VN Ren'Py Single Again [v1.24.2] [Clever name games]

[rostabu]

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found its not just ohio that has that "in loco parentis" law my state does too. so if ever you were " in place of parent" you can never have a relationship without the ensuing possible legal entanglement

 

[Son of Durin]

I had a though I'm not sure that I've seen expressed regarding Frank's constant mental hand-wringing over doing things with his girls. Many people complain that he wrestles with his conscience too much and it seems overdone. I personally don't think this is true (of course I have a moral baseline and strong ethics), but one thing you might consider: the time it takes for us to advance the conversation and read it is significantly longer than how that would play out in reality. We're talking about what would be micro-seconds of internal dialogue on most occasions while it takes us several seconds or even a minute to go through all of the slides. In reality, the mental back and forth would probably be very much like what is seen in the game, but would take just a moment to get through. I don't know if there's a better way to write that into the game where it's just flashes of concepts represented by a single word or maybe a couple of them, rather than a full mental conversation, but I suspect there would be less kvetching by the peanut gallery if that could somehow be accomplished.

 

[rostabu]

I had a though I'm not sure that I've seen expressed regarding Frank's constant mental hand-wringing over doing things with his girls. Many people complain that he wrestles with his conscience too much and it seems overdone. I personally don't think this is true (of course I have a moral baseline and strong ethics), but one thing you might consider: the time it takes for us to advance the conversation and read it is significantly longer than how that would play out in reality. We're talking about what would be micro-seconds of internal dialogue on most occasions while it takes us several seconds or even a minute to go through all of the slides. In reality, the mental back and forth would probably be very much like what is seen in the game, but would take just a moment to get through. I don't know if there's a better way to write that into the game where it's just flashes of concepts represented by a single word or maybe a couple of them, rather than a full mental conversation, but I suspect there would be less kvetching by the peanut gallery if that could somehow be accomplished.

very astute, never really thought about the time dialation involved in the reading of vs thinking of "a thing"

 

[UncleFredo]

I had a though I'm not sure that I've seen expressed regarding Frank's constant mental hand-wringing over doing things with his girls. Many people complain that he wrestles with his conscience too much and it seems overdone. I personally don't think this is true (of course I have a moral baseline and strong ethics), but one thing you might consider: the time it takes for us to advance the conversation and read it is significantly longer than how that would play out in reality. We're talking about what would be micro-seconds of internal dialogue on most occasions while it takes us several seconds or even a minute to go through all of the slides. In reality, the mental back and forth would probably be very much like what is seen in the game, but would take just a moment to get through. I don't know if there's a better way to write that into the game where it's just flashes of concepts represented by a single word or maybe a couple of them, rather than a full mental conversation, but I suspect there would be less kvetching by the peanut gallery if that could somehow be accomplished.

Except we're treated to this repetitive sequence over a course of many days and in the end he fucks the girls anyway. Then he repeats his internal monologue and either fucks them or is diverted from fucking them by outside events.

Struggling with yourself only matters if you resist. Struggling after you surrender, with no real desire to stop that behavior is just trying to make yourself feel better. He's been lying to himself since the VN began. At this point it's old and utterly unconvincing.

 

[Cartageno]

Except we're treated to this repetitive sequence over a course of many days and in the end he fucks the girls anyway. Then he repeats his internal monologue and either fucks them or is diverted from fucking them by outside events.

Struggling with yourself only matters if you resist. Struggling after you surrender, with no real desire to stop that behavior is just trying to make yourself feel better. He's been lying to himself since the VN began. At this point it's old and utterly unconvincing.

I would however argue that this is - while useless in the end - perfectly normal behavior. Ask a smoker how often he has an internal monologue about "really cutting down" and then lighting the next cigarette anyways 10 minutes later, or a couch potato about "I really should join the gym to get into a better shape". An internal struggle where only your bad conscience talks up every now and then without you really doing something about it is probably pretty common. Including lying to yourself "once this pack is empty I won't buy another and quit".

How much of a depiction of it really serves the game and its story is a different question - you need it to linger if you want to convey that it isn't done with. If you mention it too often, it becomes jarring. If the intervals are too large however, it starts coming out of nowhere when we thought that was settled by now.

 

[pgm_01]

Except we're treated to this repetitive sequence over a course of many days and in the end he fucks the girls anyway. Then he repeats his internal monologue and either fucks them or is diverted from fucking them by outside events.

Struggling with yourself only matters if you resist. Struggling after you surrender, with no real desire to stop that behavior is just trying to make yourself feel better. He's been lying to himself since the VN began. At this point it's old and utterly unconvincing.

Part of what is happening is post nut clarity, he feels guilty as hell for what he did, and so he argues with himself about it. Lilith goes through the same process that Frank does, and if you play the side game you see it. Essentially, after her biodad left, Lilith wanted a father. As she got older, she also wanted a Daddy in bed. It takes Frank moving out and her horrible breakup with Justin to finally be able to admit to herself that what she wanted was Frank to be her Father and her Daddy. Even Lilith tries to ignore her feelings and gives in eventually. She knew Frank was there for her since the beginning but could not admit her true feelings. The difference is that when Lilith wants something and goes for it, she does not think twice about it. Frank is getting there, but it takes him longer to reconcile what all of his true feelings are. Frank is not like the MC of Proud Father, Parental Love or Dating My Daughter. He knows what he wants but is afraid of the consequences of going for it. That seems reasonable, but it is different for an MC in a game like this.

 

[jclosed]

Part of what is happening is post nut clarity, he feels guilty as hell for what he did, and so he argues with himself about it. Lilith goes through the same process that Frank does, and if you play the side game you see it. Essentially, after her biodad left, Lilith wanted a father. As she got older, she also wanted a Daddy in bed. It takes Frank moving out and her horrible breakup with Justin to finally be able to admit to herself that what she wanted was Frank to be her Father and her Daddy. Even Lilith tries to ignore her feelings and gives in eventually. She knew Frank was there for her since the beginning but could not admit her true feelings. The difference is that when Lilith wants something and goes for it, she does not think twice about it. Frank is getting there, but it takes him longer to reconcile what all of his true feelings are. Frank is not like the MC of Proud Father, Parental Love or Dating My Daughter. He knows what he wants but is afraid of the consequences of going for it. That seems reasonable, but it is different for an MC in a game like this.

Hmm.. I think nobody disagrees with that. It's more a question of proportion. After playing this game you get the feeling it's about 60% hand-wringing, 10% erotica, and 30% story (I know that's not true, but you get that feeling because of the repetitiveness). I keep saying that I have no problem with the fact that it is in the game, but I have problems with the amount and repetitiveness of it. It feels like a cheap copy and paste (again - not true in reality, but it feels like that). At the end it's getting an empty routine that adds nothing to the story and feels like filler (and goes from giving feelings for the MC into annoyance onto the MC).

As I said - It's absolutely not the fact that it's there, but the proportionality of it that honestly does damage to the game. As a result I have put this VN on hold for now and wait until something changes in a positive way. I really love the story and the characters, I honestly can't say that enough, but have more and more trouble overcoming the long and hugely repetitive hand-wringing periods. It gets from interesting and full of feelings into dull and boring. From interesting and sympathetic to "Sigh, not again please". You can only use an effect in a VN that much until it gets too repetitive. An VN is not real life, and if you do not carefully balance stuff in it, there is a chance that the VN will damaged by that, and will loose it's attractiveness in the long turn. I do not say that's already happening, but seen the reactions (especially from newcomers), it's really going on thin ice now.

This it, of course, a personal view. But I think I am not the only one with that view. And, also of course, this is only a commentary and no critique to the writer or attempt to change anything. Maybe people find this critique repetitive, but keep in mind it's a critique on the repetitiveness of the game/VN itself. So that's to be expected to be honest...

 

[MrLKX]

Also, one has to hand it to Frank that he has his moments now and then: In the first sequence, where Lilli is bitching at you and you can either cut her down to size, then at the judge where you can get verbally louder when Shannon comes with her accusations and in the last update, during the phone call with the phone scammers.

In general, at least I find Frank to be a more comprehensible character compared to other protagonists. When he tells Meiko that she should tell her parents that she could lose her job and Meiko replies that that would be lying, my reaction was 1:1 the same as Frank's: It's not lying, it's just bending the truth. But well, that could be just me, but for me it was an amusing and somewhat "spooky" parallel.

 

[Tavi13]

I had a though I'm not sure that I've seen expressed regarding Frank's constant mental hand-wringing over doing things with his girls. Many people complain that he wrestles with his conscience too much and it seems overdone. I personally don't think this is true (of course I have a moral baseline and strong ethics), but one thing you might consider: the time it takes for us to advance the conversation and read it is significantly longer than how that would play out in reality. We're talking about what would be micro-seconds of internal dialogue on most occasions while it takes us several seconds or even a minute to go through all of the slides. In reality, the mental back and forth would probably be very much like what is seen in the game, but would take just a moment to get through. I don't know if there's a better way to write that into the game where it's just flashes of concepts represented by a single word or maybe a couple of them, rather than a full mental conversation, but I suspect there would be less kvetching by the peanut gallery if that could somehow be accomplished.

Agreed.

I recently went back and did a full play and noticed that it was easier to see internal monologue getting better, and the MC growing more accepting of the situation, as the story progresses.
I think the problem (just my opinion) is that it gets tedious to read if you are going update by update. It definitely humanizes the MC, and gives the story a realistic feeling that isn't often found in VN's, but it can grow a bit stale when it is the major part of the text in each update.
Like you; I have no idea if there is be a better way of handling the internal monologue.
I do think it is important to both the story, and to the development of the characters (without it this would just be another 'gotta-bang-'em-all' read), and I wouldn't want this to lose the unique feel that it has.

 

[Loxxxthenasty]

So nice to see everyone using their words and such to sugar coat the REAL point of concern with this VN.... The MC is a paranoid pussy!!! He's written to the point he is mentally jarring...Don't get me wrong!! I absolutely love the story, but I am not lying when I say I struggled to get through ch1 because his back and forth internal nitpicking kept pushing me to discontinue....but I won't!! Yes he genuinely tries but takes steps forward and then punishes himself for it... In a way he's a selfish cunt of a man.... He wants the girls, but the thought of them with someone else really bugs him out.... Yet the pussyman won't try to satisfy them??? They are younger than him yet they know what they want and go hard for it.. He seems to have left his nuts on Shannon's nightstand, because he doesn't use them... AT ALL!!! Don't even call his thought process rational... It reeks of fear paranoia distrust and hypocrisy!! Of all the MC's I've come across he is by far the worst!!! I do hope he retrieves his nuts in ch2...

 

[Son of Durin]

So nice to see everyone using their words and such to sugar coat the REAL point of concern with this VN.... The MC is a paranoid pussy!!! He's written to the point he is mentally jarring...Don't get me wrong!! I absolutely love the story, but I am not lying when I say I struggled to get through ch1 because his back and forth internal nitpicking kept pushing me to discontinue....but I won't!! Yes he genuinely tries but takes steps forward and then punishes himself for it... In a way he's a selfish cunt of a man.... He wants the girls, but the thought of them with someone else really bugs him out.... Yet the pussyman won't try to satisfy them??? They are younger than him yet they know what they want and go hard for it.. He seems to have left his nuts on Shannon's nightstand, because he doesn't use them... AT ALL!!! Don't even call his thought process rational... It reeks of fear paranoia distrust and hypocrisy!! Of all the MC's I've come across he is by far the worst!!! I do hope he retrieves his nuts in ch2...

Questions: Do you have step daughters? How would you react to them coming onto you? If you say you wouldn't struggle, I call bullshit or sociopath. You'd likely be a huge pussyman yourself.

 

[Cartageno]

So nice to see everyone using their words and such to sugar coat the REAL point of concern with this VN.... The MC is a paranoid pussy!!! He's written to the point he is mentally jarring...Don't get me wrong!! I absolutely love the story, but I am not lying when I say I struggled to get through ch1 because his back and forth internal nitpicking kept pushing me to discontinue....but I won't!! Yes he genuinely tries but takes steps forward and then punishes himself for it... In a way he's a selfish cunt of a man.... He wants the girls, but the thought of them with someone else really bugs him out.... Yet the pussyman won't try to satisfy them??? They are younger than him yet they know what they want and go hard for it.. He seems to have left his nuts on Shannon's nightstand, because he doesn't use them... AT ALL!!! Don't even call his thought process rational... It reeks of fear paranoia distrust and hypocrisy!! Of all the MC's I've come across he is by far the worst!!! I do hope he retrieves his nuts in ch2...

While I do agree with the monologue sometimes getting jarring I would argue that against what you wrote any MC just saying "Oh, young girls I can fuck" without considering the implications given their specific relationship and their different stages in life is the "selfish cunt of a man". You seem to be confusing "having nuts" with "not caring about others". Nevermind that these relationships also can mean a lot of real life trouble - yes, everything is perfectly legal but will the neighbors care? And if you're self employed like Frank is, "what the world thinks" is more important than the already not to be neglegted issue of "being shunned".

If you said that you don't want these troubles in a wish fulfillment fantasy game, that'd be fine but then this game is not for you. If you however consider it "paranoid", "mentally jarring", "hypocrisy" (I don't see at all how that would even apply) then I heartily disagree.

 

[felicemastronzo]

While I do agree with the monologue sometimes getting jarring I would argue that against what you wrote any MC just saying "Oh, young girls I can fuck" without considering the implications given their specific relationship and their different stages in life is the "selfish cunt of a man". You seem to be confusing "having nuts" with "not caring about others". Nevermind that these relationships also can mean a lot of real life trouble - yes, everything is perfectly legal but will the neighbors care? And if you're self employed like Frank is, "what the world thinks" is more important than the already not to be neglegted issue of "being shunned".

If you said that you don't want these troubles in a wish fulfillment fantasy game, that'd be fine but then this game is not for you. If you however consider it "paranoid", "mentally jarring", "hypocrisy" (I don't see at all how that would even apply) then I heartily disagree.

but how do you reconcile all these (correct and noble) concerns with the decision to 'entrust' Meiko to Becca?

up to that moment Mc was complaining about the fruit that Becca dropped from the tree, but at that moment he becomes 100% active, he sets things in motion

but just in general: going along with Becca's plan (once her intentions have been revealed) and then having crises of conscience is pretty hypocritical. it's one thing to have temptations, those are uncontrollable, it's another to accept his role in the "grand plan"

 

[pgm_01]

but just in general: going along with Becca's plan (once her intentions have been revealed) and then having crises of conscience is pretty hypocritical. it's one thing to have temptations, those are uncontrollable, it's another to accept her role in the "grand plan"

He is 100% a hypocrite and he knows it. That is part of the arguments he has had with the fairy versions of the girls. I think it was fairy Abby that called him out on it, he was worried about lewding her, and she points out she is naked in her fairy form in his head. He has already lewded all his girls in his head.

 

[felicemastronzo]

He is 100% a hypocrite and he knows it. That is part of the arguments he has had with the fairy versions of the girls. I think it was fairy Abby that called him out on it, he was worried about lewding her, and she points out she is naked in her fairy form in his head. He has already lewded all his girls in his head.

dreams are neutral territory, everything applies there and there is no hypocrisy by definition we are in the land of the unconscious.

Let me explain better: I fully understand the MC's fear of losing everything, that is, that the risk of this "upgrade" in their relationship could lead to a complete game over (in reality it would hardly be like that), but I don't like this kidnapped role that he plays in Becca's plan, he doesn't want to, he doesn't agree but he does everything he has to do. Becca at one point is extremely honest with him about her intentions, that's the moment to really oppose her, not between two sexual acts... otherwise, he hypocritically shifts all the burden of blame onto Becca

 

[Mirso]

When is next updated?

 

[Loxxxthenasty]

Questions: Do you have step daughters? How would you react to them coming onto you? If you say you wouldn't struggle, I call bullshit or sociopath. You'd likely be a huge pussyman yourself.

TBH I do have step daughters and the issue of their umm... being overly affectionate has come up before.. I got their mother involved in dealing with the issue.. We both had some sitdowns with them both and opted to have an open non judgemental discussion on it.. At first I was truly worried I would push them away or make them shut down completely, but I had my wife with me the whole time. While I am far from being a perfect man, they saw in me what they want in a partner so I understand where their uhhh...confusion stemmed from and I am glad they see me as they do because it pushed them to set a high bar for potential suitors... I want grandkids badly but I want my daughters to be in a happy, healthy relationship with a man that truly cares and loves them as their parents do.. As far as the sexual aspect it was a matter of putting their feelings into proper context and redirecting that energy so to speak..BTW in contrast to the story, my wife and I have a good relationship and share a similar view in what we desire for our children and for age 45 I am a sexy muther fucker that takes care of mind and body so I was flattered by them.. The sex step was never in the cards and my daughters are beautiful and intelligent and I am proud of the ppl we shaped and keep shaping them to be.. If I am the standard they judge other men by so be it... I am a depraved soul sexually and my wife loves it and because of this my kids are comfortable telling me anything and I guide them accordingly so any guys coming on has a lot of work to do to get in their good graces... I'm just glad I don't have to deal with Justin issues because I will seriously fuck up anyone that hurts my babies!! PS... I am seriously in touch with all aspect of myself so I could never see my daughters sexually. I get enough ass on a regular and my wife is a submissive freak so I don't have to!!

 

[Loxxxthenasty]

dreams are neutral territory, everything applies there and there is no hypocrisy by definition we are in the land of the unconscious.

Let me explain better: I fully understand the MC's fear of losing everything, that is, that the risk of this "upgrade" in their relationship could lead to a complete game over (in reality it would hardly be like that), but I don't like this kidnapped role that he plays in Becca's plan, he doesn't want to, he doesn't agree but he does everything he has to do. Becca at one point is extremely honest with him about her intentions, that's the moment to really oppose her, not between two sexual acts... otherwise, he hypocritically shifts all the burden of blame onto Becca

Agreed

 

[Loxxxthenasty]

While I do agree with the monologue sometimes getting jarring I would argue that against what you wrote any MC just saying "Oh, young girls I can fuck" without considering the implications given their specific relationship and their different stages in life is the "selfish cunt of a man". You seem to be confusing "having nuts" with "not caring about others". Nevermind that these relationships also can mean a lot of real life trouble - yes, everything is perfectly legal but will the neighbors care? And if you're self employed like Frank is, "what the world thinks" is more important than the already not to be neglegted issue of "being shunned".

If you said that you don't want these troubles in a wish fulfillment fantasy game, that'd be fine but then this game is not for you. If you however consider it "paranoid", "mentally jarring", "hypocrisy" (I don't see at all how that would even apply) then I heartily disagree.

I see your point and while I agree to an extent... If you don't want something you just don't get into it... While I understand Frank's moral debacle I personally don't give a half fuck about external opinions.. It's plain he is no alpha as Becca leads him by the nose.. He acts as if he has no say in anything and lets a lo of stuff fly. I have a step daughter something like Lilith.. At first I kept my distance but over time I got to see she respects someone just as tough.. Striking a balance between being a loving dad and a no nonsense authority is crucial. My Sha respects strength and firmness while Ari loves to be coddled so I deal a softer hand to her... Frank just tries to please everyone for fear of losing them otherwise... NO BALLS!!

 

[BOBJevent]

TBH I do have step daughters and the issue of their umm... being overly affectionate has come up before.. I got their mother involved in dealing with the issue.. We both had some sitdowns with them both and opted to have an open non judgemental discussion on it.. At first I was truly worried I would push them away or make them shut down completely, but I had my wife with me the whole time. While I am far from being a perfect man, they saw in me what they want in a partner so I understand where their uhhh...confusion stemmed from and I am glad they see me as they do because it pushed them to set a high bar for potential suitors... I want grandkids badly but I want my daughters to be in a happy, healthy relationship with a man that truly cares and loves them as their parents do.. As far as the sexual aspect it was a matter of putting their feelings into proper context and redirecting that energy so to speak..BTW in contrast to the story, my wife and I have a good relationship and share a similar view in what we desire for our children and for age 45 I am a sexy muther fucker that takes care of mind and body so I was flattered by them.. The sex step was never in the cards and my daughters are beautiful and intelligent and I am proud of the ppl we shaped and keep shaping them to be.. If I am the standard they judge other men by so be it... I am a depraved soul sexually and my wife loves it and because of this my kids are comfortable telling me anything and I guide them accordingly so any guys coming on has a lot of work to do to get in their good graces... I'm just glad I don't have to deal with Justin issues because I will seriously fuck up anyone that hurts my babies!! PS... I am seriously in touch with all aspect of myself so I could never see my daughters sexually. I get enough ass on a regular and my wife is a submissive freak so I don't have to!!

Thank you for sharing your story, its great to read such a positive aspect of real life.