Suggestion for a better way to support developers

[jamdan]

I agree with the general idea that most people do not realize how quickly their pledges add up. 20 dollars per month is 240 dollars per year. That's a fair amount of money to spend on most entertainment options, let alone an adult game that isn't even complete. I personally do not patronize any games during development. I don't have the disposable income to do that. But I'll probably donate for a month or two when their completed.

But most people also do not realize the money devs make, for the most part, isn't that much. You have outliers like Braindrop who make a ton for a fairly average game. You devs like Pinkcake, Evakiss, Philly and a several more who are the "basically professional" developers who make a lot too. Then you have the fallen giants, like ISCTOR, who are still making a ton despite likely being a milker these days.

But I'd guess that a solid 95% of developers make less than 5k. 95% of those developers probably make less than 2k. 2k per month is 24k per year. Most developers, if they live in a modern country, earn a minimum wage level income or lower. Especially if you go by per-hour pay.

None of this accounts for paying for assets, hardware and fees. Most developers lose money overall, their patron funding just keeps it manageable. And this feeds into it's self. Usually games become more complex as they develop, thus needing more assets, thus needing better hardware to keep the render times decent. And all this means they need more money.

If you want to actually make good money making these games, you need to be in the top 5% of earners. Everyone else is either a hobbyist or live somewhere that they can afford to not make much money.

 

[M$hot]

Idk, I always figured it as your 'pledge' being a tip, a gratuity as a way of saying 'I like what you do and how you do it, keep it up' much like you'd tip the waitress in the restaurant or casino. Then once the meal (game) is wrapped up the tipping you've done doesn't change the outstanding bill.

So $2 every time the waiter comes by and let's say $30 at the end for the overall experience. How the waiter behaves and the quality of service and quality of your meal will obviously impact if you tip, how much you tip and such.

Some people don't tip until the meal is done and only tip on the final bill and instead of 10x $2 tip, they add 1x $20 on top of the $30. Some people don't tip at all, some people dine and dash. What is a dev meant to do? They can control the quality of the food (within reason) and the speed at which it comes out of the kitchen (within reason), the rest is kind of up to the customers isn't it?

It is a loose but sorta symbiotic relationship as it is now. Chef doesn't have that much control on customer behavior and the customer likewise doesn't have that much control over the chefs behavior. Being a good consistent chef that makes tasty meals should hopefully earn them return customers, being a well tipping repeat customer should make the chef want to keep putting in the effort to ensure your meals are great.

You want control over a dev, pledge $2000 a month, you want control over a customer, kidnap their pet I guess. I don't see how your suggestion impacts any of that.

 

[moskyx]

The main point here is that OP is suggesting quite the full-rational analytic method to organize your pledgings at the same time he says he's suggesting it because pledgers are not analytic at all and tend to forget basic things like who they pledged to and how much they pledged. Which basically means his method won't be used by those he wants to use it, thus making it totally useless.

Not to mention all the side effects this may cause to honest devs, because why would they trust on your after-release promised tip? They have the same reasons to not trust in your word that you have to not trust in them being able to not scam/milk you, and that leads to the up-front monthly pledge system we have now. It's a compromise due to the lack of trust between the parts involved, as in any other business relationship. Without it, most devs will just give up the same way they are giving up now due to personal reasons or after realizing making a game is a way more complex and way less rewarding task than they initially thought, but with far less money and feeling less supported. Which is just sad, honestly. Sometimes a monthly subscription supports them more in terms of encouraging them, knowing there's someone out there waiting for their work, than what those crappy $5 do when they're getting just $100 per month -if they're lucky enough to get that sum (disclaimer: most aren't). Getting (potentially) $15 from that very same person after 3 months of work just doesn't have the same encouraging effect as they only see them after the work is done (and if that person don't forget to actually pledge as promised), and not while working. Even if they set up a per-release pledge system where you can sign up to show you're interested in their game without actually paying a dime until a new significant update is released, nothing prevents you from signing up and then quitting whenever you want before getting the update - you wouldn't get anything but the dev will lose an expected income he thought he'd get. And that's devastating both emotionally and financially. Never forget the psychological effect of this.

So, if this rational system works well for OP, nice - I'd even say most people, consciously or unconsciously, are currently doing the same thing on a monthly basis or whenever they decide to support some new dev or quit pledging. It's just every person has different budgets, different likings, different expectations and different tolerance limits. But the proposed system doesn't solve anything in the big scheme of things. Milkers are gonna milk but I didn't stop going to restaurants just because I was poorly served on some of them or even got food poisoned once. I just quitted those restaurants, not the whole thing. And maybe I become a little more cautious when choosing a new restaurant. That's all we need to do, really.

Honestly, I would be better off if people stop suggesting (patronizing?) other people how they should spend their own money.

 

[obibobi]

1. Start making the game.
2. Release clips and images to drum up interest for when it's finished.
3. When finished release a small demo.
4. Give the finished product to a small number of established people in the adult gaming scene to confirm the game is finished and legitimate.
5. Do pre-orders under the condition that the full game will only be released when a certain number of sales have been met.

Some people here would be upset with a dev that does this, but I would be fine, this is a pirate site, no right to complain about a dev protecting themselves against piracy, we will continue to get partially made games until we muster the self control and reward devs who release finished games.

 

[RomanHume]

Idk, I always figured it as your 'pledge' being a tip, a gratuity as a way of saying 'I like what you do and how you do it, keep it up' much like you'd tip the waitress in the restaurant or casino.

I know everyone is different and there is no consensus among supporters, but this is how I've always thought of my pledges to other developers. I like what you're doing, here's a few bucks to help offset your costs.

I'm not saying everyone needs to approach it that way, but it's how I think about it.


I mean, if we really want to be honest, people should tipping the shit out of Renpy Tom. He's the poor bastard upon the back of which we all stand. I chip him $25 bucks a month and if my game ever hits it big I'll not hesitate to jump into that $500 tier cause without his work and ingenuity I probably wouldn't have ever started doing this.

 

[RomanHume]

The main point here is that OP is suggesting quite the full-rational analytic method to organize your pledgings at the same time he says he's suggesting it because pledgers are not analytic at all and tend to forget basic things like who they pledged to and how much they pledged. Which basically means his method won't be used by those he wants to use it, thus making it totally useless.

Not to mention all the side effects this may cause to honest devs, because why would they trust on your after-release promised tip? They have the same reasons to not trust in your word that you have to not trust in them being able to not scam/milk you, and that leads to the up-front monthly pledge system we have now. It's a compromise due to the lack of trust between the parts involved, as in any other business relationship. Without it, most devs will just give up the same way they are giving up now due to personal reasons or after realizing making a game is a way more complex and way less rewarding task than they initially thought, but with far less money and feeling less supported. Which is just sad, honestly. Sometimes a monthly subscription supports them more in terms of encouraging them, knowing there's someone out there waiting for their work, than what those crappy $5 do when they're getting just $100 per month -if they're lucky enough to get that sum (disclaimer: most aren't). Getting (potentially) $15 from that very same person after 3 months of work just doesn't have the same encouraging effect as they only see them after the work is done (and if that person don't forget to actually pledge as promised), and not while working. Even if they set up a per-release pledge system where you can sign up to show you're interested in their game without actually paying a dime until a new significant update is released, nothing prevents you from signing up and then quitting whenever you want before getting the update - you wouldn't get anything but the dev will lose an expected income he thought he'd get. And that's devastating both emotionally and financially. Never forget the psychological effect of this.

So, if this rational system works well for OP, nice - I'd even say most people, consciously or unconsciously, are currently doing the same thing on a monthly basis or whenever they decide to support some new dev or quit pledging. It's just every person has different budgets, different likings, different expectations and different tolerance limits. But the proposed system doesn't solve anything in the big scheme of things. Milkers are gonna milk but I didn't stop going to restaurants just because I was poorly served on some of them or even got food poisoned once. I just quitted those restaurants, not the whole thing. And maybe I become a little more cautious when choosing a new restaurant. That's all we need to do, really.

You pretty much nailed it.

All that's being suggested here is an inverse of the existing relationship. Currently it's "Give me money and I'll make a game." and what is being suggested is "Make a game and I'll give you money."

So the dynamic doesn't change. All that changes is which of the two parties involved is making the leap of faith. Cause giving money to a dev that may or may not finish a game is on the same level as making a game for a customer who may or may not pay.

I wouldn't call that a paradigm shift.

Honestly, I would be better off if people stop suggesting (patronizing?) other people how they should spend their own money.

Bingo.

 

[Joshua Tree]

In addition to the fact that you are totally missing the point, look at the evolution of his

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. There's the usual drop at the start of the month, a drop that all creators have, but every month he's also getting new patrons.
The curve also prove you wrong, people know how to unsubscribe. Last year, he lost around 2.000 patrons. Near to a third of his base thought that he wasn't deserving it anymore. Then this year, because of the real lack of updates, he is loosing between 1.000 and 2.000 patrons each month, but in the same time, despite this real lack of updates, he is getting near to the same amount of new patrons.

I find and buy old games on gog.com and steam all the time. Pick up games on sales, whatever. Why should it be any different when it comes to creators on patreon on and their games (projects, whatever). Someone could download and play one of his old games like "Incest Story", and think; hey this is cool, and start pledge to him for that reason. A creators work doesn't expire on a set date. I would still be prone to tip the jar of a creator for a older game they made, or start follow a creator based on earlier work. And there is those that start pledge and follow based on their ongoing project, but doesn't necessary have a clear view of the state and progress, and thus you end up with a swing-door process.

I do think though that creators that experience a monetizing success with their work fall victim of a double edged sword. The chance of want to spend more time enjoy the fruit of your labor rather than spend every available time you have spare to keep trucking. Another thing is the chance of getting burnt out both mentally and physically is there. Just look at "normal" game industry and how they go into crunch mode nearing releases. Imagine have to be in crunch mode like every day, day in and out. The fall from grace, and turn from praised hero to a shunned villain when creating these type of games is a very short step.

 

[Joshua Tree]

1. Start making the game.
2. Release clips and images to drum up interest for when it's finished.
3. When finished release a small demo.
4. Give the finished product to a small number of established people in the adult gaming scene to confirm the game is finished and legitimate.
5. Do pre-orders under the condition that the full game will only be released when a certain number of sales have been met.

Some people here would be upset with a dev that does this, but I would be fine, this is a pirate site, no right to complain about a dev protecting themselves against piracy, we will continue to get partially made games until we muster the self control and reward devs who release finished games.

Not even creators of "normal" games can make such a model financial viewable. There is a lot of videos on youtube of indi devs describing their games. Funding, profit whatever. Bills need to be paid during working on the game. You want food on the table, you want electricity and roof over your head. That is why most indie devs have other projects and works going on beside their own creations. The model you describe can't support a development time that rival what we see most Patreon games does today.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I find and buy old games on gog.com and steam all the time. Pick up games on sales, whatever. Why should it be any different when it comes to creators on patreon on and their games (projects, whatever).

It isn't, and it's a good point that I missed. The Up and Down for someone like ICSTOR can partly come from this ; "he's not doing much lately, but I really like 'this previous game of his' that I just discovered, and for this he deserve two/three months of pledge from me".

 

[Joshua Tree]

It isn't, and it's a good point that I missed. The Up and Down for someone like ICSTOR can partly come from this ; "he's not doing much lately, but I really like 'this previous game of his' that I just discovered, and for this he deserve two/three months of pledge from me".

When people start claim creators should halt pledges and such, I find it's a difference between a creator that have one ongoing project under their belt, and another creator that can look back at several completed creations spawning more than half a decade.

 

[Cartageno]

Thats a terrible system. I never paid more than 10$ to any Dev. What I want are finished Games, so Devs should try to make the best possible Game and then release it (on Steam). Games can make a shit ton of money on Steam if they are more than generic garbage and that should be the motivation here.

Devs should not act any different than any Indie-Dev. I dont get why Adult-Games have these weird thing of "support". Fucking create a Game and publish it (in EA) on Steam. If its good, it will make money.

It's okay that you don't like it but why shouldn't other people do things differently? You can always search out the games which are finished and decide upon it. ($10 is a bit frugal though) I often buy games on Steam - also lewd ones though not right now since there is some lawsuit stuff going on and Steam took them down. But, when we look at that idea taken to the extreme

1. Start making the game.
2. Release clips and images to drum up interest for when it's finished.
3. When finished release a small demo.
4. Give the finished product to a small number of established people in the adult gaming scene to confirm the game is finished and legitimate.
5. Do pre-orders under the condition that the full game will only be released when a certain number of sales have been met.

Some people here would be upset with a dev that does this, but I would be fine, this is a pirate site, no right to complain about a dev protecting themselves against piracy, we will continue to get partially made games until we muster the self control and reward devs who release finished games.

this won't work. You put in years of work, even if mostly not full time, get worn down with the extra work, and can only hope that your regular job covers everything. You'd need to be very dedicated to do that without any real feedback on whether or not it will be in any way worth it in the end. (Not to mention the lack of feedback about bugs, things that could be done better and so on). This can only work if you have loads of cash to invest into computers and so on and don't care about the money at all. There's a reason why almost every larger indy game (to mention "like any indy-dev") will also have one of Kickstarter, Patreon, buy on Steam during development or similar - money is needed already before the product is finished.

 

[anne O'nymous]

This can only work if you have loads of cash to invest into computers and so on and don't care about the money at all. There's a reason why almost every larger indy game (to mention "like any indy-dev") will also have one of Kickstarter, Patreon, buy on Steam during development or similar - money is needed already before the product is finished.

An average Ren'py/Daz game cost probably around US$ 10.000, split between the assets, the computer to render them, and the electricity bill. Even if you decide to not have a dedicated computer for this, there's risk that you've to buy one... because you blew up yours by using it 24/24 (rendering when you're at works, working on the game the rest of the time). And this is assuming that you've a job to cover all the other costs in your life.
So yeah, it's not something that one can do as easily as it seem seen from the exterior. For most people it's something like 6 months of salary that you've to spend on your hobbit, and it's natural that they expect to earn some money from this, to cover at least a part of their expense.

 

[Joshua Tree]

An average Ren'py/Daz game cost probably around US$ 10.000, split between the assets, the computer to render them, and the electricity bill. Even if you decide to not have a dedicated computer for this, there's risk that you've to buy one... because you blew up yours by using it 24/24 (rendering when you're at works, working on the game the rest of the time). And this is assuming that you've a job to cover all the other costs in your life.
So yeah, it's not something that one can do as easily as it seem seen from the exterior. For most people it's something like 6 months of salary that you've to spend on your hobbit, and it's natural that they expect to earn some money from this, to cover at least a part of their expense.

if your graphic card goes POFF these days though, that could be quite a bit added cost..

 

[anne O'nymous]

if your graphic card goes POFF these days though, that could be quite a bit added cost..

Not just an added cost, it could also lead to a temporary downgrade if the card you want is currently unavailable ; what happen often these days. You can't just seat there, waiting days, or weeks, for it to be available. You'll take the best one available, and have to deal with it, until you can afford to buy yet another card, and the said card is available again.

 

[obibobi]

Not even creators of "normal" games can make such a model financial viewable. There is a lot of videos on youtube of indi devs describing their games. Funding, profit whatever. Bills need to be paid during working on the game. You want food on the table, you want electricity and roof over your head. That is why most indie devs have other projects and works going on beside their own creations. The model you describe can't support a development time that rival what we see most Patreon games does today.

What most Patreon devs is really not that impressive, almost always one guy working to support a game that is technically unimpressive and it's biggest selling point is the porn, situations like NLT can probably be counted on one hand.

But even if it was hard work, doesn't matter, finishing the product and then trying to sell it, that is the model, whether it's starting a new restaurant or making a game, it's up to those doing it to find the capital and if they do a good job, then they get customers, not supporting any Tom Dick and Harry who can make a nice 5 minute presentation.

My suggestion was just to use a form of crowd funding after unproven devs deliver.

 

[Cartageno]

What most Patreon devs is really not that impressive, almost always one guy working to support a game that is technically unimpressive and it's biggest selling point is the porn, situations like NLT can probably be counted on one hand.

But even if it was hard work, doesn't matter, finishing the product and then trying to sell it, that is the model, whether it's starting a new restaurant or making a game, it's up to those doing it to find the capital and if they do a good job, then they get customers, not supporting any Tom Dick and Harry who can make a nice 5 minute presentation.

My suggestion was just to use a form of crowd funding after unproven devs deliver.

And how is going to Patreon not "find the capital"? Because that is just what they are doing.

 

[Joshua Tree]

What most Patreon devs is really not that impressive, almost always one guy working to support a game that is technically unimpressive and it's biggest selling point is the porn, situations like NLT can probably be counted on one hand.

But even if it was hard work, doesn't matter, finishing the product and then trying to sell it, that is the model, whether it's starting a new restaurant or making a game, it's up to those doing it to find the capital and if they do a good job, then they get customers, not supporting any Tom Dick and Harry who can make a nice 5 minute presentation.

My suggestion was just to use a form of crowd funding after unproven devs deliver.

Would you work full time for a few months with no income in the hope you might get something trinkle in eventually? Or would you try get at least some trinkle in over time? There is indie devs of regular games that put their games on steam and maybe sell a few hundred copies.

 

[NTRlover795]

Indeed it does. But as you point out, it doesn't make them nearly as much money. Say a developer works hard for 3 months to get an update out, but with PPU (Pay Per Update) they would make a third of what they would have made, if they just charged monthly, even though they worked hard all those 3 months. Why wouldn't they want to be paid more for their work?

That's a easy solution for the developer. Lets use a hypothetical scenario here. Let's say a developer charges an average $10 a month for his highest support level, and he usually releases an update once every 3 months. All he has to do is set the PPU (Pay-per-update) fee at a balanced figure that benefits both those that support the developer and those patreons that don't want to pay the full amount each month, but still support him in some way. Probably $20-$25 PPU would be a good number

 

[toolkitxx]

Wow - i seriously missed one of the best threads - time to de-necro

Whatever has been suggested by several parties here - let's boil this down to how the facts suggest it should be boiled down to:

1. Someone decides to make a game - nobody is involved, nobody has any claims, all is well
2. Creator decides to monetize either the game or the 'creativity'

This is the important step that changes everything. This makes this a business contract. It creates expectations since there is an exchange of some value. It doesnt matter if it is for supporting ones 'creativity' or an actual product. This is where legal stuff starts trickling into everything.

There are several methods and models how this exchange can be done and the OP isnt wrong in suggesting another method aside from those that have been vastly popular with a lot of devs. There have been a lot of post talking about 'investing faith into the other side'. This is simply bullshit. Whenever there is financial gain for either side it becomes a business endevour and as such it has to follow some simple rules. Platforms like Patreon etc are popular for the reason of being able to collect money while staying anonymous - that is the actual problem between the 2 sides here. In a business situation both parties are usually known to each other since it effectively is a contract between 2 parties. The provider of a product or service is legally bound to provide certain minimum liabilities. This legal part might be different from region to region worldwide but base line wherever ones goes is pretty much the same.

Making donations is a completely different concept. It is meant to be a one-sided non-binding financial gain for one party. And this is basically what the OP addresses. Providing an unknown or anonymous entity with money for whatever purpose is -imho- the most stupid and naive thing one can do. It screams to be misused by shady and dishonest people and products. So this problem is a two.sided one that involves both parties on platforms like Patreon. Believing in truth, transparency and honesty while not knowing who is actually behind things is a problem also caused by the users and not just the creators.

Being a patreon is nothing new. It is a century old thing where the Patreon and the Creator knew who they where dealing with. That is not the same as the platform Patreon!
Financial exchange in its base requires 1 important feature: trust. Trust can not be build in an anonymous environment. It is one of the reasons why crypto currencies have not established themselves as everybody thought they would and why they still have the sense of being 'shady' to the majority.

So yes - the users are not right to just blame devs for using platforms like Patreon or Subscribestar to their advantage as they should know better than to trust into something that has no transparency at all.
And yes - users are also right to blame devs to take advantage of those platforms as only an idiot believes that it is all meant in good faith. It is not. As a business unit you are getting risk free income and of course make a solid business decision to take advantage of it. No amount of discussion can change that.

The system described in the OP is basically how things used to work and work for the majority of any similar industries in general. People either donate to a company/person to support their survival and ability to create something but they have no legal ability to demand anything concrete - the majority does know this. Or they pay for a concrete product/service that is well described and once delivered all obligations between those 2 are satisfied.

Choosing a financial instrument that effectively boils down to a subscription system with the ability to stay hidden/anonymous is simply the wrong instrument for any serious relationship.

 

[Jethro Hatfield]

Now I will just throw this little tidbit into the mix for thought.

You're discussing plans and propositions for funding a yet incomplete game, (or even the completed ones) on a piracy forum. Where yes, many games that are featured here get additional revenue from Patreon or other subscription services. On the other hand, think about it like this, one could simply argue that pirates shouldn't ever have to pay for anything as many here are just that. Pirates.

Now, do I agree with these thought processes? No. Not any more so any of the other points that have been delivered to date. I would simply say that if the banking method works for the OP, then let them utilize it to their own capability. Those that want to continue as they have and support devs monthly, let them do so as well.

As an American Dev living in the US, who also has a full-time job other than working on VN's, I would simply ask the OP this. Would you spend six months or more of your time working full time for me, with only a promise that at some point in the future when I feel like you've earned the money, I would pay you? I don't think you would. Regardless of the work being done.

So I will simply suggest to you this;

If you think that the Banking method of supporting your favorite projects is the right thing for YOU, please continue to employ this method. Others MAY find this method worth their time and effort. But please do not discredit the countless hours of work that goes into each "update" for a game. And comparing one dev's work to another is also a habit I would recommend kicking, as not every dev, whether it is one man or a whole team of devs, have their own opinions of what Quality is. For some quality is about the individual shot art, for some its the art of animation, and for even more its the storytelling aspect. Each has their own opinion about what the most important part of development is, and where their own strengths lie.

There are no real standards for quality of work in this particular sector. There is no manual or list of what "standard quality" is. Many of us are simply learning as we go, so comparing the quality of one dev to another is the equivalent of comparing theoretical physics to brain surgery. Sure both are extremely complicated processes but each one is its own specialty.

Now I offer a simple challenge to the OP. If you find issue with anything I have said today, pick your design studio for art, (Blender, Daz3D, or an Illusion product) a copy of the Ren'Py download, step into our shoes and create a unique game, and hold those that want to support you along the way to the same model you have suggested here.

Then, after you have accomplished this, and successfully created a high quality product, would you have any kind of weight to your suggestions about how other Dev's interact with their fans, or how their fans should support their favorite Devs.