Recommending Story-first games

[_SomeOneElse_]

[..]
Ultimately I see AI as like Wikipedia was to Encyclopedias. It is an inevitable change and too useful of a tool. It is now a matter of regulating it, so that it can be harnessed like any tools that have been developed in modern times like GMO.

OT but nethertheless .. Imho it might seems like it, but there are huge differences in access and transparency.

Wikipedia was and is created by people how contribute and review contributions. Everyone can see the history of chances and when and what was changed. The access is free and if someone can speak (read) more than one language, even more can be accessed or cross referenced. In generell an article reference the sources of it content / claims.

In comparison, the new "AI" tools are created by companies, the training data is selected (often pirated) by the company, so these companies will/can influence how these tools answer to our prompts. It is not transparent what was learned or skipped, changes are hidden if it just a service behind an api in the cloud. Many tools require payment or the payment is the uses of the tool and created/edited data itself. An references to the data that was used to answer our prompts is often not provided / possible.

jm2c

 

[GershGersh]

I might be wrong, but if I understood Prof. Amethyst correctly, Love & Jealousy was a story that popped up while working on a larger project (On the Mountain Top). And in order to clear his mind, he more or less had to write it.
In my opinion, it would have been better to start off by writing a short novel, and then perhaps adding images later. But as an AVN creator with one finished game behind him and a number of supporters that wanted more of the same, the AI images approach was a compromise.

That makes a lot of sense and get's me wondering. This thread is called story first games and i wonder how that works with AVN creation. Do developers start with the story script first and create images around that or start with the images or character designs and write around them. Or maybe a mixture of both? I'm wondering if the really good stories are based on focusing on the story first? I would be curious to hear what the approaches some of the developers in here use and how they find which approach affects the finished work.

 

[Tlaero]

When Mortze and I collaborate, I write the story/text first and he uses it to create the images. Although, in many of the sex scenes, I set the encounter up and then let him create the actual sexual images. Then I go back and narrate them.

On the other hand, when he's working on a solo project, he creates the images first and then goes back and writes the script. (I help out by doing a light edit on the text, and I also handle the programming.)

He's currently far along on his current solo project (Ep2 of his Star Wars game), and I've been writing the script for our next collaboration (Darkness Falls: Signals).

I suspect that this is common. Some people, like me, naturally think in words and some people, like him, naturally think in images.

Tlaero

 

[Finuee]

Situation is similar for me.

I've started with the script for the solo project I'm working in right now. I have done a couple sketches of character designs and some graphic design for the UI, but it's the writing where I'm focused right now.

Once I have at least a definitive outline of the plot and a final draft of the first chapter, I'll start working seriously on the drawings. Meanwhile, I sometimes do a background or character sketch here or there, for the things I've already commited to being in the script. But this is basically in order to rest a bit from the writing and recharge batteries.

 

[realjitter]

Did play My husband's boss...

Well, there's not much to discuss here, imo. Wife turns into a slut at lighning speed while the husband turns, presumably, into a cuckold. Anyway the only slowburn in this game is basically that it's fanbase probably has to wait a couple of updates until they get to see the FMC having gangbangs with all the college boys... Why she would do that?. Idk, good question.... Oh right, of course, because it's a porn game .

For fans of those type of games certainly worth a look, but if you're looking for realism or actual corruption or anthing like that.....

 

[GershGersh]

When Mortze and I collaborate, I write the story/text first and he uses it to create the images. Although, in many of the sex scenes, I set the encounter up and then let him create the actual sexual images. Then I go back and narrate them.

On the other hand, when he's working on a solo project, he creates the images first and then goes back and writes the script. (I help out by doing a light edit on the text, and I also handle the programming.)

He's currently far along on his current solo project (Ep2 of his Star Wars game), and I've been writing the script for our next collaboration (Darkness Falls: Signals).

I suspect that this is common. Some people, like me, naturally think in words and some people, like him, naturally think in images.

Tlaero

Situation is similar for me.

I've started with the script for the solo project I'm working in right now. I have done a couple sketches of character designs and some graphic design for the UI, but it's the writing where I'm focused right now.

Once I have at least a definitive outline of the plot and a final draft of the first chapter, I'll start working seriously on the drawings. Meanwhile, I sometimes do a background or character sketch here or there, for the things I've already commited to being in the script. But this is basically in order to rest a bit from the writing and recharge batteries.

Fascinating! Thank you so much for your insight. Do you ever come across situations where the script just wont translate into images well or that once put into images, it does not have the same impact as when reading through? Or in a similar sense some rendered scene ends up being more, let's say visually poignant and you have to rewrite the script to reflect that? And most important question which is inspired by the previous one- let's say you write something amazing, you know it is, and say you then work on the images for a first chapter draft, and the complete thing ends up turning the initial project idea on its head, and inspires something completely new and maybe even better? Like maybe a rendered side character ends up more appealing than first thought. And if its not too much to ask, how would you deal with that- either continue with the first thought and save the impulse for another project or scrap everything and follow the Gods of chaos? Sorry, i'm a bit obsessed with how different people create.

 

[Tlaero]

There are times where I see the images and change my text as a result. Sometimes it's mundane (I said "left hand" and Mortze rendered it in the right hand). Sometimes I had a mental picture of what's happening but Mortze's actual picture is much better, and I change my text as a result. Sometimes I name an ancillary character, but when I see her, I feel that a different name is better (or, sometimes Mortze suggests a different name). And, sometimes, when Mortze creates the model for a character, she's so compelling that it forces me to make more story for her.

A few examples of that:
Serena in Saving Chloe. She was just supposed to be in one scene, but she was so striking that I added 2 more paths for her in that game and eventually wrote a whole other game for her.

Jen in Life Changes for Keeley. I added her scene late in production because I wanted to balance out the two paths a bit. But I liked the model so much that I brought her into the Elsaverse and made her the eponymous character in Chasing Beth.

Also, when we were getting near the end of Saving Chloe, we started talking about what we'd do next. Mortze sent me the image that plays after the credits, and I liked it so much that it lead entirely to Darkness Falls.

So, you can definitely say that my writing has been inspired by Mortze's work.

However, there have also been times when, for one reason or another, Mortze's image(s) didn't match my text, but I chose not to change the text. The most recent occurrence of that happened in Writing with Tara.

Tlaero

 

[damnedfrog]

There are times where I see the images and change my text as a result. Sometimes it's mundane (I said "left hand" and Mortze rendered it in the right hand). Sometimes I had a mental picture of what's happening but Mortze's actual picture is much better, and I change my text as a result. Sometimes I name an ancillary character, but when I see her, I feel that a different name is better (or, sometimes Mortze suggests a different name). And, sometimes, when Mortze creates the model for a character, she's so compelling that it forces me to make more story for her.

A few examples of that:
Serena in Saving Chloe. She was just supposed to be in one scene, but she was so striking that I added 2 more paths for her in that game and eventually wrote a whole other game for her.

Jen in Life Changes for Keeley. I added her scene late in production because I wanted to balance out the two paths a bit. But I liked the model so much that I brought her into the Elsaverse and made her the eponymous character in Chasing Beth.

Also, when we were getting near the end of Saving Chloe, we started talking about what we'd do next. Mortze sent me the image that plays after the credits, and I liked it so much that it lead entirely to Darkness Falls.

So, you can definitely say that my writing has been inspired by Mortze's work.

However, there have also been times when, for one reason or another, Mortze's image(s) didn't match my text, but I chose not to change the text. The most recent occurrence of that happened in Writing with Tara.

Tlaero

Thank you Tlaero for giving us a glimpse of your creative process.
I suppose being a duo of creators imply other dynamics than for a solo dev.

And thanks GershGersh for being less lazy than myself and asking these questions .

 

[Finuee]

I'm too new as a dev to be able to answer that, as I'm still working on my first game. Tlaero is a beast who's done and finished a bunch of games, their response is what you're looking for. Ask me again when I have updates under my belt and have had to face that decision.

 

[GershGersh]

There are times where I see the images and change my text as a result. Sometimes it's mundane (I said "left hand" and Mortze rendered it in the right hand). Sometimes I had a mental picture of what's happening but Mortze's actual picture is much better, and I change my text as a result. Sometimes I name an ancillary character, but when I see her, I feel that a different name is better (or, sometimes Mortze suggests a different name). And, sometimes, when Mortze creates the model for a character, she's so compelling that it forces me to make more story for her.

A few examples of that:
Serena in Saving Chloe. She was just supposed to be in one scene, but she was so striking that I added 2 more paths for her in that game and eventually wrote a whole other game for her.

Jen in Life Changes for Keeley. I added her scene late in production because I wanted to balance out the two paths a bit. But I liked the model so much that I brought her into the Elsaverse and made her the eponymous character in Chasing Beth.

Also, when we were getting near the end of Saving Chloe, we started talking about what we'd do next. Mortze sent me the image that plays after the credits, and I liked it so much that it lead entirely to Darkness Falls.

So, you can definitely say that my writing has been inspired by Mortze's work.

However, there have also been times when, for one reason or another, Mortze's image(s) didn't match my text, but I chose not to change the text. The most recent occurrence of that happened in Writing with Tara.

Tlaero

Thank you Tlaero for the glimpse behind the scenes... It's been a while since i played the omnibus and life changes for keeley (which was the first i played that made me think "Wow! AVNs can be like this?" instead of yay pretty pictures and hold ctrl), i will spend the next week replaying them with these new details in mind.

I'm too new as a dev to be able to answer that, as I'm still working on my first game. Tlaero is a beast who's done and finished a bunch of games, their response is what you're looking for. Ask me again when I have updates under my belt and have had to face that decision.

i look forward to your first project and hopefully you can revisit the question when you are on your 10th project, fingers crossed and wishing you success.


Now, the final question, at least for now and this can be for both of you. Would you rather your work appeal to a large audience (millions or even billions) but in a less memorable way, something like "Friends" or "American Pie movies"? And this is not in a negative way. Or would you rather it be life changing and super impactful to say, a 100 people total? Or finally would you have it be so thought provoking that pages upon pages of discussion fill the forums with constructive arguments and theories that you start to wonder if people are even talking about what you made because you could have sworn your story was simple and pretty straightforward? And just in case this result is in no way linked to your for-a-living - time and money are no object or obstacle.

 

[Tlaero]

I am fortunate enough to not need to make a living from this (though our games are Mortze's sole source of income, so I can't ignore the money entirely). Since I don't need them to pay the rent, I'm free to make games that I want to play, and I focus on that above large audiences.

I'd be happy if a lot of people enjoyed my games, but I'm not willing to make games I don't like to chase that kind of "success."

Since I'm doing story games about adults in a field driven by porn logic games about high school students, I don't expect to appeal to a large audience. (That said, the original "Getting to know Christine" has been played by a million people.)

I have had (a smallish number of) people tell me that my games have had a large (positive) impact on them. That always makes me extremely happy.

I'm pretty sure that if I had to actively choose between "popular but not memorable" and "super impactful to 100 people" I'd choose the latter. But, again, I'm not making that choice. My choice is to make games I personally enjoy. Everything else falls out of that.

All that said, I really enjoy people talking at length about my games. I used to get that more in the old days on Sharks Lagoon.

Tlaero

 

[Tlaero]

Thank you Tlaero for the glimpse behind the scenes... It's been a while since i played the omnibus and life changes for keeley (which was the first i played that made me think "Wow! AVNs can be like this?" instead of yay pretty pictures and hold ctrl), i will spend the next week replaying them with these new details in mind.

Thank you for playing! There have been a number of things in the Elsaverse since the Omnibus. Links to all of them are here:

You must be registered to see the links

Tlaero

 

[kotte]

All that said, I really enjoy people talking at length about my games. I used to get that more in the old days on Sharks Lagoon.

Tlaero

It's a pity that the game threads here on F95 so often become so toxic and so infantile. Otherwise I would love to discuss the games I like more in depth, both as in giving feedback, but I also enjoy the fan theories, the what-ifs and the non canon fantasies.

Some of the creators have a good athmosphere on ther discords, but they often have a very low signal to noise ratio there. And this thread is mostly a safe haven here on F95, but since it is about all story-first games, it wouldn't be nice to hog it too much about a single game.

 

[Finuee]

Thank you Tlaero for the glimpse behind the scenes... It's been a while since i played the omnibus and life changes for keeley (which was the first i played that made me think "Wow! AVNs can be like this?" instead of yay pretty pictures and hold ctrl), i will spend the next week replaying them with these new details in mind.



i look forward to your first project and hopefully you can revisit the question when you are on your 10th project, fingers crossed and wishing you success.


Now, the final question, at least for now and this can be for both of you. Would you rather your work appeal to a large audience (millions or even billions) but in a less memorable way, something like "Friends" or "American Pie movies"? And this is not in a negative way. Or would you rather it be life changing and super impactful to say, a 100 people total? Or finally would you have it be so thought provoking that pages upon pages of discussion fill the forums with constructive arguments and theories that you start to wonder if people are even talking about what you made because you could have sworn your story was simple and pretty straightforward? And just in case this result is in no way linked to your for-a-living - time and money are no object or obstacle.

First off, thank you for your kind words. Though, since it's all hand drawn, I'm betting it'd take me decades to release 10 games lol

Secondly, I would mostly answer the question the same way as Tlaero . I don't do AVNs for a living, which frees me up to do whatever I feel like. Which means I doubt any of the games I have in mind will appeal to many people, including the one I'm developing first. But I would obviously prefer to deeply impact ten people than to mildly entertain a hundred thousand. Who wouldn't?

And obviously I'd love for people to be so into something I made that they were pages upon pages of theories and discussion about it. Again, who wouldn't? That's a no brainer lol.

 

[Tlaero]

It's a pity that the game threads here on F95 so often become so toxic and so infantile. Otherwise I would love to discuss the games I like more in depth, both as in giving feedback, but I also enjoy the fan theories, the what-ifs and the non canon fantasies.

I obviously don't speak for all devs, but I will say that I would happily wade through the typical F95 noise to get posts like that. I definitely enjoy the fan theories, the what-ifs, and the non-canon fantasies.

Tlaero

 

[Pixillin']

Just played one of the most story focused AVNs I've played yet, Cross Realms. You could take out the sex entirely and it would still be worth playing - I liked it enough that I wrote a review for it based solely on the three chapters that are done so far (normally I wait until much later - or even after a game is complete). Rather than type it all out again, I'm just going to paste that review:

Just finished playing through this for the first time and am extremely impressed. It’s still early in development ( 0.3 ), so there is still plenty of opportunity for things to go wrong, but at the moment, it is an epic fantasy unlike any AVN I’ve played before. It is extremely story focused and so not the kind of game you want if you’re looking for a quick wank or any particular kinks. The relationships and the sex are a very slow burn. However, the art is fantastic, and the story is epic in scale. It has the feel of an old kung fu movie if the characters were using magic instead of martial arts. The story is extremely well written after you get used to all the talk about Qi, sects, levels, techniques, and realms. Each character (whom we’ve spent any time with) has their own unique personality and character arc. And unlike most harem games, the lis do not love the MC and want to fuck him because he exists and has a penis. Each relationship is distinct and progressing at different levels, and most of them have had only minor sexual interactions with him, or none at all. The story is an epic tale of gods, wizards, heroes, demons, and more at war with one another, and our hero (MC), and the crystal necklace his mother gave him before disappearing are the focal point of it all, but we (and our MC) don’t know why yet.

 

[GershGersh]

I am fortunate enough to not need to make a living from this (though our games are Mortze's sole source of income, so I can't ignore the money entirely). Since I don't need them to pay the rent, I'm free to make games that I want to play, and I focus on that above large audiences.

I'd be happy if a lot of people enjoyed my games, but I'm not willing to make games I don't like to chase that kind of "success."

Since I'm doing story games about adults in a field driven by porn logic games about high school students, I don't expect to appeal to a large audience. (That said, the original "Getting to know Christine" has been played by a million people.)

I have had (a smallish number of) people tell me that my games have had a large (positive) impact on them. That always makes me extremely happy.

I'm pretty sure that if I had to actively choose between "popular but not memorable" and "super impactful to 100 people" I'd choose the latter. But, again, I'm not making that choice. My choice is to make games I personally enjoy. Everything else falls out of that.

All that said, I really enjoy people talking at length about my games. I used to get that more in the old days on Sharks Lagoon.

Tlaero

I'm glad to hear you have had a taste of the three outcomes and now that just leaves the holy grail of outcomes- having a baby named after you, and you can finally retire; nothing left to accomplish.

Its so obvious i didn't even consider it, to make games you would enjoy playing. It makes a lot of sense as a starting point. i'd always believed that stories or art in general is an ethereal viral infection, and you're forced by some ghost to translate the unkown into the physical or you would die. Making things you enjoy is a much much better way to go about things.

Thank you for playing! There have been a number of things in the Elsaverse since the Omnibus. Links to all of them are here:

You must be registered to see the links

Tlaero

I dont know why i was fixated on the idea that you had stopped making games until i finished LCFK last night and got to the post scene. This has to be the most active retirement return run ever, looks like i have a helluvalot more games to play this week or maybe month... Yay!

First off, thank you for your kind words. Though, since it's all hand drawn, I'm betting it'd take me decades to release 10 games lol

Secondly, I would mostly answer the question the same way as Tlaero . I don't do AVNs for a living, which frees me up to do whatever I feel like. Which means I doubt any of the games I have in mind will appeal to many people, including the one I'm developing first. But I would obviously prefer to deeply impact ten people than to mildly entertain a hundred thousand. Who wouldn't?

And obviously I'd love for people to be so into something I made that they were pages upon pages of theories and discussion about it. Again, who wouldn't? That's a no brainer lol.

Hand drawn? Now i'm really looking forward to your game. You better have some reliable wrist guards for 10 years of games . At first, i thought the "deeply impact people" or "conversation magnet" would be the preferable outcome but i wonder if it might not become too much pressure and responsibility at least to you the creator. like it may take the fun out of it and you might start to prefer a high 5 and a nod instead of a thesis each time your work comes up.

____

Now, i dont want to hijack this thread to what seems to be more a development related direction, i may create one if the courage catches me just right. But thank you both so much for your answers and indulging my selfish curiosity. I didnt think i would get such wonderful insight when i first posted. I really appreciates you.

_____

In order to earn my keep here let me throw in a recommendation. Have any of you played DiscipleOfVirginia games- Of Birds And Bees and Holly Smiles At The End? They make me think there should be some sort of honorable mention section to the list for games that are well written, well paced, phenomenal art, but with an ever so slightly weird direction (If slight could be used to mean extreme). The bizarre, the strange, the absurd and maybe even the scary. These two games especially have a beautiful coherence to the incoherence- think David Wong, Carlton Mellick III and/or David Lynch.

 

[jufot]

I've been meaning to replay the entire Elsaverse since Past, Present, and Future was released, and I realised I had forgotten some major plot points.

I finally managed it over the last week or so. With months and years between games, it's easy to miss details that are relevant to the bigger picture. But when you read it all in a week, you notice a lot more, so I'd like to share some thoughts.

Before I start, though, this playthrough reminded me why I find Tlaero's couples so compelling. With rare exceptions, they always consist of an emotionally strong man and an even stronger woman. It remains true even if he saves her. It's a wonderful dynamic that's frequently missing from fiction.

Beware spoilers for the whole Elsaverse - games, short stories, novellas, even Patreon posts.

Spoiler

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If you have thoughts on any of this - especially disagreements - I'd love to read them

 

[Finuee]

I've been meaning to replay the entire Elsaverse since Past, Present, and Future was released, and I realised I had forgotten some major plot points.

I finally managed it over the last week or so. With months and years between games, it's easy to miss details that are relevant to the bigger picture. When you read it all in a week, though, you notice a lot more, so I'd like to share some thoughts.

Before I start, though, this playthrough reminded me why I find Tlaero's couples so compelling. With rare exceptions, they always consist of an emotionally strong man and an even stronger woman. It remains true even if he saves her. It's a wonderful dynamic that's frequently missing from fiction.

Beware spoilers for the whole Elsaverse - games, short stories, novellas, even Patreon posts.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

If you have thoughts on any of this - especially disagreements - I'd love to read them

I don't dare to open the spoiler as I haven't played the Elsaverse games yet. I find it so hard to find the time to play games...

 

[Tlaero]

I've been meaning to replay the entire Elsaverse since Past, Present, and Future was released, and I realised I had forgotten some major plot points.

Thank you Jufot! That was an incredible read! Thank you for taking the time to play all the games again and write such an insightful post.

Two quick comments:

Spoiler

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and

Spoiler

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Tlaero