Steam moving forward with plans to allow explicit games

GuyFreely

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I guess I'm slightly less interested in whether current games get onto Steam as I am about new games coming about because of the Steam changes. I don't think there will be any huge market shift away from Patreon right now. I would imagine games would either use Patreon side-by-side with an "early access" model or wait until the game is complete and push it out onto Steam. I think Steam will get flooded with crappy explicit games just as every other genre has been flooded with crap. There is a glimmer of hope that people with actual development backgrounds create something of a higher caliber than current offerings (no offense). Many of the games we have now are fan-made essentially, "indie" might be pushing it.
 

anne O'nymous

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The matter is a complex one, of course, [...]
I said nothing more than that.
According to the thoughts behind the Law, you are right, it shouldn't be criminal if there's no offense ; as well as it would go against the constitution if someone tried. But you gave too much power to the court, not enough to common sense, and somehow forgot that all of this is relative.
What I mean is that, in the whole history of a country, you'll not found this many judges ready to force the Law to change. They'll go as I said, using the fact that nobody was able to clearly prove that "this" fall under the law, instead of saying that it's the law itself that shouldn't or can't apply here.
In the same time, the society evolve whatever the Law itself follow this evolution or not. That's where common sense take place, not conducting "this" face to the justice because, despite what say the Law, there's no need to do it nowadays. As for the relativity, it apply because the Law of today is the inheritance of the whole history of the country. What was offensive in the past isn't necessarily what is offensive nowadays.

And that's where the example of criminalized homosexuality serve as good counter example of the theory. When you look closer at it, among the 38 countries where it's still a crime to be homosexual, around ten of them do not apply the sentence anymore ; whatever because the homosexuals aren't prosecuted nowadays, or because, like it was for the US, it's indirectly criminalized ; "Well, you said that they practice sodomy/oral sex, but that's all, you said it, you didn't proved it". Justice do not change the Law, just the way they apply it, as well as the reason why they do it.
As for the offense part, there isn't. I think most of modern people agree with this. Whatever it's directly criminalized or not, there no offense in being homosexual nor there's offense practicing sodomy or oral sex. But it's nowadays view of what is offensive. If you look back at the time where the law was wrote, it's was either an offense to God (sex is for reproduction of the specie), for the country health (it's in 1990 only that homosexuality was removed from the official list of decease). Or for any other reason that would be seen as stupid nowadays, but was perfectly legit at when the law was wrote.

All this apply by example to depiction of illegal subjects, especially the one that goes, or was going in the past, against morale. Back in times, kids didn't had money on there own, nor the idea to buy things by themselves. This mean that laws forbidding to sell, extended to "expose" because they wander in places they weren't going in the past while wanting to buy something else, "this or that" to underage people are in fact recent ; don't take my words on it, but most of them should have less than 50 years. So when, a century ago (or more), it was decided that "this" (incest, bestiality, whatever) is illegal, the law was wrote to include depiction of it. It was their way at this time to prevent exposition of underage people to the act itself in all the possible ways. And when the times come to write a law forbidding to sell and/or expose underage people to "this", most of the time nobody thought that it imply a change that make it a good idea to also rewrite the law banning the said "this".
And when they thought about it, they can have forgot part of the many laws covering the subject. By example, in many countries it's illegal to expose underage people to pornography. That's, more or less, what say the law. They, when it's time to write the law, someone can have thought that they also need to change the law regarding this part of pornography, that one either, oh and don't forget this one... And everybody could have forgot that bestiality is also pornography. This leading to a global Law allowing depiction of any sexual content... except bestiality.

In conclusion, those laws we inherited from the history of our own country still apply nowadays. They can be changed, but there's so many laws and so more important things to change before them, that nobody really care to do it. Imagine your government saying that your law regarding incest is stupid and that it should be made fully legal or fully illegal. I'm sure that you'll hear people saying something like, "what the fuck, it's what you think should be done first ? Have you really seen the state of the country ?"
Most of the time people don't care because they don't ask for justice when they aren't offended, whatever say the Law. And when people feel offended, it's the "offender" which just comply, because he don't want to face justice for something so futile. In the end, the law don't change because it seem to bother nobody that it stay like this.
 
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Ignazzio

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I've definitely played japanese games with as little if not less to them than Dreams of Desire. I agree that DmD might have issues, but those, as I've said before, are more likely to fall behind the underage problem, as 2 of the girls are definitely loli, and the only reason D isn't is because she's got gigantic unrealistic breasts. I agree that it might be a while for that. The US obscenity laws are a problem. And places like the UK are even worse. So yeah, certain games won't make the swap, but if honestly, if they're a basic framework built around a fetish and not a fully realized game, is that really even a loss?
Yeah, there are such games in Japan as well. But the case is that they have enough decent games to completely take over any platform. That's not an issue for me as I find them superior in that regard but our devs have to think what they are creating. It's not really a loss to lose such games but even framework works for horny people:p Like seriously, which game here isn't based around fetish and has actual plotline? DoD - guy got power to fuck anyone so he fucks his family, DMD - guy meets his daughter so he wants to fuck her and all her friends, BB - guy is living with his family so he wants to fuck anything that moves etc. There are actually very few games that have enough text to at least hide it (Babysitter, A Wife And Mother, Dual Family) but they're also built around the very same thing. That's an issue with most of our games - they have very little value as a games.
 

Benn Swagger

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I would love to see in the future of ...
1. Incest, rape, bestial, non-consent sex could be allowed ... which probably don't.
2. Steam users get conned by developer who Abandoned their game.
3. Steam users can accept "monthly" update release.
4. Developer abusing Steam's Alpha/Beta system.
5. If any of games can finished & sold. Because current developers being spoiled by donation system.
 

DarthSeduction

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Yeah, there are such games in Japan as well. But the case is that they have enough decent games to completely take over any platform. That's not an issue for me as I find them superior in that regard but our devs have to think what they are creating. It's not really a loss to lose such games but even framework works for horny people:p Like seriously, which game here isn't based around fetish and has actual plotline? DoD - guy got power to fuck anyone so he fucks his family, DMD - guy meets his daughter so he wants to fuck her and all her friends, BB - guy is living with his family so he wants to fuck anything that moves etc. There are actually very few games that have enough text to at least hide it (Babysitter, A Wife And Mother, Dual Family) but they're also built around the very same thing. That's an issue with most of our games - they have very little value as a games.
Mine, Wicked Choices, Depraved Awakening, Long Live the Princess, Coceter Chronicles. Visual Novel's aren't the same as other games, but they are still games, just like things like Kings Quest and The Legend of Monkey Island are games. They may not be your favorite type of game, and that's fine, but seriously, I'm so tired of people making the "they have little value as games" argument. No, we aren't making hack n slashes or traditional RPGs or etc, but our game's aren't built around a central conflict of violence, well... actually all the one's I listed are, but they handle it differently. And that's fine. We don't need porn games to be based around mechanics like Call of Duty, in fact, I imagine that would be really bad as it would almost certainly be used to justify the "hero always gets the girl" trope that has made so many young boys think that all they have to do to "earn" a woman is be a nice guy.

In the future, can we explore having deeper games with porn in them? Like an explicitly pornographic take on something like the Witcher or Cyberpunk? Absolutely, but lets be honest, the west isn't ready to see Geralt's dick yet, let alone have pornographic level sexual content.
 

Ignazzio

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Mine, Wicked Choices, Depraved Awakening, Long Live the Princess, Coceter Chronicles. Visual Novel's aren't the same as other games, but they are still games, just like things like Kings Quest and The Legend of Monkey Island are games. They may not be your favorite type of game, and that's fine, but seriously, I'm so tired of people making the "they have little value as games" argument. No, we aren't making hack n slashes or traditional RPGs or etc, but our game's aren't built around a central conflict of violence, well... actually all the one's I listed are, but they handle it differently. And that's fine. We don't need porn games to be based around mechanics like Call of Duty, in fact, I imagine that would be really bad as it would almost certainly be used to justify the "hero always gets the girl" trope that has made so many young boys think that all they have to do to "earn" a woman is be a nice guy.

In the future, can we explore having deeper games with porn in them? Like an explicitly pornographic take on something like the Witcher or Cyberpunk? Absolutely, but lets be honest, the west isn't ready to see Geralt's dick yet, let alone have pornographic level sexual content.
I highly admire Visual Novels. But games you mentioned as well as vast majority of games on Patreon are called as such just from a lack of other terms. Our market is small and incomperable with Japanese but when it comes to VNs difference is so vast it's sad. From western games there are some gems like Katawa Shoujo but our games simply have no plotlines. RPGM games are not VNs and games with VN gameplay style have no purpose except for sex. Pure renpy games are VNs in their core but they have nothing to offer except for cgs and sex due to the way they are written. Remove sex from game and see if it can exists on its own to see if it has any value as a game. DMD, DoD, GGGB, or even Babysitter (which I like a lot) without sex have no plotline, no character development nor anything. Very few games here have. Remove sex from Rance and it's still hell of a fun, remove it from vast majority of VNs in Japan and they're still very playable. I don't compare our games with mainstream titles but with another market that achieved great things and created erotic games which are so popular they are basically mainstream there. West isn't ready for pornographic level sexual content that's for sure but it's hard to say whether our market can offer anything more than that. I hope so but I have my doubts
 

DarthSeduction

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even Babysitter (which I like a lot) without sex have no plotline, no character development nor anything.
That is factually incorrect. First of all. A story doesn't have to be about more than the romance, but lets be perfectly clear, there's a lot more going in in Babysitter than just the romantic plotline, especially with what's happened in the last few updates. To be completely honest, your arguments always come off as elitist. Nothing is ever good enough for you. I don't know why I even bother trying to convince you of anything, because no matter what, it's inferior to your expectations.
 

Ignazzio

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That is factually incorrect. First of all. A story doesn't have to be about more than the romance, but lets be perfectly clear, there's a lot more going in in Babysitter than just the romantic plotline, especially with what's happened in the last few updates. To be completely honest, your arguments always come off as elitist. Nothing is ever good enough for you. I don't know why I even bother trying to convince you of anything, because no matter what, it's inferior to your expectations.
Objective truth is what matters. Babysitter just as most vns here skips from teasing to another sexual activities. It has clear objective and clear border points. It is much better in terms of writing than most games here but it's hard to consider it a novel in any sense. Romance is a main theme of most Japanese VNs but romance-based VN is different from porn. Not that I mind it cuz I really like Babysitter as it is. You don't need to convice me to anything as I just shared my predictions on Steam situation. Time will tell.

Would be really cool to see Mangagamer on Steam as that could bring a lot of movement out there.
 

DarthSeduction

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Objective truth is what matters. Babysitter just as most vns here skips from teasing to another sexual activities. It has clear objective and clear border points. It is much better in terms of writing than most games here but it's hard to consider it a novel in any sense. Romance is a main theme of most Japanese VNs but romance-based VN is different from porn. Not that I mind it cuz I really like Babysitter as it is. You don't need to convice me to anything as I just shared my predictions on Steam situation. Time will tell.

Would be really cool to see Mangagamer on Steam as that could bring a lot of movement out there.
Yeah right, there's no subplot involving a the movement of large amounts of contraband by the antagonists in the story, right. Objectively speaking, you're ignoring things that don't support your viewpoint. Yes, the game is an adult game with multiple, gradually increasing sexual encounters, that's not an indictment on it. Is the sex the main plot of the game? Absolutely. Does that make it an inferior story to one where the sex is secondary? No. Your "objective" measure is flawed in that your criteria for what makes a game quality to you is subjective.
 

Ignazzio

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Yeah right, there's no subplot involving a the movement of large amounts of contraband by the antagonists in the story, right. Objectively speaking, you're ignoring things that don't support your viewpoint. Yes, the game is an adult game with multiple, gradually increasing sexual encounters, that's not an indictment on it. Is the sex the main plot of the game? Absolutely. Does that make it an inferior story to one where the sex is secondary? No. Your "objective" measure is flawed in that your criteria for what makes a game quality to you is subjective.
It's a thread about Steam. My subjective opinion on what is objective is all about what might be considered as VN on a mainstream platform. Sex based story is not inferior but different than non sex based one. But for mainstream sex based story is a porn and the other might be erotic or with erotic elements. You know it's terribly emotional to pick on someone in such a manner, especially when I didn't attack or reffered to you in any way. There is no point in arguing.
Let's get back to Steam issue.
 

Lunas

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This is a very good sign but Im still wondering how successful explicit steam game will be. I certainly dont want my steam friends to logon and see Im currently jaggin off to Dating my Daughter
Just remember to turn off those notifications:p
Hopimg for it real hard. Though I think the biggest issues will be pricing. Most games produced here are worth around 5$. But i doubt creatora that ask their patreons for 20 to 30$ a month to play the newest version will be OK with selling their entire game for 5. And we have to keep in kind that AAA titles are 60$
I think they would be happy in the long run as 5 dollars by millions of perverts is more than 20-30 by at best thousands of perverts. Besides lots of rpgm from here censored are already on steam selling for up to 59
 

Agent HK47

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This is a very good sign but Im still wondering how successful explicit steam game will be. I certainly dont want my steam friends to logon and see Im currently jaggin off to Dating my Daughter
I feel you on this one. I have long wished for a feature, in which we can hide games from our steam library. No, I don't mean the usual definition, where you simply don't want to see listed in your steam library. I want a way to hide games from specific groups (friends, everyone, ect.), so that my profile will not show any evidence of me buying a game, playing it, or showing when I am ingame.
Also, while we are at it: Give us a way to play in ghost mode, where we are shown as online/away when we are ingame, so we can enjoy playing games, even when Eugene is online and thinks you are the most awesome person and earth and desperately wants to play games with you, even though you can't stand him, but don't feel like bothering with removing your own cousin, cause it will be awkward during the next family reunion.
 
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DarthSeduction

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It's a thread about Steam. My subjective opinion on what is objective is all about what might be considered as VN on a mainstream platform. Sex based story is not inferior but different than non sex based one. But for mainstream sex based story is a porn and the other might be erotic or with erotic elements. You know it's terribly emotional to pick on someone in such a manner, especially when I didn't attack or reffered to you in any way. There is no point in arguing.
Let's get back to Steam issue.
I'm picking on you by tearing apart your fallacious argument? You're right, it is about the Steam Issue, and your fallacy doesn't hold water. They aren't creating new infrastructure so that they can include games that happen to include sex. They're creating it so that they can include porn. I've already made this argument. Its not like Patreon, which is pretty explicit that they don't allow porn but are afraid to actually cross the line and go full HBO with it, it's a company that's policy up until now has been HBO with it, and is now expanding to include porn. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. Maybe it's because I'm not a cynic, but I read that they're looking to include anything so long as it doesn't violate the law as pretty clear that it doesn't matter where the story is focused. The only debate that we should be having is whether or not their interpretation of legality will be the hardline stance against things that are obcene, or the relatively grey interpretation that operates in the grey.
 

dspeed

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Personally believe that this is a bad idea for players, Valve and adult games creators.

Player for the aforementioned privacy issues.

Valve because if they think they have problems regulating the quality of their marketplace now, wait until they have to deal with the low effort porn games.

Adult game creators because it doesn't provide an ongoing revenue stream such as a Patreon and instead a one off refundable purchase. If you think of Big Brother for example, there's probably people who willingly paid hundreds of dollars for that over the months they subbed. A cost they wouldn't just send up front.

This means that you'd have to produce a saleable game before you put it on Steam, or lose those big first week sales, and that would drive down the experimentation in the industry.

One of the reasons I like the adult games market at the moment (outside of the obvious) is that it's a Wild West. Tons of people are making games with all sorts of different fetishes, mechanics, niches, mixes of genres, etc. Everybody is providing innovation in order to build that uncatered for fanbase that will invest on a Patreon. That exploration of profitability and viability isn't going to happen as much if they are pigeon-holed into the boxes that Steam want them to be
 

GuyFreely

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Man, wouldn't it be terrible if devs had to focus on making complete playable games instead of milking patrons for months?

I'm half kidding. I think there is something to be said for incentivizing devs to make finished products. I've seen several games on here that seem to be trying to squeeze their patron's by drip feeding content. They tease the parts of the game they know people want most and take a very long time to deliver it. That may be a cynical view, but I don't think it's completely off base. I think the general idea is that something like Steam would offer volume. So the per player revenue goes down, but the total revenue goes up (hopefully).
 

Babus

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To be honest, as a dev I'm excited about Steam opening that gate. Even if Patreon can provide me sort of a consistent flux of money, it gives me the impression that I can't invest a lot of time into a game or the patron numbers are going down. So I either have to publish small games all the time or a lot of iterations of the same game, which kinda feels tiring in the end.

Also, Steam moves far bigger numbers than Patreon, so probably it's a lot more profitable. I'm not sure of this though. They say SteamSpy is kinda deceitful.
 

Ignazzio

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Seems like something finally moved:
In short: first erotic, fully uncensored VN is coming to Steam. To be fair it looks cheap but it's always a start. It should inflict some reaction on a whole market if it's gonna work well. I damn hope for an uncensored versions of Fate and other top VNs we have already on Steam. It's a shame to buy a game in pieces.
 

OhWee

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Just here sharing another link (basically same story, courtesy Ars Technica).


I still prefer GOG over Steam (most/all GOG titles are DRM Free) but I get that Steam is popular with a lot of people that don't care about the whole DRM thing.
 

GuyFreely

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Just here sharing another link (basically same story, courtesy Ars Technica).


I still prefer GOG over Steam (most/all GOG titles are DRM Free) but I get that Steam is popular with a lot of people that don't care about the whole DRM thing.
It's hard to argue with Steam's exposure factor. Looking at a couple of random sources for numbers, it looks like peak concurrent daily users are around 14 million and monthly active user numbers approach 70 million. Granted there is some insane number of games on there, but with a potentially new genre (explicit adult games) opening up, there is some room there for small devs. Even if 1% of 50 million users want explicit games and 1% of them look at your game's store page, that's still 5,000 views. I have no idea how realistic that is, but just saying it could be a big deal.
 
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