So, why the hate on NTR?

[tanstaafl]

Because I live in a community that is still somewhat intact.

Your trailer is not a community.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

Beats me, I don't remember when was the last time I met an atheist if ever. Who knows where he live.

Well it get even weirder
- The (plural) unhappy old women he meets are childless - so hes not a decedent
- He then seems to be discussing religion with them

Because I live in a community that is still somewhat intact.

If you mean Rogan, he's a leftist. Tate is a half black trans jew who said a lot of good things until his assets where seized by globo homo. Controled opposition since then.

Your community is not intact, or you wouldn't desperately be seeking the ones you are online.

 

[tanstaafl]

Well it get even weirder
- The (plural) unhappy old women he meets are childless - so hes not a decedent
- He then seems to be discussing religion with them

I'm not surprised about the religion bit. Have you seen his posts in Politics thread? Oof.

 

[Geigi]

I have to say, this NTR thread is bringing several of these people out of the woodwork, might add a new one to the list of reasons people hate ntr

'cant get a girlfriend and are looking for something other than themselves to blame'

It seems that NTR is for some cure and for some poison because either they feel refreshed and have new look on life or they starting vomiting everything bad that was stuck in them and stay bitter.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

It seems that NTR is for some cure and for some poison because either they feel refreshed and have new look on life or they starting vomiting everything bad that was stuck in them and stay bitter.

At a guess its the combination of jealousy for 'those guys' getting women and the resentment towards women for not choosing them. You put a scenario forward where they get to watch a guy do a girl they want and it is way, way too close to home for them.

 

[MWPA78]

You guys desperately hope for a lot of things to be true about my life lol.

What if its not?

 

[tanstaafl]

What if its not?

Not likely.

 

[MissCougar]

It's like giving people the choice to consume crack. Just with worse results for society, men, and women.

Women were better off as property. Women are mentally ill now, miserable, and hurt. And angry. Society is.

Damn.

This is pretty wild to take in. I feel like you are plugged into Fox and CNN 24/7 and seeing crazy everywhere. You realize they are showing extremes on either side and the majority of us in the middle are like totally living life and happy.

This dude doesn't hang out with women, ever. And you know it.

I'm alarmed.

I have to say, this NTR thread is bringing several of these people out of the woodwork, might add a new one to the list of reasons people hate ntr

'cant get a girlfriend and are looking for something other than themselves to blame'

This is kind of the feeling I think. Probably doesn't help being on a literal video game porn forum either, I bet. This is where I see this kind of stuff.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

You guys desperately hope for a lot of things to be true about my life lol.

Wait, so you lied about meeting lots of depressed old childless women who don't like god?

 

[Geigi]

Women were better off as property. Women are mentally ill now, miserable, and hurt. And angry.

Ah right, because after a woman says I do on her fairytale wedding, marriage becomes hell when her husbandowner says since you said I do, you don't have the right to say no anymore.

Your trailer is not a community.

I wish I have one.

You guys desperately hope for a lot of things to be true about my life lol.

What if its not?

We won't judge if you are this guy.

 

[MissCougar]

Ummm. Wow. You don't know men if you think we're more kind to each other than women are to each other.

Nearly everything you mention about how women trash women can be equally said about men finding fault in other men.

As for the purity thing... That is all passed down through society whose laws, customs, and rules were primarily laid out and enforced by one sex. As such, it is systemic, baked in, over generations of reinforcement through those same laws, etc and maintaining "social desirability."

Also, a fair share of the machinations we do see within women's interactions with each other and men are rooted in the historical fact that for centuries the only value given to a woman was her peity, purity, prettiness, and ability to procreate because she was denied any power and control of beyond that with wealth, land, leadership, etc. The only control she was allowed was slivers of herself which men defined as valuable. So, social interactions became the focus of her sphere of intended control.

I do agree with you that it is all social constructs.

As for the double standard, it doesn't exist simply because we think it does. Study after study, research after research, historical document after historical document shows that it is so. It's not a perspective thing, it is a demonstrated thing with evidence to prove it exists.

Admittedly what I know of this is the tropes and such, I'm not exactly in these deep man conversations where they discuss these things.

I will bow down to being wrong. And wrong about the double standard. I'm not a psychologist or anything.

Morado mostly covered this, but just to emphasise - if you think men aren't mean to other men, we have vast amounts of evidence of bullying, hazing and toxic masculinity. If you think it still doesn't happen, I'm sorry but that's laughably naive. I'm not going to pretend that I understand how women treat each other with any level of detail other than the evidence that I can find online or witness in person but for every case of a woman being mean to another woman I can find evidence of a man being mean to a man in equal measure.

As to the "once a vagina has been filled" - you're only reinforcing the tropes that we've been discussing. That's just... sad honestly.

"What if I told you the double standard only exists because you think it does?" - is just straight up gaslighting. Why not just say "What if I told you racism only exists because you think it does?" or "What if I told you wage gaps only exist because you believe they do?"

I think was out of line, obviously people can be mean to people and I didn't try to indicate men are just nice to men all the time. I was wrong!

Definitely not trying to gaslight or mislead, I was wrong. I apologize.

 

[TheNautilus]

simple I ain't no cuck

 

[Lupiscanis]

I think was out of line, obviously people can be mean to people and I didn't try to indicate men are just nice to men all the time. I was wrong!

Definitely not trying to gaslight or mislead, I was wrong. I apologize.

It's fine. Honestly I think I was just annoyed at the general tone of replies in this thread and the coupled with the rando (not you) who seems to think that rape didn't exist before marriage... I kinda lost it there for a bit.

Apologies if I came across overly harsh.

 

[tanstaafl]

simple I ain't no cuck

A pure, honest answer. Simple and to the point. The threads would be so much shorter if more people were like you.

 

[Geigi]

A pure, honest answer. Simple and to the point. The threads would be so much smarter if more people were like you.

True. People write dissertation of NTR like it's for college. Maybe they could have a degree on NTR in Japan.

 

[MissCougar]

It's fine. Honestly I think I was just annoyed at the general tone of replies in this thread and the coupled with the rando (not you) who seems to think that rape didn't exist before marriage... I kinda lost it there for a bit.

Apologies if I came across overly harsh.

It's fine. It seems like these threads sometimes get heated out of nowhere! And that was what kicked me off too, there will always be fights over who is better or has life easier than the other gender.

I honestly don't know. I am not like a person who lived in several ages that I remember and I'm just a girl in the western world living life and doing my thing. Trying to have fun while I do it!

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

This is pretty wild to take in. I feel like you are plugged into Fox and CNN 24/7 and seeing crazy everywhere. You realize they are showing extremes on either side and the majority of us in the middle are like totally living life and happy.

Its the internet. Half the things people say are just to try annoy someone

Admittedly what I know of this is the tropes and such, I'm not exactly in these deep man conversations where they discuss these things.

A good example is picking sports sides -
Guys get outright told you are not good enough. If your best friend was picking sides for sport & the person he hates most was a good player and you are the worst player, that guys getting picked first and you are getting picked last, every time. The difference is a girl would hold that against the other. Guys go to themselves 'well I am a pretty shit player, so its my fault' & get on with the game. If you cry or get upset about it, you will get laughed at. as the saying goes 'suck it up princess'.

 

[tanstaafl]

as the saying goes 'suck it up princess'.

I've always been partial to 'Suck it up, Buttercup'.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

I've always been partial to 'Suck it up, Buttercup'.

That is probably the more politically correct way of saying it haha

 

[Jaike]

Oh fuck, so much historical craziness from urine gollum. I need a joint, and it's still Thursday.

And hellohello95zone is a tree now.

Dude.
Where did I claim effectiveness of birth control?
You keep moving the goal posts.

AGAIN. It was you who said:


Yes, historically birth control WAS A FUCKING THING.

Now you're arguing effectiveness - which is moving your original argument. Whether it was effective 1% or 99% of the time. It was used.

Hell, the modern condom is about 90% effective. It was used correctly more often, it would be even higher.

But both are/were used for birth control.

And that is only ONE example of birth control that WAS A FUCKING THING for over 5,000 years.

This is true. Birth control, not very effective and not very safe, and often with a trade off between safety and effectiveness, has been a historical thing for millennia. But people did try, even if it was sometimes completely ineffective quackery, and sometimes the methods were effective to a point.

I don't recommend using science journals for this, but here their answer was acceptable.

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It will take some time because I have to go find and dig out an actual book, was a very dense read but was basically on the tribes pre classic greece focused on the gods (specifically the origins of the greek gods). It was on how they became a pantheon, i.e. which tribes had which gods and being polytheistic when they conquered each other that didn't mean you had 'the god' it just meant yours was bigger so you put the conquered tribes god in the pecking order & attributed certain things to them (still a god after all, dont want to piss one of them off).

Its by its nature vague because its oral traditions from a time that were then recorded in ancient times. Its a speculation within the book but I was just using it as a highlight to contrast birth control between now and then

I think I'd be pretty skeptical about that book with the little I know about Indo-European mythologies and pre-classical Greek history... Mycenians had most classical Greek gods, the newer ones of the Olympian pantheon were imports from Anatolia, and several Indo-European mythologies have a pantheon with 3 important male gods and a sky father as the chief god, with Zeus (Pater), Dyaus pitar and Jupiter all as the same name in different language families.

It fits the later imperial eras (Hellenistic, Roman) much better than the pre-classical or even tribal Greeks.

But I'll wait.

I can't say I agree, especially considering the fact that there's more than one type of Netorare. I've seen (this is not an exhaustive list) :

- Woman cheats on man (man doesn't know, finds out and doesn't like it)
- Woman cheats on man (man doesn't know, finds out and does like it)
- Woman cheats on man because man asked her to, man doesn't like it in the end - note, this isn't netorase.
- Woman cheats on man because man asked her to, man enjoys it - note, this isn't netorase.

If you want to maintain that none of those involve any agency from the woman in the scenario then I think you're wrong and that not all games are alike. Similarly to how you can have non-NTR games where women have no agency and are just used as sex puppets for the main character a similar situation can happen in NTR games, but that's not always the case.

What do you mean when you say netorare? I can't even tell if your evidence is relevant to what I consider netorare. VNDB's definition is close to what I mean.

Worth stressing the "usually"s there - not covering "any agency" tho:

Netorare is fundamentally a pseudo-tragedy arc where the antagonist's target, usually a woman, is stripped of any agency and used as a trophy to hurt someone else, so it's usually the idea that "in patriarchy women aren't they other team, they're the ball" taken to an absurd extreme.

First of all, I laid out the basic type of the plot there and linked it to the cultural force that shaped the genre. And just because that stuff you mention exists doesn't mean it impacts the overall genre much.

It's kinda like saying because many women work in formal jobs, the labour market is equal now.

Or that because of Obergefell v. Hodges LGBT+ people have equal access to marriage in America now.

Both are obviously false.

What matters is what's dominant, what shapes the overall genre and what creates the norm. It's about the underlying, shaping structure on the one hand, and the small details as part of the experience on the other hand.

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is helpful, it indicates more than half of the VNs it categorises into "NTR types" have NTR type B and C. These are the types with explicit sexual abuse as part of the plot. Do I think all NTR type A isn't patriarchal? Of course not, though some have more agency for the "target" and some likely are more muted in how they're patriarchal.

I admit my use of "agency" was vague there, tho. But I don't see "automatically succumbs to bigger dick" as agency, it's often the sex as mind wiper trope you saw in games like WVM too.