Recommending Story-first games

5.00 star(s) 8 Votes

noping123

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jun 24, 2021
1,498
2,436
Do they even do anything in the game?. I always picked the stamina one because it's the fastest :p Same for the beach volleyball. Seems like you can't lose no matter how hard you try.

Yes they do lol.

The ending to Ch6 is basically defined by the "workout" minigame (your stats determine which path you get at the ch6 ending - there's like 7 ending variants, 3 of which are decided by your stats). Volleyball is "hard" to lose intentionally (i'm actually going to bump up the difficulty in the next release, but I wanted to release it as "easy" to see how things went). If you ALWAYS do stamina, you get path #2 and not path #1 or 3. (which variant of path 2 depends on other choices.)

For volleyball... if you're on Nikki's path, losing makes you miss a scene. If you're on Erins path, it's irrelevant, and if you're on mary's path it's either irrelevant, OR losing entirely cuts you off from a path.

There's also a skeeball minigame which doesn't really mean much (it just changes a few bits of dialogue, and like 1 or 2 renders), that IS impossible to lose because I messed up the code a bit, but I'm fixing that one too when I make volleyball more difficult.
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,142
14,157
The thing about self-inserting is that it tends to attract some weirdly egocentric individuals. There isn't anything wrong with self-inserting per se. Some games like CYOA or cRPGs could be played that way, although they are generally designed around role-playing. When it comes to the average porn game, it's incredibly rare to have such a blank slate MC that self inserting makes sense, but you could still try I guess.

Self-inserting: "This character is gonna become me."
Role-playing: "I am gonna become this character."

The thing is, there is a breed of self inserters that I like to call "obligate self inserters." They can only play porn games by self inserting as the male MC. I mean, that's fine in principle. You can consume media however you like. Unfortunately, these obligate self inserters tend to have some comorbidities. Not all of them, mind you, but probably an alarming percentage of them. The biggest comorbidity being that their world view is absurdly egocentric.

Getting into some armchair psych, I can definitely see how their mind operates. Being an obligate self inserter, thinking the world revolves around them, being unable to consider the view points of others, being an entitled twat, and as expected, being a harem lover. These qualities of a person have a pretty high association rate.

It makes sense. Someone who can only self insert would have a higher than average likelihood of being egocentric. Someone who is egocentric will not be able to understand that there are other ways to play games. In fact, you very often see statements like, "The whole point of playing porn games is to self insert as the MC and live out a fantasy life where all the cool shit happens." They cannot conceptualize, or at least acknowledge, that this is just their way of playing and that the game wasn't specifically made to pander to this playstyle. Obviously, they need harems because that is a common dream of a... certain... ahem... group of individuals. Entitlement and selfishness obviously stems from their general egocentric disposition.

This mindset is so ingrained in them that they take personal offense when the MC goes through hardships or loses in any way. Basically anything that deviates from the usual safe-space harems. They don't care about the author's intent at all. In fact, they don't even care about the genre. If it doesn't tell that same derivative story, it is a shit game that deserves trashing.

It might be great if we could just look at it as an interesting phenomenon, but the damage these entitled twats inflict on this site and the western porn gaming scene in general is actually quite a problem.
 

boobsrcool

Active Member
Apr 1, 2022
934
769
The thing about self-inserting is that it tends to attract some weirdly egocentric individuals. There isn't anything wrong with self-inserting per se. Some games like CYOA or cRPGs could be played that way, although they are generally designed around role-playing. When it comes to the average porn game, it's incredibly rare to have such a blank slate MC that self inserting makes sense, but you could still try I guess.

Self-inserting: "This character is gonna become me."
Role-playing: "I am gonna become this character."

The thing is, there is a breed of self inserters that I like to call "obligate self inserters." They can only play porn games by self inserting as the male MC. I mean, that's fine in principle. You can consume media however you like. Unfortunately, these obligate self inserters tend to have some comorbidities. Not all of them, mind you, but probably an alarming percentage of them. The biggest comorbidity being that their world view is absurdly egocentric.

Getting into some armchair psych, I can definitely see how their mind operates. Being an obligate self inserter, thinking the world revolves around them, being unable to consider the view points of others, being an entitled twat, and as expected, being a harem lover. These qualities of a person have a pretty high association rate.

It makes sense. Someone who can only self insert would have a higher than average likelihood of being egocentric. Someone who is egocentric will not be able to understand that there are other ways to play games. In fact, you very often see statements like, "The whole point of playing porn games is to self insert as the MC and live out a fantasy life where all the cool shit happens." They cannot conceptualize, or at least acknowledge, that this is just their way of playing and that the game wasn't specifically made to pander to this playstyle. Obviously, they need harems because that is a common dream of a... certain... ahem... group of individuals. Entitlement and selfishness obviously stems from their general egocentric disposition.

This mindset is so ingrained in them that they take personal offense when the MC goes through hardships or loses in any way. Basically anything that deviates from the usual safe-space harems. They don't care about the author's intent at all. In fact, they don't even care about the genre. If it doesn't tell that same derivative story, it is a shit game that deserves trashing.

It might be great if we could just look at it as an interesting phenomenon, but the damage these entitled twats inflict on this site and the western porn gaming scene in general is actually quite a problem.
settle down lol
 

Vasin

Member
Nov 20, 2018
264
322
not on the first page, didn't read others
https://f95zone.to/threads/my-new-memories-v0-3-killer7.85280/

this is good
P.S. actually good music
I couldn't get over all the unnecessary verbose descriptions and the incredibly successful, handsome, generous protagonist with a perfect family. Family, no members of which look or act their age. I totally believe in 18yo sleeping with their parents. The whole game gave me loli bait impression so I dropped it.
 

Kokamvajag

New Member
Oct 7, 2022
9
8
I couldn't get over all the unnecessary verbose descriptions and the incredibly successful, handsome, generous protagonist with a perfect family. Family, no members of which look or act their age. I totally believe in 18yo sleeping with their parents. The whole game gave me loli bait impression so I dropped it.
well, maybe you are right, but i think this is more interesting to read than usual "blah blah blah - here is a blowjob'' or something in that way
 

fitgirlbestgirl

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2017
1,141
4,286
not on the first page, didn't read others
https://f95zone.to/threads/my-new-memories-v0-3-killer7.85280/

this is good
P.S. actually good music
A Killer7 game in the Story-first games thread? Bruh. My New Family is the absolute definition of the trash-tier cookie cutter harem game without any hint of conflict, plot or character development. Playing it made me actually lose brain cells and despair for humanity, considering how many people think this utter crap is worthwhile entertainment.
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
613
1,054
A Killer7 game in the Story-first games thread? Bruh. My New Family is the absolute definition of the trash-tier cookie cutter harem game without any hint of conflict, plot or character development. Playing it made me actually lose brain cells and despair for humanity, considering how many people think this utter crap is worthwhile entertainment.
I am absolutely going to steal 'trash tier harem game' as a descriptive phrase, with 'loss of brain cells' and 'existential despair' as the clinical discription of symptoms associated with said games. Possibly fappable, but with a high risk of post-fap depression and introspection. :ROFLMAO:

One clarification, though -- the only 'official' list of story-first recommendations is jufot's OP, which he updates assiduously. All sorts of games are discussed in this thread, as is plenty of other stuff -- from plot devices to a dev's writing challenges -- and everyone has their personal preferences. But jufot's list, which is difficult to get on and easy to fall off, largely reflects the consensus on recs.
 

Jaike

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
1,415
4,927
I sometimes find myself actually wishing that female-protagonist games faced more self-inserter restrictions. May be a case of "careful what you wish for", but it could crack down on a few of their worst tropes. Think RIL games and stuff.

A Killer7 game in the Story-first games thread? Bruh. My New Family is the absolute definition of the trash-tier cookie cutter harem game without any hint of conflict, plot or character development. Playing it made me actually lose brain cells and despair for humanity, considering how many people think this utter crap is worthwhile entertainment.
I never played MNF so I personally have no opinion on it but I see you've given it a pretty detailed review. Hot damn. :ROFLMAO: I'd joke "tell us what you really think", but is it still a joking matter?

Boring, repetitive tripe that somehow manages to turn a taboo fetish like incest into a dull Disney movie that will never fucking end until you want to kill yourself to escape the soul-crushingly saccharine wholesomeness of it all.

The story has no stakes or conflicts, every woman wants the MC's dick and falls madly in love as soon as she lays eyes on him. Every girl is immediately okay with sharing the protagonist and never experiences even a hint of jealousy, no matter how many family members, friends, or random passersby the MC sticks his dick in.

To drive the point home further that we have firmly left any semblance of realism behind us, they all make sure to embarrassingly declare that, of course, they would only ever fuck him, because he is just so perfect that even a minute of his time and a good dicking here and there means he's the only man they'll ever need. Also, why not have kids with the creep you've known for a couple of days who's fucking half the town?

But that at least means there's plenty of girls and sex, that's good, right? No, even that is mostly boring, there is no real sense of progression or chase and 95% of the sex scenes are as vanilla as the lame plot.

The MC is
Simp Jesus and you will spend half the game listening to him apologizing, talking about his feelings, and telling every woman in the game how much he loves and respects her. Wow, that's so hot and kinky. If he's not busy prostrating himself before his current "girlfriend" of the hour, he is hard at work solving everybody's problems by being just so fucking great and attentive and having a magic dick that can cure cancer and solve all of society's ills.

Round it all out with some of the worst illusion of choice I've ever seen and characters that immediately discard most traces of their personality once you've managed to get your dick in their hole and all you have left is an incredibly long procession of mind-numbingly boring "good guy" and "loving girlfriend" dialogue and repetitive softcore pornography.
... with a high risk of post-fap depression and introspection. :ROFLMAO:
So, like Lady in Blue? :p
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
613
1,054
Of course it is consensus since the jury only contains one member: jufot :sneaky:
Well, yes... although he _does_ listen to reason... unless your empirical case for a game crashes in to his notorious anti-college game bias (NACGB).

It's a serious condition, and I've been urging him to get his NACGB treated for years... sadly, without avail. The first step to a cure, old friend, is acknowledging the problem. :cool:
 

bacienvu88

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2021
1,714
3,161
Well, yes... although he _does_ listen to reason... unless your empirical case for a game crashes in to his notorious anti-college game bias (NACGB).

It's a serious condition, and I've been urging him to get his NACGB treated for years... sadly, without avail. The first step to a cure, old friend, is acknowledging the problem. :cool:
And there is of course nothing stopping anyone from maintaining their own list.

Speaking of college games, there is a new one Elite Garden that was released yesterday. On plus side is MC has a sister, mom and brother which he has good non-sexual relationships with. Also no harem. Fairly good for a first release, but it is a pretty cookie-cutter coming-of-age-college-game. On the other hand Summer's Gone is on the list and that is also close to being a cookie-cutter coming-of-age-college-game even if it is good.

EDIT: And the why-cant-i-bang-sis crowd is in full swing already. :(
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
613
1,054
I never played MNF so I personally have no opinion on it but I see you've given it a pretty detailed review. Hot damn. :ROFLMAO: I'd joke "tell us what you really think", but is it still a joking matter?
"Simp Jesus" is gold as well. Gold. Seriously. [My wife read your post over my shoulder and immediately started to call me simp Jesus!] :D:eek::ROFLMAO:

I haven't played this game, but it sounds like a doozy... a bit like WVM without the OTT super alpha MC. I'm not sure whether that's an improvement! :D
 

fitgirlbestgirl

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2017
1,141
4,286
I never played MNF so I personally have no opinion on it but I see you've given it a pretty detailed review. Hot damn. :ROFLMAO: I'd joke "tell us what you really think", but is it still a joking matter?
It wasn't fun to play, so I had to get my fun by tearing it apart. I don't often review games I absolutely hate, but this one was bad on so many different levels, yet for some reason has a large fanbase. That's always added motivation to tell people on the internet that they're wrong!
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
613
1,054
I realized that this thread is mostly filled with ren'py VNs. Any idea on a similar thread with more japanese-styled game like Black souls, Pronant Symphony, Demons Roots, etc.?
I think these sorts of games are all worthy of consideration for jufot's list -- just put them up in this thread, and I'm sure you'd get a good reception. My first encounter with erotic games was with Japanese bishōjo, which led me into other forms of mature games, including the darker genres you refer to.

Can't speak for jufot, of course, but the only reason why there aren't more Japanese games on the list is that he needs more recs to review.
 
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ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
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It is way too porny for jufot's list, but I find that game curious. It bored me, despite having many elements that I found appealing, such as realistic LI interactions (when they found out about each other, for example, they dumped the MC).

The main problem is the story. The stakes involved usually felt very, very low. Yeah, the MC was going a bit off piste professionally and trying to start a band, but his father and sister are super rich.

If the MC fails, there is a feather bed waiting for him. He was hardly a working class Paul McCartney scraping by in late-1950s Liverpool, or Kurt Cobain living by a thread in the depressed logging town of Aberdeen, WA... he's more like an even richer, more annoying Marcus Mumford.
I have to admit I have a soft spot for Become a Rockstar. The writing is very weak in places and the start of the game (with the MC creeping on Selina) is rocky, but it eventually cleans up its act and creates some surprisingly compelling character dynamics. The visuals are downright gorgeous in places, too, which helps.

I think the problem isn't a lack of stakes per se. Just because the MC has a theoretically cushy lifestyle to fall back on doesn't mean it'd be a painless outcome. Being a rock star is the MC's dream; going back to the family means having to give that up. Moreover, he'd also have to toe his father's line going forward, effectively abandoning all the non-conformist quirks that make him who he is. The stakes are very real... on paper. In reality, however, very little of that danger makes it through to the player.

The MC is preposterously confident and exceedingly laid back, which already filters out a lot of the threat simply due to his rose-colored glasses. On top of that, the story structure gives no weight to the obstacles that do manage to cross our path. The MC's dad takes away the band's practice space and the band instantly gets a better practice space. Dad hires the MC's ex to sabotage the band, but she decides not to without the MC having to lift a finger. The MC is supposedly the black sheep of his family, yet Julia (the family member we see most often) is his close friend and ally. The band comes together automatically with no real effort on our part, and the only professional setback they suffer is a last-minute contract dispute that is brought up *and* resolved in the final chapter. We hear often that dating within the band isn't a good idea, but that turns out to be just another paper tiger: dating Lisa and Jade is not only possible, it's the only polyamorous option that won't blow up in your face. The MC's rise to glory is pretty much bulletproof... unless you try to sleep around outside the band. Then you'd better be on your best behavior. :confused:

When you get down to it, there's really only one serious threat in the entire game: Julia nearly dying from a stray bullet. That's a major curveball and it's treated the with appropriate gravity. It really does shake up the otherwise unflappable MC. The problem is that by the time it happens the MC has already patched things up with the rest of his family so the crisis is entirely self contained. Before you know it Julia's out of danger and the MC can go on with business as usual.

If the game had been restructured so that the MC's father was a genuine obstacle to the band coming together and he remained one up to the point Julia was shot, the story could have benefited immensely. Not only would that make the band's early success feel far more earned, but now the MC's darkest hour would reinforce the family drama rather than supplant it. Without Julia at his side, would the MC be able to make peace with his family? Would he even want to try? And can he sort that out while still negotiating the band's first contract *and* surviving any fallout from his potential romantic misadventures?

Alas, it was not to be. What we got was still worth playing (IMHO), but the MC's eventual triumph was a foregone conclusion.


Oh man. The amount of "forced content" complaints I got on my first release... hoo boy. I eventually acquiesced on 50% of it (there were 2 instances), but the other half I remained steadfast.... I'm glad I did tbh. (And all it was, was a single sex scene with a mostly disposable character!). And my game is most definitely NOT even close to harem. (In fact, if you try to play harem? You straight up get murdered. Game over, try again!)

It's so odd. People insist on being able to fuck literally everything that moves in the game, but simultaneously demand they be the ONLY one do to so, WHILE demanding that they always be given a choice whether or not to do so.... it's fucking weird is what it is.
In my experience the set of people who insist on being able to opt out of everything is a slightly different subset than those who insist on being able to collect everyone with a vagina for their pokeharem. Still, there's no question it's hard to hit the sweet spot between railroading the player and watering things down to the point the MC is too bland to have reactions at all. There are few things more disengaging than when the MC is drooling of an LI you can't stand, but there's only so much time and effort a dev can spend on a game.

I do think you can get a surprising amount of mileage out of dialog options, though, as long as you structure them carefully. Even if the MC is ultimately required to fulfill the needs of the plot, it can be cathartic to snark at the person/place/situation the player dislikes. If you combine those options with some built-in explanation for why the MC is unhappy, you can simultaneously help establish the MC's personality and how our control can influence it. This works best if you start early in the game so the players will get a sense of what they're likely in for and can learn to embrace it (or drop the game), but it's still a balancing act.

Of course, this isn't a substitute for having meaningful choices, just a way to take the edge off it when choices do need to be forced. You still have to pick those battles carefully. You can't can't please all the people all the time so in the end you need to figure out what's most important about the story you want to tell. Focus on that first and only add deviations from it when time and resources permit. Better to stick to your guns and signal your intent early on so everyone knows where they stand. (Just try not to imply we'll get to make meaningful choices early in the game only to railroad us into forced paths later because you *really* want the game to go a certain way.)

For the record, I enjoyed Alive but I did find the romance paths a bit awkward - particularly Mary's. We learn early on she has a crush on the MC, but we can't act on that crush until later in the game (as apparently the MC never noticed). That strongly suggests the MC doesn't know Mary much better than we do, but the game still requires us to start dating Mary almost immediately after it becomes possible otherwise her path will close. Personally I'd have preferred if we could either return her interest early in the game or if we had more time to consider dating her after the MC finally realizes that's an option. I'm willing to handwave the exceedingly short courtships since this is a game, but it's a lot easier to do that in cases like Nikki or Erin where the MC has only met the girl recently. It's a lot harder for me to buy in a case like Mary where there's a platonic relationship than needs to be revised first; the transition feels way too sudden.

It's not a major problem, and as I said I enjoyed the game. But it did stick with me, so take that for what you think it's worth.
 

noping123

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jun 24, 2021
1,498
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For the record, I enjoyed Alive but I did find the romance paths a bit awkward - particularly Mary's. We learn early on she has a crush on the MC, but we can't act on that crush until later in the game (as apparently the MC never noticed). That strongly suggests the MC doesn't know Mary much better than we do, but the game still requires us to start dating Mary almost immediately after it becomes possible otherwise her path will close. Personally I'd have preferred if we could either return her interest early in the game or if we had more time to consider dating her after the MC finally realizes that's an option. I'm willing to handwave the exceedingly short courtships since this is a game, but it's a lot easier to do that in cases like Nikki or Erin where the MC has only met the girl recently. It's a lot harder for me to buy in a case like Mary where there's a platonic relationship than needs to be revised first; the transition feels way too sudden.

It's a fair criticism, I did worry a few times some things were "moving too fast" - I was trying to balance low dev times and keeping the story relatively short and not letting it balloon too out of control (still ended up much bigger than I had originally wanted, but alas). It's definitely a delicate balance which if I missed it a bit, I'm not too stressed as I'd say I did fairly well for my first time. I have another one I'd like to do after this, but the scope will be much bigger and I won't be so worried about those things, so if I do manage to put it together, I won't be making the same compromises/decisions. If it balloons, it balloons.


That said there wasn't really a "platonic relationship" between Mary and the MC beforehand. She developed a crush on him just from seeing him show up there, but as far as he knew she was just "The girl who works at the coffee shop". Aside from her name he knew... literally nothing about her, and their entire interactions were "Hey large coffee please" "coming right up!" as well as his "You're the best." (which was nothing more than just being polite to his server). I do wonder now if I implied in any way they were more familiar with each other than that.
 
5.00 star(s) 8 Votes