, but does Cap have the time to create so much variability?

If the developer creates in the next episodes a solid flashback showing how she helped us recover mentally, it will add a lot. It would be great because it would make us develop a bond with an LI from the past while also forming a connection with the person who helped us survive mentally, emulating exactly the feeling the MC would have had at that time.

That'd add to friendship, not to romance. She helped him, nice, but without GF status or any prior romance, be it pre-determined or optional, that ain't beating the special connection he has to Elena, Katy, or even Fleur. Also, having second thoughts before proposing is reasonable and isn't (very) derogatory towards Julia; but remembering someone else before entering any sort of relationship with her? It means the MC doesn't love the new girl at all...

Also, I fully agree with this:

Besides, MC inviting Julia as a friend and leaving Sebastian behind would be kinda weird lol.

 

[Captain Crystallo]

Yeah, that'd appease everyone, but does Cap have the time to create so much variability?



That'd add to friendship, not to romance. She helped him, nice, but without GF status or any prior romance, be it pre-determined or optional, that ain't beating the special connection he has to Elena, Katy, or even Fleur. Also, having second thoughts before proposing is reasonable and isn't (very) derogatory towards Julia; but remembering someone else before entering any sort of relationship with her? It means the MC doesn't love the new girl at all...

Also, I fully agree with this:

You're mostly on point in both of your posts. If Julia becomes a friend, she'll stand an even lesser chance against the girls from the past and her inclusion in the plot will feel more contrived.

And trying to appease both camps is a LOT of work and I'm not sure I'd even do both paths justice anyway.

Hence why I'm dedicating most of my effort to Chapter 8 for now, while exploring different rework options through drafts and notes.

Thanks for reminding me why I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place

 

[Dessolos]

Right now Julia is the best implementation of a "Current GF" I ever saw, with most other options being in the past, allowing the player to "explore options" without cheating. However, with how much screentime she has, her being the current GF is her only advantage, and the choice between her and the favourite Past girl is really tough, which is what makes it interesting.

If she's just a friend, there is really 0 reason for the player to choose her. To remain competitive in that case, she needs much more screentime than she has now, creating unnecessary work. Also, the premise of "the past and the present" loses a lot if all of the real options are in the past.

I disagree personally for me it doesn't matter if she is a girlfriend or friend I still feel like I have 0 reason to pick her. For me she needs more screentime either way for me to not want to cheat on her. For me she would work better as a friend because I have 0 reason to pick her right now so im going to be a piece of shit and cheat on her still.

With that said I do see where you are coming from cause there will be players they won't cheat on her even if she needs more screentime. So her being a girlfriend is an advantage towards those players.

 

[Anteron]

I know most people dislike when the MC starts a game with a girlfriend they didn't pick.

 

[Dessolos]

I know most people dislike when the MC starts a game with a girlfriend they didn't pick.

I actually almost dropped a game once cause the forced girlfriend broke up with the MC in the prologue. Since they felt like a perfect couple then the break up was super sad and bummed me out lol. I had to ctrl skip through the game to make sure she returns to decide if I was gonna drop the game or not.

 

[MiltonPowers]

I actually almost dropped a game once cause the forced girlfriend broke up with the MC in the prologue. Since they felt like a perfect couple then the break up was super sad and bummed me out lol. I had to ctrl skip through the game to make sure she returns to decide if I was gonna drop the game or not.

I'm the opposite, I would have been ecstatic to break up in prologue, and then build a relationship. Even if the forced partner is someone I would have chosen, I'd prefer to make the choice myself and enjoy the journey. If it's someone I wouldn't have chosen, and they aren't breaking up very early, I really need to like the AVN to not drop it.

 

[Dessolos]

I'm the opposite, I would have been ecstatic to break up in prologue, and then build a relationship. Even if the forced partner is someone I would have chosen, I'd prefer to make the choice myself and enjoy the journey. If it's someone I wouldn't have chosen, and they aren't breaking up very early, I really need to like the AVN to not drop it.

Normally i'm the same just not for that game cause the prologue they made me feel something like they were so perfect haha. Maybe if the break up scene was less sad I would of felt the same and looked forward to rebuilding the relationship. But with this game I would of been happy to do it with no question wouldn't even 2nd guess myself.

 

[MiltonPowers]

Normally i'm the same just not for that game cause the prologue they made me feel something like they were so perfect haha. Maybe if the break up scene was less sad I would of felt the same and looked forward to rebuilding the relationship. But with this game I would of been happy to do it with no question wouldn't even 2nd guess myself.

You'll have to message me the name of the game you're talking about.

 

[someyoungguy]

You're mostly on point in both of your posts. If Julia becomes a friend, she'll stand an even lesser chance against the girls from the past and her inclusion in the plot will feel more contrived.

And trying to appease both camps is a LOT of work and I'm not sure I'd even do both paths justice anyway.

Hence why I'm dedicating most of my effort to Chapter 8 for now, while exploring different rework options through drafts and notes.

Thanks for reminding me why I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place

I haven't gotten to the point in the game you're discussing yet, but I am enjoying the premise of the game so far. I thought of a potential solution to the problem you seem to be having that might not require as much retconning/reworking of previous chapters. It seems part of the issue is that Julia is a forced LI, which would take a lot of rewriting to fix. Imo, trying to "fix" what is essentially the setup for the game that's given in the description on the first page to appease people who aren't into that premise but played the game anyway is probably a losing battle, in many respects. A more pressing issue (again, this is just my perspective having not gotten to that point in the game yet, so feel free to ignore it if you think I'm way off base), is that a lot of people seem to resent that they feel like they're being forced to cheat on Julia in order to choose another LI. Just make it so you can choose another LI without having to cheat.

If you still want to rework/retcon previous older content (including backfilling the game with more Julia content to make her more compelling as a LI), you'd still have the option to do that at whatever pace you feel comfortable with if you're convinced the number of new fans those changes would bring would be worth the effort of changing that existing content. In my mind, it seems like it would be most important to fix the situation that is bothering the most fans that you already have.

I've thought of two potential fixes to the forced cheating situation, which aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The simplest is to just give the option to break up with Julia without having to cheat on her. Another possibility would be to have the option to open up their relationship before getting to the point of choosing to be with another LI. I know you're not wanting to make a harem game, but if you want to implement the possibility of dating multiple LIs at all, I'm not sure there's a better place to do it than when deciding whether to leave or stay with the default LI. This would obviously depend a lot on how you would end up writing/implementing the scenario whenever it would come up, but it's difficult to imagine that it would feel natural for that option to be available later in the game if it wasn't a possibility at this point in the story. Verisimilitude can be a tricky thing to achieve, but from a MC perspective, it tends to kind of break down in a narrative when a protagonist is required to make a sacrifice in a certain situation but isn't when that situation comes up again.

Great job and good luck

 

[Captain Crystallo]

I haven't gotten to the point in the game you're discussing yet, but I am enjoying the premise of the game so far. I thought of a potential solution to the problem you seem to be having that might not require as much retconning/reworking of previous chapters. It seems part of the issue is that Julia is a forced LI, which would take a lot of rewriting to fix. Imo, trying to "fix" what is essentially the setup for the game that's given in the description on the first page to appease people who aren't into that premise but played the game anyway is probably a losing battle, in many respects. A more pressing issue (again, this is just my perspective having not gotten to that point in the game yet, so feel free to ignore it if you think I'm way off base), is that a lot of people seem to resent that they feel like they're being forced to cheat on Julia in order to choose another LI. Just make it so you can choose another LI without having to cheat.

If you still want to rework/retcon previous older content (including backfilling the game with more Julia content to make her more compelling as a LI), you'd still have the option to do that at whatever pace you feel comfortable with if you're convinced the number of new fans those changes would bring would be worth the effort of changing that existing content. In my mind, it seems like it would be most important to fix the situation that is bothering the most fans that you already have.

I've thought of two potential fixes to the forced cheating situation, which aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The simplest is to just give the option to break up with Julia without having to cheat on her. Another possibility would be to have the option to open up their relationship before getting to the point of choosing to be with another LI. I know you're not wanting to make a harem game, but if you want to implement the possibility of dating multiple LIs at all, I'm not sure there's a better place to do it than when deciding whether to leave or stay with the default LI. This would obviously depend a lot on how you would end up writing/implementing the scenario whenever it would come up, but it's difficult to imagine that it would feel natural for that option to be available later in the game if it wasn't a possibility at this point in the story. Verisimilitude can be a tricky thing to achieve, but from a MC perspective, it tends to kind of break down in a narrative when a protagonist is required to make a sacrifice in a certain situation but isn't when that situation comes up again.

Great job and good luck

Hello!
First of, thanks for taking the time to share your opinion and suggestions in such detail!

While the last few pages in this thread can make it seem like most people only have a problem with cheating, the overall negative reception of Julia always went further than that.

Many players start the game, see a mandatory GF, and instantly quit without even giving it a shot. Many others admitted that while they don't like Julia, they don't want to break up with her because that will make them feel like an asshole since she's a kind person. Even the people who completed all the available content, love the game, and support me on Patreon still largely agree that having Julia be forced on you feels bad.
All this is to say that the problem goes deeper than cheating/amicable breakup.

That being said, your main point on players being most upset because they feel like the game nudges them into cheating still stands and needs to be addressed regardless of how much work beyond that I'm going to do.

 

[AlexMpog]

I actually almost dropped a game once cause the forced girlfriend broke up with the MC in the prologue. Since they felt like a perfect couple then the break up was super sad and bummed me out lol. I had to ctrl skip through the game to make sure she returns to decide if I was gonna drop the game or not.

If we are talking about the same game FoW - I was also very upset about that break up, funny though, when she appeared again I wasn't interested in her as a LI anymore, probably because of my "Ex should remain Ex" thing))

 

[MiltonPowers]

If we are talking about the same game FoW - I was also very upset about that break up, funny though, when she appeared again I wasn't interested in her as a LI anymore, probably because of my "Ex should remain Ex" thing))

It was. I wasn't upset about the breakup (surprise, surprise ). But I am doing a path for her and am enjoying building a romance path with her.

 

[Dessolos]

If we are talking about the same game FoW - I was also very upset about that break up, funny though, when she appeared again I wasn't interested in her as a LI anymore, probably because of my "Ex should remain Ex" thing))

haha for me a character being an ex makes me want to go after them even more as I like the whole concept of getting back together bonus points if it was a messy breakup and the MC has to repair the relationship. Even if they are a horrible LI those those horrible ones get played last however.

 

[Zorro#34]

If we are talking about the same game FoW - I was also very upset about that break up, funny though, when she appeared again I wasn't interested in her as a LI anymore, probably because of my "Ex should remain Ex" thing))

I'll intervene, if you don't mind, but Kristyn from FoW is my favourite ex ever (like Julia from SC is my favourite ever current), specifically because she and Rex were good together and because her reasoning for the breakup is sympathetic, unlike many other examples who either cheat or leave the MC to pursue career opportunities (I mean, I can respect the latter case, but I don't really want to get back with such a person). She still loses out against Kendra tho.

Anyways, I don't see that much of a problem with current GFs in AVNs - they are rare enough not to become an overused trope, and they present an interesting and hard choice. To me, an MC is not me, but rather a hybrid of me and the character he is written to be, so I'm totally fine with him having made some choices before the game's events. In total, I've played 6 games with pre-defined GFs, and I've only broken up with them in 2. In just those 6 examples, the decisions to break up were both easy and hard, and the decisions to maintain the relationship were both easy and hard, too, and they were all memorable.

Coming back to SC: I can see how having to cheat to switch from Julia to anybody else in the present may seem a bad thing, but the only actual cheating on her so far (Katy if there was a romance with her in the past) is player's choice and only deducts some points from Katy if she is refused, not closes her off completely. So, Cap can still avoid "mandatory" cheating without changing anything and have the MC break up with Jules before making the final choice of girl.

One may argue that emotional cheating is still cheating - well, that thing is part of the premise and the MC's characterization, can't really get rid of that.